I’ve written many times about the impact on a marriage of developing limerence for someone new. It’s an existential threat under the worst conditions, and a serious hardship even in the best-managed cases.
An important aspect of the damage is that there is a big asymmetry between the spouses – the limerent experiences a slow build of escalating affection for their limerent object (LO), during which they are experiencing emotional highs, conflicted motivations, cognitive dissonance and – usually – moral discord. Their state of mind is altered by the neurochemical storm of limerence, and their behaviour can be irrational and erratic.
For their spouse, none of this is directly visible. They may have noticed some changes in their limerent partner’s personality and conduct, but they aren’t privy to their internal world or how long they’ve been wrestling with emotional disarray. It’s not until the limerence bomb explodes in some way (usually by disclosure or discovery) that they realise they are in the middle of a crisis. They’ve uncovered a threat that jeopardises their security, and throws their past, present and future into disarray. Psychologically, the foundations have been pulled out from under their life – and the disorientation can be even worse if the limerent has been gaslighting them about the situation in order to protect their secret.
A natural response to a crisis is to go into emergency mode, and try to make sense of the situation while searching for ways to regain some control. A common impulse in the immediate aftermath is to focus on doing whatever they can to solve the problem, and that often takes the form of asking: my spouse is in crisis, how can I help?
The panicked spouse is still working in the mental framework of protecting the bond and protecting their family. It would be another psychic blow to reframe the situation and consider their spouse a foe rather than ally (although, at some emotional level, the betrayal is likely to be felt).
This is often the point at which people contact me seeking advice, typically in the form of asking “how do I save my marriage?”. These are some of the hardest messages I receive, because the honest answer is: I don’t know if you can. I’m not just being morbidly pessimistic – every marriage and every individual situation is unique, and the impact of limerence is so variable on different people, that a simple answer just isn’t possible.
More positively, I do think that LwL can help betrayed spouses make sense of what is going on. Some of the biggest insights come from learning that limerence is an altered state of mind that is akin to a behavioural addiction, and that it often involves devaluation, rewriting history, and rationalisation. None of this justifies the betrayal, or the self-centred behaviour of besotted limerents, but it does help explain why they are doing what they are doing.
Knowledge is helpful, but it has limits when it comes to healing emotional pain. The panicked sense of loss will still be pushing you to do something, regardless of how well you understand the causes of the problem. The impulse is to help, to save, and to sideline your own needs until the emergency is dealt with. I think this impulse is well illustrated by a recent comment from Giovanni:
I have done a deep dive to learn how to work through this with my wife, the best that I can. I want to be able to show empathy, compassion, and support, while I am currently dying a little each day.
In the midst of disaster, the first instinct is personal sacrifice.
Personal sacrifice is noble. The impulse to love your spouse regardless of their flaws is good. For better or worse means something important – but there are also, obviously, limits. Perhaps the most difficult question raised by this scenario is: is the effort worth it?
You cannot sacrifice your way through abuse, adultery, neglect, bullying, coercive control, denigration – no one should have to live in such misery. Self-sacrifice to the point of self-negation is not noble or good. You just prolong the pain through a slow defeat.
The extremes are easy to spot (at least for outsiders), but what about the big grey area of imperfections and normal human frailty in between? When should you fight for your marriage, and when should you fight for your sanity? How long can you delay your own emotional breakdown to preserve domestic stability? How can you make good decisions about the marriage when one of you is limerence-addled and the other is panicked?
Again, there is no universal answer, but to stick to practicalities, there are some objective measures that can be used to assess the likelihood that the marriage can recover from the impact of limerence. Some causes for optimism or pessimism about the prospects for renewal. These can act as benchmarks for spouses trying to find sources of hope, or guidance for how much longer they should keep trying against the odds.
Causes for optimism
There are some behaviours from the limerent spouse that give cause for hope of recovery:
- They answer your questions honestly
- They express contrition for the pain they have caused
- They seem genuinely conflicted – wrestling with contradictory emotions (rather than just feeling guilty about being caught)
- They listen when you express your feelings
- They seem confused about their own feelings
- They have not confessed their feelings to their limerent object
- They state that they want to save the marriage
- They regret times when they give in to their limerent urges
- They agree to reasonable restrictions – such as, limiting contact with LO, going to couples counselling, prioritising family time
Causes for pessimism
Conversely, there are also some red flags that indicate you should take steps to protect yourself:
- They minimise your pain
- They belittle or insult you
- They refuse to answer questions
- They rewrite history casting you in a negative light
- They openly compare you to their limerent object
- They defend their limerent object against your criticisms
- They refuse to reduce contact with their LO
- They refuse to apologise for their behaviour
- You suspect they have shared intimate secrets with their limerent object
- You repeatedly catch them in lies
- When you think about the future you feel more fear than sadness
- They have had an affair
No-one can unilaterally save a marriage. By its nature it is a partnership, and requires both people to be on board for it to succeed, but these markers of hope and doubt can help guide you at times when it is hard to think straight.
If there are more causes for optimism than pessimism then it is worth the attempt to persevere in your efforts to salvage the marriage – you are not wasting your energy on a fool’s errand. It may not succeed, but at least you will have the comfort of knowing that you gave it your best shot.
