Another visit to the LwL coffeehouse where all of life’s big problems are solved. Or people spout off to their online friends. Not sure which.
Today’s topic for conversation comes from a few similar requests I’ve received over the last few weeks, which boil down to:
How do I get over my limerent object when I can’t go no contact?
No contact is a powerful recovery strategy because debilitating limerence is best understood as addiction to another person. Addicts generally need to cut off access to their drug supply to have any hope of lasting sobriety. Unfortunately, when your drug of choice is another person, it’s rarely possible to completely control your exposure.
Even if you don’t have social or professional responsibilities that mean you have to make at least occasional contact, there is always the possibility of accidental contact. They are a free person after all.
In the case of one of my correspondents, though, it’s even worse. They work with their LO, like their job, and aren’t in a position to dictate their own schedule or who they work with. How, then, can they free themselves of limerence, while also being forced to frequently and unpredictably interact with the person who’s sent their reward circuits doolally?
I mean, imagine what it would be like for an alcoholic to have to periodically sample drinks as part of their job. It would be… testing.
Putting aside the hardcore option of finding a similar (or better) job, what practical steps might be taken? Well, there are a few options.
1. Limit contact as far as you can
Self-explanatory, really. Accept that you can’t control everything, but take heart in the fact that you can control some things.
There’s a risk that once you’ve admitted defeat, your sneaky limerent gremlin brain will exploit the opportunity to goad you into carrying on with business as usual. No point fighting it. In fact, while contact might be intermittent and out of your control (and therefore the worst kind of reinforcement), that doesn’t mean you just have to carry on with the same old habits and interpersonal dynamics. They did, after all, lead you into limerence in the first place.
Time for a change. Stop flirting, skip any unnecessary meetings, coffee breaks, socialising, and other sources of casual contact. Taper off contact as far as possible within your sphere of influence. Maintain professionalism, stay on the cordial side of friendliness, and avoid any fraternisation.
If you’re honest, that’s probably what you should have been aiming for anyway.
2. Cut indirect contact
Do you really need to text each other outside of office hours? Would waiting a while to respond to trivial emails send a different message about your receptivity to their attention? Do you need to be friends on Facebook?
Aside from emergencies, most employers accept that being constantly available for indirect communication is a not a reasonable expectation to have of their employees. Assert boundaries and cut indirect channels of communication to a minimum.
3. Cut passive contact
Passive contact on social media is a potent reinforcer of limerent reverie. If they are in your feeds, you’ll be occasionally surprised by adrenaline-jolting accidental exposure. Or, if you’ve already succumbed to the junkie habit of actively browsing for indirect hits, you’ll seek this source of contact whenever your mood dips. Yeah, time to stop it. Sorry.
This route for contact is definitely within your control, and there are technological fixes available if self-control is an issue. Muting, unfriending, filtering, blocking. You could even install apps that ration your access to the most addictive sites. It may seem a bit strict, but I guess the question is how badly do you want to recover?
4. Cut imaginary contact
Another major source of reinforcement is willingly immersing yourself in the imaginary worlds of your own limerent rumination. Mentally rehearsing or reliving LO contact, fantasising about how you could conceivably be together, imagining ways that you could potentially disclose your feeling to see how they would react – all these reveries feed your brain imaginary contact.
Fortunately, rumination is also within your control, even if it doesn’t always feel like it when the instrucive thoughts barge in and break your concentration. This is where deprogramming techniques can be most potent in overwriting the old reinforcing habits with new, corrective mental scripts helps put your executive brain back in charge.
If you do find yourself struggling to recover because there are limits on your ability to break contact, accept those constraints, but focus all your attention on the other channels of contact that are within your control.
Combining this principle with a high level goal of living a more purposeful life means that any unavoidable contact that is forced upon you becomes the last remaining source of limerence reinforcement.
When your energy and time is focused on freeing yourself of limerence and making a lasting improvement to your life, the bulk of your attention will be shifted away from LO. That’s likely to be decisive in the long run.
So, those are some thoughts for anyone in the position of not being able to go No Contact.
Now over to the LwL community: can anyone share some creative steps they’ve taken to manage contact in a similar situation?
While I cannot say I‘ve taken any creative steps, I can recommend taking another view on the matter.
It seems given here that contact reinforces limerence, but I experienced something opposite- when contact gets less I‘m prone to daydream more and create a an overlarge, overpostive picture of LO in my head.
When I have contact again, I can correct my picture as I can not only perceive the good sides, but also bad sides, flaws, annoying habits.
I recommend keeping eyes open for those signs that LO is still a flawed human being. Contact can reinforce, but also reduce limerence by a reality check not only on their personality or behavior or looks, but also on your real connection to them (when you are lucky, they behave colder than you might like etc).
I agree. I think NC can fuel limerence.
I’ve found the same thing. If I don’t see from or hear from my LO then I start to create fantasies in my head of this perfect person living a perfect life, with no room for me in it.
Making my own life as productive and goal-driven as possible certainly helps me to reduce my obsession, but I’m not sure NC is necessarily the way to go if I want to minimize thinking about them. It’s like telling something to try not think of a pink elephant. Dr L, I would love your thoughts on this.
It’s likely that the initial frenzy of no contact seems to make intrusive thoughts worse, but with true no contact and time, the limerence should decrease.
But that has only been my experience both times. I haven’t had the chance to compare to true long-term low-contacts; I am trying to prevent any more limerent experiences to compare it to.
I agree, when I spend more than a week away from LO I get even more obsessive and dreamy. When we work together I feel “normal” and tend to see them unfiltered. I suspect if I spent a long time away from them I would eventually get over them.
it is probably your sneaky brain trying to resist attempts to stop limerence. Ah, good old chap Brian, up to his sneaky habits again
I suppose for me an important thing is knowing my triggers. But sometimes the thing about triggers is once I noticed them it also made it easier to spot new potential limerent objects. They could have a tendency to backfire.
For example, once I deduced that I was especially susceptible to handsome, non-married, Hispanic men who appeared intrigued by me, I realized quickly that it made it easier to pick out those men. Now, instead of moving forward in limerence, I try to manage the prevention of potential future limerent experiences. I guess it’s an offensive approach versus a defensive approach.
I think part of not being able to go NC is accepting that there will be some relapses after any form of inadvertent contact, and not beating yourself up for it, and just patiently reducing contact again.
Context: I cut down indirect contact (texting especially), and LO cut down passive contact (this is very obvious through the way the algorithms responded). There was some imaginary contact, but it reduced. Real contact was inevitable every once in awhile, but I managed to keep it friendly but distant emotionally. It has been two years.
I recently had some very intense work with LO, which required us delving into each other’s work mind (oh, so brilliant, etc.) and then deep, intense discussions about the work itself, where we hashed out a solution together professionally (oh, we discuss things so well together, even when disagreeing, and the meeting of our minds produce such amazing product!) Result: we were feeling very friendly towards each other by the end of it, especially since we had drifted apart the last few months (due to deliberate LC on both our parts); we texted socially (indirect contact) which I had reduced hugely over the last few months and I was reminded how witty and mentally in tune we were (LO really is one of the people I am most intellectually in tune with). That and I am reminded how attractive LO is. Sigh.
All this just ramped up the imaginary contact again, especially since we will have another project which will throw us together intensely for DAYs in a couple of weeks time. This daydreaming dismayed me enough that I cut out the indirect contact (texting) completely for a few days ago, to try to regain my equilibrium. It IS getting better, but I expect when the next project comes along in a couple of weeks time, I am going to suffer a bit after.
So, this is the reality of a limerence situation where you cannot have the full monty. It is tricky. It is full of backsliding. You can know you have recovered, and then backslide. You need to accept it as a reality, and just patiently reestablish boundaries.
Since this is a Coffehouse,
an update from me:
@Bewitcheds post about Top Gun Maverick-
I’m bingewatching„Friends“ at the moment out of fear of sliding back into more thoughts about LO after making such good progress.
LO called me yesterday and I didn’t want to pick up (same fear), then called him back a few hours later. When he asked about my SO I gave spontaneously the phone to my SO (LO was a bit startled by that).They chatted quite nicely and I noticed LO telling him sth that he hadn’t told me, and asking him for advice on that.
Chatted some more with him and ended the call. I think LO is a bit grumpy now, judging after texts, but I don’t care much for that- I’m being friendly but nothing more and don’t initiate anything.
I think I‘m in the best place I’ve ever been since beginning of the LE, and I really don’t want to slide back.
I manage to see him in a very normal light and not to think about him.
I think he will leave, and I don’t mind.
I know that I shut some things out and might be in some sort of denial, but I think if I can keep this up long enough, it will be reality, since he will be gone in the future.
I know I will meet him some time in the future (week after next, I guess), and I hope very much to be in such a stable condition until then that I can regard him as a nice friend and good colleague who will sadly leave, but who‘s by no means irreplaceable. (Well, he is, as a colleague, I have to say. Have to be honest in that, but I still can say goodbye to that and know that the gap will close almost immediately.)
I avoid thoughts of him like hell, but I feel them trying to creep back. But I‘m quite confident this time that I can beat them back far enough to at least slide back very far.
To NOT slide back very far, of course
5. Give transference a try.
Transference is what worked for me.
lucky you! Transference won’t work for me, every time I try, I get an LE relapse and everything becomes miserable again.
My married LO works at my children’s school. I think reciprocation is possible but unlikely and we maintain fairly strict professional boundaries. We do have each other’s phone numbers and are connected on Linkedin but I am not a particularly active user.
I am not willing to pull my kids out of a school where they are happy, nor to explain to my SO why I would want to do that. My SO does a lot of the drop offs and pick ups but occasionally goes away for work, meaning I have to do everything. Also my kids would be very upset if I stopped coming to their sports matches, music concerts etc. This means that I sometimes bump into LO every day, and sometimes we don’t see each other for ages. Occasionally we need to have meetings and very occasionally we attend the same social functions but this is unpredictable. LO’s demeanour is also unpredictable – sometimes very professional and formal, sometimes standoffish to the point of being a bit rude and sometimes very exuberant and friendly. This has been commented on by other people.
The first week of academic holidays is always incredibly difficult and, as Mila said above, feels worse to start with, but as long as I manage to maintain NC it does get easier after that, until I have a complete relapse when term resumes. On more than one occasion LO has texted me towards the end of the school holidays, “just to see how I am”. I always reply but I do not instigate this.
I connect with LO on an intellectual level. I have met LO’s SO and like them. I don’t feel any jealousy and have no interest in ruining anyone’s marriage. I acknowledge that LO and I would make a volatile couple which is not what I want in a relationship. I have identified a couple of glimmer triggers but at this point that’s not helpful.
I think my particular difficulty is the unpredictability of any contact. If anyone has any ideas of how to manage this better, I would be grateful.
Thank you
Dr L is spot on for this blog post. At least for my situation. I could be the poster child for this. Not only is LO a coworker but I am her employer and manager in a small office and have to interact with her multiple times a week making the situation quite tricky.
I have been practicing all the 4 points for some time. For various reasons I cannot pursue LO for a more personal relationship or even really be casual friends with her so very limited contact is my best strategy. I find it stabilizes my mood the most and keeps my brain from going on rumination overdrive. Is it beating limerence? Maybe not yet, but it’s certainly managing it better.
One of my unique challenges as I disengage from LO is not to seem cold to her as her boss. I don’t want her feeling discouraged in her job. LO and I have the tendency to banter well and have it feel flirty but bantering with her is a trigger for me and I prefer to stay away from it now. As a result I have become a boring in my interactions with her, but I stay focused on maintaining politeness with her as best as possible. So far she seems indifferent to my personal disengagement with her.
Right now my emotions are fairly grey, still with waves of sadness and anger. I am very much in the loneliness phase of no contact. But I am resolved to push through and see this out and hope that my romantic desire for LO fades over time or better yet, circumstances change and I could be full NC.
Hi Speedy, as I like to call you. I immediately thought of you when I started reading this weeks blog from Dr. L. You are maybe the best person to comment here, so I’m so glad you commented !
I’m not sure what else I can say that I havent already, except maybe to try to do new things …..it really helps. New goals, new interests. Do something that excites you …. Best wishes always
Hi Speedwagon, I appreciate your posts. As for the grey emotions, I relate to this. It’s been 5 weeks since I threw my hands at this limerence and went NC (with slip ups). At first, and even before that, without the “hit” of contact, I couldn’t feel the color in life (likely one of the times we limerents are vulnerable to the glimmer). After NC started, that got even worse. I am still deep in pain but each week there is a bit more “life” to my own life. Keep going. This weekend I kept myself very busy, and though the sadness crept in last night, I had to remark on the fact that I had 2 days without much of that feeling.
Now if I could just stop looking for him when I ride the train to work!
In my limerent case I found the imaginary contact the hardest to break. Knowing that she moved on from the job and to another part of her life with the young man she was with, it was easy to be rational and leave any contact to her. I wanted her to be happy in life. So maintaining NC was not all that difficult.
Social media has reared it’s ugly head a few times for me, but being I don’t use it much myself personally, it wasn’t too difficult to realize it wasn’t going to do anything for me.
But imaginary contact. I almost wonder if that can ever be completely abolished. I have certainly come a long way in the two years she’s been gone. But sometimes something reminds me and I have to actively remove the thought. I have learned to distract myself with other things.
I have often wondered about Miss Lovisa’s much fabled transference. I am not sure it would help. It seems like trading one problem for another. If one were single I could see it working. If I was indeed limerent for my first love way back when I was 20 I could see transference working. Certainly more healthy than the route I took to try and forget her.
Adam, you made me laugh when you said,
“ I have often wondered about Miss Lovisa’s much fabled transference…”
Transferring my limerence from LO2 to LO3 is how I escaped the dreadful intrusive thoughts. I didn’t think transference was a good idea at first, but I became quite desperate when NC caused the intrusive thoughts to get worse. I transferred with the idea that I wouldn’t let myself daydream about LO3 which I managed alright (not perfectly but alright). It worked!
Two years later and I have healthy relationships with both LO2 and LO3. I am not limerent for anyone. Whew!
I think I have inadvertently found my transference. A friend of my sister in law that came when my wife’s family came into town back in March. She is divorced from an abusive marriage and yeah it triggered my rescue complex. But she is a very accomplished and independent woman that owns her own business. She’s stunning, fun and sweet. I was so glad to meet her. She’s about 10 years older than me. I have to figure she’s only still single by her choice. I don’t think it’s limerence again because thoughts of her aren’t intrusive. But I love to be in her company. My brother in law (her husband) gives me, jokingly, grief about how I play protector when I do see her. She thanked me for being such a gentleman when we all went out on a Saturday night and I gushed. Not gonna lie. Women in peril; addicted more than alcohol.
Sounds great, Adam! There is nothing wrong with enjoying the company of another person. Maybe you should consciously think of ways to keep this new relationship healthy for everyone.
Let’s talk about boundaries. What kinds of interactions are you and Momma comfortable with? I’ll share some of my boundaries to give you ideas…
I can have male friends. I can spend time with my male friends as long as I talk to my husband about it. I cannot spend time alone with a male friend if I am wearing a swimsuit. I can give a greeting-hug and a goodbye-hug as well as normal contact like helping each other climb a boulder. I can text my male friends (sorry Speedwagon) because it is the only way to maintain friendships since I don’t see them in my everyday life as a housewife. To prevent a relationship from becoming inappropriate, I check in with myself to make sure that most of my emotional intimacy needs are met by my SO. All of my sexual needs are met by my SO ALWAYS. I am not willing to compromise on the physical stuff. ALL physical stuff happens with my SO. A few other things that I won’t do is meet up with a male friend without telling my husband. I won’t engage in negative talk about spouses (but of course there is nothing bad to say about my SO). Hmmm, I can’t think of anything else, but I know there were more boundaries on my list.
My overall goal is to be a good friend. I want to uplift and encourage all of my friends to do good things. I want to be a good influence.
It’s your turn to tell me how you can enjoy this new woman’s influence without causing problems for anyone.
You got this, Adam!
Miss Lovisa
Momma has said nothing about our night out, all four of us, together. She stayed at the hotel that night to stay with our nephew so her other sister and husband could have some alone time together. I think she would have went with us on our night out otherwise.
I have not contacted her since. Though I did talk to my sister in law this past weekend and asked her to convey to her friend that I had a good time with her and that I looked forward to them all coming to visit again since we had such a fun time together. I suggested that we do some karaoke together lol
As I mentioned in another post, when we (my wife, my son and I) left to go home, she did give me a hug which is a bit personal to me, but Momma didn’t seem to mind. Lots of her family gives me hugs whether I am comfortable with them or not lol
When we got home Sunday night I was telling Momma about our Saturday night out together and I told her how one time she forgot that she left her umbrella at a previous restaurant that we were at. I was walking ahead with my brother in law and when I looked back she was gone. I asked “where is she?” My sister in law said “she left her umbrella at the restaurant” So I hauled back to catch up with her so she wouldn’t be alone. I got there just in time to open the door for her and retrieve her umbrella for her. My wife told me that after her getting out of her abusive relationship that she took multiple defense classes to protect herself. Momma teased me she would be protecting me more than me protecting her lol Good times.
I have looked at her Facebook being that she is friends with a lot of people in my wife’s family but have never commented. In fact her latest post was about a dog that my sister and brother in law had some time back, when our boys were very young that has since passed. I want to keep it a friendship just like I would with any other woman that would be in my wife’s family.
That makes sense, Adam. Keeping it as a friendship is a good approach.
I think for me, transference might be im/possible. I seemingly get attracted to others, but it is hard for me to transfer from my LO to some person. cutting off IC is very difficult, especially since almost everything reminds one of one’s LO.
Adam, oh no, we seem to be in the same situation now with our inadvertent transference! How are we doing on the purposeful living when this happens, hmm? 😉 I suppose if one had read your recent stories more carefully, one could have noticed this one coming… Watch out for those damsels! That’s a good sign though that there are no intrusive thoughts. That’s the main thing I was trying to avoid as well when I was looking for distraction/transference. And I don’t seem to have the thoughts now either.
This movie quote reminded me of my current situation (wanting to be rescued from an LE, but well…)
Him: So what happened after he climbed up the tower and rescued her?
Her: She rescues him right back.
And we all know the movie!
I don’t 🤔
Mila, how about this quote from the same movie:
Her: You work on commission, right?
Snobby saleswoman: Ah, yes.
Her: Big mistake. Huge!
If you don’t recognize this one, I don’t think you’ve seen the movie – and would slay in a game of “never have I ever”. 😀
Oh of course!
But don’t remember the „tower“ quote. I actually don’t remember much apart from this shopping scene, something I always think of when browsing in a posh boutique…
I don’t know the movie. None of that rings a bell 😛
*takes a drink, winces because it’s early in the morning. Serial Limerent wins this round.
It’s Pretty Woman. The tower scene is the end scene where she is in her apartment window like a princess to be rescued.
Oh, that one. I saw it, but that was YEARS ago. 🙂
Trifles
“Watch out for those damsels!”
It is my weakness. Even when they don’t need a knight lol
Purposeful living is going well. I am finding much purpose in going to church service and other activities. It is giving me not only distraction and purpose from limerence but also my bad drinking habits. So it is doing me good. I had the day off yesterday to take my wife to the doctor in the morning. Most of the afternoon and evening I spent time watching really bad science fiction movies on amazon prime lol I am a product of my father’s family who all liked science fiction.
My favorite movie quote …
“It really gets my goat when guys rough up dames.” Marv — Sin City
Adam, so good to hear that you are doing well and that sticking with the church is working for you! I stand corrected. I was mainly mocking myself about the purposeful living. And I’m also fine and out of the misery of intrusive thoughts. We can’t be claiming – or always afraid – that any new friendships with people of the preferred sex are automatically going to turn into limerence. Besides, we know better now.
How fitting that your favorite quote is about chivalry!
Here’s another quote that serves as a warning for limerents. From Poor things (practically anything that came out of Mark Ruffalo’s mouth made me laugh).
Duncan: You’ve made me become the very thing I hate. A grasping succubus of a lover. I’ve pried many of them off me and now I’m it – F*#k!
Less than 2 weeks since my last post, and LO and I have already completed another hot/cold cycle! I think it’s a new speed record for us… We spent the last 2 weeks texting pretty much every day, all day in some cases, really warm and affectionate. Last Monday she texted me that wanted to stop by my office after work to talk in private and I actually got really scared about what might happen if we were alone together, and I made an excuse so we couldn’t meet. Last Tuesday we were together for an hour in a small group setting and afterward she texted and asked me why I seemed nervous around her – I told her it was because I was scared of letting myself feeling close to her again knowing that any moment she might change her mind and go cold again and I didn’t want to keep getting hurt, and asked if we could call time out and talk (I didn’t mention that I was also kind of scared that she’d make a real move on me and I wouldn’t be able to resist, but that was part of it too – it just seemed too weird to say it like that but maybe I should have).
She said ok and that she had so much she wanted to tell me because she’d really been thinking about our relationship and that’s why she’d wanted to see me the day before and that I shouldn’t be nervous about seeing her, so we agreed to meet during her break that afternoon, but then she didn’t show up when we were going to talk and had some unlikely excuse for not showing up, but then she came by my office for a minute at the end of that day and started by saying that she didn’t have time to really talk before going to pick up her kids but she just wanted to see me for a minute, and she gave me the warmest hug ever, she wouldn’t let go of me for a long time and just wanted to snuggle in and savor the closeness until I finally broke away and said we really needed to have that talk this week and she promised we would, but then we spent the rest of that night and the next couple days texting constantly about all kinds of things but avoiding the real conversation. On Thursday she finally used that spa day certificate I gave her last year and she said it was the most amazing thing ever and made her feel so nice, and then Friday she started avoiding me and she completely shut down again and stopped responding, yesterday she didn’t respond to my texts and completely ignored me when we were working in the same public work area for a few minutes and wouldn’t even look at me, and today I called it out and texted her to asked if we could talk and she did the whole “there’s nothing to discuss, everything’s fine, we’re just friends, we don’t need to talk all the time” and I responded something about how I knew this was coming but at least the last 2 weeks were nice and she said that was too harsh and I ended up apologizing and that’s that and now I feel like crap and she probably does too and it just sucks.
And I know I only have myself to blame at this point because I know exactly what’s going to happen every single time I let myself feel close and connected with her, that sooner or later she’ll wake up one morning and decide it’s too close and just instantly withdraw all the warmth and closeness and then make me feel like I’m crazy for thinking something’s wrong. But I still just keep falling back into it because it just feels so nice when we’re warm and close, and I just keep telling myself that somehow it’ll be different this time, that we’ll be able to achieve consistent warmth without going overboard, and really I know it’s just never going to happen and I need to just let her go and try to stay as far away from her as I can and not get sucked back in. And at the same time I know damn well that if she called me right now I’d take her call and be so happy to talk to her and would dive right back into it without reservation. And I’m so sick of myself for it. Why can’t I just be happy with my regular life and my SO and with myself? Sorry this is a pointless post, I’m sure you all are sick of my endless repetitions as well and everyone here can see that I need to be strong and go NC with her and get it over with. And probably also that I was dangerously close to starting a PA last week and it’s actually a really good thing that she went cold again and I should be grateful. I actually feel really embarrassed writing this whole story out because I know how wrong it all is and how stupid I’m being, but I guess I still need to write it and take some criticism and tough love.
It’s just so crazy-making when someone can be so warm and affectionate and texting you a hundred times a day for weeks and then all of a sudden just flip a switch and cut off everything with no warning… is it just me and my issues that make me so bothered by this? Or would this royally mess with everyone? I know she’s explained to me why she does it and it all makes sense and I have to respect it and actually be really grateful for it for keeping us from going too far, but I really just wish she could communicate with words instead of silent treatments and just text me something like “hey, I feel like we need a break, let’s take a little time apart and I’ll let you know when I feel ok talking again” and I’d be a lot more ok with that than just the sudden stonewalling with no warning. But I also know that she gets totally overwhelmed with her own feelings and doesn’t do it to hurt me or mess with me, she just literally can’t act any other sort of way when she’s in that state and she’s already explained it all to me and there really is nothing else to discuss because we both understand everything already and know how utterly hopeless our situation is.
So I guess I’ll just say that for anyone who thinks that disclosure will make things better or that there’s such a thing as a “controlled emotional affair” or that it’s somehow possible to maintain a boundaried friendship when there’s mutual limerence… I mean, I guess you can try it and maybe it’ll turn out better for you if you happen to have a more emotionally level LO who can communicate better, but my experience is that there’s a lot of pain in between the good feelings and also a lot of danger lurking and at this point I’m actually feeling kind of hopeless that this is going to be my life forever and I’m never going to get out of these cycles.
Lost in Space,
Have to head off to work but just wanted to say I’m so sorry. I really feel for you. This kind of situation and LO would mess with anyone’s head big time. A bad god of limerence couldn’t create a better (or worse) behavior for keeping limerence alive.
„ I’m actually feeling kind of hopeless that this is going to be my life forever and I’m never going to get out of these cycles.“
Maybe you should let that sink in for real and it gives you the strength to change something for good? Your LO doesn’t seem able to change anything. Maybe you should get out of the „we“ and more into „I“ don’t want this anymore.
It just occurred to me, do you think she might want a real relationship with you, ditch her husband and get together with you, and the thing that holds her back is your happy marriage?
That would explain the bad struggles she seems to have and why she herself is not able to end it.
Mila, some things I’m certain about:
1) She fantasizes about us being together for real and forever
2) she fantasizes about me rescuing her from her unhappy life with her SO
3) she struggles with sexual desire/temptation and worries about “losing control of her behavior” with me
4) she feels really guilty about having these fantasies and desires but she struggles to control them
5) she would absolutely HATE herself if she broke up my marriage or started a PA with me.
I know all of these things because she’s told me them and because they fit with her actions.
What I don’t know is if she would actually leave her SO for me if I was somehow magically available – she is really bonded to him despite everything and feels a lot of obligation to be loyal to him, so I’m not sure if she could actually bring herself to make the change – but she definitely fantasizes about it a lot… has for the past year and a half for sure and possible quite a bit longer.
So yeah, she’s incredibly conflicted and confused about her own feelings. I remember Limerent Emeritus told me one time, and I forget the exact words, but something like “a complicit LO is bad. A complicit LO who doesn’t know what she wants is worse”.
And you’re right, and Bewitched is right, I need to focus on what I want and need (and even better, what my poor innocent SO needs!), and not what LO wants and needs, because she doesn’t even really know what she wants and she’s not going to be the one to ever put an end to this and I can’t lay that expectation on her.
Dear LiS,
I think you need to experience the Death of Hope in this LE, which is not just for reasons of barriers, but also because of all the reasons you outlined above. Maybe read the Death of Hope blog again?
When the LE is mutual, there are a whole load of possible scenarios and I believe that it is more difficult to let go of hope. This isn’t doing you any good and you have known and made peace with that, but unfortunately, you haven’t been able to legislate for the other person involved and what they are going to do next. The fact that she’s done what you knew she would, may provide resolve to move forwards. I have found that resolve really does mean hardening my heart. I have been doing good with that, only to be thrown for a loop when my LO (with whom I thought I had an understanding), went and did something unpredictable. He probably doesn’t realise that it affects me so much, but that’s just got to strengthen my resolve even more now. I am visualising him out of my life and almost disappointed when he appears back in it.
Mila was right, I think with her advice that “Your LO doesn’t seem able to change anything. Maybe you should get out of the „we“ and more into „I“ don’t want this anymore.”
Hi Bewitched, thanks for that suggestion, I just re-read the Death of Hope blog and it’s a really good one. I know I’m still caught up in hope that there can be some sort of good future for LO and me, my impossible fantasy where we have this forever relationship that’s warm and loving and supportive but it never goes “too far” and no one ever gets hurt. And I know intellectually that it’s pretty close to impossible; I really do know that but I’m still not accepting it at gut level.
You’re right also that finding resolve means hardening the heart towards LO, and that’s SUPER hard for me to do… she just triggers so much inside of me to want to be her protector and rescuer and supporter, and she’s told me so many times about how my support is the only thing that keeps her going sometimes and keeps her from giving up on all her dreams and how there’s no one else in her life who really cares about her, so that just makes it almost unfathomable for me to be the one to impose NC on her. Half of me feels like NC is the only way out for both of us, and the other half of me feels like I could never abandon her like that and I have to find a way to keep being there for her when she needs me even if it means lots of personal suffering for myself sometimes. How do I get past these intense feelings of obligation toward her? Is hardening my heart towards her really the right thing to do?
Hi LiS,
We all know that NC is the only way. NC is inevitable as you have prioritised your SO and your LO is not strong enough to help out, so you’re going to have to engineer that. I actually think that the solution might be mental rather than physically stopping seeing her, talking to her, or texting – although that is hard – you’ve already had some practise and just need to practise a little more.
As a step along the way to NC, how about detach with compassion. What I mean is not to abandon LO – let her continue to draw support from you, in theory, but harden your heart towards focusing on and visualising the direction forward in a way that she doesn’t perceive. For instance, you will need to deny your heart the highs (and the lows) of this EA. You will need to mentally pull back from her as someone who you can support but who is causing a degree of pain when you allow her into your emotions. While your rescue of her may be something you feel you cannot suddenly reverse, at this stage, slow mental detachment on your part is healthy for you both.
The truth is that she *is* a complicit LO and that’s bad. She shouldn’t have said that you are the ‘only one who believes in her’ as its putting down too much pressure on you to remain that person in her life. She needs to get herself another support system and that’s maybe going to happen gradually if you let her. For your own wellbeing, you need to feel that you are moving forwards and can live without her and that takes a bit of practise. I believe that you can do it because you had already been doing great, initially, before she reacted to the NC/LC attempt. Re-establish that feeling but without any big announcement. Make those changes internally. Its a bit like Speedwagon or myself or Mila – seeing the working colleagues in a different light. ….
„5) she would absolutely HATE herself if she broke up my marriage or started a PA with me.“
As much as I would recommend (and have recommended) just thinking for yourself, maybe it helps you to think that it would be for her benefit as for your own to put a stop to this EA.
Because you are now (that she admitted to her urges and started to try to see you alone etc) always in danger to cross some lines, and if that happens, it would not only have repercussions for your marriage and family but she would hate herself and her life would be more miserable. It would end fantastically bad for both of you.
So, if you feel an obligation to her, reducing your contact would be taking care of her, too.
Although I have to say, I hate this line of thinking since it’s a bit patronizing.
I just thought it might help with the feeling that you abandon her.
„Re-establish that feeling but without any big announcement.“
I‘m not sure about that.
(I don’t mean, no, don’t do that, I really mean I‘m thinking about it.)
It seems a bit cruel and behavior like hers, going imperceptibly colder but not explaining it.
I mean it’s not like with my LO who doesn’t want or cannot talk openly about emotions. I tried to open a conversation here and there, and he always shied away, so I don’t feel any obligation to explain any reduction of texts or similar to him (not anymore).
But she bared her soul to him, basically, and although I don’t like her hot/cold thing, I feel a bit for her.
Maybe just make it clear again that she’s very important for you and she can always count on your help and open ear, but nothing else, since it will hurt her and you in the long term, and that meeting alone etc is out of the question for now.
And if you think you cannot toe this line and need NC, she has to understand that too and not sabotage it again immediately.
Also, Bewitched, how are you? I‘m very curious what your LO did but don’t dare to ask since it might be too much information revealed for you.
Hey Mila,
Thanks for asking. I don’t want to say too much that might identify me. I felt stronger today than I have done for a while because I had a few hours where I actually thought I could detach without resenting him I need to remember that feeling and channel it. If your experience has taught me something it is that feelings can really change on a dime and that although we can go through ages of little or slow progress, sometimes there is a great big jump in progress.
I had been feeling flat but resolved all along. The LO actually did something nice but I thought we had an understanding. And it sort of showed that we were on a different page, like he doesn’t recognise the understanding that I thought was there. Or maybe he just isn’t a limerent and can casually invite me to things without realising that it makes things hard for me. Or maybe he is an attention seeker and a user and he does understand but is doing it anyway (up until now I thought him more sensible). I really don’t know. But you said to me last week that I should try not to blame him as he is probably oblivious (can he be though?). Sorry I am being a bit vague. Things are progressing in the right direction overall, I suppose \_(“)_/
PS Another possibility for LOs behaviour is that he feels “I am over this, let’s go for coffee!”
Or, that he has transferred to a new LO. I feel like if he had done the latter, it would be a relief because then I really would get over him once and for all.
I guess the moral of the story is not to rely on LO to help get oneself out of an LE. I mean they can do, but not always.
Hi Bewitched,
what I meant is not necessarily that he is oblivious of everything, but that his perception might be differently hued, and that his reactions to events/feelings might differ from how you react in a similar situation, also his view of what you feel or think might be wrong🤷🏻♀️very many possibilities why he did what he did…
„ I guess the moral of the story is not to rely on LO to help get oneself out of an LE. I mean they can do, but not always.“
That’s so true. I have to say that my LOs always „helped“me to get out of the LE by not behaving the way I wished them to behave, by being more realistic than me, etc.
I‘m eternally grateful to my LO2 because I was very besotted and would have risked a lot, and he saved me from myself by always staying a bit out of reach, never initiating inappropriate stuff and nudging me in direction of my SO, while it was still clear that he liked me a lot and would have acted different, would I have been single. He acted respectfully and I respect him for that.
But you sound quite determined! You might have made a big step forward, as you said. Sometimes it seems like a sudden big leap, but I guess there was some work going on inside us in the meantime. Or it’s a matter of timing, the right thing occurring in the right mindset?
I don’t know.
It sounds like he invited you to something, will you attend this or decline? If this is not too much information revealed. Please don’t tell if you don’t want to.
Hi Lost in Space, I hope you’re doing well. I started a new training program yesterday with one of the virtual coaches on Garmin. I finished my last training cycle that was also guided by a Garmin virtual coach last week. It went so well that I’m back for more. My 14-year-old and my husband are signed up for their first half marathons at the end of the summer. My daughter wants me to run with her at her pace so I have to put a lid on my pride and prepare to hold myself back. It will be hard not to compete when I’m surrounded by other runners. I kind of wish she and I could do the course with just the two of us at her pace because it would be so much easier for me to keep it at a slower pace. She is grateful that I can keep up with her so she doesn’t have to run it alone. I’m grateful for that, too. I’m also proud of her ambition. She is on the track team but she does field events so running isn’t her passion, but she still likes to participate in races. My SO has done the half marathon distance a few times, but this will be his first official half marathon race. He isn’t worried about it because he knows he can finish it and he doesn’t get competitive like I do. He can’t keep up with our 14-year-old which is why she wants me to run with her. At her last two races, she was supposed to stay with her running buddies, but she got competitive and ran off without them. That’s why I’m supposed to run with her. I’m the only person who can out run her.
Anyway, I read through your update and I have some thoughts about it. I hope it’s okay for me to share.
You said,
“I didn’t mention that I was also kind of scared that she’d make a real move on me and I wouldn’t be able to resist, but that was part of it too – it just seemed too weird to say it like that but maybe I should have.”
Don’t tell her that you are afraid that you wouldn’t be able to resist an advance from her. You were right to avoid putting yourself in a situation where you would have been vulnerable to her advances. Don’t second guess yourself, you handled that situation well.
I’m tired of her hot and cold behavior. When she is warm, you are getting some of your emotional needs met by her. That is a responsibility in my opinion. If she isn’t willing to be a consistent friend to you, I don’t think she should ever be overly warm. The hot and cold is unfair. She wouldn’t get away with that behavior with a girlfriend and she knows it.
This statement from her makes me angry, “there’s nothing to discuss, everything’s fine, we’re just friends, we don’t need to talk all the time”. I probably shouldn’t think these things, but what comes to my mind is, “No wonder her marriage is bad. She probably tortures her SO in similar ways.” Sorry to insult your LO, but I am very annoyed with her behavior right now.
Okay maybe I’m not so angry at her. You said, “ I was dangerously close to starting a PA last week…”. If she went cold to prevent a PA, she actually did the right thing. Gosh, this situation is crazy difficult! I wish you two could just enjoy a healthy friendship, but I’m not so sure that you can. Ugh!
Your last paragraph makes me want to give you a big hug. I hope things get better for you. Are you training for anything? Do you have something fun coming up? We have some camps scheduled and I CAN’T WAIT to get outside into the wilderness! I love the outdoors so much! If we lived closer, I would take you on a trail run to cheer you up. Of course, I would get permission from our spouses first.
„This statement from her makes me angry, “there’s nothing to discuss, everything’s fine, we’re just friends, we don’t need to talk all the time”. “
I‘m with Lovisa here, in spite of all sympathy for her situation. How can she throw around this idiotic phrase after all you talked about and all she knows how her behavior hurts you. It doesn’t sound completely sane, to be honest.
Hello again Lost in Space, I had a chance to read the comments from Bewitched, Limerent Nurse and Mila. They are all right. You have a team of ladies who are trying to look out for you. It sounds like us LwL ladies unanimously agree that your LO’s hot and cold behavior is annoying and frustrating.
Lost, I think it’s time for YOU to decide how YOU will behave no matter what your LO does. I have a few suggestions…
Lost in Space will NOT initiate casual contact with his LO. He will only initiate business contact.
Lost in Space will be polite when LO initiates contact.
Can we start there?
Lost in Space – Add me to the list of ladies trying to look out for you.
You are clearly a highly intelligent person with much to offer to the world. You are spending a lot of mental and psychic energy on something that really has only one solution. Unless you are willing to blow up your entire life for LO, you know what the solution is. Let her go and find peace.
brooooooooo.…where did the commas disappear off to?
It’s nice to meet you, Avik CR. I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your comment.
Hi lovisa,
If you notice carefully- or not so carefully- you will notice that LiS’s comment is missing a lot of – all of – the necessary commas. just wanted to point that out. It feels to me like some 12 yr old from diary of a wimpy kid narrating his life story without pause.
buuuuuuut it’s probably just his way of adding emotion to the text.
Hi LiS,
I know how difficult mutual limerence/attraction can be. I understand your pain and your internal conflict.
Have you had this happen before? I have had similar situations happen — twice — before I learned what limerence was. If the other person isn’t getting the “hint” that they need to back down or back out gracefully, then it is you’re job to place the boundaries. The boundaries of no contact, or in your case, low contact. And assume it may take up to a YEAR or maybe LONGER to get over the frenzy of withdrawal.
This is spiraling into a potential physical affair, and I know you both would regret it after the fact. Protect yourself. Protect your wife and children (if you have children.) You have already explained yourself. She is obviously co-dependent on you, but you must cut off the supply, even though it is so painful.
It will feel worse than you can imagine — but there is life and peace after an emotional affair, or a mutual limerence experience! I promise! But it may take a long time. 💙
Hi Limerent Nurse,
No, I’ve never experienced this before, not nearly to this degree. I’ve been limerent before during my marriage and I’ve had friendships with a couple of other LOs that bordered on inappropriately close and they may or may not have had some feelings for me too, but there was never any disclosure of feelings, never an actually emotional affair relationship. Those other LEs were difficult in their own ways, but I never felt nearly as overwhelmed and entangled as I do now.
I think co-dependent is a good word for what we’re experiencing now. I’ve always had a tendency toward co-dependency in romantic relationships, and I’m pretty certain that if circumstances were different and LO and I were free to be in a relationship together for real, we’d end up in a highly co-dependent relationship and would suffocate each other. I’m going to do some reading and studying about co-dependency in the next week or so, I think that’s one of my blind spots that I need to understand better. Because it’s not just LO that’s suffering from co-dependency in this relationship, it’s me too, and I think that’s one of the main things I need to address in order to get myself out of this mess.
Actually I think I don’t really understand what co-dependency is very well at all. Does anyone have a good explanation or a link to a good website or video to help understand it better?