If there are more causes for pessimism than optimism, then it is probably time to focus on yourself. Your spouse is still deep in the limerence mindset and fighting for them is likely to just bring pain and conflict. It’s probably wiser to spend your time and energy on preparing for independence and building your own purposeful future.
Hopefully these markers provide some objective grounds for better decision making, but I’ll end with inviting anyone in the community who has ideas for any additional causes for optimism or pessimism to add them to the comments.
Let’s build up a master list for the adrift.
Dr. L, you summed it up splendidly; that is, the points and causes for optimism and pessimism when trying to salvage a marriage or not, when one of the partners is in limerence.
I think this is a major issue and these guidelines should be followed by all involved. As a matter of fact, these guidelines should be up front in your blog as well as your book for everyone to see first thing when they open the page or blog!
We’re for ever grateful for everything you do for everyone .
Best wishes and have a great weekend.
I’d add in the optimism list:
— They are willing to determine what caused the LE to prevent another LE in the future (what triggered them, what kind of LOs to avoid, etc.).
Very good choice of topic, one that sorely needs discussing. I back Nisor that the article should be pinned to the front of the website somehow.
In my case, I feel I would score all the optimism points, but my SO would likely tick off all the pessimism points due to his suspicion and mistrust towards me.
This may not entirely belong to the current thread, but I would think blatant non-disclosure to a SO about a LO is a big red flag.
I believe one is sadly mistaken if they believe they can keep having their cake and getting to eat it too.
Only speaking from experience here.
Interesting take. What if there’s no real relationship with LO, it’s mainly in the limerent’s head? Is it still a red flag to keep it a secret?
MJ, really ?!
having an affair/one night stand when married and finding oneself in an unexpected limerence and not physically acting on it are two very different things.
So, to add to Maria’s point, when in limerence (and not acting on it, because it’s all in our head) then disclosing to SO can be seen as selfish unburdening, that may catastrophically hurt SO unnecessarily if they (understandably) don’t grasp limerence.
My perspective is that the limerent needs to try to figure it out and work through it themselves and with help before there is a point they have to disclose to SO.
Of course every marital relationship and thresholds are different.
IMHO:
I second your points of views here.
Honesty in every marital “conflicts” is overrated, without considering others’ psychology and the ability to face/take some hurtful truths.
If it is strictly a fantasy inside the limerent’s head and the SO has no suspicions, it’s probably best to not disclose to SO because the SO will more than likely be “catastrophically hurt” as you put it.
However, if the SO inquires, the limerent should tell. I knew that my husband was preoccupied and I figured out what the preoccupation was. When I asked him, I was looking for confirmation. He was honest with me and we have been able to heal our marriage for the most part.
What may be unusual in our case is that I’m the one who recognized his state as limerence. It was a concept I was familiar with even though I’ve never been limerent for anyone except for my husband. He knew nothing about it, but once he read about it, he agreed that’s what he was experiencing.
True, the act itself of having a one night stand and undisclosed limerence are 2 very different things but same that’s it’s admiration for another person besides SO. Of course it could be catastrophic if a SO has no clue what limerence is, but continuing in something fraudulent is so very unfair. As a Limerent who fell into this LE to the extreme, I’ll be outspoken about it.
My point being,,
I lost a good Wife and Family to thinking about people I had no business thinking of, in that way. Perhaps it did start out innocent and only in my head, and who the hell can even say I was limerent then? I don’t think I was but I’m about as single as single can be now and pretty damn bitter about it..
MJ,
You’re saying that once one has a SO, s/he can’t have genuine admiration (not obsessive, pair-bonding kind) for anyone else? How narrow could that mind/heart be! And how boring could that life with SO be?!
Snow,
Admiration is one thing but as Limerents, I’m sure you know, some of us don’t just keep things black or white in between those “just admiration” lines.
MJ:
very true!
But then I would not use word “admiration” in those cases… perhaps “fancy”?
Snow,
Yes “Fancy” is probably a better word for that.
If there is no real relationship with a LO and its all in the head, then still how fair is that of the Limerent to continue deceiving their SO and themselves? To the degree of what the limerence has taken on? It can have so many twists and turns. It’s that kind of thinking that get the wheels of lust turning, which can have consequences.
MJ,
I think this depends on more than one thing.
DrL has written before that thoughts alone are not a crime. The attached limerent rarely asks for the thoughts to happen. If the thoughts never extend to action then this is a grey area. I do sort of get what you’re saying in that if the SO doesn’t have all the facts, is it fair on them? But if the limerent comes up with a plan to manage their way out of the LE and wants SO relations to stay intact, *and* acts accordingly, *and* believes the best outcomes will come from not telling their SO … well there is an apparent case for keeping quiet.
I guess it depends on the person’s morals and on their relationship with their SO, and how their SO would react. Sometimes I think there is a case for not blowing things up if the limerent can manage it responsibly. But different in every case and I am not claiming to be perfect about this.
I have moments where I think I should tell my SO before I am ‘discovered’, but doing that would almost certainly blow things up because of my SO’s likely reaction. On balance I’d rather not do that if I can get over LO in other ways. Won’t be the same for everyone though.