LIS hi,
Read Article:
Co-Dependency and Attachment Style Evolve 8/18/23
Site: evolvetherapymn.com
@Lost in Space
I don’t believe that your limerent lady has the emotional ability to separate from you or give you the boundaries you seek. And you are having a hard time detaching yourself from her when she starts crossing your boundaries. Since she is not going to be the strong one to separate you both, you will have to muster up the boldness to enforce it, and/or literally block her from yourself.
She will need to seek help and therapy for her unhappy marriage, and her emotional health. She should not be able to seek it in you, as you do not want to continue the emotional affair. If there’s anything I’ve learned in mutual limerence, at least one person has to be the bigger person to put a stop to it. I haven’t had the experience of someone stepping beyond my boundaries, but I have two close family members who are emotionally unstable at times and I have had to literally block him from my life so that I can move on. Different scenario, but it’s what has to be done sometimes with people who do not adhere to personal boundaries.
I hope this helps. I only want the best for both of you, your marriages and well-being for the future.
LIS,
Im sorry you’re feeling confused now that you’re doing so well and were happy with your decisions.
I’m trying to figure out what’s in your LO’s mind, ha, as if anyone could! I think she really got scared when you told her the new boundaries which she agreed to follow . She probably felt you’re serious about it and thought about it again, coming back stronger with her feelings to see if you’re still “available “, testing the waters?
Now, she found out she can still have a pull on you, therefore she feels she can keep on playing the cold and hot game???
Do you think a new round of conversations must take place? And if so, what would be the top priority you’d bring to the table? We understand you don’t want to hurt her. (You don’t have to answer).
You have to ask yourself:
What do I really want to happen?
You can also ask LO the same question.
Wishing you a clear mind and peace of mind.
greetings, fellow Limerents,
This is the story of my LO and me. We both used to sit next to each other in school. We are still in school by the way. I think it all started a few days before a trip, for some reason. anyway, she moved her place somewhere else, got herself an SO, and we both stopped contact. Until we didn’t. Our teacher – oh, that innocent soul – made us sit next to each other. we fell into a talk/no talk cycle.
some times, we would have periods of estimable amounts of converesation, followed by intervals of silence. all this sparked up a lot of IC. everything started to remind me of her.
luckily, they changed our sections this year, but we still meet quite often, and that poses quite a problem. every hour I get reminded of my LO.
the worst part, however, was she inadvertently gave me glimmers of hope.
A big thank you to all the LwL ladies for the care and concern and advice today, I’m sorry I don’t have time today to write to everyone individually, but you definitely all gave me a lot to think about and I’m going to just kind of mull things over for the next couple days and not initiate any contact with LO and be pretty blasé if she does contact me, and then I’m actually going on vacation for a couple weeks starting Friday which is perfectly timed to get some separation and distance and time to think and reset a bit…
I do have to share something that just happened that had me shaking my head at how freaking ridiculous I am (don’t judge 🫣) and how ridiculous life can be… I spend the morning feeling really anxious and down and burned out, and then this afternoon I had a dental cleaning which is normally my least favorite thing in the world so I was in a pretty bad mood. But then… the dental hygienist was this really cute young woman who was really chatty and flirty with me, tons of eye contact, laughing excessively at everything I said, kept telling me how nice I was, touching my chest a lot while we were chatting, at one point me and her both caught the giggles together for some reason and had to pause the cleaning for a few minutes while we composed ourselves… and it all just felt so good to have a casual harmless little flirt with someone I’m only going to see 2-3 times per year. Half of me was inwardly shaking my head at what a hopeless degenerate I am, and the other half of me was thanking the universe for giving me a little gift to shake me out of my funk.
Anyway now I’m gonna go home and take my son to the gym for a swim (I’m really into lap swimming lately!) and then the babysitter is coming over and me and SO are heading out for a little date night, so it’s gonna be a good night. Sending positive energy to everyone here too!!
I wish i could do that…
“felt so good to have a casual harmless little flirt”
I know right!?!?!
Pleasantry without the pathos. A “normal” crush is equally pleasant.
Everything I read on here is so wise and so right and useful. Yet I found going NC so difficult to the point of instigating contact again. Things have been left off on a positive but for me. I never know if that will be the last conversation will be the last interaction. Being friends with someone you can’t really hang out with in the normal sense of the word is like an overflowing bottle of prosecco that you need to quickly put the top back. All of this desire is bubbling up but there’s nowhere it can do except back in otherwise it’ll spill everywhere and make a big mess.
I am sorry for the pain LiS is experiencing. My situation isn’t that intense as there hasn’t been any mutual disclosure although there was a comment the other day which made me panic slightly that he was a bit obsessed with me. That thought has disappeared now but I would feel uncomfortable if he thought of me the way I thought of him. Yet part of me would still want to know if he feels the chemistry. But as we know this won’t lead to closure and would actually be more risky.
Just trying to see every interaction now as fun when it comes but no big deal when it passes and if there is no contact again, then good (but sad) but good. She says in the height of LE having not started the next phase of withdrawal. The intrusive thoughts are getting a bit graphic though.
I am really scared though of another LE with someone else if i get over this LE. I’m sort of holding on to this a bit as a better the devil you know situation. Anyone been in this position before? I never want to experience this again with anyone else.
Things I know :
I don’t want an affair
Whatever LOs feeling, it doesn’t matter because I don’t want an affair
Hello, Whoomp!
It’s interesting that you said going no contact was too painful or difficult for you, so you got back in contact. I would never want to minimize the pain of no contact. It is extremely painful. It’s a frenzy of withdrawal symptoms. For me, the no contact started when my coworker told me he was minimizing his side of the texting intentionally. I backed off right away; I didn’t want to overstep his boundaries. But the true no contact happened much later when he left our company altogether. That happened with both of my limerent experiences while married –they left the company — and was the only way for me to experience relief from limerence.
In my experience, any form of no contact is really painful initially. But, now I know with personal experience, the symptoms eventually go away. I have learned to let the feelings just go through their cycle so that I can get over it sooner. I have learned that feelings are just feelings when getting over limerence; I try not to attach too much significance to the pain. I let it take its course.
As far as not starting another limerent experience, yes, I am actively learning how to teach my body and mind to not start new limerent experiences. For some reason, my limerence likes to find potential new people and start the cycle again. It’s a constant fight between heart and mind. But the skills I am learning are priceless.
Like you, I know I do not want any affairs, emotional or physical. Mostly though, I don’t want to be tempted to leave my husband for a new man. (I am more likely to divorce instead of having an affair.)
Well Whoomp, glad you are still with us and I hope there’s a nugget of help somewhere in this response for you. I hope you feel better soon! 💙
“things I know:
I don’t want an affair
Whatever LO’s feeling, it doesn’t matter because I don’t want an affair”
I know, right?
even though our feelings have progressed to the point of limerence, it can still be frightful to have an affair. its a quirk of psychology. i have read somewhere that it is actually much more pleasurable to think of your LO – imagine having conversations, picture her doing god knows what in your head – than to actually do them – talk with them, have affairs etc.
I used to do a lot of stuff before NC:
picturing her face;
daydreaming and having imaginary conversations;
look at her face – those eyes, that cute hair curl- from the other side of the classroom;
draw her face by referring instagram pics;
you get the idea. but I almost never talk to her, and the thought of an affair is enough to give me a nightmare.
Whoomp/Limmernt Nurse
In an interaction with a woman a few months ago (a friend of my sister in law’s that came with her to visit family) when four of us went out for a night on the town, that I seem to be drawn to very extroverted women. I didn’t realize that then, but I was on guard against limerence almost immediately. Which is kind of ironic being that I mostly went after introverted and shy girls when I was younger. I guess we all do change as time goes on. Anyway, I guess my point is, I wonder if it a personality type that triggers our limerence and not just our preferred sex in general? There are quite a few qualities this woman had that were a lot like exLO. Makes me wonder.
Dear LiS,
Hope you are feeling better today after yesterday’s adventures. I came across this older blog about the recovery mindset and thought you might find it helpful. https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-recovery-mindset/
It seems to me that your mentality seems to have shifted away from your LO (maybe only my perception). But if so, seize the opportunity. Mindset is very important for my own circumstances because it has made riding out the bad days much easier.
Have a good one!
Yes still here, lurking in the background. Resisting the inevitable no contact. Keeping a low profile because I don’t want to quit just yet. Classic junkie!
Last time I went NC I saw it as a bit of a rejection towards me as the last interaction had been positive then there were cold responses to when i reached out. But I had read a lot on here and I think I got too entrenched in it all. I had also been going through some big life/identity changes. I won’t instigate contact now unless there is some reason to. Seeing mutual colleagues was a tricky thing to navigate which what led to me instigating contact again last time. Im seeing those people again in a few weeks and trying to remember that LO and I were also friends and not to feel threatened in any way by their relationships. I’ll also try not to engage in conversations about LO.
Trying a new easy breezy approach. 😌 Sunshine helps too.
Thanks for the sage responses as always
Maybe it is healthy transference and will help you crawl out of despair. You won’t have the energy to fall into LE with the hygenienist, but she will give you enough of a little boost to lift your spirits until they are lifted themselves.
Anyway this is kind of what I’m doing at the moment, and my mood is way better, it’s helping take my mind of LO, and I’m not at all in danger of LE with any of these little connections.
@Adam
The more you dig into your triggers for limerence — beware! They start coming out of the woodworks 😃
But, seriously, once I started making connections with the “type” that I am prone to be limerent for, I had to consciously start preventing it from happening again. It’s weird to draw out subconscious things to the conscious realm. Attractiveness, personality and chemistry are the trio that get me 💙
I don’t think I could become limerent for a non-reciprocating person anymore. The reciprocal ones are too intoxicating. I don’t even consider having the one-sided ones I used to have anymore.
Ah so this morning I’ve woken up with a churning stomach. Last night I had a message from mutual colleague about going to an event that I can’t attend. Then i just wonder whether LO will be there and I get sad and jealous. I don’t even know if he would be there. Also if I went and he was what on earth would happen? I’d be too nervous and potentially shaky. Turns out that was a trigger I wasn’t expecting! Contact with this person is inevitable so I need to try and separate the two issues. Work on jealousy and not let myself get affected by fictional situations. I am very tempted to ask LO how he perceives our friendship but I don’t really think that’s something normal friends ask? But normal friends don’t have the constant uncertainty and have an outlet to hang out without crossing any potential boundaries I suppose.
I think the physical reactions to LE are the worst for me. Harder to control and distract from.
Hi Whoomp,
Your comments are very relatable (and your writing is very descriptive, I can see exactly where you are at). First things first:
“I am very tempted to ask LO how he perceives our friendship but I don’t really think that’s something normal friends ask?”
Correct – that’s not something normal friends ask and its so self-evident that I don’t think you are seriously considering even asking him that.
Next crucial part of your comment
“Things I know :
I don’t want an affair
Whatever LOs feeling, it doesn’t matter because I don’t want an affair”
This bit is really helpful because it doesn’t just show that you know where your priorities lie and you are thinking clearly, at least for the part of the time when your body and brain is not overwhelmed by physical desire for this person, it also provides provides an anchor to centre yourself on when brain and body chemicals take over. Your description of the emotional and physical overwhelm that you feel around your LO is very familiar to me. You also are getting upset by jealousy and FOMO when mutual friends mention LO and the fact that they might be seeing LO without you being there. Very familiar! Although I see LO infrequently, there are often young nubile women about when I do. And I think my LO is very susceptible, so I actually use that in my favour, to harden my heart. I have identified that my LO represents many things to me but one of them is validation. My heart-hardening goes something like this: if LO’s head is turned by a beautiful younger woman, then he is no longer providing validation to me; hence he has outlived his usefulness. I almost want him to do it. As you can see, I can be a hard-hearted cow! Ha ha. Whatever works.
As you say yourself, you can use any number of strategies to “Work on jealousy and not let myself get affected by fictional situations.” Because, yes, it is all fictional. But some fiction is more healthy for us than others. I mean, why invent a story to torture myself when I can invent a story to recover from limerence? Make something up that suits your recovery mindset / narrative.
By the way, I did see your comment about this particular LE being ‘safe’ and a better the devil you know type situation. I am not the best person to advise on that because I am on my first LE and have been for years now (can you detect the fatigue and exhaustion 😀 ?!)
Whoomp I didn’t get whether you work with your LO or not, and whether you need to plan for seeing them repeatedly in that context; or whether LO was more friend of a friend with uncertain future contact; or whether you don’t expect to see them at all and you are more concerned with simply hearing about them second-hand. But I believe that, what ever situation it is, your own mentality will really help with those physical symptoms you’ve been having and the fact that you have some home-truths to anchor on, will help overcome the brain and body chemicals.
The worst trigger is the “mothering”. Dunno why. The other night I asked Momma if she would make me some grilled cheese. She makes the best. Mine either come out soggy from too much butter or burnt all to hell. She made them for me and I had this warm feeling inside when she gave them to me. They were so delicious and perfect.
When my brother and sister in law and her friend were out that Saturday night when we finally stopped to eat we ate a taco place. We all ordered and got our food and went and sat down. I was going to put some salsa on my taco and saw they put guacamole on my taco. I made a face and she asked me what was wrong. “They put guacamole on my taco eww.” She said give it to me. And she took my taco and scraped most of it out and then went to the condiment bar and put some sour cream on it. “Now you shouldn’t be able to taste any of it.” Me in my head “Don’t you even start Adam!”
So yeah facing your triggers can be educational for understanding yourself but also dangerous as you can then easily give into them. It’s like me with drinking. If I need to be sober I can’t even have one. I recognize that trigger. As long as I adhere to it I am okay. But I could also be like “f it I can have one” and then fall down that slippery slope. Ugh the psychology of the mind is a mine field. Can’t we go back as a society to when we bottled everything up?
@Adam
I am a limerholic 💕
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3hdFWmerQ
I’ve been listening to this song over and over this morning, Marcus Mumford singing unrecorded Dylan lyrics. The chorus is just the same line over and over again:
“And I love you dear… but just how long… can I keep singing this same old song?”
The verses are about a woman who keeps inviting him into his life and pushing him out again.
I like this song.
Hi LiS,
nice! Nice guitar solo. And that’s really Johnny Depp, isn’t it?
Well, what can I say. Maybe it’s time for you to go back to Kansas City (and for me too);)
It really is Johnny Depp! Apparently Elvis Costello was supposed to play that guitar part but he couldn’t make it to the studio that day so they got Johnny Depp to play instead. Which is just pretty cool all the way around.
I went to Kansas City once for a convention. It was really nice! So spacious and easy to get around. I went for a couple of nice runs there and had some good barbeque. I’d go back!
Cool! I only know Kansas as in „Toto, I‘ve a feeling that we are not in Kansas anymore“ 🙂
Spot on article for my situation. I work very closely with my LO as I nurse for him whilst he faces patients. He is kind, caring, handsome, and likes me (although not that way, which is so hard to accept, obviously). We are the same age, I am single but he is (happily) married with 3 kids so a big no-no. I have been limerent on him for a year now, from day one. I actually asked him for a reality check 3 months ago, with the view to burst the bubble, which he did, by saying sorry for leading me on, defo ‘only friends’ and thanked me for being upfront. We have struggled since but I kept at it (doing all the things listed in the article). And yes I have had to hold the boundaries as he didn’t get it at first, which gave me the opportunity to trust myself. But how bizarre to work at ruining something you want so badly! 2 days ago an accidental contact sent me back into a limerence episode but otherwise we have finally found the right tone when working together, with some very awkward and weird moments has to be said thinking I shall probably leave the job. Thankfully I only work with him 2 days a week and typically the limerence fades just when it’s time to get back! I expect I’ll still be limerent for some time but I am defo in remission.
Hello Frenchtart, it sounds like you are making great progress and you are very self aware. Good for you. The ebb and flow is hard and probably feels like regular set- backs every few days. It’s very hard when your LO knows you like them and probably enjoys the adoration thus not helping the limerence, but no real concept about the pain you are suffering. I hope you can keep managing it, and if you do decide to leave the job that you find another of same equality and value or even better opportunity. Feel free to keep posting here if you need support from those who understand.
Thanks Imho for the kind words and support.
Since this is the coffeehouse, I have a little something to share with the group. And it’s about the group too. Sorry in advance for failing to include anyone who wished to be included. I have tried to be as complimentary as possible. 🙂
Welcome to LwL, friends,
A place where people come to mend
Broken hearts, or at least discuss
Inopportune outbreaks of lust.
Nisor is expeculating.
“He said: ‘That dress?’ What does it mean?”
The ghosts of the past loom large
For this French-speaking colleen.
The Sphinx is dealing with issues
Too intricate to analyse.
Did I say “Sphinx”? I meant “Phoenix”,
The red bird said from ash to rise.
Marcia likes to keep things brief –
Of the quick comeback she is chief.
She never checks out tiresome links.
“Gotta get in some beauty sleep!”
Limerent Emeritus knows
A thing or two about shadows
That make full-grown men weak at legs.
He’s seen what curveballs life can peg…
Frederico yearns to shop for
Birthday cards he fears to send
Because the card’s recipient
Means more to him than a mere friend.
Adam thinks and thinks and thinks
And some of his thoughts are profound.
I see a man consumed with doubt
Whilst charming all at table round.
Mila. Bewitched – classy ladies.
Both would insist they’re nothing spesh,
But their hot takes are polished
And peppered with uncommon sense.
Grego’s running from golden dreams
That sometimes shine as bright as day.
Limerent Nurse is determined
To find the chemicals at play.
Welcome to LwL, friends,
A place where people come to spend
More time than they perhaps think best,
Trying to lay phantoms to rest.
Beautiful Sammy. You summed them all up 100%. The Good Doctor should post that somewhere for first time posters.
“Trying to lay Phantoms to rest.”
Ain’t that the truth..
It’s ok you didn’t remember me. Totally fine. I wouldn’t remember me either.
@MJ.
“It’s ok you didn’t remember me. Totally fine. I wouldn’t remember me either.”
Lol. Sorry, MJ. 😜
MJ’s a fellow middle-aged,
But he’s not ready to quit stage.
Beautiful girls still catch his eye –
Most bravely, he tries not to sigh.
Ooh ooh, now you gotta do me!!
Nice work btw – love it 🙂
-LiS
Well now I’m touched Sammy. Thank you for the add-in. Appreciate your kind words that really do fit rather appropriately..
Think we need an exclusive Coffeehouse thread for poetry. Kinda like what we have for the music.
You missed me, too! Though I don’t talk much. 😉
@Serial Limerent.
“You missed me, too! Though I don’t talk much. 😉”
You were just too special to include! 🙂
@Serial Limerent.
“You missed me, too! Though I don’t talk much. 😉”
I thought of one for you:
Serial Limerent’s a wife
Who does her best to avoid strife.
She’s aware vast gulfs can exist
Between “what could be” and “what is”.
Sammy’s a guy who is wordy and dear,
He gets all his kicks from Austen and Greer,
He comes with a metaphor & leaves with a pun,
On the intricate contrasts in man and wo-man.
And nice one, Bewitched!!
I would have liked to make one for Sammy, but my grasp on the English language isn’t firm enough:)
Haha, thanks Mila! “De Beauvoir” didnt rhyme with anything and had too many syllables
This was a very nice poem from Sammy. -Cheered me right up!
Sammy,
a rhyme on „de Beauvoir“, please?:)
Bewitched,
no, my English isn’t;) but thanks. Hope you are doing fine💪🏻!
Your english is perfect, by the way!
Creative Bewitched..
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
He’s reaching for stars but I’ll never fathom,
How he could have forgotten MJ and Speedwagon
And Imho?😌
Funny you say that Mila, just when I’m online with LwL this morning. That’s ok I think of myself as one of the LwL cast but not one of the leading actors 😀
Imho,
I’m not a leading actor either, I just blather my stuff out because I have no one to talk to.
Good to hear from you, I hope you are doing well on the limerence front and otherwise!
Am ok Mila, trying to embrace the feeling of uncomfortable to do productive but boring things and reduce my LO ruminating hobby. Feel free to keep spilling here. Great you are moving into a new chapter it seems to me.
Imho faces off trouble and strife,
By aiming to constantly live her best life,
Her LO is sporty, funny and tall,
And not necessarily humble at all
X
Bewitched, bravo! You fire off these rhymes!
Imho, a new chapter is definitely ahead, due to circumstances, not necessarily due to me. I ruminate about something that irks me today about myself. Maybe better than ruminate about LO.
I wish I could be like you and just do the boring but productive stuff. I‘m such a procrastinator.
Bewitched, you are brilliant! Thank you for my little verse it’s spot on.😊
Mila, I’m trying, not excelling yet. I am a terrible procrastinator. I watched this ted talk last weekend. You may like it too, it’s also quite funny
https://youtu.be/arj7oStGLkU?si=IHsW3lPvZxTW3BtB
Imho,
brilliant, that’s exactly me. Monkey winning all the time and panic monster saving the day. It was only a bit scarce in solutions 😅
I actually watched it to procrastinate on something else.
@Lwlers.
Thanks for all the nice feedback on the poem, guys. I only have one question. Who is Speedwagon? And who is Imho and LIS and CamillaGeorge? Honestly, I’ve never heard of any of these people! Are you sure they’re in our graduating class? No, just kidding… 😆
Speedwagon’s someone I’d like to know.
I think of him as “one of the bros”.
He sometimes chats with Limerent E.
About topics too manly for me.
Imho reads on the train,
But not all books are what they seem.
It’s “Pride and Prejudice” on the cover
And “Living with Limerence” in-between.
LIS is a lovely chap.
His mind tends to go forth-and-back.
Someone has him under her sway –
Who that someone is I cannot say.
CamillaGeorge is a lady.
I can just tell from the fancy name.
Her tale’s obscure, but whatever –
Let’s have her round, and make her a dame.
And another verse for Mila, just to reassure her that all her contributions are indeed valued:
Mila’s worried that she’s spamming.
Mila, sweetie, don’t say “spam”.
Spamming is a fashion no-no
And everybody knows you’re glam!
🤐😂😂🤐
Excellent 👏 👏 Bewitched!
@Bewitched.
“Sammy’s a guy who is wordy and dear,
He gets all his kicks from Austen and Greer,
He comes with a metaphor & leaves with a pun,
On the intricate contrasts in man and wo-man.”
Beautiful, Bewitched. I see evidence of real craftsmanship here – or real craftswomanship, as the case may be. However, I feel you have only done justice to some of the more flattering aspects of my character. I feel you haven’t captured my darkness and my grouchiness. So allow me to add a few more verses to your verse to flesh out the caricature…
Mr Sammy is a hobbit I’m sure.
His loveless existence makes me feel sad.
He keeps throwing stupid rocks at me.
Oh wait – they’re pearls and diamonds. My bad!
Mr Sammy is a gremlin – for reals.
How did he escape from the zoo?
He can’t even pronounce “de Beauvoir”
And yet he dares to critique her work. Struth!
Mr Sammy thinks men and women
Are different species – the very nerve!
Thankfully, neither men nor women
Rush to claim him as part of the herd.
Mr Sammy is a holy fool.
He thinks Ms Paglia still is cool.
Get a grip, boy. The queens you revere
Haven’t been cool in thirty years…
Mr Sammy is a lunatic.
He thinks the moon is made of blue cheese.
And when you try to reason with him,
He bakes blue moon cheesecake, and asks you to tea.
Mr Sammy is a hobbit I’m sure –
And his beau was a hobbit too,
Or a gremlin with hairy toes.
Oh, why won’t the wildlife stay in the zoo?
🗣️🖤👺 👿👹💀🖤
🦾 🪨🪨 🪨
@Snowphoenix.
“🗣️🖤👺 👿👹💀🖤
🦾 🪨🪨 🪨”
Ah, very safe response, Snow. You know I can’t read emoji-ese. Your all-pictures response means I have no way of disagreeing with you. You’ve guaranteed yourself the last word … eh … last picture. 😁
But, seriously, this poem about Mr Sammy (my part, not Bewitched’s part) was written with you in mind as the imaginary speaker. 🙂
Glad you enjoyed! 😜
Oh boy/man/LO! The 🧊 is melting by the sunny flattery of a charming Hobbit, the ❄️ 🦜 is going to lose face….😶🌫️
Why are hobbits obsessed with stones of some mineral kinds and enjoy throwing them to people and even a 🤕🐦 who is finally burning down 🙈 with last few moans and groans ??
Hope humming and rhyming of the blue mooncake with rosy petal-tea would allure a rebirth of🪽 from the ashes.…
@Snowphoenix.
“Why are hobbits obsessed with stones of some mineral kinds and enjoy throwing them to people and even a 🤕🐦 who is finally burning down 🙈 with last few moans and groans ??”
Perhaps you’ll find some agreeably poetic answer to your presumably rhetorical question in this charming little poem called “Flint” by the acclaimed Victorian poet, Miss Christina Rossetti?
An emerald is as green as grass,
A ruby red as blood;
A sapphire shines as blue as heaven;
A flint lies in the mud.
A diamond is a brilliant stone,
To catch the world’s desire;
An opal holds a fiery spark;
But a flint holds fire.
Rose-petal tea sounds disgusting. Don’t you academic types stock Earl Grey or English Breakfast? What’s the world coming to? 🙂
Sammy Hobbit,
I see: the “rocks” thrown at me were flints, no wonder ❄️ 🐦🔥 was on 🔥! Now, my wings and torso were already scorched to last few pieces, unable to carry any ruby, opal, sapphire diamond, not even a 🦚’s 🪶 … who knows if she could rise again after burning to ashes…
Earl Grey or English Breakfast (both a bit boring)? You forgot ❄️ is from East, taking pure leaves/powder (no tea bags) of Tie Guang Yi, Matcha, Chrysanthemum, Jasmine, Kombucha (made by myself), Spicy Chai w/ almond/oat/soy milk. Rose-petal Green only “looks/tastes” good in verse…
Drifting…〰️🎴 to follow David Niven ⭕️ the 🌎 in 80 days, in reverie…
@Snowphoenix.
Just so we’re clear: let’s go over it one more time. I’m not interested in attacking you or “throwing stones at you”. 🙂
Let’s look at the situation from another angle. If one of your dear friends or trusted colleagues at work disagreed with you, would you automatically assume he/she was attacking you? Disagreeing with someone isn’t the same as attacking someone. If you choose to assume (falsely) that your friends are attacking you whenever they disagree with you, you’ll probably going to have a hard time in life retaining friends.
As you yourself have noted, LwL isn’t an echo chamber. This means you are welcome to disagree with people. However, the sword of free speech is a double-edged sword – it means that other people are allowed to disagree with you too sometimes. Not all of your most cherished opinions/beliefs are going to be mirrored back at you. 🙂
“Why are hobbits obsessed with stones of some mineral kinds and enjoy throwing them to people and even a 🤕🐦 who is finally burning down 🙈 with last few moans and groans ??”
To answer your question in more depth, I’d say hobbits aren’t obsessed with throwing minerals at you or at anyone else. LwL is a support site. You often act like you’re seeking advice. If you’re not seeking advice, then you need to stop giving off incorrect signals. The “diamonds and pearls” I give you are just words of friendly advice that I assumed – due to your own signals – you were seeking.
I’ll be honest with you, Snow. I don’t believe you want advice and hence it’s unethical of you to keep saying/implying you’re seeking advice. What you’re seeking is sympathy. Seeking sympathy is fine. LwL is a support site and support definitely includes sympathy. However, if you keep getting responses from other posters that you find frustrating, you need to preface your comments with: “I’m feeling bad right now and am looking for sympathy. Only advice-free, non-constructive, purely sympathetic responses please.”
Male brains are a little slow. If you ask a man for advice, he’ll give you advice – quite literally. If you tell a man explicitly that you’re looking for sympathy, he may be able to furnish you with sympathy.
From your assorted musings, it does sound like you’re seeking sympathy from a male figure, and not advice. You talk about your LO being a listening ear, etc. So if there’s a specific thing you’re seeking i.e. sympathy, you need to phrase your questions accordingly. 😉
The advice-giving part of the male brain and the sympathy-giving part of the male brain are actually two different compartments. In order to obtain the best results, you need to indicate clearly which compartment you want men to tap into. In female brains, I imagine the advice compartment and the sympathy compartment tend to overlap. When a woman asks a woman for advice, the second woman instinctively knows the first woman is asking for sympathy.
On a lighter note, rose-petal tea does sound like it would go with blue-moon cheesecake aesthetically, in terms of rose and blue being complementary colours. Didn’t Picasso go through a Rose Phase and a Blue Phase? Any tea party we host we must host in the Picasso Tearoom. If the Picasso Tearoom sounds unfamiliar, I believe it is the same tearoom T. S. Eliot alluded to when he said: “… the room women come and go/talking of Michelangelo.” (The above is a joke. There is no Picasso Tearoom in real life that I know of). 😜
The hobbit poem wasn’t meant to flatter you, Snow. The hobbit poem was an exercise in emotional empathy. I was trying to put myself into your shoes, and imagine how you experience me. I imagined that you experience me as a very annoying person, maybe because I am objectively annoying. If you don’t find me annoying, maybe you should find me annoying, because I am objectively annoying. Are we singing from the same hymnbook yet? 🤣
In your limerent journey, it sounds like you’re in limbo. All the old certainties have disappeared for you. You no longer believe in objective meaning of any kind, and everything is kind of up for reinterpretation. However, you’re still a long way away from rebirth…
In terms of philosophy, it sounds like whatever philosophical system you grew up with isn’t big enough to hold all the ideas/values/feelings you want it to hold. Whatever philosophy you embrace at the end of limerence is likely to include at least some elements of Western Romanticism you find personally attractive, even if you don’t embrace Western culture in its entirety.
Wishing you the best.
P.S. Remember to ask for sympathy when you want sympathy and ask for advice when you want advice. Other humans can’t read your mind and can’t always accurately gauge where you’re coming from. At least some responsibility for clear communication rests with you. 😜
Okay, okay, okay, Sammy hobbit!
I believe you never intend(ed) to “attack” me or “throw stones at me” (valueless gray ones);
I believe you genuinely wish I get over with this lingering, stupid LE and feel liberated soon;
I believe you sincerely want to mentor me with your well of knowledge, abundant advice, sympathy, empathy;
I believe you meant a highly compliment me stepping in my shoes and humming a verse on behalf of a 🐦🔥
I also believe that there are certainly definition discrepancy between hobbit’s and human’s dictionaries… and a clearer communication needs to be learned by both species.
I did/do not need or want advice, nor sympathy, no stones of any value, but an available LO on earth 🐉 with whom I could pair-bond in body, mind, and spirit… I want to be a light 🐦🔥
Are hobbits for human adoption? 😋
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your kind words – they are much-appreciated. 🙂
“I believe you genuinely wish I get over with this lingering, stupid LE and feel liberated soon …”
To be perfectly honest, Snow, I don’t even wish this for you – although you are certainly welcome to wish something along these lines for yourself. My position on your limerence is one of complete neutrality.
Your journey is your journey; my journey is my journey.
What I want for you, Snow, is for you to decide in your own time and on your own terms, what you feel is best for you. I wish you success in living your best life. However, I can’t tell you what your best life is. Only you have insider knowledge of your own personality.
“I did/do not need or want advice, nor sympathy, no stones of any value, but an available LO on earth 🐉 with whom I could pair-bond in body, mind, and spirit… I want to be a light 🐦🔥”
Not wanting advice or sympathy is fine. However, LwL is a support site. If at any point in the future, you feel the need to ask fellow LwLers for advice or sympathy, I’m sure you’ll encounter plenty of kind-hearted people willing to provide examples of both kinds of support. 🙂
In other words, you don’t need to be strong all the time. It’s okay to be weak. It’s okay to be vulnerable. It’s okay to seek comfort from other humans when you’re feeling low. That’s the beauty of being human and that’s the beauty of a support site such as LwL.
“Are hobbits for human adoption? 😋”
We are a protected species that are most likely to thrive when left in our natural habitat in the wild. 😜
O Me! O Life!
Walt Whitman
1819 –1892
O Me! O life! of the questions of these recurring,
Of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the foolish,
Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?)
Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the struggle ever renew’d,
Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me,
Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined,
The question, O me! so sad, recurring—What good amid these, O me, O life?
Answer.
That you are here—that life exists and identity,
That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
Nice one, Sammy;)
„ A place where people come to spend
More time than they perhaps think best,
Trying to lay phantoms to rest.“
Indeed!
Hahaha Sammy dear,
You made me laugh! LOVE IT!
It’s nice to see the errors looked at as satire and jest. We need the laughter in this pining world!
Stay put , and enjoy your weekend. Hugs
@Nisor.
I am glad my little jests brought you pleasure, Madame. 🙂
Hats off, Sammy, your poem is very funny indeed.
I was just chuckling through the verses when I got to the one which currently sums me up. My jaw dropped because five minutes earlier I had cancelled two beautiful cards that I ordered yesterday in a moment of unbelievable weakness.
Maybe you have some sort of remote access to my devices.
You have stiffened my resolve, so to speak.
f
@frederico.
Glad you enjoyed your verse. What is it with gay men and greeting cards? 🙂
Big hugs, mister.
Thanks, Mila, and Sammy too.
It will help me, I think, just to set this out. Perhaps gay men do indeed like greetings cards, Sammy.
Mila, yes, maybe I should metaphorically “burn” them.
Like others before me, I sometimes find it easier to be definite and passionate when commenting on others’ limerence rather than dealing with the reality of my own.
A few days ago, I easily convinced myself that I would just send cards to LO and his little girl for their birthdays. It would be low key, a brief message, a lovely subtle way of staying in touch until after the LE thing is well and truly over.
I even ordered the perfect cards (now cancelled) on this week’s shopping order. In many ways, it felt so logical though. Even the thought of sending them releases a pressure valve, or is that some dopamine slipping into the system?
Then I have to ask myself why I would send them. Really, why? Am I using this for my own ends? Well, yes.
It’s easy to slip into sentimentality. I am genuinely so fond of the little girl and that’s because LO and I were in some sort of close mutual LE and he shared every aspect of the experience with me when she was born. I held her in my arms. I bought little gifts and I felt like an uncle or a grandparent. Now that I’ve written it down, it looks rather pathetic.
This is rather like a “Dear Diary” entry with knobs on.
So that’s where I’m at and, despite appearances, I’m really not that daft. I’m retired now, a mixed blessing in some ways, but I once had a demanding job involving lots of people. Looking back, people were limerent for me; I was limerent for others. Not always deeply. It feels as if we either knew or we didn’t know. We were very busy and we got on with work.
A year ago, I had the same dilemma. Everything else remaining from my LE, apart from the memories and recurring thoughts, has been disposed of but this is my Achilles’ heel, it seems, because the logic is still so tempting.
Then there’s the thing about the executive brain and the lizard brain, of course.
A year ago, I posed the same question although I knew the real answer. Despite my occasional grumpiness, several stalwart LwL experts took the trouble to say – don’t do it, it will be triggering and the sending of cards fades away sometimes, as do friendships conducted from a distance.
Last year I ignored the advice and posted the cards. LO, because he can be a charmer, then sent me a nice message asking how I was doing. I replied with photos of my first trip in a long while, a milestone. He ignored me and turned off the “read receipts”. I felt low.
Right, that’s it. I’m not sure if I should now click on the “Post Comment” box but I will not re-order the cards. Don’t order them. Just don’t order them.
Frederico, you were so nice to help me when I had my own infallible logic in sending the joke to LO recently. I also got yelled at by Snow, and it worked in the best possible way. So here is me yelling at you: Don’t do it!! I resisted because I didn’t want to be needy and pathetic, and because it wouldn’t lead anywhere good. I shared that particular joke with a lot of people and got a lot of laughs. LO did not need it. Send us the cards virtually – or think of another way of pleasantly surprising someone else in your life, or a grocery store clerk, your barber, whoever, just not LO. Who knows what the universe will send you in return…
I can now confess here that when I was deep in the beginning stages of my limerence, I committed a limerent cardinal sign and sent my LO a gift. Right before he remembered that he was married… 🙈 He was very nice and thankful for the thoughtful gift, but that’s beside the point. The strange thing is that a few weeks later, I received a gift in the mail, just not from him… (And no, don’t send your LO anything. Send it to someone else!)
Our limerent minds can work anything into being the most logical step in our LE “story”, but it is a trick! Don’t buy it!
Frederico,
“ I held her in my arms. I bought little gifts and I felt like an uncle or a grandparent. Now that I’ve written it down, it looks rather pathetic.”
What the hell is pathetic about that? It’s not.
It’s you being caring and loving. It doesn’t matter if LO cannot acknowledge it anymore, this is you in a very good moment, because aren’t we our best when we are caring and loving.
You don’t have to diminish the past to find closure in the present, I think?
But it’s exactly what I do from time to time to convince myself that there’s not much to lose in my LO.
As you say,” Like others before me, I sometimes find it easier to be definite and passionate when commenting on others’ limerence rather than dealing with the reality of my own.”
I think actually, if it makes you happy to send the cards without expecting any response, why not. But I suspect a response would throw you back again. So, better don’t do it.
It’s actually a great idea of Trifles to send the cards to someone else.
Frederico
My friend it is good to hear from you. I similarly miss being the “adoptive dad” to exLO’s daughter. I never had one like I wanted to. We were blessed with two boys that have grown into amazing men thanks to their mother.
I woke up at like 4:30 am yesterday and couldn’t sleep again. So I laid in bed listening to music. I had a weak moment. I was listening to Seasons in the Sun by Terry Jacks and the line “goodbye Michelle my little one, you gave me love and help me find the sun” got to me. I so wanted to use her daughter as an excuse to go to facebook. Thankfully I didn’t.
Then I was at church and I noticed (church was overcrowded due to Mother’s Day) that the sister than usually does the keyboards for the opening hymns wasn’t on stage. Not until the service was over did I notice that she was there with her husband. The services ran so close together because of Mother’s Day celebration that there wasn’t much time for small talk. But went up to her and told her I was relieved that she was still there when I didn’t see her up on the stage. That I feared she had maybe been ill or something. She said she was just taking a break from preforming for a week or two. She said that she was surprised I noticed. And I told of course I noticed you were gone, your a staple of the church orchestra. And she thanked me. I found a much better feeling making her feel wanted than wasting it on facebook. That’s just my story.
Take care my friend.
@frederico.
I think greeting cards are appealing because of the sentimentality attached, as you say. I think one does kind of get a self-induced hit of dopamine looking at cards and deciding which ones to send. Also, one can get dopamine imagining other people’s response to the cards e.g. their gratitude, surprise, warmth in return, etc. I think we all just want to keep the dopamine train going…
There’s nothing wrong with greeting cards. But I think we “love” our LOs too much. We just want something from them that maybe they can’t give us or maybe something we shouldn’t ask them to give us.
I’ve stopped exchanging cards altogether with everybody in my life. My XLO and I exchanged many cards during the five years we were supposedly “close” and I just loved receiving cards from him.
I think I knew I had a problem (in general) with greeting cards when I was in a department store one day, looking at Christmas cards – usually images such as cocker spaniels sticking their heads out of red stockings. And I thought to myself: “There are about fifty million men I would like to send cards like this, too… Cute puppy dogs and attractive men light up the same pleasure circuits in my brain. I don’t think I can afford fifty million cards. And I probably shouldn’t be thinking about men as if they’re puppies I want to adopt.” 😆
I actually find your limerence episode very sad, Frederico. It reminds me of my own a little bit. It’s strange and nice you’ve obviously still getting some pleasurable feelings from engaging in reverie. But I imagine some negative feelings/letdown also follow any reverie.