As long as thoughts and emotions stay in one’s own mind, without actualizing out those thoughts and emotions in reality, it’s not deceiving SO! Of course, one can choose and would be highly appreciated to share those unwanted emotions or thoughts with a loving, understanding SO, but it’s not mandatory. If choose not to, one should not be considered “deceiving” SO, it’s her or his right.
Does any SO own a right to know our free thoughts and emotions at any given moment? Is it even possible considering an average person has about 70,000 passing thoughts per day?? We’re born of free thinking, feelings, and pursuing happiness; once in relationship, we Have To (a choice is fine) report to SO everything in our head, or every actions (professional or personal)? If so, then a relationship/marriage is a mental prison decorated with a controlling “love”!
If one contemplates over murdering an “enemy” but never acts on it, should s/he be put in a courtroom/prison? Once upon a time out of a rage, I fantasized to murder LO#5 for a short period of time, now we’re are friends.
LaR,
Points well taken.. There is no one size fits all solution here. I just see it as unhealthy and especially if someone is
in the deep pit of limerence like I was and married. Old MJ definitely would have been in denial and found ways to justify.
Thank you bringing some clarity.
Good luck to you in your efforts to reduce LE
MJ,
I agree with you that the SO should know. Unless there’s some kind of pre-existing agreement/understanding with an SO. Maybe they have previously stated they only want to know if you’ve fallen in love if you’re acting on it. (Because that’s what limerence feels like in the beginning. I don’t think limerence is love, but it seems like it is if the limerent doesn’t know that much about limerence.)
I’d think that telling the SO may even diminish some of the LO’s otherworldy, fantastical allure. In all seriousness, it’s a bit like marijuana becoming legal.
Hi MJ:
“I just see it as unhealthy and especially if someone is in the deep pit of limerence like I was and married. Old MJ definitely would have been in denial and found ways to justify.”
I really value the perspective you have given here, even though it is opposite to the one I said in my last reply. The stories we tell ourselves to justify LE are quite massive. So your post acted as a good sense check on me – how much of what I said above is ‘my justification story’? (rhetorical question – not looking for answers to it here)
I still back my “every case is individual” position – but your point and past experience you shared is an excellent ‘thinker’, for me and in my view for this thread
“I’d think that telling the SO may even diminish some of the LO’s otherworldy, fantastical allure. In all seriousness, it’s a bit like marijuana becoming legal.”
@Marcia,
You would think that would happen. Probably depend on the effect that disclosure has on the SO.
In my case, (and if LE happened back then) my Ex probably would have ended up just feeling hurt again and unworthy. Which temporarily would have made me feel bad. Bringing down some of that allure. I’d go about my business, live life and feel like she got over it or swept the matter under under the rug because we would get along again. What a fool I was to think we were good.
That alone wouldn’t have been enough to stop my shenanigans. I was still trying to get with Women I shouldn’t have. Because I was selfish. I didn’t care enough because true love was difficult for me. I was just a pig and she reached her breaking point. (Something my own Mother told me every Woman has.)
Now I pay for it every day.
“I really value the perspective you have given here, even though it is opposite to the one I said in my last reply”
LaR,
Thank you Friend,
That was why, in my original post, I stated this may not even belong in the thread.
For myself, it has always been about intrusive thoughts that eventually lead to “what if” ideas that pop into my head.
If one doesn’t derail those thoughts in the beginning and re-direct, then they can just snowball and become the big, ugly elephant in the room.
I speak from experience because the loneliness and feeling of being put-out now I believe, has been the primary factor why I became limerent like I did in the first place. If you have read my posts over time, suicidal ideation even entered my head at one point. This was no joke. The insanity I took this LE to is an all-time new low for me.
Glad to have been able to give you a “thinker”. I appreciate your post as well.
MJ,
“In my case, (and if LE happened back then) my Ex probably would have ended up just feeling hurt again and unworthy. Which temporarily would have made me feel bad. Bringing down some of that allure.”
I think we’re talking about two different things ? One is disclosing unconsummated limerence to an SO. Limerence being an all-consuming obsession that is going to park inside your head for months (or years) on end. No, I don’t see how a limerent could keep that from an SO or how the SO couldn’t notice something seemed off with the limerent during their LE.
“That alone wouldn’t have been enough to stop my shenanigans. ”
By this I’m assuming you mean cheating ? I’m assuming you weren’t limerent for these women? Or maybe even not that interested in any of them? Correct me if I’m wrong. Were some of them crimes of opportunity? (I could be way off. I’m guessing. Idk.) Yes, I think that having sexual contact with someone else would need to be disclosed. But that’s different from unconsummated limerence. Limerence involves actual feelings, and I think it can be just as threatening as a PA. But that’s me.
And, also, the limerence wasn’t just in my head. Lines were crossed. I didn’t have a PA but I would have been uncomfortable with some of the stuff that happened had I been married to my LO.
@Marcia,
I can only think of only one person in my history I may have been limerent for back then. We had a few dates and I kissed her on occasion but her feelings never matched mine. When she went off to College, she pretty much broke things off and I panicked heavy about it for months. Following it up with anger. Which leads me to think it may have been somewhat a limerent thing.
There were other Women I messed around with and even after I was married. I remember crushing pretty hard on a few of them but no, none of them ever reached limerence status. My Wife suspected some things and figured them out on her own. I didn’t do my best to hide it. Finally she had enough. I really don’t blame her.