I don’t really feel negative toward my XLO right now. I feel like I’m finally “free of him” mentally. I feel indifference/slight warmth in relation to him. The reason I feel slight warmth toward him is I think he accidentally showed me the direction I needed to grow as a person. He showed me that I was “overmature” for my age and needed to lighten up in order to be whole. My XLO was my soulmate in the sense he held up a giant metaphorical mirror to me, a giant mirror which enabled me to see all of my flaws and virtues clearly.
Maybe he had borderline traits, like LIS’s LO, although I don’t know how borderline traits would manifest in a male, since it’s a condition associated more often than not with females. My XLO was very charming, and I’ve been told I’m a charmer. He seemed to have no boundaries initially. He asked my opinion on things, and actually seemed to care about my opinion.
He seemed very eager to include me in his life, and of course I was thrilled by the implicit invitation. We appeared to have a lot in common. But he could also be cold and distant and “mysterious” and uncommunicative on a whim, as if the connection between us didn’t exist or as if he had decided suddenly that it didn’t matter. I felt like he was an elusive bird: I could never “get enough of him”.
I sort of think of my XLO as “a child at heart”. This point of view has been very helpful in allowing me to move on. He was enchanting like a child. And he was irresponsible like a child. He didn’t operate in the way an adult operates.
After our friendship came to an end, I felt many negative emotions toward him: anger, hatred, bitterness, betrayal. It took a long time to feel anything close to grief. I didn’t know I needed to grieve. I guess I had become addicted to XLO and needed him more than he needed me. I was chemically dependent on him. (He ghosted me after getting married. I knew he was getting married. He was upfront with me about his plans, even crossed out the word “monogamy” and replaced it with “matrimony” in one of his letters).
Sometimes, I try to imagine what it would be like to be my XLO. I.e. what it would be like to have so much power (unintentionally) over other people? I think my XLO’s personality was what was intoxicating, and not his appearance per se, although I didn’t think much about his personality at the time. I would say he was in the top ten most attractive men I’ve ever met, but not in the top five. I got hooked on his personality, and his looks become irrelevant. The only physical feature of his I thought about really were his eyes.
Long short short: someday you won’t be addicted anymore and someday you’ll feel better. Someday you’ll be able to feel good on your own, without needing an LO to make you feel good. 😜
Take care. Big hugs.
@Trifles, your reply made me smile and your advice – together with that of other friends here – was what I needed to read. I really don’t want to be needy and pathetic either! Thank you. I didn’t actually get the cards. They would have been very appropriate. I will look at contacting other friends instead.
@Mila Thank you. Your kind and thoughtful words are appreciated. I will shake off this final thread of addiction by doing nothing. Reflection is making me realise that both LO and I were unwise and that, one day, I may only see that there was once something beautiful in our friendship. If I were to have sent the card, and it elicited a response, I would probably just want more.
@Adam, it’s really nice to read your message. I was sorry to read on your other post that your poor wife is suffering. These things are incredibly difficult for everyone.
I had forgotten about your ex-LO’s daughter. Thank you for taking the trouble to write so empathetically because I do feel a bit of a berk!
You take care too.
f
Sammy. Goodness, that’s a very powerful post indeed and thank you for sharing some more about your own limerence experience.
There are some jaw-dropping similarities with my LE although I know we all sometimes feel that way.
My LO has always been “respectful” in the things he has said to me and we never had a cross word. I too felt many negative emotions though, after it was clear that something had gone awry, and your last three paragraphs, particularly, ring a bell with me.
Your last comment is so helpful. Thank you. Many hugs to you too.
f
Frederico, Just to clarify – I agree with Mila, this is not you being pathetic, this is you having a lot of love to give. Just try sending that love somewhere else and see what comes back! You already know what happens when you send LO cards, there’s no surprise in that.
The way I’m looking at my LE now, is: what do I learn from this? And: how do I cultivate this into something positive? (And sure it’s easy now that I’m no longer in the thick of it.)
I’ll try to describe an exercise I took part in less than a month into my LE. The task was to, on paper, draw the ground, then some seeds that represent things we want to let go of, and name them. One I of course named “LO”. Then we drew plants and flowers that sprouted from the seeds, representing something good. It made me think about what positive effects I could take from the LE. (Like getting fitter physically, realizing what I’m missing in life, opening up to new people, etc. I even drew symbols to represent these on the plant.) Obviously I did not get over the LE through that exercise, but it stayed and marinated in my mind.
Some effects also took me by surprise, like reactivating an old friendship with my transference object (who I’ll call TO. Not LO because I’m not limerent for him). I even confessed to TO that he’s helping distract me from LO (obviously I don’t call him LO, and TO doesn’t know many details). TO told me to thank LO for bringing this about! Obviously we are helping each other.
Hello Trifles
Yes, I understood, I just didn’t phrase my response very well.
Your anecdote was very interesting. It’s all grist to the mill and I now feel at peace with not succumbing to temptation. It felt scary, in a way, and there were possibly several LwL posters thinking. “For goodness sake, we already told you to leave him alone!”
Thanks again, Trifles, the messages I have received mean a lot and it’s amazing how they can turn you around and change things.
Have a great… whatever time it is where you are.
f
Welcome to LwL, friends,
A place where people come to mend
Broken hearts, or at least discuss
Inopportune outbreaks of lust.
Very well put Sammy; mending/tending broken hearts is important work and shouldn’t be neglected Imo.
Also, I’m delighted to get a mention in your LwL hall of fame poem😁
Beautiful Sammy. You summed them all up 100%.
“Trying to lay Phantoms to rest.”
Ain’t that the truth..
It’s ok you didn’t remember me. Totally fine. I wouldn’t remember me either.
Hi MJ, how are you doing these days? I still always look for your posts. Believe it or not, you’ve come a long ways since the days you started posting here. You were in it deep when you first joined the community! I think even the rest of us limerents were amazed by how bad you had it. I remember that you got some pretty hard-to-hear feedback when you first posted, the kind that probably would have chased a lot of people away, but you took it and kept coming back and kept writing and kept working on your life in your own way and at your own pace and you’ve made a lot of progress! Along the way, you’ve had some fun banter (remember C for cat?) and you’ve given some good advice – you’ve definitely helped me out a number of times to keep things in perspective and keep me from screwing up too badly. You’ve always seemed like a really decent and likeable guy who’s made some mistakes in the past and who’s dealing with a lot of challenges now, but you keep going and keep fighting the good fight. You’re a good dude. I’m glad to know you.
Thank you LiS. It’s so nice to hear from you again and I appreciate your kindness towards me. As well as so many others here who have more or less traveled with me during these last 22 months. I really don’t know how I kept it together. Somehow knowing there was this kind-of invisible support system out here helped more than I ever thought it could. Yes your critique of my behavior was very rough in the beginning. I remember I almost didn’t come back. I think it was continuing engaging myself in the conversations is what helped keep me grounded and probably what I needed to hear. Sometimes we do need tough love to begin “getting” it.
It was definitely limerence that took over. If it hadn’t been for my curiosity to figure out why I felt this way, I don’t know where I’d be today and I probably never would have found this place. I could not have ever imagined the hijacking that dear LO would do on me. I don’t hold her responsible in any way, as I know now, I’ve always been the one responsible for almost steering myself into insanity. You all helped me to realize what this condition does to a person. I still don’t think I’m completely out of the woods yet but yes I am in a better place today than I was.
These days I don’t see LO much. Our building ceased operations back in September. I am in the main operations plant way across the complex now and on a different shift.. LO is still doing her office thing in her warehouse, next to our former spot. To see her, I usually have to wait for her, in her parking lot to come in, when I’m leaving in the morning. I miss her but the hurt isn’t like it was. Pretty much I think I know where I stand.
I ran into LOs guy friend awhile ago when he was leaving work one day. I could tell by the look on his face he recognized me from before but still he said nothing. All he did was make eye contact, nod and kept walking. I know I’m no threat but I thought he might have had words for me, over what I figured LO perhaps told him about me. But I guess it wasn’t ever that big of a deal. I know they still see each other though. Ironically that doesn’t make me as jealous as it probably should.
My purposeful living strategies have consisted of taking care of Dad in his sickness. His issues have not really improved much in the last year. He only has one caretaker on very limited hours now, so I’m involved a lot more. This takes up a lot of time, so ruminating over LO isn’t anything like it was.
I also still have my Co-Worker Lady Friend, who has been so incredible to become a Friend to. She is the same age as LO, only about 2 months older. No Kids and recently separated from an SO. Not trying to push any agendas right now. I know it’s not time for that yet. I’m trying to just be someone she can talk to and trust. We hang out sometimes at work and text a little to each other, when we’re not. It’s not perfect but it works for me for now because it’s real and not an all up-in-my-head fantasy. She is very sweet, down to earth and fun to tease. It’s a huge mood lifter to my psyche. I couldn’t have asked for a better person to come around. It feels right because I’m NOT limerent for her. So maybe thats the other reason I never rush anything and pretty much let her set the pace. She is introverted to an extent and has shown some avoidant type behaviors now and then, but they’re easy to spot. So when she goes there, I back off and let her have her space.
It sounds like your story has improved too but are dealing with it in ways that are probably surprising to you, to say the least. I’m glad to have been some help, but hopeful I never came across as rude or condescending. I guess in a way, I was kind-of almost in a situation similar to yours, years ago with my Sister-in-Law, minus any of the loving emotions. I was a support person for her but it turns out I was just enabling her alcoholism. Plus I just saw her as an easy lay. Not my proudest moment of course, but divorce really sucks. I can however joke with my ex about it now and actually do remind her of that. Usually she just agrees. She does know I take responsibility for my actions.
I just hate seeing Men go through things, that seem like things that should be so easy to get out of, yet I know deep down they really aren’t. That, I guess, is what I was trying to convey to you. I know you know. You sound like you have an incredible, loving close family I once had. A good relationship with your kids and a career you enjoy. No marriage is perfect and I know yours wasn’t either. I lost a lot due to my incredible stupidity. I just didn’t want to see you lose it all to LO. Especially since she always seems way too fragile. Not that that is necessarily all bad either. You did what you had to do and I know you are still working through it.
You’re a really good Dude and I’m really glad to have got to know you as well. This forum is a great place for support. So I hope we can stay in touch here, to keep doing just that.
Take care my Friend..
I’ll see you around..
@MJ.
I don’t recall you posting anything requiring hard-to-hear feedback. Maybe I just skipped over those posts or maybe I just have a highly-selective memory…
Oscar-winning actress Ingrid Bergman said that the secret to happiness is “good health” and a “bad memory”.
I’m happy to hear you’re feeling more grounded these days. 😜
Thanks Sammy,
Yeah, I guess my advice wasn’t really hard core.
I guess I just felt like LiS was being more “hardheaded” and stubborn about dropping his situation at the time. When I guess I just felt like he was jipping his Wife completely of consideration.
It’s not my place to judge but I would have hated to see his situation with SO go off the rails, due to LO.
We all already know how difficult it can be to manage our situations alone in our heads. Adding a hurt SO just compounds the problem.
@MJ.
I just meant I only have sunny memories of you in terms of your personality. I don’t remember anything about your story apart from the basics. (Single man in midlife awestruck by unknown woman?)
I don’t really follow the threads in the comments section that get too heavy, as my brain can’t follow it. I guess I’m just a child at heart. I see a wall of text and I think: “Hm. I’m not going to read that.” I am much more similar to “give-me-the-condensed-version” Marcia than I let on. 😆
Also, the boys’ problems are less intrinsically interesting than the girls’ problems – (sorry!) – so I tend to skim over the boys’ posts.
If you’ve been able to help others with problems that are quite complex, that’s good to hear!! 😜
“I know I’m no threat but I thought he might have had words for me, over what I figured LO perhaps told him about me.”
MJ
First off good to hear from you my friend. I have been missing your posts, but I know that you are busy caring for your father. This struck me kind of hard. But in the end it was not only a familiar feeling but also a good warning for me.
I think exLO went out of her way to not introduce me to her gentleman friend. I think initially it hurt because I thought “I don’t mean anything to her” (as this was after I was working with her daily) until I wondered “does she think I am jealous?” Either way it didn’t matter. She had her reasons no matter my musings. If I had walked up to him on my own and said “Hi” the world wouldn’t have caved in on itself like I might have thought then.
The warning; is don’t let it get that way again. Back in March my wife’s family came to town to visit. My sister in law brought a friend of hers (recently divorced). They have been friends since childhood. She’s a very sweet and fun woman. Her, my sister in law, her husband and I went out on a Saturday night. It’s a reminder to be a friend to her. She does check my major rescue triggers. So I am keeping myself in check. I mentioned her in a facebook post for Mother’s Day yesterday. I am just glad to have a new friend, and just keep it that way. That a man could lay hands on her …. let’s just say he’d better not test how little a deterrent a life sentence is at my age.
I am sorry that your father still has issues. I can relate to a degree, as my wife’s bipolar has been hard on her, and she rarely leaves the house so I have to do a lot of the work. We did go out to the store yesterday. Haha my son (20 years old NOT 21 yet) decided to come home yesterday so I could buy him a vape and wine. 🙂 I see what I am good for lol
Thanks @Adam,
It’s good to hear from you again. I’ve been on from time to time, just lurking in the shadows but not posting as much. Although I do kinda miss getting into the banter now and then.
“I think exLO went out of her way to not introduce me to her gentleman friend. I think initially it hurt because I thought “I don’t mean anything to her” (as this was after I was working with her daily) until I wondered “does she think I am jealous?” Either way it didn’t matter.”
You mention that your LO never introduced Dude to you and that initially hurt you in a way. Similarly, my Lady Friend just opened up to me recently that she broke up with her SO of about 10 years. Thing is, is that in all the time I’ve been getting to know her, she just now brings this person up. For the last few months,, I would ask her how she is, how she’s feeling and what she’s doing on the weekend. Usually it consisted of catching up on sleep, helping her pregnant Sister, hanging with her Mom or going to Church on Sunday (She’s a good Lutheran, lol). No mention of any guy, their problems or that he’s around. In a way this has baffled me, but I figure it was all in the timing.
I was already seeing her around at work for a few months, prior to introducing myself to her. There was some heavy eye contact going on and the voice in my head told me I just have to approach her. So I did and from the start, she’s been nothing but cute and charming. But she does have some serious hurt from the relationship, which she’s told me very little about.
It was in January when I introduced myself to her. At the end of April, she mentioned things with her SO got really bad back in January. With her recently revealing, they actually broke up just 3 weeks ago now. I’m almost dumbfounded she’s never mentioned him up till now but really shouldn’t be surprised. She’s already surprised me in ways I never could have imagined.
What I’m trying to say is I feel like the Ladies prefer not to bring their Lovelife into our scope because they deep down really don’t want to let us down. Because at the same time, they might just really like being around us and the company we give them. If they mention a guy, then we might lose that interest in them and go away.. Because let’s face it, we’re Men and we like to get/give attention from/to, the Women. Sometimes no matter how big or how small it is.. Lately I find myself interacting with Women at work, I never would have had much to do with before, but I’m getting older and maybe wiser (or maybe just dumber, wtf?). Maybe it’s because LO helped change my perspective more than I thought and now I just don’t care. Or maybe I crave the attention.
Either way I guess it doesn’t matter and I’m trying to be more grateful than anything that I have a good job and a few people in this world that care about me. Or so it seems.
@MJ,
“It’s ok you didn’t remember me. Totally fine. I wouldn’t remember me either.”
Go easy on the self-depreciation MJ. I think your posts are very high quality and I get a lot out of them!
Thanks Grego. I’m slow slow progress on the self-deprecating talk but I’ve gotten better I think.
That’s actually a line from “American Beauty” Probably my all time favorite. So much in that movie reminds me of my marriage. The ending makes me bawl like a little schoolgirl.
I guess I’m still doing more good here than I think sometimes. I appreciate your posts too my Friend, as your insight has been helpful to me. I look forward to reading your posts, whenever I see your name on the opening page.
I love „American Beauty“!
It’s a fantastic movie Mila.. 😉
Hi MJ,
Sharing my personal musings:
Life is like a roulette , we all take a bet at it with love… once one felt like the king/queen of all the world , inadvertently, cruel and merciless at breaking hearts…not looking back at who was hurt or not.
Today, with limerence, silently imploring love from LO, even as of from mercy…Gosh, where’s one’s pride, one’s courage?
It’s not the same to love than to be loved…Oh, when you love and get hurt…not loved , it feels different right? What about those poor souls one broke their hearts once upon a time? Today that one is done, finished, oh this heart of mine, how pitiful you look begging for love!
I played the roulette of love and won many times over, but today it’s time to lose! Luck has finished ! Damned heart of mine, don’t you dare gamble again! I’m glad , oh my heart, that you’re suffering and crying and humbling yourself before this great love…The lesson learned : so I don’t bet in the roulette of love again.
Have a great week. Hugs.
Thanks @Nisor,
Been awhile since I heard from you. Nice to see you and your beautiful words here to read.
I appreciate you and your support. You have a great week too..
🤗
@MJ
I have guy and girl friends who are completely close-lipped about their relationships… so it could be just what she’s comfortable with sharing. Just a thought. I have seen both men and women do this. Maybe they do like the attention. I know I do! But, for me, I am a full-disclosure kind of girl. I sometimes hope that talking about being married, etc, will help the other guy (and me) not have feelings for each other. Boy, have I been wrong. It can absolutely backfire.
Anyway, that’s my experience. If she hasn’t talked much about it, it’s probably a sensitive subject for her. Maybe take it as a boundary she’s not ready for you to cross yet? That’s how I take those kinds of things. No matter how long I get to know someone, some people are private about certain things. I am probably the odd one because I like to talk about everything! 😁
Thank you @Limerent Nurse,
I think that I wanted to know in the beginning, so that any feelings wouldn’t erupt from within. I’m not trying to become limerent again, but I do know I am enjoying the hell out getting to know her. To me it feels like a normal little crush. I figured her telling me something about a relationship, would keep me in check but that’s not seemed to be the case. I flirt a little, use cheesy pick-up lines and try to make her laugh. I keep it light. So far this approach seems to be working but I don’t go overboard. Personally I think she just enjoys the attention because her and Dude have been on the outs for so long, so any time I come around now, she seems to like the company.
I don’t blame her though for keeping it to herself, since they’ve had problems. At least now I do know, so I’m better able to understand her mood swings.
LO totally ignored me all week this week, and then today we had a brief but really unpleasant text exchange where she directly contradicted everything she was telling me as recently as a week ago and made me feel like I was an asshole and basically told me to just leave her alone from now on (all in really polite terms though – she’s always really polite even when cutting my heart out). Even by our standards, it was a pretty stunning reversal from all of her warmth and affection from literally a week ago.
I was sitting in my backyard having a non-alcoholic beer afterward, just thinking about everything. I tried to separate myself from my emotions and just look at the situation analytically, and I had this moment of clarity – I realized with near certainty that she likely suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder. I went through the diagnostic criteria, answering for her using my observations and things she’s told me about her own internal world and her life history and other relationships, and she meets either 7 or 8 out of the 9 criteria (only 5/9 is required for the diagnosis). And it just made so much sense! It explains the sudden extreme shifts from hot to cold behavior and back again, the emotional dysregulation, the unstable relationships she has not just with me but with all the main people in her life, her own chronic feelings of emptiness and lack of stable self-identity and fear of abandonment, even her history of repeated suicide attempts.
It filled me with a lot of compassion for her – from everything I know the inner life of someone living with BPD is incredibly hard and painful. It also explained my own experiences – I read one article on BPD today that said that “lovers, friends and family members may often feel like they have emotional whiplash as a result of the rapid swings from idealization to devaluation”. What a great term – emotional whiplash. That’s pretty much been my life for the past year and a half. And also, if it’s correct that she suffers from BPD, it also is really good for me to realize that she absolutely needs to get proper help from mental health professionals, and that there’s no way I can just “love her into loving herself” like I’ve been trying to do.
I read a webpage written for people in a relationship with a person with BPD, and I encountered the term “Detaching with Love”. I instantly liked this term a lot – it sounds a lot better to me than “Harden your heart”. The idea is that allowing yourself to be enmeshed with the person with BPD is actually really harmful to both of you, and that the most loving thing you can do, both for yourself and the other person, is to detach yourself to the point where you’re not riding the emotional roller coaster with them anymore and can maybe remain in their life as a safe and stable peripheral person, but you’re not living all the ups and downs with them. That sounds pretty nice to me, and I know it would be a lot better for her if I could just be a stable anchor point in her life rather than a fellow passenger on the roller coaster, which I have been too often this past year.
Anyway, a few hours after the text exchange which ended with me agreeing to just leave her alone, she called me and we ended up talking for a long time – she apologized sincerely for how she made me feel this week and explained in a lot of detail the emotional turmoil and inner conflict she’s been going through and how it’s been playing out in our relationship and how much she hates being so out of control of her own emotions. The best thing she told me is that she’s going to be starting therapy this week and has a referral to see a psychiatrist as well. I didn’t bring up my thoughts about BPD today, but I’ll bring it up to her next week prior to her appointments, and go through the symptoms with her and see if she feels comfortable bringing it up to the psychiatrist to see if he agrees and if so, can get her started with the proper treatments that could help her. She told me once that she’s seen a lot of mental health providers over the years but she gets scared and never really opens up to them and as a result they’ve never been able to really help her, so maybe I can give her a little nudge toward getting the proper types of treatment that would get her closer to finding some inner peace and happiness. That’s my hope anyways.
Hi LiS,
that fits my thought that she doesn’t sound completely sane at times.
It’s great that she‘s seeking help.
I just think you should step back from the notion that you should help her. I know you say you do but then there‘s talk about being a stable anchor point and nudging her towards treatments etc.
Nudging is ok, but you are not the person who should play the central role of an anchor point in her life. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s not healthy for both of you. You‘ve got a family to think of and she has to learn to get on by herself and her family, or look for friends with whom she‘s not entangled in a limerent hot/cold story.
Again sorry if I’m blunt.
LiS,
That seems to make so much sense. How does this change your response to her? Does it help you feel less offended or hurt thinking this is her issue and not yours?
Once I realized my family members were diagnosed with a similar thing, it made it easier for me to detach from the emotional instability they caused, even though I cared about them. The thing is, you can’t want them to get help more than they do. They have to want it, or else healing and progress aren’t likely to happen.
I hope she wants to get the help she needs. 💙
If she is a borderline, my recommendation is to stay away from her.
I have two professional opinions, not diagnoses, that LO #2 was a borderline. One actually knew her when we were dating. Both of them said I was lucky that she didn’t marry me and if I ever became available, don’t re-engage her.
They can really tug at your heart strings but as one of the therapists who opined on LO #2 put it,
“It’s not that borderlines can’t change, it’s that they usually don’t.”
No professional that I ever spoke to about LO #2 said that cutting her off was the wrong idea. There was one White Knight who thought she was a miserable, pitiable person and I was wrong to give up on her. Kind of like Gollum.
But, this is something that you’ll have to watch play out for yourself.
Keep us posted.
@MJ
Well, you both are single, so why not enjoy it, and see where it goes? 💙
I am. Fingers crossed for something positive.
Well… I had my talk with LO about BPD and went through all the symptoms with her, and she agreed that this fit perfectly and explained so much in her life (she’d actually wondered about it on her own in the past, but there’s just so much stigma around this diagnosis that she never wanted to really consider it), and later this week she spoke about it with her new therapist and also scheduled an appointment with a psychiatrist next month to see if he agrees with the diagnosis and can help further. So that’s all positive.
And… when we spoke on the phone earlier this week to discuss BPD, we ended up staying on the phone together for almost 5 freaking hours, talking about everything imaginable until the wee hours of the morning (both of our SOs being away that night), and we’ve texted and talked warmly on the phone nearly every day since then. Additionally, I’ve found myself consuming every podcast and written word I can find about what it’s like to live with BPD and how to be a good support person to someone with the condition. All of which is to say… I know it’s not the “right” answer, and I know it’s not going to be popular with anyone here, but I can honestly say that I know with certainty that I’m just not going to run off from her and leave her to deal with things on her own. I’m sorry, but I’m just not going to do that. As immoral and unethical as it may be, she and I have been in a meaningful and deep relationship for quite awhile now; she means a lot to me, and I truly love and care about her and I honestly don’t have any interest in just walking away from her now.
What I am going to do is to consciously work on recalibrating our relationship in a couple of ways:
1) I’m going to stop being the boundary pusher and counting on her to be the boundary enforcer. Yes, this has worked so far (and I never pushed boundaries super hard, and there were times that I did also act as boundary enforcer when she was in her weaker moments), but these past few weeks I’ve truly realized how much she struggles with temptation and with emotional regulation in general, and how foolish it would be for me to continue to outsource the boundary enforcement to her… and also how unfair this really is to her. So I’m going to be better at not pushing boundaries and stronger at enforcing the boundaries we currently have.
2) I’m going to work on just being as stable and reliable as possible, and not getting caught up in all of the emotional highs and lows that she experiences (and that I’ve been experiencing along with her for the past 18 months). I had an image the other day of her being on a boat in a storm, riding the waves up and down and being blown this way and that by strong winds, barely keeping her boat upright and afloat. Too many times in the past 18 months, I’ve let myself become a passenger on the boat with her, riding the waves and being blown about in the winds of her emotions, which doesn’t do either of us any good. How much better would it be for me to focus instead on being a lighthouse and a safe harbor for her, somewhere she could come for support or for rest from time to time while navigating the storms of her own life? To me, this would mean not getting too excited when things seem warm and nice between us, and not doing things that I know will fan the flames of her feelings… and conversely, not getting all distraught and anxious when she pulls away and needs her distance. There’s going to be times when she needs to just do things on her own, to fight her own battles and sink or swim on her own efforts, and I need to just let her – but I also want to always be there for her if she needs some words of comfort or a helping hand. Easier said that done of course! But that’s my goal and what I’m going to work towards. And my hope would be that I can play a role in her healing journey without suffering too much turmoil in my own life.
LiS,
so, my blunt talk didn’t have any effect:)
Well. I think the common response would be that this is a recipe for disaster long-term, that nothing gold can stay and one of you will experience a shift in what you/she wants/needs/feels , and this will upset the balance not only of your relationship etc etc.
Also, there would be the opinion of quite a lot of people that this is basically cheating on your SO (blunt again, sorry), since she doesn’t know anything about this very important obligation to support another woman you willingly took on (the obligation. Sorry for the grammar.)
I have to say that I do understand that this feels not like cheating and feels like it’s nothing to do with your SO at all, that this is a part of life that doesn’t take anything from her, but would still upset her and that’s why you don’t tell her. I don’t want to say that’s right, I just say that I felt/ feel the same .
For example, my pain now is something where I almost turned to my SO for his precious advice, because my feelings for LO don’t have anything to do with my love for SO, and I see my SO as a neutral and even superior person in this story, but I didn’t because he might not feel that way and it feels unfair to him.
What I admire is your resolution (both of you) not to cross boundaries. I do have these resolutions but I‘m much weaker and although I hadn’t ever actively tried to cross them, there were numerous times when my LOs would have just had to make a move and all resolutions would have vanished. So yes, I definitely recommend reinforcing boundaries from both sides so that one can be strong when the other is weak.
The question is, how much resources do you have, how much can you be there for your LO without detracting from your energy and attention for your family. I mean you seem to have a lot to give, since you even helped me significantly with a flick of a finger, so to say. (Thank you again, and I can tell you here in this safe place, I love you very much for that, it’s more than many friends of mine ever gave me.)
It’s impressive, but can you keep it up, and can you stay that superior and eternally patient being that never gets shaken by LO‘s emotional up and downs, and be there for her while your kids might also get into emotional turmoil in their teens and whatnot, and where are your priorities then?
But since I‘m a bit of a dreamer and also move a bit outside conventions with my emotions and my feelings of right and wrong, I wish you very much that it all works out for you like you envision.
Hi Mila, thank you for the understanding combined with the thought-provoking questions! And sorry not to take your blunt advice… doesn’t it just frustrate you so much when the guys you care about don’t listen to what you know is best for them? 😉
I guess I feel the same as you wrote, that I tend to move outside of conventions and I follow my own convictions even when they’re out of step with what most people would advise or even condone… Nisor posted the lyrics to Sinatra’s “My Way” earlier today, and I can identify with that song a lot – there’s been a lot of instances in my life where there’s one clear path in front of me that I clearly “should” follow, but then I feel these strong inner convictions leading me in a different direction and that’s what I ultimately follow, and most of the time it’s turned out to be the right decision. I’ve read that’s an INFP/ISFP thing, as our primary cognitive function is Fi, or Introverted Feeling, meaning that we’re driven primarily by inner convictions rather than societal norms/expectations (or logic or rational thought or anything else)
In this case… I just can’t turn away from LO. If she ever truly decides that she wants me out of her life, then I’m gone – I’d never want to be somewhere where I truly wasn’t wanted. But as long as she sees a role for me in her life, and especially as long as she sees me as a valuable source of support, I’m not going to abandon her. I just can’t do it and still feel ok about myself. I’ve been studying a lot about BPD recently – one of the key features of the condition is that people with BPD have a core fear of being abandoned and rejected, and also an expectation that everyone that everyone close to them will ultimately abandon them once they realize how flawed and unlovable they actually are. For me to spend a year and a half telling LO how much I care about her and basically making a lot of promises to always be there for her, only to now be like “sorry, it’s been nice but I gotta bounce”… even though it would be justifiable, even “right”, and even though she’d certainly understand it and accept it, I think it would be really harmful to her, could undo all the progress she’s made in the past years and then some. And I really, really, really don’t want to harm her.
I’m still at a place where I can justify this whole thing to myself in moral terms. If I had to give an account of my good and evil deeds at the end of my life, I’d be at peace with saying “yes, I developed really strong feelings for someone who wasn’t my wife. I spent years talking to her without my wife’s knowledge. I loved her and cared for her in almost the same way I’d feel for a spouse. I helped her achieve some of her educational and professional goals, I helped her improve her mental health and heal from some traumas… I provided her with a empathetic ear and frequent heartfelt words of affirmation, I tried to consistently show her that she was valuable and worthy of love, and tried to help her to learn to love herself. And I never took advantage of her feelings for any of my own sexual gratification, and I never took anything away from my wife and family because of my relationship with her.”
Of course, this all depends on maintaining the current boundaries, right? One slip, one moment of weakness, and this instantly transforms into just another stupid story about a pathetic, self-serving middle-aged married guy who started screwing his attractive assistant (Lord knows the world doesn’t need any more of those stories!) and then none of the other stuff matters anymore and none of it is remotely noble or good or justifiable in any way. As Dylan sang, “to live outside the law you must be honest”. The only way this thing has a chance at ending up on the good side of my life’s ledger book is for me to be diligent about maintaining discipline and boundaries even when it’s really freaking tempting to do the wrong thing.
The other day on the phone, LO told me that any time she started feeling really tempted with me, one of the main things that always holds her back is thinking that “if we ever did do that, you’d immediately fall so far down in my eyes… you’d be no better than everyone else I’ve ever known, and I’d lose all the faith I’ve had that there’s at least one truly good person in this world who cares about me”. I told her then that there were two things that always kept me from giving in to temptation with her – first and foremost my love for my own wife and my horror at the thought of ever hurting her that badly, and secondly my love and respect for LO means that I never want to contribute to her becoming a person that she absolutely hates and could never forgive.
So that’s where I’m at right now… still trying to walk this narrow path of being the best person I can be for the two women that I care for without hurting either of them. I do have faith that it’ll work out IF AND ONLY IF I can manage my own desires and temptations and stick to the boundaries – and I want it to work out so badly that I really do believe that I will stay on track and not ever give in.
Hi LiS,
„ doesn’t it just frustrate you so much when the guys you care about don’t listen“
yeah, hell it does, but at least you don’t send me freaking pictures😂
I‘m glad that you see, as you told Frederico, that you are doing this for yourself too. Otherwise it would be just too goody- goody for me and not believable.
It just sounds like a smooth path- caring for her, her being thankful- but it won’t be, you know that. She will pull back again , or she‘ll suddenly decide to get divorced and be with you, I don’t know, everything is possible, it’s not just you in the equation.
But I do understand you.
This site is about fighting limerence, and the goal is to get rid of these feelings and also of the LO in best case. Which is good and necessary.
But under all that limerent crap are still real people and can be real connections. Not all of the feelings are from the devil.
I understand feeling responsible for your LO after years of supporting.
I know people will call me an enabler, but I think you are simply not able to force yourself to end it now. You would feel utterly bad and come back and that would be even worse because it would take credibility and energy from the one time you will really be able to get away for good.
If this time ever comes, but it might. Life will change for her at some point, I think, and then it might all change.
@LiS,
That’s nice that you are guiding her to get help… but what’s your endgame plan here with this emotional affair?
Hi Limerent Nurse,
If I’m being 100% honest… I don’t have an endgame plan. I’m actually ok with it going on forever. If I spent the rest of my life talking to LO on the phone for a couple hours a week and texting each other throughout the week with words of encouragement and little jokes to make each other smile, and it never goes any further than that… I’m personally ok with that even though I understand that it’s morally and ethically wrong. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I honestly don’t know. But that’s how I feel and I can’t pretend to feel any differently.
Thanks Mila!
I just saw the scene in Jesus of Nazareth when he says “he who is without sin cast the first stone,” so no, I’m not going to condemn you. 🙂 I understand.
Hello LiS
A rhetorical question but one which I recently asked myself, albeit in very different circumstances.
Who are you doing this for?
Who are you really doing this for?
All very best,
f
Hi Frederico, great question, well put!
I’m doing it for her. And I’m doing it for me.
I’m doing it for her because she’s a sweet, good hearted person who got dealt a really shitty hand in life and has so much pain inside of her, and in nearly 40 years of life she’s never had anyone really care about her or support her or make her feel like she’s worth anything or like she actually matters, and I feel like she deserves to feel loved and cared for and she deserves to have someone give her a helping hand along her way.
And I’m doing it for me because I get a lot of good feelings from helping her out and being there for her, and when she tells me how much my support means to her, it feels really damn good. And also because when she’s having a good period in life and is feeling good about herself and is happy, she’s just one of the most delightful people I’ve ever known in my life – she just has this warmth and joy and energy that feels so good to be around, and I really do savor the moments that I get to spend with her just enjoying who she is.
So again – it’s partly for her, and partly for me. Which I suppose makes it just like most other relationships that people have with each other.. there are very few completely selfish nor completely selfless relationships in the world, and most relationships are a combination of both.
Thank you for the reply, LiS. I think I now understand your situation much better than I did before.
Lost in Space, you said something that I would like to address. You believe that your LO has never had someone care about her the way that you do.
“ she’s never had anyone really care about her or support her or make her feel like she’s worth anything or like she actually matters”
I don’t believe this is true, but I suspect she believes it.
If she has Borderline Personality Disorder, then you are probably seeing a common symptom which is called splitting. BPD’s see people as angels or demons. Her difficult behavior probably caused other people to develop boundaries with her that she doesn’t like so now she sees those people as bad guys. She isn’t telling you about all of the diligent efforts that her family has made on her behalf over the years because she doesn’t focus on the good. When someone doesn’t play by her rules, she feels like a victim and the other person is all bad. IT IS EXHAUSTING! If my two borderlines were love interests, I would have walked away a long time ago. I can’t leave my sister or my daughter so I have to use strong boundaries and I accept that sometimes they view me as a monster.
I have been asking myself why on earth you would volunteer to emotionally support a borderline. YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF HEALING HER. My best guess is that it’s never boring with your LO because borderlines are never boring. And I think she feeds your desire to be a hero. So maybe ego and thrill seeking are dominant characteristics of your shadow side. Maybe you could work on them in healthier ways.
Just know that when she flips the switch and you are a demon instead of an angel, she will make your life a living hell. Your best escape is to BE BORING.
Having said all that, if you really did get her into a DBT program, you rock! Seriously, I wish someone could talk my sister into participating in DBT. It’s the only thing that works for borderline personality disorder.
Good luck!
Very valid point, Lovisa!
While I don’t know anything about BPD and you know many things firsthand and can be of help here, I also have had sometimes the thought (being in my current rumination about the stories one tells him/herself about LOs, relationships etc that are not always synchronized with reality) that there might be some narratives on the side of his LO about her life that don’t completely mirror reality, although they seem perfectly real for her (and thus for LiS).
I might be completely wrong of course.
I feel this boils down to a lot of us limerent males wanting to be that guy. The guy that the other guy wasn’t. Stepping up to the plate. It is a self serving affirmation that we are the “good” guy. But are we really? Or is it the smiles, laughs and “thank you’s” that we are after?
I have to be vigilant with my new Lady Friend that I don’t go down that rabbit hole again. And sweet Mother of Mary does she harbor a boat load of triggers for me. But do I want to do better by her for her sake and benefit; or mine?
Lovisa raises many many good points with that post. I think this is about what makes us as Men, feel good. Or at least better. Unfortunately for LiS, his situation may never resolve, if he doesn’t decide trying to fix her won’t actually work. I give him credit for making the effort though. I know the praise she gives probably makes him feel all cozy and warm on the inside.
Like Brother Adam, I am finding my Lady Friend somewhat damaged coming out of her last relationship. So I try to be better for her. I check in on her often at work and ask if she needs anything. She always thanks me. I bring her fresh fruit and she tells me how sweet I am to consider her. I compliment how I like her hair in double french braids and she smiles like the Sun.
I’m drawn to the high of her appreciation and it just makes me feel good all over to be able to tell her. Since we’re both single and available, it’s a nice thought to think it can only go up from here.
Hi Lovisa, thanks for your comments the other day – I appreciate hearing from someone else who had experience with loved ones with BPD. And I think you certainly may be right, that I’m on the good side of a split for the time being, and that could change anytime, and also that her perceptions of no one else ever caring about her are likely inaccurate and related to other people in her life being on the bad side of splitting. At the same time, she’s told me a lot of specific things that, unless completely fabricated, make it pretty clear that both of her parents were flat-out physically and verbally abusive throughout her childhood and adolescence, and that her SO has always been emotionally abusive and controlling. Of course, it’s totally possible that she has fabricated/imagined/greatly embellished all of this stuff… how could I ever actually know? But you’re very correct that I need to at least always proceed with caution and not take everything she says at face value and not get caught up in the idea of “I’m the only person she has.”
You wrote “I have been asking myself why on earth you would volunteer to emotionally support a borderline”…
I guess I’d say that it would be different if we’d been having this conversation a couple years ago when I first started getting close with her. But now the question isn’t “do I want to start emotionally supporting her?” Because I’ve already been emotionally supporting her for the past year and a half. So now the question is “do I want to withdraw that emotional support, or do I want to continue to try to provide it but in more appropriate and stable ways?”
And that leads me back to the idea of recalibrating our relationship with me trying to be a stable, reliable and supportive friend but not doing romantic things to stir up more feelings in her, and not getting all caught up in the ups and downs of whether she’s talking to me or not any given week. And also to continue to encourage her to work with professionals on her mental health and not use me as her therapist, because clearly that can’t work.
The good thing is that she really is interested in getting better, and has good insight into her own struggles and really isn’t in denial or resistant to getting help. She did an intake for a DBT program last week but they have a 6 month wait list, so I was helping her look for other options that might have sooner openings. And she’s meeting with a psychiatrist soon that I know is really good – hopefully he can confirm if this diagnosis is even correct and helps with treatment as well.