I get what you are saying about the all consuming obsession because nothing has ever felt like the LO experience.
What I was trying to say is if I was still married today and LO happened like she did, then passively I would try to play it off with my Wife and expect her to put up with my behavior. Hence the statement from my first post on this thread about having my cake and getting to eat it too. Yet who can say if it would have even happened?
I probably would have disclosed LO to her. I had a habit of loving to make her jealous. Now I’m single, lonely and kinda bitter.
Yes I do believe in karma..
MJ,
“What I was trying to say is if I was still married today and LO happened like she did, then passively I would try to play it off with my Wife and expect her to put up with my behavior. Hence the statement from my first post on this thread about having my cake and getting to eat it too. ”
I’m not sure what you mean by having your cake and eating it , too. Do you mean be looking for your LO at work, heavily flirting, having lunch with her, texting her outside of work, calling, emailing, while having an SO. Is that what you mean?
“I probably would have disclosed LO to her. I had a habit of loving to make her jealous.
No, that’s not a good motivation. To make someone jealous. I meant disclosure as an honest discussion of your feelings and what you’re going through.
“Now I’m single, lonely and kinda bitter.”
I don’t know your whole story, but I think you have to forgive yourself. Trust that if you got serious with someone in the future you wouldn’t make the same mistakes.
OMG I would be upset and devastated. I put *everything* in my diary, and after almost 30 years together, I trust that SO won’t read it. I hope he had a good reason, but still….You have my sympathies. 🙁
OMG Lovisa, i just read that historic post and it sounds like your husband was simply *excellent* in the circumstances when you disclosed. Did you expect he would react like that or did he surpass your expectations?
@limerentnurse – good luck. Thoughts with you here from another with limerence who wishes it wasn’t there. I hope you and your SO emerge stronger in the end although appreciate it will be a journey. Keep in mind DrL’s previous point that thoughts alone (and so the act of journalling them privately) are not an automatic reason to feel guilty.
That is a great question, Lim-a-rant. I had no idea my SO would handle my limerence so well. I marvel at his love for me. He told me to continue to have contact with both LO2 and LO3 because they are both good influences on me. He also wooed me. I had breakfast in bed more often than not, he gave me regular massages, he started running with me (which he didn’t like at the time, but he wanted to support my hobby), he brought home a new bouquet of flowers before the last bouquet died (the flower situation got out of hand because I didn’t have enough counter space to prepare meals around Valentine’s Day between my flowers and my daughters’ flowers, not that I’m complaining). My SO stepped up his game a lot. He is still wonderful to me, but most of the extra behaviors are special treats now instead of regular occurrences.
I couldn’t have predicted his reaction.
At the time when I disclosed to my SO, I didn’t know that he had snooped through my phone and read some stuff on LwL. He used that information to carefully ask me questions about limerence. I answered honestly and I didn’t know why he was asking. He also told me that I light up like a Christmas tree when I talk to or about LO3 and he asked if I had limerence for LO3. I shamefully admitted it. My SO had a lot of questions going forward and I answered them truthfully even though it was very uncomfortable. I was scared that my SO would decide that I’m not worth the effort, but luckily he thinks I am worth the effort. He is incredible and I feel grateful for him.
Lim-a-rant, hi
I’m of the opinion that as long as one is searching for ways to control or avoid an LE, one should not disclose to SO. Why bring them the suffering that comes with disclosure? It’s hard enough dealing with one’s feelings and intrusive thoughts over LO, to add more pains to deal with SO suffering too. It would be overwhelming trying to handle both at the same time!!!
What one needs is space and time to deal with all those emotions and feelings, intrusive thoughts, and even SO sometimes seems to become an obstacle for the limerent to find a quick solution to the LE , and get it over with. The ideal thing would be if there were some free space and time by oneself to sort out all of these emotions and come out with a plan and solution to the problem. For if this condition continues eventually one will “leak” and be found out.
It’s exactly two years of my LE and I spent ten long months in total auto pilot. My brain hijacked completely . Surely SO noticed something was amiss and told my Head doctor that I was “forgetting “.(I was absent) . She sent me to a neurologist. Took MRI and encephalogram , but nothing showed up. Of course, I’ve been crying and hurting but I wouldn’t add to my LE problem by disclosing to SO. It’s my problem and mine alone… I want to spare SO of the hurt and confusion this might bring to him. He doesn’t deserve it. But if discovered I would have taken the consequences. (NC 18 months now, LO lives in another continent).
Hope you find a way to handle your LE and get it over with. Best wishes.
Nisor,
I solute your choice and actions in handling your LE, which is very considerate and loving for your SO. We need not and should not to burden, under the name of “honesty”, those we deeply care. No one else, but ourselves, can dissolve our limerence by whatever means that fits each of us individually…
Hope you keep feeling better and stronger! 🫂
Lovisa,
Based on your descriptive stories, I think you are incredibly lucky to have an ideal husband, and your honest confessions (about your LEs) to your SO is brave and admirable — that’s the only way to go under your circumstance. Your SO can’t go any better in help you dissipate your LEs and amend your marriage. Solute to both of you!
„They defend their limerent object against your criticisms“
I‘m not really with this as a negative sign. Because the LO can really be quite ignorant and innocent in the whole matter. If a limerent defends them, it could be because he/she finally got it that the limerence is their problem alone and not something an evil LO caused. It might mean taking on responsibility and not shunting it at LO.
„They have had an affair“
Also, I’m a bit uncomfortable to have this on the „signs you can forget that marriage“ list. I assume you mean a PA.
For sure it’s a severe thing that had happened, but depending on the circumstances and the LO it might happen quite fast and can still be regretted much and got over. It depends also on the SO a lot, how he/she sees that kind of thing etc.
I just think it isn’t on a par with the other signs because it isn’t a present behavior („refuses to apologize“ etc) but happened in the past and might be regretted deeply, and it’s up to SO to forgive it or not, not up to us to put it on the no-no list.
It might diminish the chances of a couple to salvage the marriage if we pre-decide that SO should condemn it.
So in summary of where this has got to ….
Blue corner (disclose limerence to SO)
– until limerent does, their SO doesn’t have full facts, so has distorted view of marriage or relationship
– disclosure to SO might end up being a part of dampening down the LE faster
– high risk of ‘leakage’. Limerent being discovered or second guessed could be worse for all involved than honest admission before that happens
Red corner (don’t disclose to SO):
– if limerent is already taking purposeful action on their LE, disclosing could cause unnecessary hurt to the SO and add to the complex mix of emotions limerent is dealing with
– thought alone is not a crime if not acted upon – limerent has some right to privacy and dealing with LE in their own space
– risk that SO could end the relationship when limerent wants to fight for it (guess that is SO’s prerogative though)
Would love to hear what more people in different positions (especially SOs) think.
I am maybe moving from ‘definitely don’t ever disclose (current) LE to SO’ to wondering more if I should. I have compromised a bit lately by just being more open with SO about LO and her importance to me when questioned (LO is a long-term close friend, so I can be semi-authentic about that) but always with caveat ‘not as important as you’. It’s not disclosure and I am not saying it works brilliantly, but to me is better than outright denial and deceit. I think it is quite likely my SO suspects something (it is not an affair and no physical lines have been crossed, just in case people haven’t read my summary elsewhere).
@Nisor thanks for your reply to my yesterday that contributed to the above. A number of posts including mine and the replies have disappeared now, but I did see it before that, so big thanks. Hope you and yours are doing well.
– risk that SO could end the relationship when limerent wants to fight for it (guess that is SO’s prerogative though)
“Guess”? Wow.
Lim-a-rant,
“– thought alone is not a crime if not acted upon – limerent has some right to privacy and dealing with LE in their own space”
Is there anyone who doesn’t act on it at all? Who realizes they’re feeling something pretty strong and backs away?
@Marcia
> Is there anyone who doesn’t act on it at all? Who realizes they’re feeling something pretty strong and backs away?
It was me until the LE/EA that I mention here. Now trying to get back there, with a lesson learned that a LE is just LE and after it ends, I need to clean stuff in my life that made my brain start the limerence cycle.
here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-beating-limerence-when-no-contact-is-impossible/#comment-58161
Limerent anonymous,
“Now trying to get back there, with a lesson learned that a LE is just LE and after it ends, I need to clean stuff in my life that made my brain start the limerence cycle.”
I’m not sure what you mean.
From the post you linked, you were trying to emotionally support her and remain friends ? If I’m reading it correctly.
Backing away, to me, is backing away completely. Avoiding. Or as much as possible, given the situation.
@Marcia, my last LE/EA is beside the point, I wanted to highlight that in all previous LEs, I managed to not act upon them to the point of even killing ruminating thoughts whenever they came.
During my marriage, I did not act upon my two glimmer/infatuations at all. The first glimmer (my TA instructor, married with a kid) lasted 4 years (even after he relocated to LA), while the 2nd one (SO’s high school locker room buddy, single) 2.5 yrs. When SO and I together bumped into them in public, respectively, he immediately sensed my infatuation for both them — I simply have the worst poker-face to hide any infatuation/LE for someone.
SO joked a little bit about them and I just smiled it off. He never made any (in)formal inquires or over worried to the point of poking around my diaries (volumes of them).
I admit that my mind was very distracted (not sure if altered) during those “LEs” without even knowing what EA is, let alone limerence. PA was simply out of question!
Point absolutely taken Marcia (and Lee’s too – that wording was poor on my part. Of course its their prerogative).
With the ‘thought not a crime’ part I was trying to paraphrase something DrL said in an old post, but I might have mispresented the wording a little. I’ll try and find the link to that post later and put it here if I succeed.
I think you’re right though Marcia in that all limerents do ‘act’ on it at some stage – it is just how and for how long that varies.
Views are very varied on this issue of SO disclosure from other posters below. But as I said to MJ on this thread, it is hard when limerent to distinguish between our ‘normal/rational’ thoughts and the stories we tell ourselves. It’s a fact of the limerent state that it can cloud judgment. So a good part for me of starting to interact with the posts is that people will call out if someone says something that seems a bit off kilter / wrong. And if that someone is me, I will reevaluate the thing. So thanks on the ‘thought / action’ point!