Finally, I’d say that all people with BPD are different, and not all exhibit the same degree of “borderline behaviors” that are so troublesome to everyone around there. I was reading that there are four basic subtypes of BPD – I’d say that if she does have BPD, she’d be in the “Quiet BPD” subtype, where most of the emotional chaos is directed inward and not towards other people – these folks tend to withdraw and beat up on themselves much more often than they make life hell for others. That’s what I’ve seen from her repeatedly for the past years. But still… I agree that I need to be really careful to limit opportunities for everything to go bad, and again in my mind that means just being really stable and consistent and conscious of boundaries (interestingly, she’s been VERY diligent about boundaries during our whole relationship – I know she pushes them in her mind but has never once tried to actually push them in really life, and so far I’ve never really had to enforce any boundaries on her)
Lost in Space, I am afraid that you are going to learn this lesson the hard way. If I went back a few years to the Lovisa who didn’t understand Borderline Personality Disorder, I couldn’t have talked her out of supporting her daughter or her sister. That Lovisa wouldn’t have listened. She naively believed that she could help. You seem to be in the same mindset. I think your intentions are good. I HOPE your LO doesn’t destroy your reputation or relationships when she decides that you are evil (which of course you are not evil, but she might believe that you are). I want you to remember something…
BE BORING
DON’T ENGAGE
BE BORING
DON’T ENGAGE
You will need that advice someday. Hopefully, your LO will lose interest in you because it is your best escape.
I would like to address a few things from you post.
You said that your LO describes her parents as, “…flat-out physically and verbally abusive…” and her SO as, “…emotionally abusive and controlling…” If you asked my sister about her family today, she would have similar things to say. Most of us are on the demon side of her split right now. She also speaks of her ex-husband as narcissistic and abusive. She has some crazy stories about him that I used to believe until I got his side of the story. The way my sister describes my dad is shocking. It is also not true. Sometimes I wonder if she knows she is lying or if she really believes the stuff she says.
I understand that you have already been emotionally supporting your LO prior to learning that she might have BPD. I understand that you feel somewhat committed. I promise that I am committed to my daughter and sister, but I had to learn special boundaries with both of them. I learned those boundaries the hard way. I will probably make lots of mistakes going forward, too, but I will try to use good boundaries because they benefit everyone. I will give you an example of a boundary. WARNING, you will not like me after you hear this…
I found my BPD daughter sitting in the hall crying after school. She said that someone at school bullied her. In the past, she made up stories for attention so I wasn’t sure if this was real or not. In the past, I gave her attention for her stories and so she made up more stories. It was endless and exhausting and I totally believed her. Unfortunately, I was teaching her to make up stories because I believed them and comforted her. I didn’t want to do that any more. It’s not good for me or her. So I assessed the situation. I couldn’t tell if she was lying. I said, “Honey, I’m sorry you had a rough day. I care that you are sad, but I can’t help you with this. You make stuff up sometimes and I can’t tell if this story you are telling is real. I’m really sorry, but I can’t help you.” Then I stepped over her legs and kept walking. I HATED doing that. If it had been one of my other daughters, I would have snuggled her and listened to everything. But that is the wrong response with this child.
Anyway, it sounds like you have given this a lot of thought. I hope this woman doesn’t destroy your family. You really don’t know what she will do if she gets angry. When my sister decided that I was a bad guy, I asked my SO to block her phone number because the vile things she was texting about me to my brothers and father were humiliating and I didn’t want my SO to see what my sister was saying (all untrue by the way). Sure enough, she went after him too. She group texted defaming things about me to my SO and daughters in that group. I just never know what level she will sink to when she is angry. Your LO might not be as vengeful as my sister, but most people have never seen this side of my sister. My sister is a personal trainer. She is bubbly, fun and full of positive affirmations when in public. You would never guess what her dark side looks like.
Best of Luck, Lost in Space!
Wow Lovisa,
That sounds so hard on you. I‘m impressed what you took on and endure.
Hi Lovisa, I’ve been away from LwL for a few days but wanted to make sure to respond to your last post to me. It’s given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate you sharing from your own experience. Frankly, the thought of ending up on the bad side of a split with LO suddenly turned against me is terrifying – I’ve put myself in a position where she could easily do serious damage to my marriage, my family and my career. Yet of course I can’t make myself truly believe that could ever happen, can’t actually imagine that happening (everything inside me is screaming “no way, she’s not like that, she could never do that to me!!)… but if I think logically and step outside of my feelings, I know that it is certainly possible and it could be catastrophic.
What would you do if you were in my position? Everything’s so much more difficult because of my own feelings of course, but let’s put aside my feelings for a minute and take a cold, analytical look at my situation. If I were to suddenly withdraw all the affection and closeness and tell her that we have to stay away from each other, after I’ve spent the last year and a half reassuring her over and over that I’m always here for her, and given that fear of abandonment is such a prominent part of BPD, wouldn’t that be pretty likely to trigger the bad split that I need to avoid? The way I’m seeing it, the best route forward to me (given all of the inadvisable things I’ve done already that I can’t undo) would be to continue being warm and friendly and emotionally available, but above all to be very consistent and stable and, as you said, boring. Not getting carried away with any romantic gestures or declarations of love, not getting pulled into all the ups and downs of her emotional states, not freaking out and trying to win her affection back when she withdraws from me… but just being really steady and acting as a supportive but platonic friend, even if we both know that’s not really how I feel. Does that sound like a reasonable path forward? Or do you think I need to be firmer with boundaries, even if it could cause some risk of blowback at first? Do you think I’m just finding another way to justify continuing this EA because really I just don’t want to end it?
Finally, I just want to say I really feel for you in that story about your daughter. I experience miniature versions of this every day at work, when I have to tell my patients some variation of “I care about you, I believe that you really are struggling/suffering… but I just can’t do that thing you’re asking me to do. I’m sorry, but I just can’t.” It hurts my heart even in that scenario, and I can only imagine that the feelings would be magnified 100-fold when it’s your own daughter. I really really feel for you.
Hi Lost in Space, I have been pondering your plan forward. I like it. I also think you are right that rapidly pulling back could cause problems. Can I add a little to your plan? Can you phase out your reliance on LO? I hope that makes sense. Can you continue with your plan to support her, but slowly pull away from being supported by her? It’s just a thought. I actually think your plan is great as is.
Thank you for your kind words about my daughter. Her struggles are very hard to live with. I’ll tell you the latest. Last week, my daughter’s closest friend (who happens to be a boy), told her that he just wants to be a little bit friends with her. She was devastated. She called my SO and asked to be checked out from school because she couldn’t stop crying. I got the back story from my daughter and it sounded like she overwhelmed him when she told this boy about the plans she had for the two of them over the summer. She talked, I listened and then I suggested that the boy was trying to be kind, but he probably felt like he needed to scale down their relationship. She seemed fine, happy even, when we finished talking. That night we could hear her sobbing downstairs in her bedroom. I thought she needed time to work through her big feelings. Well… on the first day of our family camp out, she wore a short sleeve shirt because it was hot. I saw her arm. It was covered in fresh cuts. I felt nauseous. I said, “Hey Babe, those look like fresh cuts.” I have to be emotionless and matter-of-fact when we talk about these things. She looked embarrassed and said, “Yes, they are fresh.” I asked, “The other day when we heard you crying in your room, is that when you did this?” She said, “Yes.” I looked her in the eyes and got a little stern and said, “I want you to come upstairs and be around other people next time you feel like doing that.” She said she would. Oh it makes me so sick! I wish she wouldn’t cut herself, but I can’t stop her either. We have safeguards in place and she went for a long time without doing it. She ended up tracing the cuts with a black sharpie and she made pictures out of them so they weren’t noticeable.
Anyway, my daughter’s behavior isn’t the boys fault. Her feelings are not his responsibility either. He has been her safety blanket for a long time and I appreciate what he has done, but it was time for him to pull back. He didn’t do anything wrong. My daughter didn’t handle it well, but that is on her, not him. This isn’t relevant to your situation, I’m just rambling on and on because parenting is really hard and it’s nice to have someone to talk to about it.
Sorry, Lost, I’m not sure where I’m going with this. To summarize, I like your plan.
First time poster here. Married with kids. This thread resonates with me although some aspects are very different.
I’m ending and EA and during the EA, I’ve experienced exactly these flips from being perceived by LO as somebody better than any other man to monster worse than usual bad guys around, just playing with her for fun… (This isn’t unfounded, I behaved horribly to both her and SO during the EA, but after identifying what I did wrong, I do my best to not repeat it.) Also relatable is the unwillingness from both sides to go NC and my need to emotionally support her, because she has her deal of shitty things from life, too, and it makes me feel good to be useful.
All in all, a feeling within me grew over some time that if I was already single, I would go for a true partners relationship with my LO but *that it would require no other commitments and I would still be unsure if I had enough emotional strength*.
The LO has recently told me that she accepted my (also recent) decision not to go for her but that she wants to remain friends, therefore she wants to learn it. Let’s see how it goes. Can I be available for LO without sparking her fantasies or hopes of us getting together? I’ll definitely try to move to be predictable to the point of boring (thanks, Lovisa!) but dependable friend, let’s see how this will go.
I do want to add–One thing to keep in mind is, is the support the same as you would give to a close platonic friend? The Net has a lot of lists–On the lists of, “Is a married man in love with you,” is usually the item, he’ll ignore family obligations etc. to be with you. I see that and think, If my LO did that I wouldn’t be able to love him! Even with reciprocation, I’ve noted that both LO and I put our own families and other obligations first. At times it can feel frustrating and depressing to me, but I know that it’s better that way. It doesn’t mean I feel for him any less; it just minimizes the damage being done.
Hi Serial Limerent!
No, the support I give her is above and beyond what I would give to a platonic friend. She is more than a friend to me – less than a spouse, but more than a friend. I can’t pretend it’s otherwise.
I do put my own wife and family first, and she does the same with her SO and and kids, and we both respect that for each other. And you’re right, it can be so frustrating sometimes! Are there times I really want to talk with her in the evening times or the weekends? Times I really wish that she and I could just go out to lunch together or go for a walk together? Of course! I hate how little opportunity we get to talk and even less opportunity to be together in person, always wish it was more… but at the same time I know that our boundaries are the only thing that keeps this thing from exploding and destroying at least a half-dozen lives, so I respect the boundaries and she does too.
Because of our boundaries, the actual amount of time I spend per week on LO is pretty small – maybe 1-2 hours a week talking on the phone and a cumulative hour of texting. That’s a max of 3 hours per week – an amount of time that can easily be absorbed into my scheduled without impacting SO or the kids or my work (usually I just carve out time for LO by stealing it from myself, ie working through my lunch break or waking up an hour early to do the work I didn’t do the day before because I was talking with her).
PS – my LO never has to google “signs that a married man loves you” because I’ve told her a bunch of times that I love her, in exactly those words. She’s never told me that she loves me, but she did tell me “whatever you feel, I feel 10 time stronger” so by extrapolation that means she loves me a whole heck of a lot.
LiS, real love and care would be releasing and freeing your LO from limerence. Your “support” will keep her from finding someone who is actually available. I know she is married but your “support” isnt helping her to make a decision about her marriage. Potentially they could either make their marriage work or if she leaves she potentially could meet someone who can actually be with her. You are not that person. Its actually really selfish to keep each other like this. Real love and care says that eventhough this is really painful for me, your wellbeing is more important than getting nice feelings, I have to let you go so that you can find real happiness.
I really dont want be to judgmental but there is no other way of saying this. This is just incredibly unfair and disrespectful to your SOs. Dont they deserve to know the truth, to get to decide and have a say over what is happening? I am really sorry that your LO has had a difficult life but thats doesnt justify going behind another woman’s back. As a woman I cant imagine messing with someone else’s husband because life has been hard.
I really hope it ends well for all of you
Going back to the original article did anyone else notice DrL writes “instrusive thoughts” ?
The typo made me smile and think of Sammy or Grego saying it out loud in an Aussie accent for some strange reason!
Do Aussies still say “Struth” ?
@Imho
Struthfully, you shouldn’t ask such instrusive questions on this forum
😆
@Imho.
Yes, speaking as a proud Aussie, I’m sure all my limerent thoughts were “instrusive” and not “intrusive”! 😁
Aussie still sometimes say “|struth” – also spelt “strewth” – but usually it’s for comic effect.
One of my close male friends at school in the 90s said “struth” quite a lot.
“Struth! The bunsen burner is still too hot to touch.”
“Struth! Nobody volunteered to buy me a meat pie for morning tea!”
“I forgot to do my Maths homework – for the last six weeks. Struth!”
“Struth! The drawstring just broke on my budgie smugglers, and I still have fifty metres left to swim.”
Hi Snow,
The scrolling got too much for me, I answer you here.
I didn’t think at all that you called me demanding, don’t worry!
I know what you mean. But even in dancing there’s one person who leads at a time, maybe the other at another time.
I just thought it would be easier for him to decide on a certain date instead of having to think about dates himself.
But maybe I’m thinking too much of my passive LO. You know what’s best in your case.
I don’t think my LO would ever shock me. He’s too passive and predictable.
The only thing I should prepare for is myself blurting out stuff I shouldn’t, trying to establish a real and honest connection and talk about his/our future.
Well, maybe that’s actually not that bad an idea. Last meeting I didn’t take control at all and the result was a bland superficial hour. If I want to talk about important things, I have to start it myself. I’ll think about what I would want to talk about before his decision day.
Mila,
If a person wants or is wiling to see you or accept your lunch invitation, s/he will find time no matter what, especially during a vacation break; otherwise, s/he will find any excuse to “nicely” rejects it!
LO’s indecision on a specific tea/lunch date IS an answer — an hesitation whether to take the last one with me. (Regardless whether he might be busy with his family and packing for the big move). I’ll be officially his ex-colleague tomorrow. I already did what I wanted to do this past Monday (left a little card and a small gift in his mail slot), in case I will never see him again. So I’m not so anxious now, although still 5% wish a in-person goodbye. I will NOT push for it!
I’m glad to hear that your LO’s any potential behaviors in the next couple of weeks or the future would not shock you. That’s a good place to be. So you could relax when you meet him up next week.
I agree with you that one has to initiate actions if s/he thinks such actions, e.g. “talk about important things”, are important to one’s wellbeing; go ahead and do it! Suppressing it might bring one regrets later.
I think I can empathize how you’re feeling now, since we are more or less in the similar boat, only that my LO was not my friend before this LE, and I know about him so little… He was just a bystander, carrying my inner phantom for a while (already separated the two last year in April), now I feel sad about his physical departure as a realistic LO and a possible friend.
My phantom is within my system, spiritual, inspirational, and creative. I will not quiet IT down ever, but strive to keep IT alive and 💃 in my reality.
“I already did what I wanted to do this past Monday (left a little card and a small gift in his mail slot), in case I will never see him again. ”
So you did already what you needed to do for yourself !It’s a good place to be in, not really needing the last physical goodbye.
I don’t trust my moods on this any more, I managed to be so detached in the last weeks, and yesterday I was kind of suffering again because LO initiated texting and then didn’t answer to my reply. That’s his new thing: reading my reply almost immediately then not answering for at least 8 hours. Don’t know what’s that about, maybe also some plan of reduction of texts, or he was disappointed by my text or whatever, but the thing is, I shouldn’t care that much anymore.
With a bit of struggle I then managed to painfully hoist myself back on the wagon and abandoned now any plan to talk about anything meaningful next week. It’s futile, I guess. Maybe it’s best just to be kind and supporting in a more detached way, at least act that way, and not to try to get a final honest conversation. Just let go.
Maybe I‘ll change my mind or not, but I don’t want to put too much energy and thought into it anymore.
Sometimes I think that’s wrong because he‘s still one of my close friends and I shouldn’t shut him out suddenly, I should care more in a non- limerent way for his situation etc. But then I seem not to be up to it and I get hopeless and think I have to abandon this friendship for my own mental health.
Most probably I already destroyed most of the innocent friendship-base with my limerent antics, so maybe just write it all up as a loss🤷🏻♀️? Sorry, being a bit morose today, or vacillating between moods.
Mila,
Yes, there is no Need, but a Want/wish, to see LO one more time in person. When I initiate important actions, I imagine the worse possible scenario, eg. I’d be hit by a car tomorrow, or my plane to COO would drop or be shut down… and then I chose some un-regrettable, definitive action.
I can well understand your unstable moods and thoughts, I am also a sort of in the similar state, but I don’t resist my mostly pessimistic/sad thoughts as much as you seem to, but watch them without moral judgments at all.
I don’t plan to be this way or that way in terms of dealing with leaving LO, but leave unknowns to the future. I guess growing up in the East with a strong fatalistic transition, it’s easier for me to tolerate uncertainties, which still makes me anxious. When it reaches an intense level, I immediately sit down to meditate, and it DOES calm down my aroused neural system.
Your LO was your close friend of a decade, and if you still cherish the old meaningful, fun time, even if it has been tinted with LE pains, try to SAVE it somehow, which I would do if I were in your shoe!. I would not ABANDON it, no matter what! I have learned not to say a permanent“goodbye” to anyone, unless s/he an unmistakeable Narc or an arrogant/pompous prick. All human flaws/venerabilities are understandable, it’s just a matter of whether they’re tolerable or trauma triggering.
I wish more calmness with you as hours and days pass by….🫂
Hi Snow,
of course you are right and it was my goal all the time to keep the friendship. I guess we/I will manage that somehow because fortunately LO is a very loyal person who doesn’t give up on friends very easily, so he will still be there as a friend in spite of my or our both limerent shenanigans.
As far as it’s possible to stay friends over such a distance. Our friendship is deeply rooted in our work relationship, and since that will end, I‘m not sure if we can keep up any closeness, especially as he’s so unwilling/unable to speak about emotions, personal stuff etc.
It’s very possible that we‘ll be down to only Christmas and Birthday- texts in a couple of years.
Well, so be it.
Now I’m not sure if I should wish for you to meet your LO a last time or not.
But I think you‘ll be fine and strong either way after a while. Strange times now, but soon life will stabilize itself.
Dear fellow limerents,
I have to go on again a bit to quieten my mind. Don’t mind me.
I was in a good place but threaten a bit to slide back. I start to be curious what’s going on in his head again (I mean I know why I reduced texting and got a bit cooler generally, but why did he do it? Because I did, or did he have a reason of his own” etc etc), but I’m still ok, not too much yearning or panicking.
What bothers me is this:
I think from time to time I’m simply a bad person. I mean limerence is a devil and I fight my fight, but sometimes I really have mean thoughts or instincts.
Like now- I’ve the disturbing feeling that this threat of renewing limerence was triggered by his SO. I got riled by her lie or omission that LO will be in town next week (without her. Actually, she really lied, when I think about it), when I asked about it.
When I found out, there was this small competitive flame waking “so you don’t want me to meet your SO, well, watch me”. I mean, what’s that? She hasn’t done anything to me apart from rightfully being suspicious about our friendship.
Small ugly thoughts like this creep sometimes on me.
Also, I can watch my mind/gut/whatever seeking for the next LO. I really have to consciously stop myself. I have a colleague I got to talk to a bit more on this trip to the States. We were always getting along and our sense of humour matches excellently, which made for a few enjoyable encounters/texts on this trip. There’s a hint of glimmer on both sides, I guess, but he’s very cautious, and me too l, because I saw immediately that here’s the new limerence train I want to jump on.
In the past with LOs or even my SO this was where I started to take a bit of initiative- talking to them more etc, and I was always “successful “, but this time I simply shan’t and won’t.
But it’s really disheartening to see myself hankering after a new limerent experience. It’s so pathetic.
I am with you, watch for glimmers, and look the other way. Was doing well, thinking I am finally over it almost two years later and guess what…relapse!
Sorry to hear that! Your nick sounds familiar but I cannot place a story. Is it a relapse to the LO from two years ago or to limerence generally?
I haven’t shared my story, but briefly, I fell into Limerence/love with a colleague at work, and we are both married. Been grappling with my feelings of shame, despair, elation and euphoria. And I still feel like this made me come alive again, it was like my heart started beating again after years of Winter. Started a journey of self discovery and growth. Have tried distancing, no contact, and working on filling my life with meaningful activities. Limerence in general…yes, but more like work crushes, mild in comparison to this Hell on Earth. I read here every day, you are all familiar names though I rarely post, you are all so much better story tellers than me.
CamillaGeorge,
I could never write such a neat and precise short version of my limerence, so consider yourself a good story teller.
I also had wonderful alive moments and experiences from my LEs that I wouldn’t want to have missed, and with exception of one I’m still happy to have met these special people (that leaves two of them).
Still, I’ve had enough and i especially fear the limbo, the constant suffering without elation that follows the first high period of limerence.
Colleagues at work, all of them, by the way, so I get you. One left though, and the current one is about to leave.
Mila,
“What bothers me is this:
I think from time to time I’m simply a bad person. I mean limerence is a devil and I fight my fight, but sometimes I really have mean thoughts or instincts.”
All of us, every single one of us has a ‘Part X’. The part X can be our saboteur who leads us astray, the suspicious, jealous part that arises when thinking of LO’s and SO’s…
My own particular Part X makes me have one or two drinks over what I’d prefer to have on a Friday night. Seduce me with reverie about LO and I from years ago, even though I haven’t seen her for years.
You get the picture. We have to be alert to Part X’s machinations.
Yes, I struggle with that Part X all the time. 🙁
Credo, Serial Limerent
“All of us, every single one of us has a ‘Part X’. The part X can be our saboteur who leads us astray, the suspicious, jealous part that arises when thinking of LO’s and SO’s…“
Then why not try to accept, watch and live with this “part X” — an innate human nature, in maximum calmness, instead of moralizing or policing it and then being tormented/agonized by it in our head? It exists as a shadow contrast to our light, no? Without it, what’s the other side of the coin?
IMO, Jungian shadow-work and Buddhism compassion-practice could help “part X” “guilt”/“shame”….
@Snowiepheonix,
Here I was expecting a restful Sunday afternoon with my novel and I made the mistake of checking the comments…
“Then why not try to accept, watch and live with this “part X” — an innate human nature, in maximum calmness, instead of moralizing or policing it and then being tormented/agonized by it in our head? It exists as a shadow contrast to our light, no? Without it, what’s the other side of the coin?”
I did say about being alert to Part X. Perhaps the tone of my post was a religious dualistic feel of good/bad, right/wrong, light/dark. That’s not really my shtick. Of course, I fully agree with self-compassion, mindfulness practices. Though sometimes with meditation, we have to go in “hard”. Our (own) minds can take us down all sorts of rabbit holes.
It’s safer to practice meditation with a group or Sangha, where we’re able to check in with someone who’s experienced in walking this path a head of us.
**Forgive my moralistic/policing tone. Feel good spiritual practices are BS in my opinion. The dark night of the soul, yes, even in eastern practices is a real thing!
Part X may simply be the Shadow that has run amok!? I check in with my shadow daily, as he’s been neglected over the years and starts to fret if left to his own devices for too long.
p.s who is ‘Credo’ 😂🤣🙏
@Grego.
“p.s who is ‘Credo’ 😂🤣🙏”
Isn’t it obvious? “Credo” is your evil twin. “Grego” is the Jekyll side of your nature and “Credo” is the Hyde side of your nature. The automatic spellchecker never lies!! 😉🤣😜
@Grego,
It seems Credo was a Jungian slip, indeed…. 😵💫
That’s what I mean- usually one fights Part x like a devil that’s tempting you, something bad that stems from limerence or wherever and has to be ousted.
But what if it’s simply me? I cannot separate and get rid of myself. Maybe I’m just that, greedy and egotistical.
I’m not at all raised like that and considered myself a moral person until limerence struck. Now I get a different picture of myself and sometimes I don’t even care.
No, I do care, as you see.
But still, it makes me think. I’m just not that good a person. Dr L writes somewhere that he thinks we all are born with an inner instinct as to what is good and evil etc which gets overlayered by other stuff. I start thinking I’m quite mean in some aspects and that got overlayered by education etc.
I’m very sure that most of my colleagues and friends consider me as a highly moral and good person, some even look up to me and ask advice, and I do my best to be that person. But I really doubt if I’m the one they should come to, really.
Mila
Your arresting comment was still in my thoughts, while I looked at the Sunday paper, so I have come back to it.
Apologies if I’m intruding but I reckon I can tell, from reading some of your prolific posts over several months, that you are indeed a kind and good person. You are always thoughtful and empathetic to the plight of others here, for instance. Your self-doubt doesn’t seem justified to me although I think we all experience it in one way or another.
I keep hoping that your friend and LO will finally leave so that you can move on. Mind you, it’s not as easy and straightforward as that, of course, and everything seems to take ages. Perhaps your interesting job and the travelling will help you through, whatever happens.
f
Hi frederico,
in my current volatile mood your warm and caring post made my cry a bit.
Thank you!
I thought about who I‘d consider a good person. I found that people who understand the struggles with moral and being „good“, and can be empathetic because they had struggles of their own, seem to me „better“ than people who never did any wrong and are guided by rules and inherent moral all the time without any problems.
Maybe one needs to know the devil inside oneself to be a more complex and understanding person, maybe that’s what I should aspire to be.
You surely are on my list of these persons, being understanding even for your LO at all times and also having the right and empathetic words for LwL members in a crisis.
I‘ll continue struggling to the end that finally seems to come soon.
I hope you are doing well, Frederico! Burn the darn cards!
Hey Mila,
I believe in not just observing but also taking control. I am a bit stubborn that way, once my mind is made up. Being too open to everything, observing too much is unhelpful to me.
Also, I find that I need to create boundaries and stick to them. Sometimes other peoples boundaries are different from mine, they might even think I am flirting when I am simply (in my mind) being friendly. Luckily I pick up on that (usually) and back off if it happens. This LE was one where I picked up on it but didnt want to back off. And look where it led, several years of anguish (and euphoria) and a not so steep learning curve. Now I feel like I am reesablishing boundaries and I am taking control instead of letting events take their course. I really believe its a choice, not easy, but ultimately yes, under our own control. This helps me but may not help others and I believe that it does depend on which “stage” of limerence one is at. I couldnt have seen this at an earlier stage of my limerence. However, also, this has been my first LE so I was a rookie. I think control can be probably be practised with serial LEs. But one needs to also compensate for what the LE represents in one’s life …. not easy.
Hi Bewitched,
I think we are different here. I‘m bad at taking control and I think I’ve got boundaries, but suddenly they are gone in a crucial moment etc.
But I‘m in a much different place from years ago, I know now a lot more and I can see with open eyes how limerence can start, and now I hope I can nip it in the bud.
I speak about a possible next LE, obviously being a serial limerent. My current LE will die a natural death soon, I’m sure, the question is only, how I conduct myself until then.
I‘m quite lucky to have this kind of a deadline, and I admire you taking control without any of that and even in spite of your LO suddenly doing something encouraging. Keep it up and be my role model, Bewitched!
Which makes me suddenly wonder about ABCD.
And also about Problem Child.
@Grego,
Your pervious message did not sound religious dualistic, but the word “Saboteur” is used. If Part X in us is recognized and calmly, acceptingly observed (not being resisted or fought hard) as one of humanity shadows, it would not get so much force to sabotage our system.
“Of course, I fully agree with self-compassion, mindfulness practices. Though sometimes with meditation, we have to go in “hard”. Our (own) minds can take us down all sorts of rabbit holes.”
Some say that meditation could possibly take one into one’s dark shadow (It was believed that Jung himself once was almost in there and could not come back — losing his logical, realistic senses), but I haven’t experienced that personally. My mindful, concentrated meditation/Qi Gong, if successful, only helps circulate my energy/qi (which one can clearly felt through its flowing warmth), thus immediately reduces anxiety, fear, all sorts of stresses and bring a blissful or even giddy state. I never encountered “rabbit hole” like darkness…
“It’s safer to practice meditation with a group or Sangha, where we’re able to check in with someone who’s experienced in walking this path a head of us.”
The word “individuation” indicates individual nature of the process. No two people’s light and shadow are ever same, so individuation has to be unique, (in)effective to its own practitioner. Jung said his individuation process could not be copied, since no one else was/is Jung. I don’t think individuation/meditation has to be practiced in a group/Sangha, though it would feel safer as you points out.
“**Forgive my moralistic/policing tone. Feel good spiritual practices are BS in my opinion. The dark night of the soul, yes, even in eastern practices is a real thing!”
Well, perhaps you haven’t reached that “feeling good” physical and spiritual stage? As described above, without my daily mindful meditation, I could not pass a single day without headache, depression, anxiety, grief, or despair.
Mediation/Qigong is a form of Eastern Energy Medicine. DrL says there is no scientific measures yet to test Eastern “Energy Medicine” or Mysticism. Check this old post of mine:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-limerence-is-a-better-explanation-than-twin-flames/#comment-45700.
(I left several post there talking about my own meditation/QiGong experiences, I have no explanations of how but they worked!)
“Part X may simply be the Shadow that has run amok!? I check in with my shadow daily, as he’s been neglected over the years and starts to fret if left to his own devices for too long.”
In my case, once I realized that Part X was/is a part of my shadow (five years ago) and I stopped moralizing it, self-acceptance, self-compassion, self-confidence, sense of authentic Self began to set in. Then as I further my shadow work, Stoicism and Tibetan Buddhism, I sharply reduced dualistic mindset, decreasing judging myself and others in terms good/bed, right/wrong, etc. So the later part of my LE was experienced much less with its negative pull, although LE jealousy still caught me by surprise.
Nowadays I don’t feel anything right or wrong in my LE mind, they’re natural and humanistic. If any residual fear or anxiety still manifests, that’s because LO is already out of my sight, possibly forever, which triggered my old wounds of “abandonment” (mentally and emotionally neglected by narc parent).
In LwL, I get a sense that some posters heavily judge and“beat” themselves to death for having felt what LE brought them — instinctual desires, revivers, guilt, shame, self-degradation… which in turn cause more mental/spiritual pains that lead to some other addictions, e.g. heavy or uncontrollable drinking.
Based on Buddhism and Stoicism, true harms able to be done to others is physical — no killing/harming of sentient beings. Mental harms could be done ONLY by Oneself — one’s thoughts, emotions, perceptions and reactions to external (in)actions…. If one chooses not feel/think “wrong” (based on the cultural scripts) about activities in my head (no realistic activities), NO one else should and could make one feel/think wrong!
So I believe to rein limerence or other mental dis-eases— neurology related, is primarily to modify/change/transform one’s mindset, through increased knowledge and awareness (of one’s light and shadow), regular physical workout, and effective spiritual/philosophical practices (meditations/energy works, shadow work, Stoicism, Buddhism, etc…)
Why was it a mistake for you to check “the comments” on “a restful Sunday afternoon? “ 🙂
One thing that helped me when I still had to be in contact with LO was trying to make not think of what was real. I couldn’t dream or embellish conversations. Just what actually occurred and it was really quite boring. It helped a lot because I realized it was mostly a made up story in my mind.
An update. I am very close to going 5 months without seeing or talking to LO and I feel so much better. I want to be free more than I want anything to do with LO. I have moments and still look at social media but that has markedly decreased. I think I look for some kind of emotional regulation when I do that but it never helps. Trying to live with more purpose.
I know now there is hope of freedom. Don’t give up hope. Remember every choice leads to either freedom or bondage. Time also heals. Thanks to this group for support. I can’t spend too much time on this group because it is too much of a reminder when I was in so deep. I’m still trying to work through the guilt and shame but making progress in that as well.
„One thing that helped me when I still had to be in contact with LO was trying to make not think of what was real. I couldn’t dream or embellish conversations. Just what actually occurred and it was really quite boring. It helped a lot because I realized it was mostly a made up story in my mind.“
Very sound advice!
I‘m glad you are doing well!
Hi Mila,
I get you! We all have the Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hide syndrome. If I were to expose my somber and dark places of my mind , you’d be surprised… Limerence does away with all moral standards, it’s an all consuming force you can’t fight when you’re under its force. It takes great courage and strength, effort, to come out as a winner, but still wounded and large scars…It’s the mother of all battles! Never in my life have had such a challenge!
I don’t know why , but I don’t feel shame or guilt over it. Maybe it’s because I’m selfish? I don’t know, but the limerent mind knows what it wants, and it wants LO! Why deny it? As long as one keeps it to oneself… poor us! That’s so hard to do!
Take it easy and be self compassionate, your ride is still on the go until your LO decides his future at work. Hugs.
Nisor,
“Limerence does away with all moral standards, it’s an all consuming force you can’t fight when you’re under its force. “
Because the instinct for pair-bonding is DNA coded, not giving a damn about any manmade moral standards!
“I don’t know why , but I don’t feel shame or guilt over it. Maybe it’s because I’m selfish? I don’t know, but the limerent mind knows what it wants, and it wants LO! Why deny it? “
I no longer felt any shame or guilt but natural and humanistic, over my desire for LO’s physical being, as soon as I realized what my puzzling LE was (under a surrogate makeup parenting), pathetically through a surprising jealousy. My deep cptsd wound even blocked my instinctual senses and desires… damn it! 😡
Now, LO has gone with the wind of Fate… 🥹
Thank you Mila! I realize I worded it really poorly. I tried to only think of the interactions as they were not how I wanted them to be. I just wanted people to know that there is hope. I was in so much pain and did some stupid things. The intrusive thoughts were awful. The thought of LO now makes me feel a bit sick. I also know that I could be prone to it again. It is a horrible thing and is like a virus that lies dormant in us and can flare up in the right conditions. You will beat this! Take care
Hi Beth,
I know. Thoughts of my first LE make me a bit sick, too, and still I know that I could fall into limerence again for someone if I’m not super careful.
„ I realize I worded it really poorly. I tried to only think of the interactions as they were not how I wanted them to be.“ I understood it exactly that way! A very efficient tool, painful but necessary to beat limerence.
Hi Beth, glad you are doing well and hopefully your health also.
Mila, the fact that you are reflecting on your reactions and posting here shows you are a good person and trying to be better but it’s hard. Many of us have that monkey brain we are trying to tame. If everyone was perfect it would be a bit boring too. My list of areas for improvement is long. I’m currently trying to focus on just one thing at a time mental thought or physical task, to avoid the overwhelm and procrastination that ultimately leads to limbo.
Dear Imho and Nisor,
I don’t want to be perfect, I’m far from it. Also, it’s not only about limerence. Limerence just brings it to the light more.
What worries me are not imperfections but glimpses that I can be hard or uncaring or greedy. Only thinking of my own fun or wellbeing. I mean, from deep inside, and my control over it keeps me from acting on it, but it seems to be a conscious control from my brain, having learned what is „good“, not being born good.
But on the other hand, maybe that’s not true either or, both is true, I just have a good and bad side and my good side usually wins because it’s reinforced by upbringing and society?
Well, idle thoughts , maybe. I‘m just surprised by myself sometimes.
I‘m sure you both are better persons than me in that area.
Also, I procrastinated so much today, it’s really laughable:)
Even my thoughts about good and evil are procrastinating.
Mila,
I think if you can reduce the dualistic thinking mindset, your LE (or general) pains will be reduced shapely.
Each of us here in LwL or outside has our unique shadow and light parts, it’s just natural and humanistic. If we could face and accept/embrace them without moral judgement and hard resistance (even just in our head) , we’d obtain a lot more serenity and even joys.
Give it a try, you’ll see…
Snow,
I’m just scared that if I embrace them without judgement and resistance, I would behave like an asshole😅
Don’t worry too much about me, I‘m not really beating myself up about it. I just wonder about my own picture of myself that doesn’t match the real me.
Maybe if I get used to also having evil thoughts and accept them, I can control my reactions to them/behavior better.
Getting very tired here and not sure if I make sense, also I seem to spam the site with posts this evening- good night to you all!
Mila,
I did not make myself clear in my previous post to you. I meant not to judge oneself for having unwanted emotions or “evil” thoughts that are subconsciously originated from our instinctual drives, our DNA — how could we ever charge anyone’s instinctual emotions/desires??
I see that you, as well as some other posters (e.g Adam) seem to be shamed or “tormented” just by having those internal shadowy emotions or thoughts. There is absolutely NO thoughts or emotions crimes! Having them inside our head is nature, normal, and human, as long as we don’t actualize our dark thoughts in realistic actions.
I don’t believe baby are born innately knowing about good or bad, they are a pure energy form. If brought up wolf, they’d behavior like a wolf as the history has shown. The molding of culture could not and should not be ever underestimated.
Hope your sleep would make you feel better tomorrow!
Hi Snow,
I think my thoughts were triggered by an older post of Dr L where he wrote that he believes we have an innate knowledge what’s right or wrong and that gets overlayered by life, or something to that effect. Can’t remember which post. And watching some of my gut reactions like the one to LO‘s SO (competitive „yeah, watch me“)I wondered about it.
And I do actualize them sometimes.
But I understand what you mean.
Beth 2,
I haven’t forgot you and your story. Back 6 months ago or so, I knew my situation was to follow yours footstep…
“An update. I am very close to going 5 months without seeing or talking to LO and I feel so much better. I want to be free more than I want anything to do with LO.”
So glad to hear your progress, and you sound calm and confident, congratulations! To be honest, at this moment when LO just began to move out of the picture, my LE intensifies due to my sadness and sentimentality. I can’t see or believe I’d reach your state that “I want to be free more than I want anything to do with LO”. Maybe I’ll get there one day, regardless what I wish or not.
“I know now there is hope of freedom. Don’t give up hope. Remember every choice leads to either freedom or bondage. Time also heals.”
Hope is very important and I cannot live without any. However, I’m not sure bondage is opposite of freedom. In my case, LE brought a tremendous burst of energy for creativity, self discovery and growth… and its mild flame still alive after 7 years (by May 9th), I’m very afraid that such a flame of creativity — my phantom, would die out as time passes and LO is completely out of sight for good…😌
Hope you continue feeling better and better!
Just an offload: I sent a message to LO today which i guess wasn’t essential but it was playing on my mind until I did-nothing deep but just some information about someone. There were a few messages but in one of them i mentioned my SO just in passing and I am now just consumed with guilt about the fact that I entered in to a gossiping conversation and mentioned SO (nothing really bad just his views on the someone i was talking about but i shouldn’t have said it). It’s a weird feeling. The interaction itself wasn’t bad but I’m reflecting on what I have become in the name of having contact. I suppose I succumbed to temptation and I don’t like the colour on me. The only thing i can do is remember this feeling and move on not do it again.
‘Remember every choice leads to either freedom or bondage’ this is good advice. My choice earlier has left me feeling like a bit of a slave to this situation and compromising my integrity. But moving forward I hope to make better choices. No more contact.
Today I feel guilty, tomorrow and onwards I hope to be stronger and resist temptation.
Whoomp,
don’t beat yourself up, it’s all ok, and you seem to learn stuff about yourself from it, for example that you feel bad instead of good after giving in to temptation, and that’s all good for you, I guess! It doesn’t throw you back but pushes you forward, so to say.
Hi Whoomp,
Those temptations are lessons we learn not to fall into, once one recognizes how guilty we feel afterwards. The feeling is awful! Forgive yourself and try not to fall for it again.
But our poor limerent brain is of no help at all. So, we learn by trial and error . You’re doing great, by the way.
Have a good day.
Nisor
In Sunday’s sermon the closing of the pastor was that “your body is a temple of the holy spirit”. That we have to accept that to be able be Jesus’ disciple. The service ran longer than usual with the added celebration of Mother’s Day, so the second service was already approaching so I didn’t have time to talk to the pastor about it. It puzzles me as I don’t know what to do.
Well, in the church I grew up in, that would’ve meant no smoking/alcohol/drugs/illicit sex/etc.
I don’t understand that phrase at all. I think pastors should speak so that everyone in their church can understand them, shouldn’t they? So, Adam, I wouldn’t know what to do either.
When my friend is turning down a second slice of cake, she uses the phrase “No thanks, my body is a temple…..”
I think its up to each person to decide what the pastor means for themselves and in the way they find most helpful for their own situation.
Hi Adam,
Walking in the faith is a journey.
The Lord holds your hand in his as a Father with his child. He teaches you step by step, he doesn’t make you run a marathon when you’re not apt for it. Instead he teaches you slowly, until you grow , at a proper pace. He’s gentle and understanding, merciful, and is aware of our weaknesses and human condition and its fragility. Don’t obsess about everything too much. To make a vessel takes time and effort, you’re in that process now. Don’t climb the ladder in one shot, but step by step, lest you stumble.
That passage is found in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 (- main verse, #19)
The context was about brothers going against brothers and taking them to court and the church not being able to handle it. And a case of immorality, like fornication, then Paul extended to everything else. No one on this earth is perfect ; and the good news is that the Lord is full aware of that. He’s patient .
You’re the little boy the Lord is walking with and guiding you step by step. Do not be afraid. Remember there’s an enemy that wants to rob you of your peace of mind…don’t let him win. Stay firm in your purpose.
Have a great week , and peace to your mind. Hugs.
Hi Adam,
Can you please clarify your concern when you said, “I don’t know what to do?” If not, that’s OK too, just curious.
Why can’t I fix what he did to Momma? Why can’t I fix what he did to LO? Why can’t I fix what he did to my new friend? I feel so inadequate. Why do these women I care so much about have to endure the atrocities of my gender? I feel the guilt. And I hate myself that I can’t fix them.
Fix You —Fearless Soul
https://youtu.be/w3Q1j-Cj82I?si=VZU9B5fyfAUQnRHd
Adam, my SO is sleeping next to me and I don’t have earbuds in my ears so I didn’t listen to the song you posted. If my comment seems to be missing something, that is why.
You can’t fix the mistakes of others. Even if you were a professional fixer… maybe clergy… or a therapist… whoever qualifies as a professional fixer, you couldn’t fix the mistakes of others even if you were a professional fixer. Gosh, that doesn’t make sense. But you CAN be a kind, reliable friend/husband/coworker.
I want to share something with you.
My SO and I were talking about women who hate men while we did a trail run today. I brought it up because I don’t like man -haters. I don’t like to be around them and I really don’t want to be influenced by them. Our neighbor, who we love very much, recently married an ex-man-hater. Our neighbor told me about his new wife and he told me about the nightmare that her ex husband put her through. I can kind of see why she didn’t like men for so many years. She was determined to do everything herself and she felt like she didn’t need a man. Okay fine, but my neighbor is a wonderful man and I told my SO that I worry that his new wife might take some of her anger towards men out on my neighbor. He doesn’t deserve it, but he knew about that side of her before they got married so I guess he feels ready to walk that path with her. They both seem so happy. She has a beautiful glow. She is very kind and I never would have guessed that she used to hate men. Anyway, why am I telling you this? I think you and I have something in common. You don’t like to see men behave badly towards women and I don’t like to see women behave badly towards men. It just grates on me. Neither of us can fix it. I think we need to accept that it happens. I think it is enough if you just continue to be your kindhearted self. It’s all you can do.
Adam, you can’t fix them because you’re not God. That’s God’s job, yours is to pray for them, and for you to set an example of kindness for them.
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Holy Trinity. He resides in the believer, to guide us and make us discern between good and evil, according to the Scriptures. He’s very sensitive and can be shunned out by our behavior. We’re called to be sacred “clean”, holy as he is Holy. That’s why we’re the “temple “, the residence of the Holy Ghost.
What we do to our bodies is our responsibility. We need to take proper care of it , physically and mentally, spiritually.
Paul says : “All things are lawful for me, BUT all things are not helpful. ALL THINGS are lawful for me, BUT I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Corinthians 6:12
In other words , it’s your choice, your freedom to do as you please with your body, mind and soul. He’s giving you an alternative to be saved and well if you follow His guidance. He’s a gentleman, he doesn’t push anyone to do anything they don’t want to do.
To understand these teachings needs a lot of Biblical studies, as a person to become a Dr, a surgeon, needs years, and practice, sleepless nights and sacrifices ,effort and patience, to get to where they want to go. So is with a spiritual journey,
Any Spiritual journey. You’re in good hands.
Be patient and asks questions.
A big bear hug.
Wonderful devotional! Thank you, Nisor.
Miss Lovisa
“I think we need to accept that it happens.”
You know the surprising thing, I find in common with your story, is that all three of these women are so resilient in who they are now. They didn’t (at least not on the outside) let these terrible things that these men have done, dampen their will to live full lives. I married one, LO found the trust and care in another man, and my new friend is out there being a wonderfully successful independent woman. It doesn’t seem any of them lost trust in men all together. But I know all three did and/or do carry some trauma from those things done to them. But I can’t change the past. No matter how hard I try. Thanks for the story Miss Lovisa it helped put things in perspective.
Nisor
“That’s God’s job, yours is to pray for them, and for you to set an example of kindness for them.”
I try very hard to be that example with them all. I guess prayer I could be better with. Both for those I care and love and just in general. Trust that God can make it better for their trauma.
Last Sunday the pastor’s sermon was about what you said. That our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit. That we have to accept that and welcome it to be true followers of Jesus. I am still trying to figure out how to do that. I don’t know how to accept something that I cannot understand. But somehow I shall learn.
Hi, Adam!
I am happy to talk to you about my experience with the Holy Spirit and his place in our body, if you are interested?
Mine was a process of learning to trust Him, as He is an extension of the Father God and the Son Jesus. We believe they are the same God but manifested in three ways. This is what we call the “triune God” according to the New Testament.
The Bible says we are saved if we accept Jesus as the Messiah, and confess it with our mouths. That is literally all it takes to be saved. However, what happens is that once a person allows the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you — your mind, body and spirit — He should start ministering to you to sanctify things in your life.
For example, for me, I was showed very early in my conversion, through the Bible, prayer time, and church time, that for me to treat my “body as a temple” I had to stop having relations with men prior of marriage.
So, for every person, He is very specific to their own personal issues, and how He wants to help us overcome them. Your weaknesses are probably not my weaknesses. But if we let the Holy Spirit in, and truly give Him access to our body, there are bound to be some changes He wants. And it’s always for our benefit, and his.
I hope this helps in some way. 🌟
Limerent Nurse
Ironically tonights mens Bible study addressed just that. That God gives it to us as a gift whether we feel worthy or not. And I don’t feel worthy. I told the pastor tonight that when he mentioned all of us being a temple for the holy spirit that he was clearly not talking about me because of all my sins. Limerence. Not that I said that. And he said the Holy Spirit is a gift from God that he gives us. We don’t have to earn it. He gives it to us willingly. I spoke up twice in the Bible study and from what I said the pastor told me “you need to speak up more often Adam that’s a good point”. I tend to be quiet in Bible study.
Adam hi,
Wednesday’s Bible study will help you grow in the faith, and clarify some doubts you may have.
God is not interested in your past, but in saving your soul. His business is saving souls, not judging them. The Holy Ghost job is to comfort you and slowly guide you on your path towards a better life in Christ, if you allow Him.
Ask your pastor to help you understand whatever and whenever you have a question or doubts . He seems to be a kind and understanding person. Rare for these days we’re living in…
Have a great day. Hugs
And then I’m playing one of my favorite games and then there is this cutscene. Talk about irony.
https://youtu.be/YKF71MYAKQM?si=B8IyJUaXRE2MKBhw
@Adam,
The Holy Spirit would like to help you with your body/temple, as well as your heart and mind. He doesn’t expect us to clean it up for Him; He wants to have relationship with us, and He is the one who guides the “cleaning” of the temple, so to speak. Does that make sense?
The question is: are you ready for it? Are you open to it?
You said you are feeling unworthy. I would say you are feeling humbled, too. This is exactly what the Holy Spirit wants — a humble, repentant heart that will learn to trust Him to help you in your life.
There is a short book (analogy) called “My Heart – Christ’s Home”. It’s short and sweet, and talks about the things you are feeling in a quick, easy-to-read format. It might help you in your quest to figure out what this is all about 😊
But, most importantly, the New Testament will be your go-to in these things.
“The question is: are you ready for it? Are you open to it?”
I am not sure. I think I am open to it. I am seeing positive things from just going to church for the time that I have. I feel at home and not judged for what I have done. The pastor is always open and always has a listening ear. I just don’t know if I am ready for it.
I found a PDF of “My Heart – Christ’s Home” online and printed it out. I will read it tonight/this weekend and will report back to tell you what I thought.
At men’s Bible study Wednesday in a discussion about a scripture, I voiced some points about it and the pastor joked with me and the other brothers; “You need to speak up more often Adam. Those were really good points. It’s almost like you’ve been here before.” We all have a good laugh. After Bible study I told the pastor (one on one) that I knew the Bible from my childhood, I just don’t know how to worship and that was why I was there. And you are really helping me with that too. So thank you Limerent Nurse.
@Adam
That really warms my heart, thank you 😊
I am very happy you are benefiting, and I wish you and your family the best in all these positive ways.
Yes, learning how to worship and trust God can be such a process. But, if you remain open to it and keep seeking as you are, He will make His presence known.
I am also so glad that your other reports on the site expressed how you are feeling better about yourself and your limerence experiences, that the more time passes you are able to feel better about things. Being self-aware is so essential in preventing it from happening again. 🌟
Found an article of Dr L‘s that I may have read but not appreciated enough.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-indecision-worsens-limerence/
Mainly for me, but I wish a bit that my LO would read it too…
Hello bro John,
How are you doing? Last time you’re very busy, so I left you free…
I hope everything is fine with you.
Take good care of yourself.
L. sis Nisor
@Marcia.
Sammy says: “Now that’s a funny line.”
Marcia says: “I appreciate you finding it funny, but I was serious. 🙂 You go back to his place, he has hideous fluorescent lighting. It’s like being examined in a doctor’s office. No woman wants that! 🙂 At her place she’s already set up the dimmer switches, she gets some candles out … 🙂”
Marcia, I’d like to revisit your comment, but in the coffeehouse, because I think it highlights something very important about limerence…
I think maybe the thing non-limerents won’t get about limerents is the extreme earnestness that limerents seem to display in relation to their LO/limerence, and your above response is a good example of said earnestness.
A non-limerent just can’t understand how one human being could possibly be so into another human being.
A non-limerent would either assume that (a) limerents (during limerence) are simply people who lack morals or (b) my limerent friend (during limerence) is simply the funniest man/funniest woman I’ve ever met. I.e. they keep saying hilarious things.
The limerent, however, isn’t trying to be funny. The limerent is quite in earnest in terms of what they say. The limerent really is as “desperate” as they appear.
I bring the matter up because I’ve noticed even I, a fellow limerent, confuse your serious lines and your light-hearted lines. I can’t always tell when you’re being in earnest and when you’re having a little joke. Imagine how confused non-limerents must be!! I would interpret the majority of your comments as flippant. However, you may not have intended most of your comments to be flippant. 🙂
Sammy,
“I bring the matter up because I’ve noticed even I, a fellow limerent, confuse your serious lines and your light-hearted lines. I can’t always tell when you’re being in earnest and when you’re having a little joke. ”
In all seriousness, is it entirely possible the woman in LE’s story felt safer in her own home? Yes. For a variety of reasons.
But for me, personally, have I been known to … buy new curtains for a possible rendezvous so the lighting is to my advantage? Yes. So it was both serious and self-deprecating.
Sorry to be confusing.
And then there’s the other issue … and I’m being both serious and funny … if the guy goes to her place, what if she wants him to leave? 🙂 If she goes to his place, she can control the departure time.
@Marcia.
Ah, thank you for explaining in more detail. I think I understand both the serious meanings and the joke meanings you wished to convey. 🙂
Hi, Lwl mind,
Sorry, lengthy post on seemingly trifles, but I‘m pained.
I‘m not sure how to behave, because I‘m not sure if my issue has got something to do with limerence or not.
I met LO yesterday. Next week is the decision of his new company if they keep him or not (important to know that it’s almost 100% sure that they keep him- they love him).
He always said that he has to decide beforehand if he would stay there or at my workplace. And I told him several times that I support any decision of his, but that I’m having a hard time with the uncertainty and would he please tell me as soon as he‘s decided. It’s the only thing I made really, really clear, believe me.
Last week I met his SO and realized that they are looking at houses etc and that it’s basically almost clear that they will go away. Also, I heard in 15 min with his SO more about the situation than from him ever. Also, he told my SO about another decision (related) that he didn’t tell me about.
Yesterday I met him for an hour. He seemed relaxed and in a good mood, and we talked for one hour about stuff. I had to bring up the house they were looking at, we talked some about that. Then it was time to leave, and I asked him straight- has he decided to leave or not. He hem-hummed a tiny bit and then said, if it works out with the house and the decision of the company, yes, then they would leave. He said it in an almost casual manner.
Since they already said yes to the house owner and the company will surely keep him, this means, that’s it, this was the decision!
And I had to guess it from his SO and pull it finally out of his nose, although he knows exactly how the uncertainty is killing me.
Would he ever have told me?
I didn’t say anything, just stayed polite/nice and said goodbye. But I’m sad and furious.
He behaved as if this is a matter of no relevance for me and chatted away with a nonchalance, as if we are distant acquaintances who never talk about personal stuff. Although he knew 200%( because I told him several times very clearly) how I’m waiting for this decision because the uncertainty vexes me.
I feel a bit gaslighted. Or just plainly ignored.
The thing is, I‘m not sure how much is it my limerent side that is hurt, and how much would I be hurt anyway if a close friend behaved like that? I don’t want to be unfair or needy. He is basically an emotionally and socially restricted person, not just with me. I gathered from what he said that he didn’t even have a proper conversation with his SO about the decision, for god‘s sake. Don’t they talk? It’s very weird.
And should I tell him what’s going on with me? I don’t know how to behave now. I started making a voice message yesterday evening several times, but fortunately I didn’t send one because I didn’t get it right. He saw that I sent something and erased it, though, so I wrote that I didn’t get the message right and we talk maybe when he’s back. He sent a sad Emoji back. Which means he knows it’s about his decision, but he probably thinks it’s about the decision itself (his leaving), while it’s not.
He leaves for quite a while tomorrow on strip with his family.
The thing is, on one side I think- I cannot force someone to show me more affection or consideration than he wants to show. So I should just acknowledge that he is like that and keep on being friendly, but distance myself.
On the other side, I feel the need for myself to draw a clear line – either to be honest and tell him, or go NC for a while, or something, just not to go on with superficial texts like always. That feels unsatisfying and like betraying my pain.
But then, I don’t want him to feel punished without explanation. I also don’t want him to think that I’m angry about his decision to leave. I‘m sad, yes, but I understand his decision.
I‘m hurt by the way he didn’t tell me he’s decided and how he speaks about it- he never says one word to console me or tells me he‘ll miss me (ok, he doesn’t have to do that), or that he’s sorry we won’t work together anymore. Never a personal word. If I hadn’t some texts to show he cares, and the sheer amount of texts, I would doubt my mental sanity, and we were only casual acquaintances all the time.
I didn’t expect much-I would have been happy if he would have come yesterday and said „listen, I have to tell you something“ and told me. Nothing more. But he lets me run after him the whole time and ask. I mean I asked him from time to time and he said“I will tell you immediately, don’t worry.“ And then this, I have to wrangle it out of him. Really, he KNEW how important it was for me and still didn’t do it, and then behaved as if nothing happened and his decision would be of no interest to me anyway.
The thing is, I already told him two separate times how his behavior hurts me a bit. He acknowledged it and said it’s not the first time he hears that etc, and he tried his best for a while.
But it feels like nagging if I reproach him again for something like that, or anything.
I don’t want to feel like a nagging, needy woman.
Still, I‘m hurt and I don’t like the way he behaved. Tell him or not?
When he starts texting and sending pictures from his trip now, how should I respond?
I don’t want to go on like always but I don’t want to be cold without explaining, but then I don’t want to explain by nagging…
Any advice?
Is it only because of limerence I‘m hurt or do you think this is inconsiderate behavior even from a normal but close friend?
Hey Mila,
I could have written this. I have a flaky LO too.
OK I think the answer that will be best in the long run is the one you suggested yourself – this one:
“The thing is, on one side I think- I cannot force someone to show me more affection or consideration than he wants to show. So I should just acknowledge that he is like that and keep on being friendly, but distance myself.”
That’s the path of ‘no regret’ for you, I feel. I have gone down this path myself and have absolutely no regrets. The farther along I go with low or no interaction, the better I feel about it. I think the friendship that you have with your LO used to be a much different relationship than the place you are in now. It used to be a more shallow affair where these shallow interactions didn’t matter so much. If you weren’t as fixated on him, you wouldn’t worry too much, or, you would write it off faster. If another friend that you were not limerent for casually told you this, you would be annoyed with them too. BUT you would not be deep friends with them in the first place – just as you didn’t used to be so deeply involved with LO until limerence kicked the relationship into overdrive.
Keep calm , don’t make him a voice note, don’t react, that s my advice. You will calm down when he goes. In the meantime, be shallow back to him. When you gain more composure, you can make bigger calls on whether to speak “honestly” – although I have to say, honesty is over-rated in limerence. Its more about survival.
Hi Bewitched,
that’s exactly what I was thinking now. I‘m so glad something kept me from sending a final voice message yesterday. I always started reasonable and ended much too emotional.
I just keep forgetting that in his head is another reality than in mine, even if he‘s limerent too or if not limerent, I’m still very important for him. But very important to him isn’t the same as someone being important to me.
Anyway, „be shallow back to him“ is what I’ll do, but without much interaction from my side.
And maybe there will be no need for emotional talk once he’s back from his trip. I said let’s talk about it when you are back, but I guess now I’ll leave it to him if he takes me up on it or not.
I still think that the kind of strong feelings I had are not wholly bad. They are a part of me and my capacity to feel, and I feel that it’s not only limerence, there’s always a part of real love involved, and that’s something I hate to kill. But now I see that this is something belonging wholly to me and not to him, which helps. Sorry like I said to Snow, I cannot express this last sentiment well, as it just develops in my mind…
I‘m glad you keep going forward on your strong path to freedom, Bewitched!
Mila,
We are in exactly the same mindframe
“I still think that the kind of strong feelings I had are not wholly bad. They are a part of me and my capacity to feel, and I feel that it’s not only limerence, there’s always a part of real love involved, and that’s something I hate to kill. But now I see that this is something belonging wholly to me and not to him, which helps. ”
This is about YOU. Its beautiful (and painful).
I feel exactly the same. Even though I am in warrior mode (he has invited me to his house to meet his SO, ffs, what is he playing at, he leaks like a sieve? I don’t really want to talk about it too much).
But yes, each day I realise how mis-matched we are and that help me stay focused on maintaining my calm interior and exterior!
But also, I have been feeling depressed and angry at times. I almost lost the plot a few times at things which I normally consider quite innocuous. One thing is getting angry at work he and his team are causing me, ha ha.
Let’s stay focused, girl!
Bewitched,
Warrior mode, I like that!
Him inviting you to meet his SO can have several reasons. I remember LO1 who definitely was limerent for me or at least fell for me (no doubt because there was disclosure) asking me to include my SO in a work project in small group with him and me. Wtf? He couldn’t explain it himself to me afterwards.
But I wouldn’t dwell on reasons or meanings. Most probably he didn’t think anything much, or maybe it was something similar to putting his hands over eyes and trying to make everything seem normal.
But, as you say, it’s anyway about ourselves and only about ourselves! That’s what we should deal with and put them out of the equation.
Feeling angry is something I had to fight with in regards to LO even back in non-limerent times. He‘s lovely but some traits simply rile me. A sign that we are mismatched, as you and your LO.
I‘ll concentrate on an upcoming project I‘m invited to, at a very renowned company where he wasn’t re-invited, but me😎..
Warrior mode, Bewitched!💪🏻
Bewitched,
only quickly: if you weren’t in a good way already I might ask you if you have considered to accept the invitation. It might be a good way to kill limerence once and for all. You say you are mismatched and my guess is that would be even more obvious to you if you saw his home and life with SO. It would be a reality check for sure.
But then, it could also backfire! Him surprisingly attractive at home, cooking up a storm or whatever, and you getting suddenly immersed in his personal life, having to reinvite etc.
No, I think, your path of refusing to be pulled in from beginning is the best!
Oh I am going to go. I have little choice as there will be a few of us, all working together in a team for the week, at his city. This is the final dinner (traditional on the final night when we do these group weeks, but usually at a restaurant 😵😭). If I didnt go and stayed at hotel, they would all be co cerned and want to know if I was sick/okay etc. I freaked out completely when I heard. But that was ages ago and after a few shaky weeks, I have put it out of my mind. Also (and separately, somehow) I have gone into warrior mode to try and beat the limerence before all of this happens.
I am a bit worried that panic is going to kick in again though.
I see, it’s a work related thing. Since it’s at his city, it’s not that shocking that he suggested it. If his SO is like my LO‘s SO, she might have suggested it.
Thankfully there are other people there to talk to.
Take it as a good thing, you can sit back and observe. Is this the life you would have liked to have ?
Or: this is the reality you would destroy if you made a move on him or he made a move.
Or not even that dramatic- just take it in neutrally, his choice of SO, their interaction, his way of treating guests… going to be interesting for sure.
If you get nervous , stay close to your other colleagues.
It could even be that you go out of this evening cured!
Anyway, there’s no need to panic. Don’t give it more importance than it has. If he has the nerve to present you to his SO, you‘ll have the nerve to say hello and observe. Is there a chance to bring your SO? I know it sounds even more harrowing, but it could give you a sense of where you really belong.
Hey Mila & Snow,
After the initial shock of the invite, I didn’t dare think about how me, he or his SO might interact. But I am positive that he and his SO will be super-hospitable and nice. My SO will be back in my home country, holding the fort while I am away. No-one ever brings SOs to these affairs, its always just a work dinner, some food and wine. But always in a restaurant, so having this at his home will be a new departure for everyone. I did wonder why he did this but have stopped doing that now because I am sure to not guess correctly and it doesn’t matter anyway.
The main thing I hope is that he can keep his own head on straight. I am beginning to think that he is a serial limerent who is accustomed to this situation (wtf?!). And yeah, as a first time limerent, I am not exactly taking it in my stride. I am simply ignoring it until I need to tackle it head-on. My grand plan is to conquer the last remaining vestiges of my wayward addiction before I need to do this thing.
Hi Bewitched,
even if this invite will feel like a throw-back, it won’t be. All the work you put in now won’t be wasted because you‘ll have a sober state of mind to get back to after this evening.
It’s interesting that you think he‘s a serial limerent, how can someone tell?
Me, I‘m definitely a serial limerence, but not accustomed to any situations…it’s always painful and consuming.
I know from experience that meeting LO’s SO–even being at their house–doesn’t kill anything. It can, however, be a reality check. In this current LE, where the SO is rarely around and I don’t know her, when she does show up it sends me into waves of guilt for days or weeks. With past LO’s, I’d be acquainted with the SO but still limerent. It’s just that I would see them interact and feel like I was dying a little inside. One instance actually drove me to a crying fit. One factor is whether the LO reciprocates. Another factor is how they get along with each other. If they fight a lot, you start feeling like there’s “hope” for the LE. But if they get along, you can look into the eyes of the SO/children and imagine what they’d think if they only knew.
Oh my gosh, its definitely the latter (they definitely don’t fight is my guess). And I will feel guilty. Even though I am being as tough as possible around this LE. I never speak about anything other than work, just bare bones communication and no niceties with him. I have nothing to feel guilty for, really. And neither has he because we’ve been extremely careful, or I have and I am guessing he’s also controlling it as well as he can (who knows what he really thinks though). But that’s all blown to bits when we are f2f (not necessary for work most of the time), so yes, I am worried and I am working on it, big time, before then.
@Biwitched,
Human brain is vastly complex, we can never know in advance how We’d feel in a situation we have never been. Please be prepared for all possible “worst”….
Sorry to pour a bucket of icy water ove your head…. I pray it will not stir up your peace too much…. 🫂
Hi Bewitched,
I have similar experiences to Serial Limerent (bring one too;)), it depends.
It can still be healthy because it bursts the bubble of „LO and me“.
While I agree with Snow that one cannot wholly prepare for such an event, I still think that one can prepare to a certain extent by staying with oneself and one’s intrinsic selfworth and take on the role of observer (observing them and yourself).
This event won’t crush you and even if it pulls you down or lifts you up, whatever, you still will have gained insights and can move on, I‘m sure.
@Mila,
I second Bewitched: don’t call LO or leave message. It will not survive construction function particular when you are “agitated” now. I thought of writing a farewell note to LO, but ultimately decide not to, what for?
IMO, Honesty is over rated in the culture. Please check this 3.5 minute video, with which I highly agree. If dealing with partner, we need to be lovingly tactful and psychologically considerate (even just for oneself), then with LO or a close friend who are not our intimate partner, we need more discerning about our “honesty”.
https://youtu.be/iQ4K9jkYPNk?si=Ya1EVEYRaW85C7cx — Is It Okay to Keep Secrets from Your Partner?
My concrete suggestion: Take a long, hot, Epsom Salt Bath, your body and nerves would relax without choice. It really worked — put me to a deeper sleep immediately, which in return rested my flared neural system.
Thanks Snow,
will watch it later as have to stop writing now!
Thankfully I‘m not agitated anymore and the need to express or explain myself calmed down.
No notes and messages, promise.
Thank you both for helping me🙏🏻🙏🏻!
Hi Snow,
Thanks for the video, that’s something I agree in anyway.
Still, sometimes it’s good to be honest about what hurts and what not, at least in a relationship with some kind of future, otherwise the other person will keep behaving hurtfully without realizing.
But in my case I‘ll just keep quiet and cut my own friendship back, that’s it.
In a few months this will be over and a memory for both of us, Snow, which might be sad but still good for us for moving on.
Mila,
With my experiences. Even if LO were still around, even if we complained to them about their “hurtful” behaviors, they would not change. They would not “reciprocate” us In ways we wish or desire, either as LO or a close friend. Now two people are alike. Simply we can’t change another person, not even ourselves easily, especially when we are in LE.
Also our complaints are derived from our LE mind, quite different from our normal logical mind while. It in LE.
Also I could stoically observe my own LE pains, LO’s nature and behaviors, it does not mean I am NOT a doer — suffering LE in its varied colors and intensity. It’s a battle against our mental stages, complaining to LO will not help, unless they are truly in limerence with us and dying to know.
I just visited my cardiologist today. Luckily my recent escalated anxiety has not affect my heart yet.
Hope you’re having a restful sleep!
Typo:
no two people are alike.
Although I could stoically observe…
@Mila.
I don’t want to say anything that will hurt your feelings. Also, I don’t know the cultural norms around friendship where you are. However, if you want some random input from a “logical boy brain”, these are my immediate impressions:
(1) If you’re feeling very upset and distressed because your LO doesn’t seem to recognise the strength of your feelings for him, that does sound like limerence and not just friendship to me (limerence on your part).
(2) If your brain is limerent for this man, your brain will start treating him as if he is already your boyfriend e.g. you want him to consult you on all major life plans/big changes.
(3) You report your LO “behaved as if this is a matter of no relevance for me and chatted away with a nonchalance, as if we are distant acquaintances who never talk about personal stuff.”
This, to me, sounds like your LO isn’t in limerence with you, and only views you as a friend. In my country, friends don’t necessarily discuss all big life decisions with each other. If they do have these discussions, said discussions wouldn’t be emotionally-charged but rather nonchalant. E.g. “Oh, and I’m doing this and this.”
(4) It’s understandable you feel gaslit if you and your LO have been very close in the past and discussed important life stuff with one another. I.e. why is he backtracking on the emotional intimacy we shared all of a sudden?
(5) If you and your LO were in mutual limerence and having an emotional affair, it is very likely you would be talking about everything with a great deal of emotion attached, and trying to hide these emotionally-charged conversations from spouses. This doesn’t sound like what happening between you and your LO.
(6) I would say, without knowing your whole story, that your limerence is one-sided. Or, at least, your feelings for your LO are much stronger than your LO’s feelings for you.
However, you seem to recognise this fact already when you say: “I still think that the kind of strong feelings I had are not wholly bad. They are a part of me and my capacity to feel, and I feel that it’s not only limerence, there’s always a part of real love involved, and that’s something I hate to kill. But now I see that this is something belonging wholly to me and not to him, which helps.”
I think you express the above sentiment just fine, btw. You’re basically saying that your limerence is about you, which is true. And you’re also saying that your capacity for deep feeling is part of your temperament in general, which it is.
@Mila,
I’m so sorry to hear about your pain, I can feel it clearly and accurately. Now, I know we are on the exact same boat, but your limerence pain is worse, since you two were friends and your LO does not behave like a friend in the crucial time like this. My cold/“cruel” LO’s behavior was expected after he had manifested repeatedly over years under the mask of friendliness or cordiality.
“Is it only because of limerence I‘m hurt or do you think this is inconsiderate behavior even from a normal but close friend?”
Your pain (mine, too) is due to our limerence. LO’s “inconsiderate” behavior is perceived through our limerence’s eyes. From a bystander’s or their perspective, they have acted/behaved properly and friendly; they knew our limerence feelings w/o the terminology, they neither want(ed) to hurt us, nor involve us in their decision making regarding their career and finally life, so their (in)actions appear as evasive or simply cold-hearted. They did not or could not reciprocate our LE feelings for whatever reasons, so they played “mouse-cat” chasing game with us, especially if LO is a Sensor, who thrive on our affections and would never set us free, while we still work in the same vicinity.
“But it feels like nagging if I reproach him again for something like that, or anything. I don’t want to feel like a nagging, needy woman.
Still, I‘m hurt and I don’t like the way he behaved. Tell him or not?”
I do NOT think you should “reproach him”, what would it serve in a short or long run? What goal you think you could achieve by doing so now that he’s decided to move away for good? Remember, having LE affection for LO does not make us special or important in their personal and family life. We feel our intense, genuine LE affections is as big/important as the sun/moon shine (how could LO not appreciate it or accept it?), but to LO or other speculating eyes, limerents are somewhat “lunatic”, due to our altered mind…
My instinct on why your LO behaved this way is that he did not want to hurt your feelings. For us, a frank, straightforward talk would be so easy to set record straight, I reproached this my LO 5 years ago for not talking with me straightforward (I could only do it in writing, not in person in public), but he just kept silent, continued “befriending” me, and a year later even made a reciprocation-like move for 8 months. Some LOs just would NOT“confront” their limerets because they either do not comprehend our LE behaviors or complicated emotions or just do NOT want to hurt us. They do not understand that Uncertainties hurt us much more…
That’s why a definitive closure, no matter how dark or sad, is important, but I agree with DrL that it’s impossible to close with LOs. Even after they physically leave, our LE for them can still last long. So it is MORE important to close our LE inside the head through some effective ways (differ in each limerent). In our cases, LO is neither interested in hearing about it nor giving us a chance to do it, in my case not even a superficial farewell as colleagues.
“The thing is, on one side I think- I cannot force someone to show me more affection or consideration than he wants to show. So I should just acknowledge that he is like that and keep on being friendly, but distance myself.”
It’s a reality that we have to face. We have no other choices. we can’t make someone to have affection for us, just because we have had for them, that including friends.
“On the other side, I feel the need for myself to draw a clear line – either to be honest and tell him, or go NC for a while, or something, just not to go on with superficial texts like always. That feels unsatisfying and like betraying my pain.”
Texting is somewhat tricky or “toxic”, it keeps our LE mind fed no matter how superficial LO’s messages could be, our LE imagination could not help give LO’s texts more “special” meanings than they ever meant to be. If the reality contradict our beliefs/imagination, we then felt betrayed or even think no text would be better. On other side, LO probably just want keep minimum cordial, friendly communication, so not to “ghost” and thus hurt us.
I’m not talking about all these in theory since I’m in “LE Limbo” at an “death-arrived” end. Although LO said we would find time for lunch, I just take ths answer as a “NO”. He never gave me a straight NO but all sorts of excuses or silence shirking off his Yes or Maybe. Keeping in my small Stoic mind that I can’t “make a horse to drink water at river”, I stopped pushing for anything a long while ago. Now, all I need to do is move on, which is very hard at moment….
So what are we going to do? I am thinking, hypothetically, If we are left for 24 hours to breathe on earth, what would we do with LO and ourselves —our mind and heart? In both cases, LO is leaving definitely, do we want to keep some resentment or loving thoughts within our limited time at last?
I’m just rushing out my thoughts once waking up, so forgive me if my thoughts are disorganized.
My mind and heart are with you, Mila! 🫂
Corrections:
“but to LO or other speculating eyes, IF they know what’s going on in our mind, limerents are “lunatic”, due to our altered mind…
In my case, LO is neither interested in hearing about my LE (hinted it before as an addiction), nor giving me a chance to say a superficial goodbye as colleagues.
Hi Snow,
Thank you very much for your heartfelt message, although you say it was rushed it was straight to the point and mirrored on the whole the state of mind I arrived at in the meantime!
I don’t agree wholly on the reasons for my LOs behavior since one has to know him to understand, I don’t think he wanted to spare my feelings and not hurt me, that would have been actually nice, I think it more likely that he was scared of telling me the truth because he‘s not used to emotional conversations, meaning he just didn’t want to feel uncomfortable himself, plus he‘s just not able to initiate personal conversation. I had to initiate all the time in the past, and I see that he cannot do it with his SO either, I guess, if there’s something to talk, she‘ll initiate too.
Also I do think he had limerent feelings for me. He‘s just not able to be limerent to the extent that I am.
I think now that it’s basically my fault to expect something from someone who isn’t able to give it. If I would accept what kind of person he is (base of a friendship, no?), I wouldn’t be disappointed. He‘s just not able to be the kind of friend I thought he is (not counting the limerence), and that’s it, it should be ok for me.
No, I also came to the conclusion that reproaches and emotional talk are uncalled for.
The unusual frequency of texting (mostly initiated by him in the past) is something that should be toned down until it matches the real intensity of the relationship.
I guess the best would be to respond friendly when he texts but let it peter out quickly, and not initiate texts, like I did anyway in the last weeks.
But do you understand the need to acknowledge my own bigger feelings and hurt? It feels wrong to always tone down and belittle my emotions because there is also something beautiful and alive about them, and I need to acknowledge my pain and also grief. I just see now that I shouldn’t involve him in this.
But on the other hand I kind of think that I do need to belittle him/my emotions to get over them.
Sorry, I don’t make sense, work is in progress here;) but I think I‘m on a good way now.
Thank you again for responding, Snow!
We‘ll get through this goodbye- phase alright and head high.
Mila,
Finally I got a moment to sit down after running around seeing my cardiologist and tutoring Romeo, who is still upbeat in his body, mind and spirit, but not glimmery in my aware eyes…
“But do you understand the need to acknowledge my own bigger feelings and hurt? It feels wrong to always tone down and belittle my emotions because there is also something beautiful and alive about them, and I need to acknowledge my pain and also grief. I just see now that I shouldn’t involve him in this. But on the other hand I kind of think that I do need to belittle him/my emotions to get over them.”
I think right now I could most relate to your hurt, grief, other indescribable emotions or anxiety; our situations are just about identical. As you know of(read), I have been a ghost/person, if not the only one, in LwL who has almost “glorified” my LE and do not feel regretful about it, despite my concrete sufferings in the past 6 year (was not in limerence for the first 9 months after Glimmer). Just like you said, there was something so beautiful and powerful that it awoken me from the years of “sleeping” on the bed of ignorance of my cptsd, my robot-like upbringing, my repressed dreams/desires, my creative streak, etc.
I did not and will never “tone down or belittle” my emotions (both joys and pains); they were a vital part of my life, of my history, and of my personal myth. I have tried to transform it to an unrequited love, which is proven almost impossible while the realistic LO is still a kind of “hurting” me. Therefore, to whom I should express the “beautiful and alive” emotions, as well as the pain and grief, is a big question⁉️
A truly empathetic and appreciative ear/soul may help us, but could an evasive, Sensor LO (in my case) or a “weak, coward” LO (in your case) really comprehend and appreciate (none-judging) our LE? I question: if LE is “normally” beautiful, enliven, and inspiring, why couldn’t we tell our other colleagues or friends? Why do we feel so embarrassed and hide our LE at all costs?
Without any first-hand knowledge, I do not know who your LO is and certainly can’t tell or even guess what has been going on in his mind during your friendship and limerence with him in those years (how long again?) But intuitively, with little factual proofs, I could not help agree with Sammy’s analysis on your LO/LE… I did not want to say anything contradicting your judgment and feelings… My intuition erred before, thus cannot be entirely trusted.
I think that video clip about Ron (“Harry Potty”) has so vivid captured his LE, so hilarious!🤣 Who wants to appear like that much lost in anyone’s eyes (except in LwL)? Still I do not want to belittle LO or my emotions to get over my LE (with the awaken Phantom of my own). I’m fearful of the Phantom’s possible “starvation”; when that happens, what would be left in my mind and spirit…. ⁉️
Both our LOs are going away, a physical NC, even with holiday greeting exchanges or superficial catching up, will do its psychological wonder — smothering LE to death soon or later, at least for me.
My biggest challenge lies on tomorrow morning (the honorary convocation) — my last chance to possibly bump into LO and say a superficial goodbye in front of others’ eyes. If going in, how would I feel knowing it’d be the last time to see LO in the familiar, nostalgic setting? Another panic attack might wait for me?… If staying away to give up the last chance, I might regret for life later … Going in or staying away seems to have become a “life-or-death”❓
To go or not to go, that is a question….⁉️
Wow, Snow and Mila,
so much pain involved in these situations, it’s heartbreaking! Im crying for you both because I know how it feels in the core of your hearts. I have been there, very deep indeed. The emotions are so raw and definitely it will hurt, confuse you, anger you, depress you; the uncertainty is unbelievable! Not having a definite closure is brutal, simply brutal!!! I’m at unison with your feelings! Your last posts has triggered my limerence badly today, I feel very emotional just thinking about your goodbyes, reminded “that day” of mine when I had to take a decision. I stood tall and faced reality of things and was looking forward for better days and was full of hope . Better days came along shortly after. You have to grieve and wallow in pain now, don’t hold your sentiments, lest they show up later on, as it happened to me. I didn’t go through a grieving process, I’m paying for it now with limerence after 49 years later. Unbelievable how the mind works!!!
I’m with you both on this ordeal, and hope it goes easy on you both. Hugs.
Snow, yes, go to the last meeting. Just be valiant and bold and ready to confront any emotional situation. Get it off the horses mouth. It will probably be your last memory of LO if he’s there.
Let it be a pleasant experience, memory. When one gets old that’s all you have left, memories… and say: I did it my way!
“ Regrets I had a few, but yet again too few to mention. I did what I had to do, without exceptions…”
Song : I did it my way, Frank Sinatra sings.
Thinking of you both.
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for your compassion! I‘m sorry we triggered your limerence by our stories!
I also think that I should acknowledge my grief at some point. Just maybe not in front of LO. It would do nobody any good, probably.
I feel I need outlet and closure, but maybe that need will subside while the LE finally dies and LO gets less important in my mind.
Snow, sorry the day has come for you. Just imagine yourself this time next week or next month and you had not gone. How would you be feeling ? Would you have regrets Or would you be at peace? Based on this make your decision. Deep down you probably already know.
I wish you well, whatever you decide.
Thank you, Ladies, for your kind I’m thoughts, care, and inputs.
As you e seen that I’m a kind of “girl” who is curious and daring enough to attempt to open every closed (unlocked) box, be it Pandora or treasure. And among all negative emotions, I hate Regret most.
All other emotions have passed in my life, but regrets for for many errors I knowingly or ignorantly made, including ones made in my LEs, are still gnawing me inside out….
So I’m On the way, in the train, to the school (the day of honor convocation for graduating students). If I can find LO in his office, I’d say a nice goodbye. There is a big chance that he’d be talking with others who congratulates his new job.
I am nervous, but I have to give it a try, or I will regret for the rest of my life.