Lim-a-rant,
“But as I said to MJ on this thread, it is hard when limerent to distinguish between our ‘normal/rational’ thoughts and the stories we tell ourselves. It’s a fact of the limerent state that it can cloud judgment. ”
Limerence does mess with your head, but it didn’t cloud mine so much that I didn’t know my behavior with my LO was on some level pursuing him. I knew what I was doing. I hardly shut down his attention. Until much later.
From SO’s perspective, anything not admitted to will be so much worse if it comes out later. There are brownie points for not keeping it a secret.
To SO, keeping it a secret = it’s special & private = cheating.
Then this SO’s relationship/marriage is a dictatorship or a “cage/prison.” Good luck to its happy success!
I believe even in a married/committed relationship everyone deserves some personal privacy. I’m not one of those people that thinks I have “the right” being married to check my wife’s phone. I don’t. Never will. She is an individual apart from me. And as that person I respect that privacy.
But being 25 years together, my wife being way more perspective than myself, she knew something was going on. The term limerence was irrelevant in the heat of it. However my belittling her accusations, playing down how I felt and holding LO to a pedestal that I would never let Momma reach were things I actually did. It took this blog and learning limerence to disclose to her what I had learned.
But as the above optimistic/pessimistic list goes disclosing because of being caught isn’t the same as disclosing for the benefit of the marriage. I am guilty of 80% of the pessimistic list. And doing all those that I was guilty of without remorse, at that time. Hiding things and respecting your spouse’s privacy are very different things. Is Momma chatting up some man on Facebook? I dunno. But until she gives reason to make me think she is than it’s not my business. She is an adult with her own agency. Momma never came to me about LO until she was certain something was not right. And in that case she every right to, in an attempt to save our marriage.
In an age where our privacy is being intruded on every second of our lives I think it is an important thing to differentiate privacy with withholding the truth.
Well said, Adam!
I agree!
Maria,
“From SO’s perspective, anything not admitted to will be so much worse if it comes out later. There are brownie points for not keeping it a secret.”
I agree. I’m not going to go through someone’s phone or email.
I guess some of this stuff is best negotiated. What each partner would want to know concerning other people, what behavior each considers crossing the line. But please don’t make a unilateral decision for me.
LaR
I don’t view disclosure to SO as a black and white issue. It’s very nuanced. Committed relationships and SOs are nuanced. LEs are nuanced. What is good for one couple might not be the same for another.
As of me writing this my SO has no clue about my LE. I intend to keep it that way. One thing that needs to be considered, a lot of limerents actually draw closer to their SO during the LE. My relationship with SO was on cruise control until my LE. In the turmoil I drew closer to her and we have been really close for 2+ years now. I’m not jeopardizing that by telling her about my LE. That’s my burden, not hers.
YMMV
Like I said when I started to post, Speedwagon, I know the LE has been really hard for you but from all you say, you come across as a great example of how to handle it responsibly and morally. I have learned much already from your posts, and thanks for all the replies to my dilemmas. Even long before I started interacting with any posts here, reading what you and others in similar boats had experienced held me back from making probably bad decisions (like disclosing to LO ‘to shut it down’) that I’m no longer tempted to make.
Thank you. Sometimes I still feel like I’m barely holding it together. And I don’t know how well I would have done if LO had reciprocated feelings and was willing to dance a little.
@Speed,
I second a lot of what LaR posted there. I’ve always considered your posting top notch in regards to how you grapple with your situation. You always seem to have your act together about it.
You mention your marriage is strong and has been for 2+ years since the LE. Farther down then, you mention that some days you can barely hold it together. Is this because you see LO on a daily basis and have to interact in occasion?
Asking because I too have those days where the rare occasion of seeing LO now or intrusive thoughts of her can bring me down low. To the point of tears still. Yet I have no SO and my new Lady Friend is just that. A Friend. So I feel like that lack-of-relationship plays a part in my feelings of sadness, inadequacy and loneliness. Whereas you have a Wife and marriage that appears to be strong.
Not that’s its any of my business and choose not to reply if I’m being too nosy. I guess I was just curious what LO is still doing for you that perhaps your SO isn’t? Or is it something else?Because the limerence hits when we are lacking something.
Thanks, MJ
It’s good to know some of the nonsense I write can help.
Saying I’m barely holding it together might be a little extreme but I still have a lot of tough days. Not to the point of crying but just general malaise. And yes, I do believe it’s because I see her half the week and I can’t escape her. The frustration of it all can get to me and I know if I were true NC this could end much quicker
My SO is better to me than LO in most every way except for maybe the sexual desire of being with someone new and unknown. But the LE persists and that is frustrating. But things are slowly getting better and I am determined to stay the course with LC.
Thank you @Speedwagon, I think I get it. You’re words are hardly nonsense. Malaise is a good way of putting it. Although it must suck having to muddle through that daily.
I can understand how it’s thrill of the unknown about LO, keeping those embers for her glowing. Best of luck to you in your management. You’re in my thoughts..
@Speed
“And I don’t know how well I would have done if LO had reciprocated feelings and was willing to dance a little”.
I suspect this is one where the grass feels greener on the other side, whichever side of the fence you land on. The presence of even a low level of dancing ramps up the highs, lows and linked turmoil. If not careful it can put the mood almost entirely in LO’s hands, even if they are unwitting about it.