Here is my stop 🛑
Go, phoenix 💪🏻good luck and let us know how it went.
I missed LO literally by 10 seconds!
As I was walking around the turning corner in the hallway, I heard his office door clicking to lock. I hurriedly turned and saw him in his doctoral gown walking with another good colleague of us, whom I just chatted briefly earlier, who definitely suspects that something might be going on between LO and me, because my terrible poky face couldn’t hide my LE when chatting up with LO in the hallway. Other people could spot it easily, I’m sure of it.
Seeing his taller figure, with a new haircut, (he appeared very strange after having not seen him in exactly 2 weeks), I wondered if I should call him to say a goodbye, I had only 5 seconds to decide.
I could not and did not utter a sound! I did not know what I could and would say in front of her (from his department).
When they opened the stairway door ahead of me down the hallway, LO did not turn back to scan the empty hallway, as he often did and as I was hoping. If I wanted, I could hurry to catch them up in the stairway, but what for? I am not desperate for anything!
Afterwards I felt slight panic (with a sense of being abandoned) … I rushed out my smothering office. Now, I’m sitting in a courtyard where the reception under tents would take place… I’m collecting myself before heading home. I will not wait around for his return to his office after the convocation ceremony. I don’t even want him to know that I was there seeing him strolling down the nostalgic hallway leading to our shared, more memorable lounge….
So I did spot LO in his best form — His tal, slim figure in the majestic peacock- blue velvet gown! I shall remember the image.
No regret now. 😌
Remembered how I was triggered with my biggest panic attack on the commencement day in 2019,., when LO ignored me in public and left for home much earlier than I did, I have to wisely leave the triggering site first now.
Leaving something behind is, to me personally, psychological “healthier” then being left behind “realistically” or metaphorically…
In two hours, I will host a lunch/dinner party for a reunion with my previously graduated students. ☺️
Just checked the calendar, Commencement Day of 2019 was exactly the same— May 17th on Friday! So exactly five year “anniversary” of the life altering panic attack!
Life goes in circles indeed, but I still could avoid its possibly same “dire” consequence/impact by pulling myself out of the triggering situation in time. Therefore, in a tiny way, I did defy the Fate lady’s hand… I feel strengthened at least now, after coming to the site and going through a thousand mental and emotional shades… again, no regret should be left…. But I need to go through a grieving process soon with my internal closure to the LE.
On the train back to home for my own party 🎊
Lots of courage Snow! Gather all your strength now, do the worrying later. We’ll accompany you , ok? Promise ? You’ll be alright!
Hi Snow!
Sounds like a fitting goodbye! Better than calling him back in the hallway and stumbling over a few stilted sentences while this colleague watches like a hawk.
I wish you a brilliant party! Enjoy your guests and yourself! Your life is very rich even after this goodbye.
Hugs to both Snow and Mila! Both of you going through goodbyes at the same time! I had a very emotional goodbye to a previous LO when he quit his job in a dramatic fashion. I was his “work wife.” I know what it’s like!
Hi Serial Limerent,
„Work wife“comes very close here too!
No final goodbye here yet since they‘ll stay in town until summer, but in my heart I try to say goodbye now.
Snowphoenix and Mila,
One ending completed, and one written in the the cards…
Snowphoenix – “So I did spot LO in his best form — His tall, slim figure in the majestic peacock- blue velvet gown! I shall remember the image… No regret now”
You seriously made me tear up a little with this phrase. This is beautiful. This is a last memory to savor forever and it’s perfect.
I have similar last memories of both LO2 and LO3 that I also still treasure when I think about them – both bittersweet and beautiful. I hugged LO2 goodbye at a backyard barbeque on a cool grey evening while Wilco’s “Jesus etc” played on the stereo, and watched her climb into her car to drive to her new home 3000 miles away. I hugged LO3 goodbye outside my home as the sun was setting; we told each other how much we liked and respected each other and how glad we were that we’d gotten to know each other for a little while, we hugged one more time and then she drove off to have dinner with her boyfriend and I went back inside to my wife. Both moments were understated and perfect – much better than if I’d made some emotional scene or opened the door to some sort of awkwardness that could have spoiled everything.
Mila – I feel for you very much. I feel like you’re dealing with 2 losses here at the same time. There’s the impending loss of your LO as a real presence in your life – he’s set on leaving, and you know him well enough not to harbor any illusions about maintaining a close and meaningful relationship once he’s moved on. At the same time, you’re also dealing with the loss of the fantasy person, the person you’ve always wanted him to be but he never actually could be, the person who communicates openly with you about important things, who goes for real talk instead of frequent but superficial texts. It sounds like that person never really existed – that the real life version your LO is a somewhat emotionally stunted avoidant type who simply could never provide you with the emotional depth and realness that you’ve always wanted from him. But until now, you’ve always held out hope that he could still miraculously become that person… but his inability and/or unwillingness to even let you know about this life-changing decision of his without making you pry it out of his SO has finally put the nail in the coffin of that dream. That’s a painful loss too.
I guess my advice to you (and keep in mind that I’m really in no position to give advice to anyone) would be to do your best to just keep being nice and being cordial to him and enjoy any time together you get with him before he leaves – because one way or another, a year from now he’s going to be gone and all you’re going to be left with are the memories. Right now you get to help craft the last memories you want to have. Do you want some bittersweet but beautiful memories of some nice interactions where perhaps the important things are left unsaid but that’s ok because deep down you both really know them anyway? Or do you want some sour memories of harsh words and painful exchanges as the last memories? My sense is that you were going to ultimately go the kind and cordial route anyway (regardless of how much inner angst you might be feeling and might express here), but I just wanted to add my own voice saying that I’ve pretty much never regretted being gracious and letting things end nicely, but I’ve certainly regretted the couple of times in my life where I acted badly at the end of a relationship and was left with poisoned memories that could never be undone.
Lost in Space,
Thank you for that. It seems you looked into my heart. I feel completely understood by you and have such a rush of gratitude!
I just got up and have no time to reply, but just wanted to thank you quickly.
Mila, I feel like you and me are kindred spirits – I understand you and you understand me because we’re really quite a bit alike (except that you’re just getting up and I’m just going to bed 🙂
It’s nice to know you.
Hi LiS,
Again, exactly what I was thinking about us.
I wish you a good night!
It’s very good to know you!
My way, Frank Sinatra
“And now, the end is near/ and so I face the final curtain/
My friend, I’ll say it clear/ I’ll state my case/ of which I’m certain.
I lived a life that’s full/ I traveled each and every highway/ and more, much more than this/
I did it my way.
Regrets, I’ve had a few/ but then again, too few to mention/ I did what I had to do/
And saw it through without exceptions/
I planned each charted course/each careful step along the byway/and more, much more than this/
I did it my way.
Yes, there were times, I’m sure you know/ when I bit off more that I could chew/
But through it all, when there was doubt/ I ate it up and spit it out/
I faced it all, and I stood tall/
And did it my way.
I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried/ I’ve had my fill, my share of losing/ And now, as tears subside/ I find it all so amusing/ To think I did all that/ and may I say, not in a shy way/ oh, no, oh, no, not me/
I did it my way.
For what is a man, what has he got? If not himself, than he has naught/ to say the things he truly feels/ and not the words of one who kneels/ the record shows I took the blow and did it my way.
Yes, it was my way.
I thought more about why Lost in Space‘s reply hit me in such a helpful way.
One thing is of course generally his way with words, they are always carefully placed in just the right way, and you feel empathy and care.
But what hit home in this special case was that he told me that this person I was angry at, this person who acted inconsiderately etc, doesn’t really exist.
This person I rage at is imaginary. I would have loved such a person in my life, but he‘s not there.
Somehow this immediately calmed me down and took away my anxiety. There’s no one to be vexed by, no one who could have acted more empathetic or said this and that.
There’s only this guy who is nice enough but simply doesn’t have the range to behave as I‘d like him to.
It is a bit similar to Snow‘s phantom, but not the same.
The difference between telling myself that my LO is not able to show emotions and so forth, and understand that there is not such an LO, but a different person, who was there all along but got overshadowed by my illusion of someone else- this difference might be slight and the outcome the same, but somehow it changed the view significantly for me.
At least for today. I will ruminate some more about it. Bear with me when I ramble along.
In the meantime, LO sent pictures from his trip, as expected. I haven’t looked at them yet because I‘m still not sure how to react.
I mean, now I’m not angry any more, but I really don’t feel like looking at them, and I don’t want to pretend anything or force myself to anything. I‘m going to sleep now and see how I feel tomorrow about it.
Mila
Gut reaction. I’m a bit shocked that he would still send photos. I had thought that maybe he had been trying to be considerate towards your feelings.
Sometimes I have to scan through the details of your posts but maybe he just doesn’t really understand how you feel about everything – the depth of your feelings and the recent distress it has caused you.
I know he was a friend, a good friend, but I don’t think this is worth it for either of you, or anyone else involved.
Like you, I did wonder whether or not your situation was limerence a couple of days ago. It is, I feel sure.
I only accepted this tenet recently but you can’t be friends with a LO. There’s a blog somewhere but you have probably read it already.
f x
Hi Frederico,
Yes, of course it’s limerence, but limerence came after 10 years of solid limerence-free friendship from my side, triggered by his getting another job and being uncertain for a whole year if he would take it for good or not.
That’s why I always felt I could get back to mere friendship, but couldn’t really, until the uncertainty was removed. And yes, it’s the limerent me who reacted so strongly on his inconsiderate behavior,although a mere friend would be a bit annoyed by it, too.
I reacted like you, being shocked and expecting him to be more considerate etc, but after LiS’ post I can see him neutrally like I could before limerence.
The thing with my LO is, he is very- not autistic, but going in that direction, needing his routines, not noticing social signs of distress, never being polite or a bit dishonest to save a situation etc. He really is very bad at expressing emotions, at giving compliments. I already spoke to him about that and he said that many people told him that and he tried for a sweet while to be better. (The thing is, when he does say something nice or warm, it feels much more precious than from others.)
So he wouldn’t behave like anyone else anyway.
This picture sending is his way of making contact. He thinks it’s something considerate. „Look, you are part of my life“.
I didn’t make a show or say anything after I heard from him that he‘ll leave for good, it was anyway soon time to go, so we talked about it a bit and I said goodbye nicely. Of course a normal person would know that I was distressed anyway. But he just takes it at face value- she didn’t cry or say something, so she’s ok.
And I behaved that way because I was in a kind of shock about the way I had to ask and get a casual answer, nothing I would have expected after telling him so often how important this information is for me. I just wasn’t prepared and ended the meeting kind of frozen.
He doesn’t know about the depths of my feelings , although I told him several times (not that I’m limerent but how this uncertainty and fear of loss distresses me) because he‘s not capable of this depth himself, I think.
He is a very loyal person and will keep up contact and seeing me as his best friend for years to come, I’m very sure of that, but he will never be what I thought he was for me.
I guess I’ll look at the darn pictures at some time during the day and send some darn Emojis.
He won’t anyway be in town much the next time, and then it’s soon summer and time for him to move away, and this will be the end of limerence.
I‘m on a good way, Frederico, thank you so much for your concern, I’m so glad you wrote!
I hope you are doing better.
Mila
Ah, yes, I see. Your description emphasises what an unsettling time you have had.
Reading your response, and looking at some other posts, brings it home to me how difficult it must be to handle limerence towards a colleague where no contact is indeed impossible.
I had work crushes but fortunately that’s all they were.
Yes, I’m doing ok, thank you. My situation is so different. My ex-LO has moved on and is ghosting so I don’t have the same sort of issues as, say, you and LiS. Not giving in, after NC since the beginning of the year, is not so difficult in theory. It just takes resolve.
I also have to overcome a lack of stamina to keep getting out for a walk etc. I didn’t send cards to friends in the end but last night I did send some cheery WhatsApp messages. Sending messages to keep in touch with friends is so different to sending messages to LOs.
Frederico,
In my case, co-working is at an end now, so that’s out of the way to a limerence-free life.
Funny that you say that about not getting up the energy for a walk, because I also struggle with getting myself to move my body. Every day I resolve to exercise but don’t.
But today I swore to myself to at least take a brisk walk.
Frederico, let’s go for a walk today please!
I don’t know which time zone you are in, but I’ll go later in the afternoon (now it’s noon) or early evening.
Please go with me!
@Mila, Nisor, Serial Limerent, imho, LiS…
Thank you for your support and 🫂 on Friday, which was just over charging on my neural system. Still, my worst feared panic attack did not occur, but my mind was shattering for hours, even to yesterday….
Mila, the party was fine and my students had a good time catching up with each other and eat my home-cooked fresh meal (no one drank a sip of alcohol). A couple of them sensed my stress and stayed up to midnight to play poker with me, while I actually wished they could leave sooner so I could be alone with my grief-striking mind and heart… I did not want to two events to be on the same day, but it had to be, due to everyone’s availability…
Yesterday, besides teaching with a scattered mind, I continued to stay alone with my painful meditations on this LE, which weakened my physical system.
LiS, “You seriously made me tear up a little with this phrase. This is beautiful. This is a last memory to savor forever and it’s perfect.”
Thank you for the rare understanding of what I was seeing and feeling… it was the moment of “life-n-death” goodbye… my chest still tightens when I recall it, though it hurts less now as some time has passed…
LiS, we did not really communicate since I came on LwL last July (could not always keep up with the detailed weekly reports on your complicated LE), and I did not think we are kindred spirit, despite you claim to be a INFP. I don’t really believe MBTI thingy.
A few weeks ago I knew by instinct that your situation would continue, despite all “declarations to distance” of both sides. I knew it could/ would not stop, for whatever intricate reasons.… Now, you’ve explained your thinking on your decision, then I have to honestly say this: If in your shoes, I’d choose your decision (in theory of course). I understand your mentality on this matter, and would not abandon LO (only some harmless LOs) who should need my presence or help , even if it means emotional/mental pains are waiting ahead of me…. It’s neither “heroic” nor masochistic.
And as you states and I agree that it’s not just for her, it would be for you as well. To be truly wanted/needed and to be able to beneficially provide the said needs (for the time being) bring a strong SENSE of meanings to one’s life, however small or trivial it is. The opposing point would argue it’s out of selfish motivation, but to do things beneficial even just to one’s own mental health (who here in LwL is not doing it?), that would be a good, needed “selfness”!
My only consideration would be whether my emotional/mental assistance to LO truly benefits both of you, and I would have to constantly check evolving natures of such interactions with LO, two SOs, kids, and the boundaries… .
All I am saying here is that I really understand your mindset and decision, I would do the same if in your shoes.
Imaginary Conversation
Linda Pastan
1932 –2023
You tell me to live each day
as if it were my last. This is in the kitchen
where before coffee I complain
of the day ahead—that obstacle race
of minutes and hours,
grocery stores and doctors.
But why the last? I ask. Why not
live each day as if it were the first—
all raw astonishment, Eve rubbing
her eyes awake that first morning,
the sun coming up
like an ingénue in the east?
You grind the coffee
with the small roar of a mind
trying to clear itself. I set
the table, glance out the window
where dew has baptized every
living surface.
Beautiful!
Perceiving the day as your first or last might sound and be very different, but maybe there‘s something similar about the sheer appreciation of life and beauty , too.
Hi Snow and Sammy!
Thanks for your thoughtful input!
I love it that you reinforce my sceptical side here, it prevents me from telling LO honest stuff (had a bout of temptation, but calmed down again).
Although I have to beg to differ a bit from you, (although not much)since I know my LO for 12 years in a more or less close friendship without limerence on my side, which is a bit unusual. I know him quite well and I trust my own judgement here;)
I don’t know if what he had can be called limerence since it doesn’t seem to be the intense painful stuff I‘m going through when I’m limerence. But I’m quite sure he was limerent (or very attracted/bit obsessed) for me for a while in the beginning. I was head on in my first limerence for someone else, so I didn’t reciprocate and we just went on with our friendship. I saw him being limerent for another colleague, I know the signs. This passed too, and I’m sure we were mutually limerent (or obsessed, attracted on his side) last year going into this year.
But it’s very possible that he stopped being limerent a while ago, while I was on my business trip, or around that time.
Which leaves in fact a one-sided limerence on my side.
But fact is also, limerence here or there, that indeed I‘m the closest friend he has (him not being the closest I have, though) and that after his SO I‘m the most important person he‘s got (his words, not mine).
Now there seems to be a difference in our view on how a close friend behaves.
For me, it’s listening to them and when they say please tell me when you‘ve decided otherwise I’m in pain, I do just that. For him, it’s writing dozens of texts each day (and again, fact is, this was mostly initiated by him in the last weeks, not me), but not telling me the important stuff🤷🏻♀️
You see, I still hurt, and yes, limerence aggravates this, but there’s a part to it that is also disappointed by a friend.
But as Bewitched said, if it would just be a normal friend, I would still be annoyed, but I wouldn’t care that much and want to talk about it etc. would I?
I would be much more able to accept him as a slightly insensitive person, reassess my opinion of him and not let it bother me that much, certainly not confront him with it. Or would I?
Snow, I wouldn’t tell him in hope that he changed or said sorry. Actually I just don’t want him to think that I am distanced (because I think I need a bit of distance for myself, like toning down texts etc)because of his decision to go away. That would be truly childish. I‘m absolutely on board with his decision. I was hurt by the way he behaved/talked, not because he decided to leave, and I don’t want him to think I’m that unfair.
I‘m working to tone down the anger and get into a more benevolent mindset- I won’t initiate conversation about it but in case he asks I want to clarify the matter in a non-reproachful and friendly way. But my guess is, he won’t ask since I think the reason why he didn’t tell me was fear, and the reason why he won’t ask why I’m distanced will be fear too;)or (and that vexes me) that he thinks I’m angry because he‘s leaving…
Ok I‘m rambling. I just want to say I really appreciate your input, thank you so much, and you are both right on so many levels!
Snow, I’m glad your heart is healthy!
And me, being me, I would go to this thing tomorrow. I would forever ask myself how it was and if he would have come to say goodbye if I had been there etc. I like seeing for myself. But you might need something different and only you know what’s best for you!
Hi Mila, coming back from business travel and missed so much. Not had chance to read everything, however, I would say he knows you always take the lead and you will ask questions to get it out of him what’s going on. Could be that he is in a bit of denial about the whole work/life decision thing himself and try to act cool about it when he may still not know what he actually wants, he’s leaving it to fate/ his SO , whatever. Obvs I don’t know !! It’s a possibility.
Like you said he knows it’s important to you the direction he will finally take, but maybe he’s trying to play it down to avoid you getting potentially upset or avoid triggering any feelings he has hidden away/pushed down in the depths of his mind/heart.
All I would suggest is not to ask anymore or wrangle it out of him. He needs to be an adult and a proper friend and proactively tell you what the plans are going to be or come to you for advice. Simples.
…. Oh Mila rereading my post I sounded a bit non sympathetic, sorry. I meant “simples” in an ironic way, cause of course this limerence cr#p is anything but !!!
Don’t worry Imho, you never sound non sympathetic 😘😘
Hi Imho,
Thanks so much! You are right too. As I said, I think he didn’t tell me out of fear of upsetting me and also speaking out loud that he made a decision (as he seems not even have spoken about it directly to his SO, they just go about buying a house etc but don’t seem to communicate about it).
„ All I would suggest is not to ask anymore or wrangle it out of him. He needs to be an adult and a proper friend and proactively tell you what the plans are going to be or come to you for advice“
It’s a bit late for that since I asked and wrangled already (I don’t regret that, at least I know what’s what now), there’s no plan or advice to give, he already decided.
My problem was/is that I feel the urge to tell him I’m a bit hurt by me having to wrangle it out of him although I told him several times to tell me as soon as he‘s decided, and behaving like he did, saying what he said etc…not hurt because he leaves!
I feel the need for distance on my side now, but explaining it would mean accusing him (I don’t want that), and not explaining means him thinking I’m petulant and hurt because he decided to leave (which I’m not, I do understand his decision as such).
I really reassess our friendship now, not only out of limerence, but generally, I think I overestimated him a bit. Which is actually good for killing limerence, to see that he‘s a bit inconsiderate, insensitive , a bit egotistical , and doesn’t even manage to communicate properly with his SO. So, less to lose when he goes away?
On the other side, I’m of course sad that he leaves, and want to acknowledge my own feelings for him in front of myself.
I‘m a mixture of contradicting urges at the moment.
In detail that means I’m not sure how to behave now- should I wish him a good journey today as I would have usually done, or not, should I reply to texts or photos he‘ll send from his trip…should I explain to him that I’m ok with his decision but a bit hurt by his way of not telling me, or just not say anything about it even if he asks..
I know it would maybe the best to go on as always – wish him a good journey, otherwise just politely reply etc, but distance myself inside. No drama, keeping a friendship that will be much more superficial than I thought, but still keep it somehow.
But that feels a bit like treating myself bad, telling myself „don’t make a fuss“ and belittle myself. That doesn’t feel good either. So I‘m a bit torn how to behave now.
I hope you had a good trip Imho!
And that you are in a better place concerning your LE. (Although, I think this phase if my LE is now really moving me forward towards the end. I‘m lucky in that, it’s not such a bad place to be in)
Mila, you are lightning fast in your responses! I’m so slow to think and type, and you see here I’m two steps behind your story. Maybe I still saw some uncertainty (this shows where my mind is at !).
Anyhow it’s good it’s playing out even if not in the best way. its moving forwards regardless -you have the certainty now which hopefully snuffs out the limerence.
You have retained friends from your previous LEs so it’s maybe reflecting on how you made that happen, and I guess it’s just behaving the way that is your authentic self with integrity. As you said don’t belittle yourself, you are too worthy of a friend to others (and to yourself for that matter) to do that.
I don’t see why you have to be the proactive one all the time, on the words I mean. ( I know he is proactive on picture sharing etc but that is different).
I’m ok thanks. Business trips help give perspective and fill my mind and time with other people and other thoughts….
Hi Imho,
I‘m fast but maybe it would be better to think a bit more before writing and not just getting verbal diarrhea over the LwL site every time I encounter a minor crisis.
Which doesn’t hinder me to go on some more.
While I’m not friends, but still on speaking and working terms with LO1 (a small miracle given what a disaster this LE has been)I’m still friends with LO 2, that’s true. It’s due to mutual affection and also , if I’m allowed to flatter myself a bit, due to me being a loyal and comfortable person to be friends with.
I think the reason why I doubt ongoing friendship with current LO now is because LO2 was authentic himself in showing me affection and even telling me about it (nothing inappropriate, just on a friendship level), while we had much less stable contact than I have with current LO, and because current LO is much less authentic and has problems to show any emotion at all.
I‘m still not wholly out of the danger zone of telling him I’m a bit disappointed or sad about him not telling me.
But will turn it in my mind for a while.
My business trip helped me very much too, Imho. You seem to have a lot of them! That might help long-term too.
*(I mean telling me about his decision while he knew I waited for it for months.)
Mila, “a loyal and comfortable person to be friends with.” I’m sure you are.
And LO is not your only friend to focus on, right !
Dont let it nag at your thoughts. It will pass. Seems he just isn’t good communicator generally. I’m now trying to guess your LOs star sign!
Yes, I should go on a business trip every week, it could be the cure, unless I go to his country again of course !
Hi Imho!
Of course, I’ve got other lovely friends. Spent yesterday the whole morning with my friend and her baby, and met my young friends from work today for coffee. All of them would have opened up much more to me when they would have made such a decision. That’s no solace, somehow.
His star sign is Gemini, and the usual description of Gemini people doesn’t fit at all. I even think he‘s the exact opposite.
My next business related trip is the week after next, will meet LO2 and his fiancée for sure, which is indeed a small solace since it proves I did at least something right in LE2.
I‘m really grieving a bit, although I will meet him several times before he leaves, for several reasons.
Hi Mila, okay Ive now lost any merit in astrology ! Not that I did before, but it’s a fun pastime. Gemini was bottom of my guess list for your LO. You are more like Gemini, as you have some traits, chatty, friendly, quick thinking, enjoys writing.
Sorry you are now in a phase of grieving. It’s the right word as the loss of LO and closeness /proximity of a good friend cannot be underestimated – and have to suffer it alone. I remember a friend left my place of work years ago and I was so upset much more than her ( she said ‘stop crying Imho we are going to still be friends’). We remain friends but of course I don’t get to see her nearly as often and I don’t have that same closeness anymore when our desks were next to each other.
I have never experienced the end of an LE but I dread it, as this phase will inevitably come and it will be lonely.
I hope you find some distractions that lift your sprits just a little and words from the lovely LwL folks are helping give you some small comfort in your grief.
You have my permission to indulge in some chocolate…. 😘
…. ok maybe chocolate AFTER your walk with frederico. Enjoy! I’m also going for a walk later. May is a beautiful month for nature- where I am.
Hi Imho and frederico,
If you could see the deluge that’s coming down here including hail and lightning…
Hopefully it’ll clear up later for my walk ( I count on you frederico!)
As I said, Gemini doesn’t fit LO at all. My own star sign would be much more fitting.
Chocolate, hmm! I have to admit that I resorted to that kind of solace a bit too often in the last days. So, maybe not, but I appreciate the sentiment😘you, Imho, being the only one who truly appreciates my kissing Emojis;)
I feel much better. I just hope it’s not denial but true progress.
I looked duly at his photos (not of people but things he saw), liked two of them and sent a thumbs up. Not very cordial, maybe, but I’ve decided not to do anything I don’t feel like, just to please him.
If its chocolate, I prefer dark. I know I am in the minority but my father liked dark chocolate so most of mother’s baked recipes contained dark chocolate. If it’s an actual chocolate candy bar than you can’t beat 3 Musketeers.
Adam.
I love dark chocolate too. I think a had a conversation with Marcia about it some time back.
Strewth;) I saw those 3 Musketeer bars when I was in US, but didn’t try them. Don’t they feature in „Friends“ too at some point?
Mila et al
**checks live European weather map and nods knowingly**
Actually, I’ve been out just now. Only 5000 steps though.
No dark chocolate for me. Prediabetic diet invoked last week. Bother. Very little alcohol too, apparently. Bother.
I’ve never actually had 3 Musketeers. I expect Sammy has.
frederico,
I was halfway out the door when I decided to check here if you went out, and you did!
I‘m going now.
Bother with the prediabetic diet indeed!
But I noticed a lot of times that alcohol doesn’t do me good anyway, maybe you too won’t miss it that much when, say, your sleep will improve and your mood get better with less alcohol and sugar.
5000 steps sounds a lot.
Frederico
I can easily due without sugar. But no alcohol at all?!?! I don’t want to live on this planet anymore; to quote the great Dr Farnsworth.
I had a co-worker, many years ago in my twenties, that carried his insulin and needles in a Crown Royal bag which I thought was hilariously ironic lol
5800 steps, federico.
Sorry, correction🙈
9200.
Read the wrong day.
Hello everyone. Thought this would a good time to touch base with you all. I seem to be doing better in terms of handling my LE. When there is NC, I am feeling better and better. When there is some contact, I am managing my emotions better, with lesser anxiety and turmoil. There was some recent virtual contact, and though it did make me happy (won’t lie about it), it was not followed by debilitating lows due to the NC. The interactions do make me happy, can’t really suppress that, but I try to leave it at that, and not try to more actively seek LO.
My LwL visits have also been reducing, I am checking the website after a week I think. Will check in every now and then, and ask for help, and share advice.
Wish you all the very best in your LEs.
Hi ABCD,
good to hear from you, I was wondering about you!
Glad to hear you are doing better and better.
Keep us posted!
Thanks Mila! How are things going with you, sorry I have not been visiting Lwl frequently.
Hi ABCD,
don’t apologize, isn’t it a good sign not to visit this site too often.
I‘ll try a short version since I‘ve tried the patience of LwL users a lot over the last days with my rambling posts.
I had a few bad days that ultimately led me forward- I finally wormed out of my LO that he will leave for good (as was to be expected) and I was hurt, not that he leaves, but that he hasn’t told me by himself, but I had to guess it by things his SO told me and finally ask him myself straightforward, although I had made it very clear to him that the uncertainty is very vexing for me and I need to know his decision as soon as he made it, and he had promised to tell me immediately.
Now I‘ve calmed down and seen with the help of wise LwL members that I do mourn two different things, and other wise stuff – to be short, I feel much better, not that angry any more and not limerent, and I feel that I made a big step towards making this LE history and nothing more in the foreseeable future.
Your LE seems to go under in a calmer way than mine, which is probably much better.
recently i read a Dr L post about how a limerent wants LO as a sexual partner.
Are you sure about that?
I have had my LO for almost a year know, and never have I ever got any thought about sex in any way, consciously or subconsciously. she is not even that good. for the record,
there are lots of other available women i know with which i would rather sleep with.
just wanted to know whether anyone else feels the same way.
I am a bit of an occasional limerent ‘lurker’ otherwise wouldn’t be here I suppose. But just to throw something else doubly toxic into the mix here as good as anywhere else. And I know it is a cliché etc but in this case, “I really did have female friend that” had a psychologically based sexual arousal disorder with a fairly clearly recognised cause. But it didn’t prevent her from being limerant, she had been accepted as a ‘trophy partner’ for a year before being traumatically and humiliatingly rejected for someone else later. And then rejected a limerent later despite reciprocating.
There seems to be quite a lot of it on both sides of the heterosexual divide. They have their own dating sites and my friend eventually found a longstanding partner on one of them. So there must be some out there who are perhaps unknowingly indirectly affected by it. I think it might be interesting just as a new perspective on the meaning of limerent consummation.
“there seems to be quite a lot of it”
@chris x,
sorry, but i am afraid i do not get what you are coming at.quite a lot of what?
Nisor/Limerent Nurse/MJ and anyone else
The sermon today was about us as humans being a house for the Holy Spirit. And the feelings of inadequacy or doubt are what the Enemy uses against us so that we won’t accept the Holy Spirit within us and fall prey to sin. I thought that was a straight arrow pointed right at me. I struggle to understand why God thinks I am worthy.
Adam I can relate especially when I think of all I did in my LE. What helps me is that the Bible says ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory and there is none that are righteous. Someone explained to me we are drowning in sin and need to rescued. Some of us are 5 feet underwater in sin and some are 100 feet under. But, we are all drowning! And our only hope is Jesus. God offers is grace to all of us. None of us are worthy. Only He is. His grace is a free gift to all who believe and trust in Jesus. I hope this makes sense. You are doing great Adam! Rest in Him. He loves you.
Hi Adam,
A Buddhist teacher Tara Brach, calls it ‘the trance of unworthiness’.
I guess it’s something we all struggle with. Though God doesn’t have favorites.
You’re as worthy as anyone else.
Instead of going to the pub on Friday night. I bought some zero percent alcohol beer and went home.
Zero percent alcohol beer? Good for you! 👏
Hi Snowphoenix,
I felt I wanted to give myself a break from my usual routine.
I think it was my shadow or the ‘still small voice’ saying give up alcohol for a while. I’ll see where it goes. I really only indulge as I’ve said on Friday nights.
My whole limerence narrative has deserted me. I don’t want it to be my identity.
Have a good week.
Hi Grego,
sorry, haven’t followed your posts, so what you wrote could have a completely different meaning for you, but this
“ My whole limerence narrative has deserted me.”
sounds like I feel.
I feel my limerent habit pulling me back to the old story of the sensitive LO with hidden big feelings, and then I wake up again.
It leaves a hole inside that I haven’t replaced yet.
Maybe some zero-alcohol beer would do the trick.
Crego, Mila,
As many of our fellow posters have pointed out, limerence is just an elongated, giant “dream” fabricated in limerents’ head during our waking hours in active limerence. Such a vivid, enliven dream has taken place under what DrL defines — an “altered state of mind”,
Now, our limerence mind is awakened either by some fateful events or self realization through others’ painful LEs… Then, as the fog of this intricate dream is gradually or suddenly “cleared up”, our mind/heart is left with a gigantic hole, which can or cannot be filled…. The pain is real!
Our limerence was a part of our life, nothing we could do to change such a personal history. But one’s identity is never fixed, it is fluid evolving always — a Buddhist view, everything is impermanent. So if we could get out of limerence, then our future identify would not include “limerent” anymore….
Then, we can watch/observe our mind like a hawk, making sure it does not slip into another LE, while still being able to realistically fall in love and build up a lasting romantic relationship that will involve its normal highs and lows…. It is still possible.
I’m undergoing the physical and mental symptoms of a forced withdrawal from LE. There is never enough time or mental preparation to avoid this painful step… I’m hoping that my meditation could eventually help reduce them…
This Morning
Charles Simic
1938 –2023
Enter without knocking, hard-working ant.
I’m just sitting here mulling over
What to do this dark, overcast day?
It was a night of the radio turned down low,
Fitful sleep, vague, troubling dreams.
I woke up lovesick and confused.
I thought I heard Estella in the garden singing
And some bird answering her,
But it was the rain. Dark tree tops swaying
And whispering. “Come to me my desire,”
I said. And she came to me by and by,
Her breath smelling of mint, her tongue
Wetting my cheek, and then she vanished.
Slowly day came, a gray streak of daylight
To bathe my hands and face in.
Hours passed, and then you crawled
Under the door, and stopped before me.
You visit the same tailors the mourners do,
Mr. Ant. I like the silence between us,
The quiet—that holy state even the rain
Knows about. Listen to her begin to fall,
As if with eyes closed,
Muting each drop in her wild-beating heart
Hi Snowphoenix,
But one’s identity is never fixed, it is fluid evolving always — a Buddhist view, everything is impermanent. So if we could get out of limerence, then our future identify would not include “limerent” anymore….
No-self (Anatta) No existing separate self. Yes, I agree, and an identity is either self-created or something we’ve had fostered on us. All identities have to be seen as provisional and have to be looked at deeply to see they are only temporary and not ‘who we actually are’.
btw in the ‘Communication after an affair’ I posted something in response to one of your post. I added a few lines of verse from famous American Beat poet. You might have to scroll a bit to find it. It;s from about the 14th of May.
Grego,
“No-self (Anatta) No existing separate self. Yes, I agree, and an identity is either self-created or something we’ve had fostered on us. All identities have to be seen as provisional and have to be looked at deeply to see they are only temporary and not ‘who we actually are’.”
Anatta, the Buddhist’s non-existing self is still hard for me to completely digest although I have experienced it, I agree with it from the point of physical/cosmos energy flow.
Since we still actively live in the society and want to blend in as harmoniously as possible, we cannot ignore/rid of those manmade conceptions and social personalities — both vary from culture to culture, change from time to time. MBTI is such a narrow-minded, fixed view on people, IMO, disrespectful to developing and evolving human being! I would not “shrink” myself to a one-type; we all multifaceted.
In addition, no one should be and can be identified merely by their jobs, careers, possessions, characteristics, kinship or friend circle, they all have changed and are still changing. As an immigrant, I’ve literally lived through those necessary or chosen, unbelievable changes…😳
Once I told LO (and toasted together) that I’ve had 3 or 4 lives considering my origins and various experiences … Sometimes, I felt my whole life is just a continuous dream, everything is intangible, fluid, surreal… so hard to grasp or solidify… that’s why I could let go off things more easily…
Then when I meditate well, making energy flow through warmly, all those external identities even “evaporate” more… all their descriptions lose all their meanings, words fail to capture sensational experiences that promote better/healthier state of body and mind. So called “energy-medicine” works, only that I can’t show concrete data to DrL.
It’s the human condition I think. A lot of us don’t feel worthy. Myself included. I was at Mass last night and I struggled through the whole thing. Partly because I’ve become so tired of the monotony of the Mass I attend. Plus the Deacon gave the homily and he read the entire thing. It was beyond a bore. I hardly got anything out of it but oh well.
It was also a challenging Friday night with Lady Friend because I was struggling so much trying not to let my feelings for her just pour out. I felt inadequate around her all night. Was afraid I was being too awkward and I let her know it. She told me to not worry so much and take a deep breath. Which I did.. Trying not to be so pathetic about it. Really only worried about ruining a good thing if I say something I shouldn’t.
As much as I pray, I often feel like God isn’t listening. It’s usually in hindsight when I look back and see that I was wrong. Lady Friend reminded me of this.
A wise older Priest at a Church I used to attend, would add into many of his homilies this advice. It always got a laugh or two.
“Be what you is. Cuz if you is what you ain’t, you ain’t what you is.”
I think it’s good advice..
@ MJ,
‘“Be what you is. Cuz if you is what you ain’t, you ain’t what you is.”’
Frank Zappa had a song on one of his last albums using those words. Its called ‘You are what you is’. It’s a great song.
I don’t feel so great today. Really feel out of sorts.
I like the point of your post though. No point trying to be what we’re not…
I’ll leave it there.
@Grego,
Frank Zappa.. You have good taste my Friend..
Sorry you’re bummed out. Do something that will take your mind off what’s bringing you down. I did and I had a much better Sunday..
In Solidarity..
🤜🏻🤛🏻
“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” – Kurt Vonnegut [Mother Night]
Hi MJ,
About the mass last night: “It was beyond a bore.” Yup , I can also say the same of my Pastor yesterday, I was falling asleep, not because his sermons aren’t good, but his voice is so calming and relaxing that it puts me to sleep. Thank God, we have other pastors, much younger who are full of energy and passionate and keep the audience engaged and excited by the Word. Not everyone is gifted to be a preacher. There are different ministries like, apostles, teachers of the word, evangelists, etc. They have to find their place in the church. I don’t like churches where they just read from
a book without adding their interpretation and expanding on it, or giving no room for application with real life experiences. The Word is alive, it’s not to be put in a closet or be dismissed so lightly…
What happens most of the time is that the pastor or priest is sometimes lazy, or are busy with other things, and don’t spend time by themselves in the presence of the Lord, praying for wisdom and getting illuminated and guidance before delivering a sermon ,hence they can get the inspiration and the golden nuggets revealed to them and have them shared with the congregation. One can tell by their preaching if they have spent time together with the Lord alone. Always room for improvement!
Have a great week. Hugs
MJ,
What’s with Friday night being challenging with Lady friend? You had a date? Hmmm …
No date, we’re just Co-workers and was at work Friday night. Sometimes she makes me nervous. Only trying to put my best foot forward because I am somewhat attracted to her.
MJ, hi
I’m glad you found a person to be attracted to besides LO. No one can replace LO, yours or mine; but the fact that this girl can catch your attention is refreshing to know. It’s like the fog is starting to lift, somehow. Even if it’s just a friendship. I know you’re a gentleman and surely she appreciates that feature in you. Time will tell , we’re rooting for you.
Big bear hug.
@Adam,
So true! The enemy, and our flesh, can hinder or try to prevent our growth in God. But I encourage you to not give up. It takes practice to take God at His word… it’s no easy feat. Everything you are encountering is normal — you are delving into spiritual things, and it will be unlike the things you once knew or learned. 🌟
It will be turbulent at times, but keep learning and seeking Him, and you will have breakthroughs.
Beth 2
I like the drowning parable. It is quite apt. It feels like I’m drowning and there is an undertow. Perhaps the Enemy is using my lingering guilt and shame as well to keep me from accepting the Holy Spirit. It feels “right” to be guilty for what I have done in limerence. But it does not seem to be helpful. I just have to accept that I am unworthy, but despite that God is giving me a chance.
Grego
Good for you on that. It is my biggest struggle, even more than limerence. Why my wife gives me grace from my struggle I don’t know. It seems to be something that breweries are understanding there’s a demand for. I recently have been seeing ads for Heineken zero alcohol beer.
MJ
I found out after my Lady Friend visited that she had recently came out of an abusive relationship. My wife told me after she had already went back home. Talk about a MAJOR rescue complex trigger. I have been biting my tongue till it bleeds to not call her and gush. Or do it on facebook. Or even call my sister in law. That was back in March and I am still fighting it. So I get what you are saying with your Lady Friend to a degree. It feels so overwhelming to not express those emotions.
But I realize that apologizing on behalf of my gender is more for my own benefit. She has seemed to move past it and is a better woman despite what was done to her. I just want to put my fist through a wall. I don’t understand how a man could do that to such a wonderful woman. Maybe I need to buy a punching bag.
L.E.
I like that quote. I pretended for a very long time to be the son that my parents wanted met to be. But that wasn’t me. I think I am paying for that pretending in mid life. That’s why my mid life has been a crisis.
Limerent Nurse
In the pastor’s sermon yesterday he said that Jesus said PRACTICE my words. Jesus knew we could not follow them perfectly right off the bat. And he didn’t ask us to do that. He wanted us to make the effort to follow his word and practice them. The pastor talked about him coaching a new school’s football team. He said that this week (it was their first practice) was terrible. But by Friday they were better. We have to keep trying to follow Jesus’ words and we will get better. But if we never try we won’t get anywhere. It is the effort that matters.
@Adam,
Yes! This is exactly right! Practice is so important, whether in our new-found faith, or in our limerent issues. I am ok with not being perfect at things. I have learned to give myself grace in my weaknesses. But that does not give me the right to do wrong. I merely mean that I acknowledge my weaknesses to myself and God, and make an earnest effort to practice being better about them. 🌟
Regarding limerence, the first coworker that my brain started to focus in on has recently told me he used to date married women(!). I was kinda surprised he told me that; he’s usually so close-lipped. I think this was when he was younger. Anyway, it helped me in my regard to not have limerent feelings for him, but to just have coworker friendship feelings for him. He knows of my faith. I don’t think he was trying to come on to me, I think he was being honest in his dating past.
The other guy that started triggering my limerent emotions recently has been what appears to be actively ignoring me when in my realm? Which is fine because normally I would overthinking things… and now I practice thinking “he doesn’t owe me anything; I don’t owe him anything. We had a few nice conversations, but that’s all it can really ever be.”
Sometimes looking at things from these different angles helps me. Instead of beating myself up for my tendencies, I thank the Lord that He revealed them to me, that He’s helping me, and I keep moving forward.💙
“I have learned to give myself grace in my weaknesses.”
I am trying to do the same with myself. But at the same guard against making the same mistake. Especially in limerence. I had a dream about my new Lady Friend, and I was telling Mila about it in another post and she said that she wanted me to be careful not to make the same limerent mistake. It wasn’t inappropriate or anything. Just an in general dream about her. I can’t stop dreams. And I haven’t been having any intrusive thoughts so I think I am okay. But it is good to get an outside opinion, because sometimes our evaluations of our own limerence are tainted.
This Wednesday is the last family night before it starts back up after labor day. The church takes a break during the summer when the kids are out of school. So I am looking forward to that. I am feeling a bit more comfortable in social settings at church. I actually spoke up more than once at men’s Bible study last week. Which was really unheard of (haha pun intended) for me.
I think regarding my new Lady Friend that I really, really don’t want it to turn into limerence. I would very much like to keep her as a friend and not ruin it with possessive and intrusive thoughts. So I am really diligent in keeping my rescue complex in check.
Hi Adam,
I surely didn’t mean to reproach you for your dream! If you knew what dreams I’ve had about all sorts of inappropriate people 🙄it’s our subconscious working on stuff or just idly throwing things together…
I just meant, as you yourself said, that she seems to have a lot of triggers for you and this would be the moment to recognize the danger- and that’s what you apparently do, just like me when my colleague started to glimmer all of a sudden…
Enjoy your friendship by all means, Adam, I didn’t want to come over judgmental 🙈
Mila
I know that you weren’t. I am glad that you said what you did to me in the other post. Thing is I find it hard to speak up if I feel that it is heading that way. I don’t want to put my wife through something like that again, and I certainly don’t want my sister in law thinking I have inappropriate thoughts about her lifetime friend.
I do not think you came off judgmental. And I appreciate you speaking up for my benefit. I didn’t nip in the bud the first time whether I knew what limerence was or not. I knew something was going on that shouldn’t have been. I really don’t want that to happen again.
I appreciate all you ladies that speak up and are not afraid to say what you know needs to be said. I very much enjoy the female perspective, as us men can misread kindness and friendliness the wrong way. And as fun as she is to be around I do not want to loose that with her.
Hi Adam,
just be vigilant is all I say;)
She seems to be friends with your wife too, so maybe involve your wife in interactions and all will stay harmless? Only a suggestion.
I was wondering, MJ and you have got a lady friend, what would you call it the other way round, a gentleman friend? 😃
I texted my gentleman friend because of the result of his new workplace‘s decision to keep him on, but he doesn’t have it yet and immediately took the chance to send me a picture from his trip and gush about it. I was only able to react to this with emoji, not very nice, but I simply don’t feel like being interested in his trip and life other than this result now.
I know I’m cooling everything down and come across as sulky. Don’t like that very much, but can’t help myself.
Mila
Hopefully the next time they come down to visit Momma can come with us. The last time they were here she stayed with our nephew so that her other sister and her husband could have some time alone together. But she was invited to come along.
I talked to my wife several times while we were out checking on her to make sure she was doing okay with our nephew as he has special needs. Momma was okay with staying at the hotel while we all went out. But yeah hopefully next time she can tag along with us.
I only went into alert mode one time, when we were in a bar and I saw a man talking to her that from her body language I could tell the attention was unwanted. Next thing I know brother in law’s hand is on my shoulder and he says “believe me she can take care of herself.” He already knew what I was thinking lol But then I would have done the same from my sister in law too. Or Momma if she was there.
@Mila,
“I was wondering, MJ and you have got a lady friend, what would you call it the other way round, a gentleman friend? 😃”
I think that would be a proper way to refer to him as such.
I say it like that because that’s really all we are at this point. The last thing I want is another LE. At times it’s hard not to want to be. Yet when I do think of her and LO, LO by far still turns a different crank. They are the same age but I think it’s just who she is and how she presents herself. There’s like an aura around her, a certain grace in how she moves and carries herself in situations. Even in looking at her picture, it just flat floors me to the ground. She’s just that right.
Lady Friend is almost like that, but not quite. She’s just not as refined, but still spectacular to look at. She checks off a whole lot of boxes on my list. I could not have asked for a better friend to have right now.
I’ve been reading on here again and need to stop again. It brings back LE memories again and then I think too much and come close to a relapse. I struggled for over 5 years, disclosed, did unwise things and was a mess. I felt hopeless to get over it at times. Limerence to me is awful and all I can say is what’s been helping me. Always remember there is hope.
1. Going the lowest contact possible
2. When thoughts of LO enter my mind I picture a stop sign and say stop out aloud if I am alone or in my mind.
3. If I still feel I need to think of LO I think of the most boring interactions. No dreaming of interactions not based in reality.
4. Getting rid of all texts, emails, or anything that reminds me of LO.
5. Stopped talking about LO to others. Even talking about negative things was still keeping LE going.
6. Thought what it would feel like if my SO had a LO and did all the same things I did and had the same interactions. I realized it would have been awful for me and to continue to reach out to the LO is not fair or honoring my vows to LO.
7. Thought about what LO’s spouse would feel like having someone interacting with their spouse like I did. I would not like it all.
8. Took his number out of my phone.
9. Went to therapy
10. Allowed myself to grieve and cry. So much of my LE was disenfranchised grief and unfulfilled dreams all wrapped in an imaginary person and relationship. It felt like LO was the answer but no LO can fix us.
11. I realized I can’t be friends with LO and thankfully they have backed away. I wish I could as there are many years he was in my life and there were some good memories but it’s not worth the price. This is a big struggle and today I felt the urge and fought the urge to contact him on social media.
12. Going to God with my struggles and guilt and when I relapse
13. Stopped listening to love songs unless for my SO and watching romantic movies.
14. Channeled my love into my SO. Instead of doing nice things for LO or buying them gifts, coffees or showering them with compliments, do that for your SO. If you don’t have SO do that for a friend, relative or maybe volunteer.
15. Take up hobbies or fitness.
16. Read topics here that are what you’re struggling with. Listen to podcasts like the Crappy Childhood Fairy
17. Come here for support when weak
18. Stop looking for closure. It really doesn’t matter what LO thinks in the end
19. If they wanted to they would and remember no response is a response.
20. Stop going to their social media or interacting on social media. Still working on this one.
This is what helped me. Writing this helped me fight the nostalgia I have today and the urge to reach out to LO on social media. Now I am so glad I didn’t! I never seem to regret not reaching out but always regret reaching out.
Hello Beth 2
I am sorry that today you have been fighting nostalgia and the urge to reach out on social media. Oh, goodness, I can certainly empathise and it is good to know that you managed to resist.
You have been through such a lot over the past few months and that must have been a challenge, to say the least.
The list must have taken you ages to write. It is so accurate. I feel like pinning it somewhere.
f
Thanks Frederico! I think we’re in similar places in our journey and it’s like a roller coaster. It’s now 5 months since talking to LO and that’s the longest since this all started. The finality is starting to sink in so I think there is part of me that fears there will never be contact again. But from past experience I know that just sets me back I don’t want this anymore. How are you doing?
Actually it’s funny the list took about 30 minutes and it’s just because I’ve been in this LE so long the tactics have become a part of me. So much was learned here. I’ve also had so much time on my hands following surgery.
Beth 2
Yes, the realisation of probably not seeing each other again can be a very lonely one.
I last exchanged messages with my LO last Christmas, very much contrived by me, so that’s also five months now. It was not a very satisfying exchange.
I have memories of being obsessed with grey and blue WhatsApp ticks last year, for instance, and I am determined that I will never be so needy again. It’s history.
You’re right though, the “journey” is like a roller coaster and the unwelcome addition of medical treatment doesn’t help one bit. With serious illness and surgery, the reality is that clever medical interventions are humbling and amazing but they can also be painful and intrusive. Meanwhile the other aspects of life need to carry on as usual and recovery can be frustratingly slow.
Specifically regarding limerence, I don’t want this anymore either. I am gradually strangling the beast once and for all.
Today, on my walk in the sunshine, I suddenly became irritated by thoughts of LO. How dare he send me affectionate messages and emojis and then ghost me? How dare he crush my self-esteem? Then I decided, through gritted teeth, that the affectionate messages, albeit now deleted, will become a kind of bittersweet memory. I quickly put up the red Stop Sign – as in number two on your list – but it will no doubt happen again.
So, actually I’m doing ok (really!) and I hope that, overall, you are too.
f
I am sorry you are getting the urge to contact LO, Beth. Been there, done that. As you rightly mentioned, reaching out rarely had the desired effect.
Your list is really awesome. I have tried many of these, they really work.
Thanks ABCD! Yeah it’s officially 5 months since the last time we spoke and that’s the longest ever and it’s feeling different this time. Like it’s really it. He has been calling me about every 3 months for the last couple of years and said he would call the last time we spoke. It always relapsed me when he called but the idea of never talking again well that’s scary. It’s because I became dependent on him. It is getting easier the longer it goes without talking. How are you doing
Love your list, Beth 2!
I would add that journaling has helped me a lot, too. To just get all the stuff out of my heart and head. I do this knowing that God is with me, helping me process all the emotions.
(And when I am done with a journal, I throw it away.) 🗑
Thanks for sharing your update, Mila. Though his not telling you would have hurt, I am glad that you are getting some clarity in your LE, as you were not sure when or if they would leave. Soon, you will not be seeing LO physically, that will definitely help.
My LE seems to be calmer, as you say, probably because neither of us pushed things too much. Its like you are playing with fire, and then decide to step back for fear of getting burnt. The interactions were pretty controlled. This was due to the natural barriers. She probably gave more “hints” than I did, being a lot more outgoing than I am. In the end analysis, all this does not really matter, does it?
Anyway, coming to the present, I think there will be a significantly long period of NC now, which should help.
ABCD,
sounds good although in my current sceptical state of mind I suddenly doubt all „we“s and „us“s concerning limerents and LOs, like in „neither of us pushed things too much.“ It sounds a bit too much like the belief of a tacit agreement between you two, and I‘m not sure if this is a good recovery mindset.
But I‘m mostly talking about myself here, still being in the middle of a major work-over of my limerence experience , so please don’t heed me if it doesn’t ring a bell with you!
@Mila,
Thank you for your post Mila.
When I said my limerent narrative has deserted me, I meant I don’t really have the willingness to keep rehashing it.
The LO1 story is old and I haven’t seen LO for so long. And yet… and yet…she lives on in my mind.
I’m just living my life really. But I have no plan or clue what to do with limerent memories, feelings. I guess I just have to let them linger without adding fuel to the story.
I wonder what she’d be like now if I met up with her. I have no plan to try and contact her. I may randomly ‘run into’ her one day.
‘What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger’. Or so said Nietzsche.
Limerence didn’t kill me but at the same time I don’t think it made me stronger.
But to be honest I just don’t really know. I eschew certainty. We simply cannot and should not banish Uncertainty.
I’m quite ok with ‘not knowing’.
Hi Grego,
sorry, haven’t followed your posts, so what you wrote could have a completely different meaning for you, but this
“ My whole limerence narrative has deserted me.”
sounds like I feel.
I feel my limerent habit pulling me back to the old story of the sensitive LO with hidden big feelings, and then I wake up again.
It leaves a hole inside that I haven’t replaced yet.
Maybe some zero-alcohol beer would do the trick.
Hi Mila,
I inadvertently left your copied and paste message in my post, as I wanted to reference it as I wrote mine. A bit silly, but these things happen.
Hi Grego,
I understand now what you meant!
I think I use the word „narrative“ wrongly, not being a native speaker.
Me, I meant that I told myself a story about my LO that didn’t quite match his real self, and saw everything he did/said in this light, and now I saw that this story is most probably not true and I couldn’t have expected more from this real person than I got.
That’s what I meant by a narrative that deserted me.
If you are ok with not knowing and if you get tired of rehashing the old stuff over and over again, maybe you are on the way up? Maybe stop rehashing and find something else to focus on.
That’s what I‘m trying to do.
Mila:
Of course, you are right. Who’s to verify all these assumptions we make regarding LO, like she also likes me, that LE is mutual, etc. We think these things just to make ourselves feel better.
Anyway, cut to the present, currently, I am trying not to over analyse LO related things, and it is working. Just trying not to think about it too much, and not giving it too much headspace. The NC will really help too, as LO interactions triggers a whole chain of events in the mind.
Hope that you feel better!
I’m highly limerent for someone whom I almost never see, and I’ve noticed an irrational pattern in my thinking: When I’m feeling sad or stressed out for any reason (which usually has nothing to do with my LO), I jump to the conclusion that my sadness or anxiety are because my LO is not with me. So if I’m having a rough day or feel sad, all I can think about is how much I miss my LO.
Anyone else do this too?
Check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/using-limerence-for-mood-regulation/
Yeah, it’s pretty common.
Sounds like you have other issues going on, that stress you out. Limerence is a byproduct of that because it gives you the dopamine rush your brain craves to make you happy. Which is why you like to think of LO
To answer your question, yes, I’ve been there.
Hello TR:
Yes, looking towards LO for mood regulation is very common. It can be the case that one is feeling sad due to an unrelated issue like loss in the family, trouble at home, and here comes LO, making one feel really good. It would seem that if the root problem is solved, then the need for LO validation may also reduce, though for me personally, there is some distance to cover there. Feel better!
Yes, I do. Or rather, when I’m stressed or sad, my mind immediately covers itself in the warm blanket of LO thoughts. And I imagine how much easier my life would be if just LO and I were together (even though it wouldn’t be any easier it would be harder!)
Well, I gave in and told him in a voice mail.
I know, I know. I just don’t feel authentic writing polite texts and behaving as if nothing happened.
I have no idea if I was fair or hurtful or clear in my message because I simply cannot stand to listen to it again.
I explained why I was hurt after the meeting – not because he leaves- and that I understand now that it’s because we are so different etc etc. nothing hurtful about personality I guess, but it might still have come across a bit insulting, I do hope not.
I worry now, of course . But then I think, if he isn’t that lovely sensitive LO anyway, it doesn’t matter what he thinks about it. The main thing is I have made myself clear. Maybe I destroyed the friendship now. I‘m not sure. I just checked but he already opened it, cannot erase it again.
Oh, gosh.
He reacted immediately in writing.
He owned it all, telling me that people often tell him he‘s differently wired but he cannot change it somehow and doesn’t know anything about who or what he is anyway.
No apology, I noted, but that’s also very in line with his personality. Just telling me he’s stupid and emotionally not open- I’m sure he counts that as an apology.
I don’t need one, I‘m quite happy that he seems to understand and didn’t take it as an insult. I asked if this different person (because I told him that I see now that he‘s a different person from what I thought he was) still wants to be friends, and he responded that whatever this person is because he doesn’t know, it wants that.
So, tension kind of solved. I just have to stick to my new view of him now and not expect any more.
I think I reveal much too many details here, he , for example , would immediately recognize everything, but I cannot help myself at the moment, I seem to need to journal here.
Hi Mila,
Im glad you got it out your chest. What a relief, ah! He answered in kind, so now you know , as he confirmed, who he’s not. That is, not the person you idealized in your mind. But still wants a friendship with you. There’s some kind of closure for you to help you transition from this LE soon, I hope.
Best wishes. Hugs .
Hi Nisor,
Thank you! Yes, on the one side he showed that he really cannot show much emotion and is different wired somehow and admitted it himself. On the other hand I have to hand it to him that he took my criticism (because although I tried to be mild and careful I still said what bothered me about him) in his stride without defending or getting angry.
That’s one of the good sides about him.
I still manage to hold on to my new mindset, but naturally my thoughts get drawn to him, also because he still waits for the decision of his new company (but there‘s little chance they won’t take him). He should know tomorrow latest, I guess.
After that I will have to get through a few more weeks/months until they move for good.
But I feel good and I‘m sure once he‘s safely installed in his new town, we will have a normal long-distance friendship.
@Mila,
I’m glad that you’ve got the stuff off your chest, LO has reacted well and still wants to befriend you. Your prior good friendship with him helped serve such a positive, envious “closure” to your LE, and I think it’s as good as it can go. You can close LE part on your own, while keeping your friendship with LO.
You must feel more released now, I’m happy for you!
I think, in the next weeks before he moves away, there would be still LE lingering ups and downs… A physical presence or absence is real, please be prepared.
Hope for your continuous happy spirit!
Hey Mila,
Sorry for not checking in before. I just want to say ‘wow’ you seem to have managed to walk a very fine line in telling LO what you needed to. And he seems to have taken it in the best way possible. Kudos to you both.
I hope that you feel okay this evening and are able to put it aside for a while. File it under ‘done’, for now. No doubt, there will still be a few intermediate moments before you go long-distance on this friendship. But still, having said your piece, you should not need to have to over-think anything now… and should be able to replace all that time spent thinking with something new (?)
– Not chocolate 😉
Hi Snow and Bewitched,
thanks, I feel ok but not out of the woods yet.
While I agree that we both seemed to have managed that difficult communication well, I can also see that that’s maybe because he‘s not lightly shaken in his determination to be friends with me, because we were friends before and he cannot abide changes, he prefers to sit out my emotional critics. That sounds positive but is also a bit negative. I cannot express myself well.
I still miss the LO I had in my head before , there’s still a bit hope and yearning left.
Called him today after he wrote that his company took him on (no surprises here)to congratulate, he was sitting at lunch with his family, so I kept it short and was maybe a bit stilted. He wanted to linger more and said we will talk soon at a better moment etc., but I feel the danger to slide back.
Chocolate, the great healer, is of course a big help 🙄but I will now try out my new Pilates app and see if that’s something for me to distract me.
I hope you are both ok today! Have a great evening/day!
OK, I’m going to barge in here. Sorry, Bw – I read everything you write. But Mila, you’ve been brilliant. Stuff a large piece of luxurious dark chocolate in your mouth, if you have some.
(Yes, I did have a sneaky whisky after 2 days of abstinence.)
Better go.
f x
frederico,
Thanks❤️
After my Pilates app stalled after 10 minutes (picture frozen), I gave up and just poured myself a rare half glass of white wine. Maybe a piece of dark chocolate to accompany it?
Let’s clink glasses, frederico!
Clink x
🥂😌
@Mila,
“I feel ok but not out of the woods yet.”
Nope, you are definitely NOT out of the woods yet. You sound like having some kind of hope, yet not sure what it is, as LO is still definitely leaving. I might be wrong here, but I intuitively defect some kind of anxiety about your more talks.
“I can also see that that’s maybe because he‘s not lightly shaken in his determination to be friends with me, because we were friends before and he cannot abide changes, he prefers to sit out my emotional critics. “
Is this something he specifically uttered, or your own interpretation or analysis (“I can also see..”) what he might have thought, felt, and done? In the past, I often got confused not sure what your post said was what you thought single-handed, or was what LO had said specifically. In another word, were they your words in your head, or his words from his talks or texts?
“That sounds positive but is also a bit negative. I cannot express myself well.”
I do not quite get what you’re saying here. What exactly sounds positive but also negative? Why and how? Based on what he said or your LE mind said? Please bear in mind that one can say a lot of things one does not really mean, or is afraid to speak up honestly, or one is not quite clear in his/her own head.
“I still miss the LO I had in my head before , there’s still a bit hope and yearning left.”
Ah, here is the “hope and yearning”… The fabricated LO in your head may stay a very, very, very long time. I had one “LO” stayed in my head (calmly) for 4 years after he left for a job across the country. He was my young TA, married with a kid. I barely knew him as an equal; we only spoke a few times for one semester as a professor and a student.
“He wanted to linger more and said we will talk soon at a better moment etc., but I feel the danger to slide back.”
I also feel you’re at the danger of “sliding back”… now LO shows his “positive sides” after you two’s challenging communication. The old resentment is gone through expressing it directly, what else is left? — perhaps loving and sentimental feelings? or even matching the realistic LO with the LO in your head? (I did it a lot of time, and the phantom in my head has always been ideal as I have imagined — almost impossible to remove…)
Thank you for your good wishes… the same to you! 🫂
Hi Snow,
It’s my analysis of him and of how he texts, based on long years of acquaintance, I might be wrong, but then, not even he himself seems to know how he means what etc.
I know that I cannot express what I mean , sorry, but I don’t have the energy to explain it for everybody to understand, I shouldn’t have written it.
It‘s also not that important in the big scheme.
I‘m kind of back on track of disillusionment, don’t worry- I go here and there in my head and make my way not straight, but in the right direction.
@Mila,
“It’s my analysis of him and of how he texts, based on long years of acquaintance, I might be wrong, but then, not even he himself seems to know how he means what etc.”
Well acquainted, you know much, much more than any of us here who LO was/is. If “wrong”, it’s only because we all grow, change, and evolve, and as you say, looking back we don’t know know what we, let along any other, meant when certain things said in the past.
“There’s only one person—our formal self— who could decide the issue; and that self is no longer with us ” — Proust.
“I know that I cannot express what I mean , sorry, but I don’t have the energy to explain it for everybody to understand, I shouldn’t have written it.”
There is no need to explain anything, sorry for my curiosity, which was aroused by our current “similar” situation — LO is physically departing for good. No one else can know/feel how low our energy level is and wherever our “monkey mind” is jumping and swinging….
“I‘m kind of back on track of disillusionment, don’t worry- I go here and there in my head and make my way not straight, but in the right direction.”
Seriously, I’m not worried about you. You are a big girl and have the right direction to aim at. You’d be 10 times more worried if you know where my mind is warbling…. 🧐
You’re eager to get over this LE in your head, but I am not so eager, because the ideal Phantom in my head still brings me inspiration to create or spot small beauties in my trivial existence. IT was generated by me a long time ago, it was a part of me. LO just woke it up and fantasies fueled it. Now the flawed, enigmatic LO, not a close friend, is leaving for good, I can’t help worry that the Phantom would fall back to sleep, making me lethargic.
Please do not feel obligated to respond my posts, Be with yourself most and feel more clear minded and energetic soon! 🫂
Hi Snow,
this phantom, couldn’t you morph it into something unrelated to your leaving LO?
Somehow I can’t imagine you being lethargic for a long period of time, your mind seems like quicksilver, jumping here and there and changing colors. Cannot believe this would just end because real LO is gone, don’t be scared!
My monkey mind is indeed swinging here and there, I don’t like it. I think I should stop interacting with LO for a while because I think I’m a bit on the spiteful and almost-aggressive side. Seems I‘m still hurt, but I’m being unfair, I guess, or at least, it’s completely futile to act it out on him.
It would be better for both of us to take a break, maybe. Or I should just pull myself together and be nicer…
Actually I have visitors and lots to do, I should really concentrate on other stuff.
I‘m not concentrating enough on my upcoming project next week, which made my subconsciousness send me a really stressful work-related dream tonight.
Hope I don’t get another one tonight..
Sleep well, all fellow limerents.
Hi Mila,
“this phantom, couldn’t you morph it into something unrelated to your leaving LO?”
I knew more than a couple of years that LO is not the Phantom, who only wears LO’s face. I tried hard to separate them and succeeded last spring and summer. But once the job situation hit, my heart began to change. knowing it’s an eternal NC, I wanted to savor every minute left to amicably encounter LO.
Now, stripping the face of LO off the shapeless Phantom is no joking matter, since the attachment of a surrogate parent is stronger than I could comprehend or ever imagined. If a new potent LO comes along, maybe the Phantom can survive; otherwise IT will curl back deep inside me, naturally dozing off.
“Somehow I can’t imagine you being lethargic for a long period of time, your mind seems like quicksilver, jumping here and there and changing colors. “
Mental and physical Lethargy have already began, so I tried to engage the mind in some perky ways to keep it awake at least for the time being.
“Cannot believe this would just end because real LO is gone, don’t be scared!”
I knew what my mind was like before LO suddenly dropped in from god knows where… Right now, he’s not out of my system yet, so you sense my “agitated denial” to his departure.
“My monkey mind is indeed swinging here and there, I don’t like it. I think I should stop interacting with LO for a while because I think I’m a bit on the spiteful and almost-aggressive side. Seems I‘m still hurt, but I’m being unfair, I guess, or at least, it’s completely futile to act it out on him.”
It might be the last chance that you can frequently interact with LO, perhaps thinking about the bigger picture of your life canvas would help dissipate your hurt and resentment? I have zero complaint left for LO, only some regrets that I didn’t take more time getting to know who he LO was/is.
“It would be better for both of us to take a break, maybe. Or I should just pull myself together and be nicer…”
You can control only what you do and leave others to their preferences and choices.
I’m in a car traveling to Cape Cod in MA with a couple for the long weekend. Hopefully the nature, walking along beach would calm down my flared neural system…
Hope you feel better over the weekend.
Snow,
How wonderful, a weekend in nature! Enjoy!
I think maybe if you just trust in yourself and the flowing of life, you won’t fall down a cliff of low energy without LO, not for a long time anyway.
Your creative mind and new experiences will finally make a path to new excitement and contentment!
I still have guests, which is nice and we have a good time, but I don’t get enough time to prepare next week which makes me a bit antsy, plus next week will be apart from a professional challenge also a social marathon because I know so many people in that town, and I‘m not quite sure if I feel up to both.
I sort of apologized to LO for needling him a bit, but I think it would really be best to just stop this bloody texting for a while.
I do know that I’m anxious about next week and that’s why I slide back into expecting stuff and certain behavior from him to give me a good feeling. Basically seeing the old perfect LO in him and being annoyed he‘s not acting that part.
I mean I don’t mind me texting him, but I don’t seem to be able to maintain a relaxed friendly atmosphere, so I’d better not text until I’m out of this mood.
I wish you, Snow, a happy weekend, and everybody else too!
Hey, Mila
I think it was actually a positive thing to do, for you and your peace of mind. That’s because a lot of pressure had built up and this was a way for you to release it. This was probably the only reasonable opportunity. Yes, you may have burnt your bridges, just a little, but the episode may bring you something akin to closure.
We all relate to things looking at our own experiences. I am relating your situation to mine. My LO’s behaviour was incredibly hurtful. I spent far too much time last year composing and then honing a message explaining things and I think I was driving myself slightly crackers. I even put it on a voice memo to listen to when I was out walking.
At Christmas, I forced myself to tone it down into a shorter more gracious text message which ended with my saying something like “more importantly, I get it, I do understand, you now have a new life and sometimes we just have to move on a bit”.
For me that stabilised my emotions somewhat because I had “got it off my chest”, although it was hard at the time. I hope that you may begin to feel the same.
Of course it wasn’t a panacea and at the moment I sometimes get flashes of anger about the things he once said and the assurances he took the trouble to give me as a close friend. I really thought we would be friends for life. You know how it is, I’m sure, and there do seem to be parallels.
I hope you can find some peace now and, actually, I wouldn’t worry if I were you.
Hi frederico,
Thanks so much.
As I wrote (probably at the same time as you wrote your lovely empathetic post), he replied, but it was still in line with this dry person that couldn’t ever give me emotionally what I would like to get, but I do see that it is the uttermost he can give to anybody. If I understand him right, he doesn’t even talk with his SO straight about emotional matters or even his decision to stay or leave.
Yes, I do believe in getting something off one‘s chest, when it is, like you and I did, not rashly but much consideration and with the sole goal is getting it off the chest, not provoking responses.
There do seem to be parallels indeed, and we‘ll see how it plays out for me in the end. But I‘m already over the anger-zone and still feel that I‘m much less dependent on this new, illusion-free LO than I was before.
Maybe you could also adopt the view that this person that promised you friendship and didn’t keep the promise, was simply not capable. He didn’t have the courage and emotional range and thus just couldn’t. One cannot be angry at a lame person to not run to you, to say it politically incorrect.
Now I have to google „panacea“.
Mila
Your penultimate paragraph – yes, that’s my goal and it’s so true – it really helps when someone else says it too. Thanks.
f
It’s partly Lost in Space’s merit, I have to admit, much as I would like to take the credit:)
There it was also the case that I knew it already, but someone else saying hits kind of differently.
Hello LwL world, and thank you for your sharing as I read all of it and it’s helping me through my LE. Beth 2, if I wasn’t scared my SO would see it, I’d print that list. I’m doing many of the same things but I’m going to try to incorporate the stop sign.
I can’t say enough about NC. Mila, it will take a long time but I think your LO moving is the best thing that can happen for you.
Until yesterday, I hadn’t seen my LO in 2 months. It was so hard. But gradually I did feel like the mental image of his face and the sound of his voice burned a lot less vividly in my mind. All of Dr. L’s recommendations are working, but it’s so frustrating how long it takes. I wonder, now, if I can ever be indifferent to LO, or will thoughts of him always scratch at the large wound I now have in my heart?
Yesterday I talked to him. I did it on purpose. You see, when I realized I was Limerent, and that I was likely imagining all the connection I thought we’d made, I was in great distress. It didn’t help that my SO was also onto me. He knows something is/was up with that LO. I am not talking about it to SO but that’s a different conversation. All these terrible emotions, shame being the biggest one, were completely overwhelming. I thought I’d been so obvious, and that my LO was disgusted, and would not want to see me. So I avoided him.
In general, he’s easy to avoid and easy to run into at the same time.
After a few weeks, my brain settled down a bit and I realized he probably gave me half a fraction of the thought I gave him, both positive and negative. So I kept up NC but as I feel better now, I am curious to get a hint of what he thinks of me (as in, will I be able to tell if he knows, or will it be clear he doesn’t want to see me?)
I know, I know, there is no closure. I told myself I will likely not be satisfied.
So I found a way to run into him yesterday, and it was good. You can read that split second first reaction I think, and he seemed genuinely happy to see me. He was very warm, and asked how I’d been doing. Of course reminded me why he’s my LO :).
Mostly I felt great after, less powerfully limerent. He’s been a friendly acquaintance far longer than he was an LO, and I wish I could go back to that. A mild crush, a skip in my step when we chat, and that’s it. But I suspect that ship may have sailed.
I will go back to the basics; NC, no socials, avoid running into him. I’ll try not to ruminate over this brief interaction. I know that God is walking this path with me.
I also REALLY hope this doesn’t happen again. I’ve had 2 devastating LE’s and countless mild crushes. I am tired of it.
Do any of our longtime posters, who are not in the height of LE, have advice about managing this aspect of our personalities for the long run? I know there are tricks to try and cut an LE off before it happens, but geez, do we have to always be at risk? I don’t want to be this person.
This LE hit like a tsunami, even after knowing him for 5 years AND putting him in the mild crush category the whole time! I can still pinpoint the glimmer moment. If I’d known it was happening, I know I could have avoided him. But by the time I realized, I was already deeply hurting.
Hi Faith,
I am not a super-long time LwL poster, but I have been through two LEs. It wasn’t until the middle/end of my second one a year or so ago that I learned what limerence was.
Since then, I have been working on not becoming limerent ever again. I personally think it’s a part of my psyche that will likely always be there.
I have always had stronger-than-normal crushes since childhood, not stemming from any sort of trauma or anything. When I was single, it didn’t really matter because it’s socially acceptable to have crushes on men. But once married, limerence was so difficult to shake off because it was reciprocated by men who either wanted to marry me, or kept giving me compliments, etc. And it takes me about two years to be over someone if it’s been reciprocated somehow.
Anyways, there’s more I could say and would gladly share, but I am not expecting a quick fix or change in this matter; I am accepting it could be with me for life, so I am preparing myself mentally and emotionally to be on the offense from here on out.
My “limerent brain” thinks I have a soulmate out there that is not my spouse, so if I feed into that ideal when I meet a man that I think/feel is “the one” it just tries to start the cycle over again. And it is certainly a cycle. I am using the tools to stop these little fires before they grow into anything like limerence again. 💙
Limerent Nurse, you hit the nail on the head. “thinks I have a soulmate out there that is not my spouse”. Even though I’m happy in marriage, over 20 years, I think we have a really strong relationship and whatever problems we have are not outside the norm for successful long term relationship, I am somehow always open to a knight in shining armour. It makes no logical sense, but there it is.
Would you mind sharing some of your tools to stop the little fires?
“I am somehow always open to a knight in shining armour.”
And perhaps, Faith, men can sense that and play off of it without directly acknowledging it. My own rescue complex is what dragged me into limerence. She was distressed and alone, and being there to help her through a hard time was very cerebrally rewarding.
For most men, being the hero for a woman is the best feeling ever. If you give off the vibes that you are seeking that out, most men are going to be more than eager to fill that role for you.
Sure, Faith!
First, I had to really figure out what my triggers were… they are handsome, available men with certain personality traits that I vibe with, and who also show reciprocation in one way or another. Once you know your triggers, there’s a catch-22: you are both empowered to spot them quicker to avoid them BUT you also run the risk of spotting them quicker to start the cycle again. Be careful!
Then, I had to think about my last LEs and at what point things started getting out of hand for me emotionally. So, now I limit my contact to only as-necessary communication face-to-face at work. No exchanging phone numbers; no additional chatting; definitely no more disclosure discussions alone in the parking lot… etc. I place barriers on myself because I am weak in these areas. When/if I start to feel the pull of limerence to go out of my way to see someone, I force myself to go the other direction. I remind myself of the pain of the prior LEs. But, I am thankful that for me it is a pain that does go away with time.
Hello Faith. As Limerent Nurse mentioned, it may not be easy to figure out why some of us are susceptible to repeat LEs. For some, talking to a therapist has been useful to figure out this stuff. I guess one can be attentive towards one’s tendencies for repeated LEs, and take whatever steps necessary to not slide right into the rabbit hole, for example, to try and not get too friendly with LO, to focus on SO (if you have one), to play a sport, to pray, and so on. The further one goes down the rabbit hole, the tougher it will be to come out.
Thanks, ABCD. I appreciate it. I am in counseling and it helps. For my first LE I found a counselor, and she was able to easily explain how the stresses I was enduring fed into this. Somehow just hearing that explanation was enough to make it go away. This one, not so much. It’s been way harder.
I have no past trauma I can link it to, but I do think other females in my family are like this.
I have great belief in NC and purposeful living, so doing those things diligently (except yesterday and DAMN it was so nice!). I’m definitely doting on SO and that too is working.
I just don’t want to be here again. My SO couldn’t handle it. I feel so terrible at the worry I’ve caused him. Plus, it took all the colour out of my life. So sad that I spent months not seeing all the beauty around me, as all my appreciation was reserved entirely for LO.
You’re welcome, Faith.
“Plus, it took all the colour out of my life. So sad that I spent months not seeing all the beauty around me, as all my appreciation was reserved entirely for LO”.
Man, this is so true, experienced it myself. You really hit the nail on the head by talking about the eventual effect of LE on one’s quality of life.
I think at this time you need to be kind to yourself, as slip ups can happen. As Speedwagon mentioned in another post — periods of NC interrupted with momentary setbacks, till one can go full NC. Resilience is the need of the hour.
Good luck!
Hi ABCD, sorry to interrupt, but I was wondering about your 1/2 marathon goal. How is your training? If you are interested in a training plan, I recommend that you try the Garmin coaches. I used Greg earlier this year to train for a 10k and I got my best 10k time on that race. I’m using Amy right now to train for a half marathon. I like both of them. The biggest drawback for me is that I had to significantly cut back on my weekly mileage to do their programs. They don’t push me nearly as much as I push myself. Because of the volume, I think their programs are good for most runners. I also love that Greg’s program got me a PB even though I cut back on my mileage and I got sick during training. It’s been nice to have extra time on my hands and to have less pain since cutting back on running too. I think you should give it a try.
Your goal for your first half marathon should be to finish it and have fun. I know you will have a pacing goal because it is too tempting to resist, but try to focus on the experience. You’ll never forget your first so make it a good experience.
Hi Lovisa, thanks for your message. Yes, I totally agree with you on the Garmin coaches. I used one for the 10K, and had the exact same experience as you. For running long distances, just finishing the run at an easy enough pace needs to be first goal. The faster times can come later. Currently, I am trying to break the 1 hour barrier for the 10K, I am getting closer.
Unfortunately, its getting very hot here, so I am not sure whether attempting half marathon now would be doable (temps are 40+ C). I am trying running longer distances – 12K, 13K, 15K. Lets see how it goes
Will keep you posted, thanks!
Hello. This is very similar to me. I went about 6 weeks NC, well apart from a few flat messages, and have been in regular contact now for about a month. Nothing too intense just a couple of friendly messages here and there. I remember the glimmer moment, and before that, LO was just a friendly colleague who I didn’t give much thought to. That was a better time. Although I absolutely value what he contributes to my life and his knowledge and friendliness keeps me interested in things I wouldn’t otherwise be. I’m a bit scared/reluctant to go NC again cold turkey, so am trying more of withdrawal/LC approach. Maybe that’s having my cake and eating it too, I don’t know. I don’t want a LE with anyone else.
The other day my SO was talking about his own boundaries and how he didn’t reply to a female colleague who had text him personally. I feel bad that I didn’t follow through with my own boundaries, and have been jealous/awkward when he has mentioned other women. Complete double standards. But he’s the sensible one, I guess. Maybe I’m acting more jealous and insecure because I know how LE can just happen to anyone unsuspecting, married or not. Boundaries are important for any LE new/old/current. I feel I need to adjust boundaries slightly with current but I’m also a bit reluctant as I keep convincing myself friendship is ok (yes I’ve read the blogs saying it can’t work but I’m in denial).
Messaging here instead of messaging LO.
Hi Whoomp,
I think it’s possible to return to friendship even after limerence has struck. It sounds like you are being very vigilant to not let things get out of hand. I am learning how to do low contact with a couple of coworkers whom I find myself attracted to, and as long as I keep to strict boundaries (mostly mental expectations and not feeding into my personal cycle of limerence), I find so far it is working. It’s like I have to keep putting out little fires that want to start 🔥 but the more I do it, the easier it gets to prevent an LE from happening again.