Good point Speedwagon.
Here’s another reason not to disclose to SO – the LE feelings are not real. The entire thing is faintly ridiculous…one comes to realise that later, after recovering, somewhat.
We have all discussed the non real nature of limerence on here millions of times, so why burden SO, who may not believe the lack of real importance, or its transient nature, or its illogicality, due to jealousy and a failure to understand that limerence is an addiction, plain and simple. It is difficult for anyone to understand the nature of it, even those going through it. And, tbh, the paradoxical situation of both its magnitude/importance and simultaneously its lack of real importance because its just brain chemicals, make disclosing a real question without a glib answer. To me disclosing just seems like a waste of trust because I am dealing with my limerence, I havent crossed lines, I have cut contact to bare minimum and I have engaged more actively with my SO. Wheras if I told him, he might not understand how unimportant all this is, in a way.
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for your reply to me elsewhere about how you navigated your LE with your SO. I lost track of which post that comment was on before I could reply, but it was really helpful.
I like your points here under ‘why waste trust’ and I feel pretty much the same about how I want to handle my LE. For me, where you are at now is a point to aim towards, not somewhere I am at yet, but I have already begun to take steps in the right direction.
Hi,
Reading through all the comments and having partially disclosed my feelings about my LO to my SO in the past, I can say that it doesn’t really end well and I do not recommend it. Every marriage dynamic is different though so I think it should be a personal decision. Even though nothing happened between my LO and I, it still upset my SO. I think I was trying to unburden myself.
As discussed when I shared my stories earlier, my SO and I are going through a tough personal time. In spite of NC, my LE is still very strong and I’m resisting daily urges to contact my LO from my previous workplace. I haven’t so far but it’s killing me and giving me chest pain.
Recently I also accidentally gave the wrong signal to another person at work. It was very subtle/mild but he started avoiding me which made me feel worse. Hopefully I can fix that dynamic with him after giving it some time (nothing really happened to be honest, but I must have been a bit over friendly). I also have childhood trauma about being disliked – I grew up in a place where racism was extremely bad and I was also rejected by my own community – so everyone was insulting me on a daily basis and that left very deep wounds – I feel worthless daily and I’m still living through it so rejection does hurt because it brings back the pain.
However, the issue about holding in my limerent feelings is that I feel that men can sense that vulnerability. While one guy decided to pull away from me, there are two others that have started approaching me and I think I need to find a way to set a clear boundary and avoid sending out that signal needing validation. While I like the attention, it’s not good and even though most of it stays in my head, it just takes a vulnerable moment to let it slip into an ’emotional’ issue or something more. I just want someone to desperately give me attention and it can end very badly. Working through it with my SO but my situation is unique as my marriage is also going through ups and downs.
I’m still in a lot of pain and feeling really bad about the 2nd work incident. I’m almost taking this person’s rejection as badly as the LO’s even though the 2nd guy isnt’ an LO. So I am just praying for these thoughts to go away. Limerence can destroy you inside and there isn’t a day that I don’t wake up feeling like crying and hating myself.
@Limerent Lady,
With my own experiences of cptsd (neglect and abandonmen traumas), of seeking an ideal surrogate parental figure from all my LOs, and of a great deal of healing the past wounds, I think I could boldly chip in a couple of thoughts to your case:
1. Your childhood trauma is your own issue exclusively, no LOs or SO could help you (not me definitely), Period! It will be very helpful to find a cptsd specialized therapist to work solely with.
2. Somehow you need to find ways to stop seeking external attentions; they won’t heal your childhood trauma. The forever missed attention you were supposed to get in childhood cannot be made up by any other grownups, especially LOs/men; because you are no longer that child, and LOs/men are not those needed parental/caregiving figures back then.
3. Please see clearly that while you seek to heal your past wounds through befriending with those attractive men, they might be allured by your attraction, not your true vulnerabilities. Even some of them are one of those “white knights” wishing to save a damsel in distress, they’re not trained professionals able to assist your healing process. Loading your own inner pains to them or to SO is futile, even if understandable.
4. Where to get your needed attention without being disappointed? I think from books! Great books speak to, train, and sharpen your mind, they accompany your inner journey, inspire your imaginations, and help you understand your past traumas… they never demand your attention and are always there when you need them. In the most painful phrase of my LE, I picked up Stoicism to study, along with some psychology and self-help stuff, such as Jungian individuation and Buddhism….
Then I was able to take the healing into my own hand and healed my cptsd a great deal. Together with LwL’s knowledge, I’ve grown 10 times taller than 5 years ago, although most of the time I “stand” alone….
Everyone and every couples have their ups and downs, we all need to figure out some plausible ways to efficiently work with and solve own issues. No one else can “save” or nourish our mind/soul, except our own determination and efforts….
Please make yourself strong and independent!
Thank you for this. Childhood trauma and low self esteem is a big part of it. I do love intellectual pursuits and I can really geek out. Working through self compassion techniques with the therapist (her focus is CBT) but maybe I need to increase my therapy sessions.
I’ve started to dress up more and I’m wondering if I should just tone it down. On one hand, it helps with self esteem but on the other, each time a guy validates me I get a thrill and run a high risk of finding a new LO. It’s a slippery slope. I do love Buddhism and I’m trying to be detached but it’s not easy. Trying to avoid caring about others but the wounds run deep and even if someone dislikes me just a little it really affects me. I think not all issues are related to limerence, there is more at play here.