Hi Whoomp, wow it’s comforting to know that in my misery, someone else has been going through it, too. And we’re both crawling out.
I can’t lie, yesterday I thought I cracked the code, but in the 36 hours since that chat with LO (where I realized THANK GOD I didn’t act as much a fool as I thought), the intrusive thoughts are back, and I’m having to swat away the daydreams like flies. I just keep imagining him in my life! Trying to find ways we can keep being friends…. And that’s all because of one nice chat 🙂
So maybe a return to original baseline is possible, but at least for me I think I’ll have to be well clear of the LE before it is.
My first LE was 15 years ago, he was my actual first love and I had a resurgence of missing him (I was married by then). I’m grateful that when I think of that LO, I only remember the fond feelings of our time together, and not the painful shame I felt during LE. So maybe that will happen here too.
Not there yet.
Hi Faith,
I completely understand what you are going thru since your chat. I hope you can shake it off quickly. I go through a cycle where I am pretty strict LC for a stretch and then something happens where I have much more interaction with LO than normal and it completely throws me off kilter for a few days.
Today is a good example. I have been pretty strict LC for a good couple months with LO but today I spent half a day alone time with her because of some work obligations. Our alone time is always filled with good banter, chemistry, and comfortability. We get along really well. For me, she really can really seem like a soul mate. But then I realize the futility of it all and I crash. I feel it happening as I write this. My weekend will be filled with sadness, anger, frustration, and resentment. I will feel all the feels but I just try to stay outside myself. Recognize what’s happening, and let the emotions come and pass. By next week I will probably have new resolve for LC.
On a positive note, I am at the point where I don’t stress over a relapse so much. I’ve been thru enough of them. They also tend to give me new resolve for LC, when LC becomes weary. But I ultimately know that my life might consist of stretches of LC with a relapses every so often and until I can be fully NC, God willing one day, I have to accept this as normal life.
Hang in there!
Oh boy, Speedwagon. You said it. I was so silly, thinking I could come from that interaction unscathed. The last three days have been just awful. I’m saying STOP a zillion times a day and the temptation to day dream is relentless. And then the crash. So real.
Hello Faith,
Does your SO know, and are you able to be honest with him? As someone who has a partner who is experiencing limerence, I am doing my best to understand and be supportive, but also feel like it is a losing battle. I love my wife and my family, but not sure how I can go forward. What do you hope from your partner, and do you see a life together?
Hi Giovanni, he suspects but doesn’t know. I have given this lots of thought and do not want to disclose. I see it as shameful, and not something I want to burden him with. I haven’t done anything inappropriate in terms of communication etc. it’s all in my head, uninvited, and not nurtured (once I realized that fantasy nurtures it, I stopped that too). We’ve had stress on the marriage that we have talked lots about, and I see linerence as a result of that, but he is such a good partner and heard my concerns so I am feeling totally committed to that. I hope that makes sense. I don’t want to hurt him more. And as a non- limerent himself , I really don’t think he could understand that there is ZERO RISK of infidelity. There really isn’t. I’d love to know your thoughts on this perspective.
Hi Faith, thank you for that perspective. It sounds like you and your SO still have a loving marriage worth holding on to.
I think from my perspective, my partner has struggled with limerence on and off over the years as well, usually when there have been significant life changes. As a non-limerent, one of the challenges is that we will spend quality time together, loving time together, and during that period I know she has reached out to her LO. It then feels like all that goodness is washed away or dismissed if that makes sense? Like I am irrelevant or the third person in the room. Less than is how I would sum it up. I appreciate how you mentioned that there is ZERO RISK on your part, and I feel that is the same in my situation, but I guess it is the question of, is she with me in those loving moments or somewhere else, and how do I know without honesty. It is so hard to doubt that love, but as I mentioned, I still love her and hold out hope that we can come through this!
Hi again Faith, one other question I have is, how would you say dealing with limerence has impacted your love for your SO?
Hi Giovanni, thank you for sharing. I hope my replies are showing up in the right place. You sound like a great partner. On behalf of the limerentss your patience is appreciated. And I appreciate knowing that third person feeling as I wouldn’t have understood that. Makes me sad. For me this horrible situation makes me feel even more grateful for my SO because I know we have a strong relationship. That’s also why I feel so awful about it and don’t want to talk to him about it. The guilt is terrible because these are unwelcome feelings.
All these blog posts give me so much clarity and understanding. Thanks.
Hi Speedwagon. A lot of what you said resonated with me, as NC is not possible in my case also.
“But then I realize the futility of it all and I crash. I feel it happening as I write this. My weekend will be filled with sadness, anger, frustration, and resentment. I will feel all the feels but I just try to stay outside myself. Recognize what’s happening, and let the emotions come and pass. By next week I will probably have new resolve for LC”.
You said it, I could not have said this better myself. Have experienced this on multiple occasions, and the crashes were terrible, feeling low for a couple of days. Its like you build your resolve, then it breaks, then you build it again, and the whole thing loops.
I am anticipating significant NC now, so hopefully that will help.
I hope that you start to feel better post those LO interactions.
Dear ABCD and Speedwagon,
I have the same experience although I was in denial about what was needed until fairly recently.
Now I face periodic contact (for work) and I find that what helps is to convince myself that this man is not for me. He is not bad or anything, he is actually very nice, but he is not for me. For so many great reasons. The feelings of anger and frustration are just the paradox of me not getting what I want (like a tantrum) even when I know deep down that he is not what I want. This thought that he is not for me is bringing me peace, at the moment. Its nothing to do with him and (although he gives me massive encouragement, in person) what he does or does not do is of no consequence so I have decided to try and not take any of that personally.
We’ve had a heck of a lot of work contact in the last few weeks and, where he was driving me mad before, I have made peace with it now.
Let’s see if this lasts….
Hello Bewitched. Yes, what you are saying makes perfect sense.
I am trying to approach this from a practical perspective now, that even if we are mutually limerent (big if), getting together is not happening, it is not happening at all.
Perhaps with the passage of time, the practicality of it all hits, as one is too over the moon in the glimmer phase.
Like you, I am also taking this one step at a time, feeling better now, hope the trend continues.
Hi ABCD & Bewitched
“what helps is to convince myself that this man is not for me. He is not bad or anything, he is actually very nice, but he is not for me.”
I have a hard time with this one. Quite honestly, I can envision LO and I making a great life together and getting along quite well. But I also recognize that my SO is absolutely the best person for me and when I start to ruminate about a fantasy life with LO I quickly shift to think of the real life I have built with SO.
“I am trying to approach this from a practical perspective now, that even if we are mutually limerent (big if), getting together is not happening, it is not happening at all.”
This is my approach too and really is the bottom line isn’t it. It’s blunt reality which we Limerents need a strong reminder of consistently.
Hi Speedwagon,
“My weekend will be filled with sadness, anger, frustration and resentment.”
I feel you. Even though I don’t see my LO, still the thought of him, his image, his eyes , his voice “follow “ me everywhere , every day. Those feelings, one carries them inside and are stamped in the mind forever. You’ll learn to live with them eventually, since the mind is not willing to erase itself of it…
Check this out:
“The essence of Love”. Article by Himayun Nazir
Site: LinkedIn .com
Love, exploring the essence of a profound Human Emotion.
Excerpt,
“While science may offer insight into the neurological processes associated with love, its essence transcends scientific explanation. Love is a deeply human experience, a journey that we embark upon with open hearts, embracing both its joys and challenges.”
Challenges??? You bet!!! Where the crashes are so many and painful , and joy is so short lived…
Have a relaxing weekend.
Nisor,
Wifi has been out in my home illogically since yesterday, so I couldn’t reply your last message. Now I cannot find it, where is it?
Having a nice weekend!
The intrusive thoughts decided to return last night. June 3rd will be two years. I was playing Xbox and they descended on me like the plague of locusts. Just out of nowhere. I screamed out “I DON’T WANT TO THINK OF YOU!!!”
Momma came running from the kitchen and sat on the bed with me. I told her June 3rd was coming and that I might be a mess these next couple of days.
I told her about my transferring my attention to her sister’s friend. I assured her it wasn’t limerence again. I shared a memory of her I have when we all went out that night.
I am not sure what she believes. I remember her asking “what is it that attracts you to these women?” And I don’t remember what I answered her with. She never got angry or frustrated with me. She seemed genuinely wanting to understand me. She gives me so much grace.
I don’t want to be like this. I really want to forget her. If I could wipe my brain at this point I would. I was doing so good letting go and moving on. I don’t want this $&@$ing date to haunt me my whole life.
I just want to be her friend too. I don’t want anything more. But why do I do this to myself. I told Momma I need to protect her. That she doesn’t end up with another abusive man. She told me she was seeing someone. It was someone Momma knows from high school. And Momma’s tone about him didn’t sound favorable. She even dated one of Momma’s cousins at one point. I got the feeling Momma had less than a favorable opinion of her sister’s friend. All I see is a damsel in distress and actually was getting upset at Momma’s opinion of her. My mid life is killing me.
L.E.
Your father was right; never marry a virgin.
“Light will guide you home
and ignite your bones
and I will try to fix you”
Fix You — Fearless Soul
https://youtu.be/w3Q1j-Cj82I?si=H6qtpKjNdIitEWFB
Hi Adam,
Are you ruminating or fantastising about LO, because if so, that might explain why you are getting ambushed by unwelcome thoughts and finding it hard to move on.
Although it feels a very long time, two years is not long to re-wire your brain, in my opinion, we have seen people on here stay limerent after several decades. But I suppose anyone who’s limerence is hanging on must be feeding the fantasy and having limerent escape thoughts fairly regularly. Transferring onto someone else suggests that your brain needs something to take up the space that LO previously occupied. I think that you need to lavish affection on other people to help occupy your mind: wife, children, friends, hobby, new pet, etc.? I am trying this and it is helping me a little bit, though I am certainly still susceptible and I see my LO in a few weeks’ time….
….so I get where you are coming from regarding set-backs.
Hello Adam
Oh, I’m really sorry about the intrusive thoughts suddenly deluging you like that. The intensity and the speed can be so overwhelming when it happens. I think the date is the main key here because I remember what happened a year ago, if my memory serves me right. I wonder if perhaps the calendar dates have been building up to trigger you over the past few days.
My Achilles heel has been birthday dates, and even Christmas, so I feel that I can empathise a bit. I do find that the eruptions of unwelcome intrusive thoughts are fewer as time goes on and they do not last as long. Is that true for you too?
I’m feeling confident this afternoon and I reckon your experience will have subsided quite a lot by now and I do hope you’re feeling better. Support from your lovely wife must be helpful.
This is easier said than done, of course, but deep down you must surely realise that not every woman is a damsel in distress who needs rescuing.
Personally, I think the idea of transference is over-rated and it needs to be regarded with caution. Mind you, I just saw a very handsome flower stall seller at the local Farmers’ Market and I could probably have a nice distracting conversation with him, given the chance.
I liked your comment about “wiping your brain”. I don’t think you’re alone with that thought. It’s a blip and I feel sure it will pass very soon if it hasn’t already.
Right, I’m now going to scroll down Bewitched’s list of other possible ways to lavish affection to see if I can pick up any tips…
Take care, old thing.
f
“Mind you, I just saw a very handsome flower stall seller at the local Farmers’ Market and I could probably have a nice distracting conversation with him, given the chance.”
Frederico, its so good to see you even entertain a thought like this.
You are spot-on about anniversaries and Christmas bringing about an increase in intrusive thoughts. Adam was doing so well all along. …He’ll get back there.
Speaking of anniversaries and holidays, Christmas was a nightmare, as I recall, I was on LwL all day (sad and pathetic, but it helped)
Have a beautiful evening x
Frederico, I think you should start buying fresh flowers every week. 😉
Bewitched. Thank you! Yes, you’re so right about dates – crazy really. I’m glad LwL got you through Christmas Day.
Trifles. Brilliant idea and, believe it or not, it didn’t cross my mind. Next week though, next week!
f
Yes. I think you are the kind of gentleman who appreciates fresh flowers. But you may need to know how and where they are grown, etc. Report back here next week. 😉
I‘m not a fan of transference either, since I transferred two times, at the time thinking „at least this is distracting me from last LO“ and it led to full-on LEs each time. I have to say that the LOs got gradually „better“, less dangerous, more decent people. Still , I cannot really recommend it.
Adam, I can also not see why you need to protect this woman. She doesn’t seem in distress yet, and when Momma‘s opinion of her isn’t that favorable, maybe she has her reasons because she knows her better? maybe she‘s wrong, but do you know her that well, and is it worth a fight with Momma, I don’t know…?
Just want to put perspective on it.
Maybe think of something nice to do on June 3rd? Going to the movies with your wife? No romantic film, but action, maybe..
Mila, Adam said he got a lot of practical advice and asked me to read.
I’d like to give a little back context here…. I’ve known my sisters friend since I was 4, she is regarded as my Mom and Dad’s other daughter – she calls my dad Pops- I do love her very much, I also know she’s very skilled in martial arts. I kinda just shook my head when we were talking because the only things that ran through my head was “ok, she could very easily rearrange some internal organs and certainly external if shes threatened”. 40+ years of history with love, heartbreak, loss, fantastic times vs 1 night out pub crawl style (which I cant do because I’m extremely careful with my sobriety) with my sister, brother in law and Sis4. Do I think she’s an angel…..well no more than I am 😉
As to the guy…..it’s high school bad history, bad memories, part of my story Adam didn’t think he could share. Because of that history, he worried about Sis4 (I’ll just call her that for simplicity) and that is when I gave him a look that was supposed to say “yeah, no need to worry, she can do serious damage *if* she ever needed to”.
As to the date he refers to, that is tied into the beginning of losing our Grandma. I was very blunt with him last night and I said very bluntly to take solace in the fact that she -his LO- is alive and well…. Because those dates in my heart and psyche are tied to the undeniable no coming back departure of a woman that has not only shaped my life, but my 2 boys and had a positive impact on Adam.
He started having an intrusive thought last night and i started babbling about a video game. He got through it. And I’m trying to help as much as I can, but one can take being called another woman’s name so many times before the tears and hurt are apparent.
Thank you for everything y’all are doing to help him because it seems I just get my head over the wall to get to the other side before I’m kicked in the face and slide down. And I’m not saying any of it to be cruel or drag him, most here know I deal with Mental Illnesses, including PTSD and therefore unfortunately know all too well what intrusive thoughts can do.
🙂
I feel that I may be intruding, DmmitHardison, so this is very brief. I understand something of your story. The fact that you have shared it with this group humbles me.
I wish you both everything that is good and is healing.
With much love,
f
Hi Dmmit Hardison,
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to explain! I just read two sentences of Adam and answered without really knowing what’s what! but, funnily enough, my instinct was also that your friend doesn’t really need rescuing and can defend herself.
I‘m very sorry for the loss of your grandma and it’s absolutely clear that it would smart to have it tied in with this limerence episode.
I think it’s very unusual and fantastic that you two can talk about the limerent stuff. I just want to say it one time, I do have such a lot of respect for you, you seem to be an extraordinary person.
I hear you Adam. Sometimes I just want life to end if this is what it’s going to look like. A constant fight against darkness. And then I remember that actual, painful LEs have made up a very small fraction of my life. I’m also middle aged and can without doubt say this is my midlife crisis. When things are tough, keep going. This will end. (No worries anyone, I am not suicidal and never have been).
Adam, I hope today has been better! You’ve been such a positive, optimistic, and principled contributor. You deserve goodness. Hang in there
Faith
Thank you. I am feeling better today but not by much. Hoping that today’s sermon will help. I will check in later today.
Frederico
Ask him out!!!!!!!! It doesn’t matter. I had a man ask me out and it’s the greatest compliment I’ve ever had. 🙂
Adam
Hardly! It was just a light-hearted aside to cheer you up. I’m actually quite ancient and decrepit, in case you hadn’t noticed.
Keep well.
Nah Frederico. The gentleman that asked me out for drinks was easily 20-25 years older than me at the time in my early 30s. I told him I was flattered but married. I never brought up my sexual preference as I imagined how much courage it took for him to ask me. Is he homosexual? Is he taken? Is he a homophobic a$$hole? That’s why I took it as a compliment. And for a while teased Momma that even men were after me lol.
Hi Adam. Yeah, the intrusive thoughts are very challenging to deal with aren’t they. I am also somewhat in your boat, about 2 years since LE. Have been feeling better mentally than before, partly due to semi-long NC. LO thoughts still pop in every now and then, less than before, but still non zero. I have come to accept it as part of life now, that thoughts of LO, and longing for her will keep coming, so I just try to deal with it the best I can, which means trying to be kind to myself, telling myself things will improve, and moving on. I also try to distract myself quickly from the thoughts — this also helps. Always end up feeling better eventually. Good luck!
Adam I saw your post. Here is something to think about. I remember you saying your family friend was stunning and did something for you that made you feel mothered. It seems like it’s more than rescuing. Would you have that same instinct for someone not attractive to you? I’m wondering if more going on than you think with LO and family friend than just rescuing. Hope this makes sense and not trying to call you out. I know you don’t want to go down this road again so please be careful. I am reading too much on here again so need to cut back but will check in.
Momma is gonna make me some pancakes and I am gonna dunp a load of a of cottage chesse on them. Yum
Yum. 🙂
That sounds almost weirdly appetizing.. 🤔
MJ,
Sending you good vibes and hope things going well with Lady Friend.
After the heartbreak and pain of Limerence with unattainable goddess (I was there too), best wishes for things going forward with person you’re currently seeing.
I’ve had two weeks NC with alcohol 😂, though drinking isn’t really a problem for me. Might have a couple this Friday night.
I wonder if the glimmer dulls a bit as we get older? Might not be such a bad thing if it did.
I don’t think I’ll ever be as bowled over as I was with LO1. I would never want to go through something like that again!
I don’t think it dulls at all. 😛
Grego my Friend,
Great to hear from you again and I hope you are well. Thank you for the good wishes. Not sure about the glimmer thing. Lady Friend has not attained that status yet and I’m ok with it.. You are correct about not wanting to ever do that again for anybody. I feel like that is reserved for LO only. It’s a sad place but a special one.
Forever in my heart..
MJ❤LO
Hi Adam,
these lines were running through my mind this morning…
“Momma always told me not to look into the eyes of the sun
But momma, that’s where the fun is”
One of my favorite songs from the 70’s , Manfred Mann’s earth band.
(forgot how to send link to post…I could google it I guess 🙃
Blinded by the Light, Manfred Mann.
Bingo!!😊
@Serial Limerent,
Yes, I think you’re probably right.
‘The glimmer’ is related to Eros, which is related to the life force.
It’s all a mystery to me!
@Grego.
Hey Grego.
You say you’re interested in philosophy. So here’s some “food for thought” for you and other LwLers.
I’ve boiled down my understanding of limerence to a single sentence: “Limerence is irrational longing for a specific person.”
What limerence isn’t:
1. Limerence isn’t a lonely person wanting to be in a relationship.
2. Limerence isn’t a single person wanting to be married.
3. Limerence isn’t wanting to have kids someday
4. Limerence isn’t a married person feeling frustrated with marriage and wanting out
5. Limerence isn’t a person, single or married, taking a keen interest in sexuality
6. Limerence isn’t someone wanting to explore non-monogamy or other unconventional lifestyles
7. Limerence isn’t idealism or romanticism or a love of poetry. All those things can be enjoyed fully without an irrational focus on one person
The reason limerence leads to pair-bonding when the feelings are mutual I think is probably because limerence causes the two parties to focus on each other exclusively for a period of time, at the expense of other social relationships. Thus, a very strong emotional bond is much more likely to develop.
Pair-bonding may not be the reason limerence exists, however. Pair-bonding may simply be a happy by-product of limerence for the human species, which is why the genes for limerence don’t die out but remain in circulation.
I personally wouldn’t want to date someone who was limerent for me, because I wouldn’t like to be the focus of that person’s very close attention. Everything the limerent admirer does might be nice – sex, gifts, compliments, etc, etc. But, ultimately, at the end of the day, I’d find the person’s obsessive focus on me – and, most importantly, on what I might be feeling for them at all times – off-putting.
G’day Sammy,
I’m not Grego or Aussie but can I comment that is a great deduction and your succinct definition is spot on.
I wouldn’t want anyone to be limerent for me either, with the one exception of my LO 😉
@Imho.
“I’m not Grego or Aussie but can I comment that is a great deduction and your succinct definition is spot on.”
Thank you. I should also add that two people in mutual limerence with each other temporarily focus on each other at the expense of all other relationships because this intense focus is very rewarding. One’s brain is providing one with a huge reward (chemical buzz?) for behaviour likely to foster pair-bonding. 🙂
“I wouldn’t want anyone to be limerent for me either, with the one exception of my LO 😉”
That’s just it, isn’t it? Obsession is generally experienced as unpleasant by the person on the receiving end of the obsession – unless the desire to be desired is shared. Evidence of equally “emotional investment” from LO in the “dance” produces bliss rather than a vague feeling of unease. 😉
@Imho.
*equally strong
Super post, Sammy! Your analysis is very useful indeed as one comes to terms with LE. Specifically, your last para about the obsessiveness of LO tells us how scary our behavior towards LO can get, though it may seem harmless to us, in our limerent minds.
@ABCD.
Thank you for your kind words.
I don’t think we should sensationalise limerence by saying it’s scary, etc. I think limerence only becomes scary to the LO in extreme cases. Most cases of limerence just seem to be people suffering more or less in silence while listening to their favourite sad music. 🙂
I strongly believe I was on the receiving end of limerence from a girl in my final year of high school. We were both single and free to act. I was never scared of her. But her attraction to me very occasionally felt a tiny bit annoying. Just a teensy bit irritating, you know?
I know this sounds very cruel, but to me she was unfortunately like a fly I just wanted to wave away. Sometimes, she would gaze at me with these huge eyes that expressed both adoration and anxiety at the same time. I think my instinctual response was: “I have no idea what this person wants from me!” 🙄
The girl was also more interested in establishing where she stood with me emotionally (fair enough in hindsight) than in ever hanging out with me as a friend, and getting to know me as a person on an equal footing. Her barely-disguised infatuation with me meant that we could never get to know each other as peers.
It felt like her limerence for me was always this unnamed cloud in the background, hanging over all our interactions. The girl couldn’t just enjoy being in the moment with me and all our other friends. It’s like she had this question she always wanted to ask, but she was afraid to ask that question directly, so she always tiptoed around the topic, and I always (quite naturally!) gave her off-topic responses.
I think the question she really wanted to ask was: “Do you like me as much as I like you?”
The only thing that would have made this girl happy was if I wanted to start a relationship with her as badly as she wanted to start a relationship with me. And I didn’t really feel that way about her. However, I also didn’t know how to tell her I didn’t reciprocate the feelings – or any feelings. I just liked the girl as a platonic friend. When I spent time with this girl, I wanted to relax with ALL my friends. I saw the girl as one member of a much larger friend group.
@Sammy,
To your list, I’m saying Yes to #1, 5, 6, 7, although I was unaware of #5 for the most of my LE (first 5 years).
In terms of #7, limerence with the Phantom/muse (not realistic LO, but the desire for a idealized LO) is almost the ONLY inspiration and power for idealism, romanticism, poetry, and other forms of creativities. Without it, everything becomes dull without spark, which I had fully experienced it prior to this longest LE.
The challenge to me is to keep the Phantom alive, when LO is completely out of sight…. The Phantom will die naturally after a permanent physical NC or after another LO pushes into the mind.
A personal comment here: you do not understand well full-colored, grown women….
Sonnet from Alef to Bet (2)
Yerra Sugarman
Lust leaks from the inner rings of our bodies:
tree-trunks scarred with age. We say we’re tired,
but our lust surges above oceans, loosens clouds
and frees the sky. It unchains hurricanes
and brings saw-toothed parsnips into being.
Our love breeds stinging nettles that flank the woods.
No one guesses it hums within our skin.
When I was young, did I river next to fields,
feeling this much rapture? Did I break open
with more happiness, hiking along coastal meadows
or striding on city streets? Sometimes, I want to tell you,
I’m afraid of joy. Sometimes, I believe I’m worthy
only of grief. Even when dogwoods blossom,
I—a fool—cling to the faith I have only in my grief
In the Forest
Oscar Wilde
Out of the mid-wood’s twilight
Into the meadow’s dawn,
Ivory limbed and brown-eyed,
Flashes my Faun!
He skips through the copses singing,
And his shadow dances along,
And I know not which I should follow,
Shadow or song!
O Hunter, snare me his shadow!
O Nightingale, catch me his strain!
Else moonstruck with music and madness
I track him in vain!
Sammy,
“”I’ve boiled down my understanding of limerence to a single sentence: “Limerence is irrational longing for a specific person.””
I agree with this.
“What limerence isn’t:
1. Limerence isn’t a lonely person wanting to be in a relationship.
2. Limerence isn’t a single person wanting to be married.
3. Limerence isn’t wanting to have kids someday
4. Limerence isn’t a married person feeling frustrated with marriage and wanting out
5. Limerence isn’t a person, single or married, taking a keen interest in sexuality
6. Limerence isn’t someone wanting to explore non-monogamy or other unconventional lifestyles
7. Limerence isn’t idealism or romanticism or a love of poetry. All those things can be enjoyed fully without an irrational focus on one person”
I don’t agree with this. It depends on the limerent. I wanted a relationship with my LO. At the height of my limerence, I think I would have accepted a side relationship/PA. I wasn’t interested in breaking up his marriage. (Yes, I can hear myself. :)).
And being around him definitely revved up my sex drive. And I did experience idealism and romanticism. So I’d say yes to 1, 5 6 and 7. In terms of 6, it wasn’t so much that I wanted to explore non-monogamy as I was willing to accept he was married given how strong my feelings were. I didn’t want him to be married but that’s what I had to work with. Or so I told myself.
Excellent list from Sammy. But once again I agree with Marcia. 😆 I think all those on the list can be powerful catalysts for limerence. (Yet in and of themselves they are not limerence.) But I don’t think limerence starts without the (however small) encouragement or reciprocation and the ambiguity that follows. Also I think many of us limerents lean into that initial “high” instead of stopping the limerence forming in time.
Trifles,
“But I don’t think limerence starts without the (however small) encouragement or reciprocation and the ambiguity that follows.”
I agree. I’ve never become limerent for someone who didn’t give me some encouragement/attention/flirting, etc. Although there have been posters on here who have become limerent for someone who doesn’t.
” Also I think many of us limerents lean into that initial “high” instead of stopping the limerence forming in time.”
I agree with this, too. I rue the day I didn’t see everything for exactly what it was … flirtatious married guy … move along.
It’s strange that flirtation from other married guys did not affect me. I easily could have walked away. But for some reason, LO’s attention walloped me.
“I think many of us limerents lean into that initial “high” instead of stopping the limerence forming in time.“
If limerents want to keep their desire alive, despite the unrequited dynamic, they can carry that “initial high” as long as the Phantom (not realistic LO) created in their own mind is fed by their continuous imaginations and creative activities, materialized or not.
While such the activities are mostly detrimental to limerents with SO, they could spice life of unattached limerents, while they continue open-mindedly exploring and expanding their mental, emotional, and realistic domain. Their unrequited limerence, positively managed, could be a resource of their future pursuits, as long as the Phantom lives…
First off thank you all for your responses. I did read them all and I was trying to take a break from posting to try and get some perspective.
Momma and I prayed together last night. Within our own respective beliefs. I prayed to God for my in laws, lady friend, LO and her daughter, my wife, our sons …. etc
Then Momma prayed to the Goddess for me. Asking help for me through this time that I am going through now. It was a wonderful experience to share together. Despite sleep evading me for most the night, it was a very uplifting experience. I felt something in Momma’s prayer for me. Maybe it was a blessing by her beliefs. I felt better. This whole ordeal has been nothing but a ball and chain dragging me under, and Momma’s prayer on my behalf felt like it broke that chain. While tired as hell today, I still feel better.
I‘m so glad you feel better Adam!
Have a great day and then hopefully a night full of sleep!
All the best to you, Adam.
Be thankful for the clothes that fit a little too snug, because it means you have enough to eat.
Be thankful for the mess you clean up after a party, because it means you have been surrounded by friends.
Be thankful for the taxes you pay, because it means that you are employed.
Be thankful that your lawn needs mowing, because it means you have a home.
Be thankful for your heating bill, because it means you are warm.
Be thankful for the laundry, because it means you have clothes to wear.
Be thankful for the Lady that sings off key behind you in church, because it means you can hear.
Be thankful for the alarm that goes off in the early morning hours, because it means you are alive.
I love this!! Thanks for posting this MJ!
Ruminations of a limerent. I was doing great and then new social media posts appeared. And then this angst bubbles up that this time might mean goodbye for real. Am I ready for this? I can’t believe it’s been five months. He said he was going to call but he hasn’t. How about one more text just to see how they’re doing. No I deleted the number and say thank you to my more rational self that did that. There’s always social media. You could message them there. Yes there is but this isn’t who you want to be. You didn’t know then when this started what you were getting into but you know now. STOP 🛑 Yes life is painful and this week you say goodbye to the school forever. He was supposed to be there but he left. I’m hoping he doesn’t show up at the party. But if he doesn’t it’ll be strange too. All these emotions and pain. I can’t believe it could be over. All the thoughts and conversations. But yes all the thoughts. My mind was held hostage by intrusive and unwelcome thoughts. That was awful. I don’t want to start it again. But it hurts and I want closure. There will never be enough closure. Face it. It never was and never will be. It was never about them. It was about me. My pain. Looking for what was missing. LO said some awful things. Treated me poorly at times. Used me to do work that wasn’t mine to do. I’ve tasted freedom and I want it. I want to move forward more than I want to return it. I’ll get through this. Don’t reach out. Take a deep breath. You’re worth more than this and so is your family. LO is an illusion. Someone your brain put together. None of it’s real. You’ll be ok. Face the pain. Say goodbye and don’t look back. The desire to reach out is decreasing. Thank you God. I don’t want any more regrets. Help me to stay strong and keep moving towards recovery.
Hello Beth 2
I’m very conscious of what you said about staying away but your piece is so powerful and apposite. I feel very much with you because of what we discussed once before and because of the five months since contact.
“All these emotions and pain” “I don’t want to start it again. But it hurts and I want closure.” “There will never be enough closure” “I’ll get through this” “Don’t reach out. Take a deep breath.”
“You’ll be ok” You certainly will, Beth, you certainly will.
Your list, including the Stop sign, has been quoted several times over the past few days.
f x
Thank you Frederico I was doing well and I think saying goodbye to the school is very emotional. It’s making it final and entering new phase. Also social media is awful and I need to stay away. I am so grateful for this place and that there is support. Five months for both of us. We can do this. Thanks again
Hi Beth, I’m sorry you are struggling and thanks for sharing your journalling thoughts here. As Frederico said please know your 20 rules had quite an impact with LwL and much quoted. I saved them on my notes !
All I would say is limerence is so fuelled by uncertainty – fact from Dr L.
You and I have had this uncertainty discussion some time ago I remember well.
” I’m hoping he doesn’t show up at the party. But if he doesn’t it’ll be strange too”.
This occasion is piling a whole lot of uncertainty on to you, after so long which is such a trigger.
So be kind to yourself I say. Of course you are going to be triggered, will he be there or not.
You will wobble until this time passes and you get the certainty again. You are still doing great Beth ! Deep breaths, one day and then the next.
Great advice, IMHO. Uncertainty is a killer. Until you decide to put a stop to all of that and take control of the situation. Limerence is being out of control and it feels terrible to be in that spot. But you sound as though you are about to get control back, Beth. You are doing everything right. I have a list that I look at, to keep me on the track back to control. Your post, Beth, is like that list….
Thanks Bewitched! Yes limerence is being out of control. Thats also something good to remember.
Imho a light went on for me. Uncertainty! It’s fueling this. The last call when he called to say he was leaving the job. Said I suppose I will call you once in a while to see how you are. Normally he’s called at 3 months since I stopped initiating contact. Always had a relapse after. But now 5 months and I suppose is not for sure and the longer it goes the more the uncertainty increases. And then maybe I will show up at the end of the year party. I truly was not aware of that but you pointing out helps me. The closer the party the worse the uncertainty. It was also bad at 3 months because that was the pattern. The only certain thing is nothing is certain. I’m glad the 20 rules had an impact. I’ve got to keep to them. Thanks so much for the encouragement!
Beth2,
„ I’ve tasted freedom and I want it.“
Take this sentence and run with it! It’s one of the most important. In all my three LEs I had these moments of having a glimpse of freedom- a sudden view how relieved, relaxed and happy I could be, finally free to do what I really care for, have new experiences, being finally rid of this weight of limerence.
Imagine that! And go with it! You can get there, you will.
Thank you Mila. Yes I want to be free. Saying goodbye to the school is getting rid another chain. How are you doing?
Hello Beth2. Sorry to hear that you were feeling low, hope that you are feeling much better now. I agree with you – social gatherings where LO is present are tough to navigate, with the anxiety building up before the event, and some days of feeling low afterwards. The really good thing is that you recognise the negative effects this LE is having on you, and that you are taking proactive steps to detach. I think with the passage of time, you will feel better and better. Good luck!
Thank you so much ABCD. I’m hoping he won’t be there. And if he is, it’s not a super long party and will go by fast. Hope you are doing well.
I have an even more difficult situation. My LO is the husband of one of my best friends. We’ve all know each other almost 20 years. My limerence for her husband started about 18 months ago. I cannot go no contact. We see each other regularly at a group game night, and do other activities together. They have two children who consider me an aunt, I am practically part of their family. But the Limerence has done a real number on me. I have made a lot of progress using resources like these (thank you Dr L!) and I see a therapist. But I keep cycling through feelings of love and then heartbreak. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to lose this friendship but I don’t want to keep feeling the pain and loss. I have considered disclosing to my LO as a “nuclear option” – sometimes I think it would be preferable to blow up the friendship rather than keep suffering. I am single, and would love to find a partner who reciprocates, but I don’t feel like I’m in a good place mentally or emotionally yet. I have limited contact with LO, he is not on social media so that’s not a problem,
I have managed the fantasies and rumination- mostly. Lately all of the rumination has been how to get free – having conversations with him in my mind where I disclose and tell him I need some space. I do NOT expect or hope for any reciprocation- that is not my motivation for disclosing. He loves his wife and is loyal to her. He enjoys the attention he gets from me but would never cheat on his wife or leave her, nor would I want to do anything to hurt her as she is my friend. I feel so stuck in a lose-lose situation.
Wow Dani, I vote that you don’t disclose. This is your problem. Your friend and her husband didn’t ask for this. They are just nice people. You are going to have to figure this out for yourself.
We can help you.
Hi Dani,
You can exit the friendship rather than blow it up… if you disclose, it could be the same, but worse. Maybe exit for a time and then see if you can re-enter when you are doing better? Just a thought. I wish you the best whatever you decide 💙
Hello Dani. Sorry you are going through this. It is a tough situation as you cannot probably go full NC.
I agree with others that you need to try to navigate this on your own. Maybe it would be good to dial down on the number of interactions you have where LO is present — start with that and then re evaluate your situation. All the best!
Hi Dani,
I understand your torment. My LO is also someone I cannot escape and go NC on. It’s a very tough situation to be in. Plus, you have a lifelong friendship to go consider also. Sorry for how rough this is on you.
Thought…what if you disclosed to your friend? Do you think she could understand, and do you think she could work with you to shield you from her husband?
Thanks to all of you for your replies and support. I think you’re right, if I disclosed it could make things so much worse, and destroy our friendship. I will pull back on my interactions with them – it just so happens that due to travel and other obligations, we won’t have much opportunity to see each other for a couple of months. I can go NC during that period and use that time to work on myself. This friendship is very valuable to me and is good motivation to put in the effort to overcome this limerent episode.
I’m very grateful for this community, discovering that there’s a name for what I’ve been going through, and strategies to overcome it, has been immeasurably helpful. Thank you all.
Dani,
I disclosed to LO #4. BUT, I did it under ideal conditions.
– We were 2500 miles apart.
– We had no professional or social nexus that could be impacted by my disclosure.
You don’t have either of those.
Risk is a function of Threat x Vulnerability x Consequence. If any of those are zero, there is no risk.
You have no control over your LO, i.e., the Threat. Disclosure is predicated on your LO behaving themselves which they often don’t. They go off script. They may not mean to but they do. Disclosure is akin to kicking a snowball off a hill.
You may or may not be aware of all your Vulnerabilities and how things play into them. But, those are things you can eventually understand and control.
WRT Consequences, you either avoid them or have an idea of how to mitigate them if you trip them. Between the two, avoiding them is better. WRT LO #4, I worked hard to avoid consequences but I had a plan in place if things went bad. LO #4 would go under the bus. She was 2500 miles away and while we had an attachment, we didn’t have a real relationship. LO #4 was expendable. I wouldn’t deny the LE/EA but I’d spin it to my advantage to minimize its significance. Crappy but true.
One of the first things the EAP counselor asked when I told her about LO #4 was, “Are you willing to sacrifice your marriage and family for this woman?” I told her “No.”
The EAP counselor replied, “Then, the answer was simple, get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and things will not end well with you.”
However, limerence being what it is, it was easier said than done. It took almost a year and the path wasn’t always straightforward.
@Limerent Emeritus
Based on your theory, I’m in a safe zone to disclose now… 😉
Or shall I take my secret all the way to my graveyard❓
Dani,
Disclose to who?
The only legimate person to disclose to is your SO.
Disclosure is always self-serving. We don’t disclose for their benefit, we disclose for our benefit.
Given that there’s always an unintended consequence, have you thought those through? Unintended doesn’t always mean unforeseen (e.g., pregnancy via unprotected sex).
As DrL notes, once you disclose, other people are brought into the game by your action. They may or not want to be part of this but they may have no choice. Collateral damage is a consequence usually played out on the innocent.
What exactly do you hope to gain by disclosing? An answer will close the question. “I don’t know but I really want to isn’t an answer.”
As an adult with agency, it’s your life. I recommend not disclosing to anyone not you SO and you need to think that through as well.
Limerent Emeritus, that was Snow asking the question of disclosing , not Dani.
Nisor,
Ooops!
It was a busy day and I wasn’t paying as close attention as I should have been.
My apologies to Dani and Snow.
WRT Snow’s question, it’s like a lot of things. Maybe, maybe not.
Snow,
If you want to read some old history, check this out. https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-1341
It’s hard to believe that comment is over 6 years old.
Now, knowing that it’s been 6 years, I don’t regret disclosing to LO #4 but I escaped pretty cleanly. Being so far post-limerent as I am, I don’t think I’d disclose knowing what I know now.
But, after all this time, it doesn’t matter. LO #4 is gone, I have no idea what she’s up to I doubt she’s coming back, and no news is good news.
And, when I ask, “What was I thinking?” Pretty much all I come up with now is that I’ve figured it out and “It seemed really important at the time.” There were a whole lot of layers on that onion but none of them really had to do with LO #4. “Object” is the right word.
She was the right woman in the right place at the right time and I took things and ran with them.
@Limerent Emeritus,
After reading your post to Dani, I just sort of questioned your theory and found I am qualified to follow your footstep 🤔:
1. LO will be gone with a geographical distance 😢
2. No more work association with LO at all. (No more culture consultant 😞)
3. I’m single without SO; no one is going to be affected on my side. Never met LO’s SO and will never run into her by chance.
Why possibly disclose?
1. Just curious to see what would happen after disclosure at the time of a forced closure (scarce online interaction means little to me) —
2. Be authentic to myself — a part of my personal history/myth. Bad or good I shall not trash anything away… I chan