Limerent Lady,
CBT does not work for me personally, because it pushes down my thoughts and emotions into unconscious, which then continues affecting or impacting my psyche and behaviors without me knowing. My LO#5 also worked with it and claimed it was not working for his chronic depression.
Cptsd works with finding and understanding roots of your traumas and their continuous symptoms and impact in your current life. It can be quite painful, with bucks of tears waiting for one. I suggest that you give it try to see if it works for you.
Living in a Buddhistic way in the West is very challenging, one’s compassion can be taken advantaged of. Self-compassion is vital and takes time to cultivate. I grew up in the Buddhistic tradition, but find Stoicism brings me more concrete, tough mental tools to deal with my vanity, vulnerability, validation seeking. There is a lot of wisdom in Stoic Philosophy. Marcus Aurelius’ meditation is free online, give it a shot to see if it speaks to you.
You want my opinion about dresses? — DRESS DOWN with minimum makeup!! If you want to be truly liked as a person, then let your personality speak, not your outfits! If you love Buddhism, then be humble and moderate, seeking NOT those thrills, and repeatedly ask yourself: Who am I? Why do I deserve this or that? Am I taking anything for granted in life? What are my desires? Are they natural or manmade? Having those desires/wishes occasionally granted made me feel content and fulfilled, for how long?
Now forgive me to be blend to ask you a couple of questions, you do NOT need to answer me here, just think about them deeply and really be honest with yourself —
1. Why do you NEED to be liked? Especially by guys, considering you already have a SO (I didn’t read your old posts until today)?
2. What parts of you do you want to be liked? Why? Are they same parts to male and female? (I’m a grown tomboy)
3. Imagine I were a stranger, a very attractive woman/man, knowing almost nothing about you, if I just met you or bumped into you in public, why should I like you? In what ways do you wish I like you? If I don’t (my standards are very high), why would you feel hurt considering I have no association in your life??
4. Now think hard and ask if this hurtful feeling is from childhood, or truly from the current reality. Do not be afraid of going back to those painful childhood memories. (That’s why it’s better to do cptsd work with a caring, empathizing professional therapist.)
From your brief messages, your issues seem to be more related to your childhood traumas, which often lead one into limerence without awareness or understanding, that’s my experience. I think “Crappy Childhood Faire” series could help a lot — it’s all about childhood neglect and Limerence:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl504D3b_OPhL2U5T5rxS7O_d_q5JKyfH&si=ZIgOHGCST3VuCcYw
Every limerent is in limerence in his/her own ways, every childhood trauma imprints differently in the suffering mind. We all need to find out our unique pains (styles of their manifestations) and all possible modules for solution.
Sorry if my cold talk has no diplomatic skills or little patience here…. I’m always in a run from those thought policemen on my 👠 😎
@ Phoenix, I really appreciate your candid response and I’m on this blog to keep getting reality checks and snap out of this stupid candy land. The need for validation is becoming extreme and I’m also considering getting a more thorough psych evaluation to calm my anxiety & perhaps pills. My marriage has been in a rough spot due to our child and though we’re working on it, we’re in very demanding professions so my SO barely spends time with me. I’ve tried to revert that but it just doesn’t happen so I’m at risk on many fronts.
However, I do want to stay with him and be faithful but the net result is that all of these childhood traumas, other traumas etc have been emerging and I keep falling into limerent episodes. Especially trying to seek validation from guys to feel ‘pretty’ and wanted (that answers 1).
2. What parts of you do you want to be liked? Why? Are they same parts to male and female? – I just want to live a romance again, but it will destroy my life if I do.
3. Good point, there’s nothing obliging them to like me but I’ve been rejected so many times that those wounds haven’t healed. Even my SO rejected me at some point so I expect to be rejected.
4. Many things to unpack.
I’ve followed videos from the crappy childhood fairy before, let me dive deeper into it. The thrill that I get when a man gives me his attention is addictive and it’s easy to fall limerent so I really feel like I need to stop it & snap out of it.
There was a point in life when I was spiritual and content about 10 years ago. I did not need anything and I came out of a bad relationship (long before I met my SO). I only wish I could go back to that peace and that’s where the Buddhism helps, but this time it’s just harder to detach & practice stoicism.
Dear Limerent Lady,
“…rejection does hurt because it brings back the pain.”
You mentioned getting a pain in your chest when you think about LO from your previous job (sounds like anxiety). You also deal with a child who has extra needs (which has got to lead to a lot of worry), and you suffer from social anxiety because you have experienced racism in the past and rejection in your youth from within your community. This is an awful lot to handle and I think tackling the anxiety, as you have already identified, must come first.
I am also an anxious person. My LE helped distract me from that, but what I really needed was to reduce the work stress, reduce the family stress, and work on self worth. The work stress was reduced by saying to no to discretional things at work and only doing what I needed to, minimally, for a while. The family stress eventually resolved itself because of deaths in the family (given the very long drawn-put nature of that stress, it was almost a relief on the short term but I probably haven’t fully processed it yet), regarding the self worth, I am trying to consciously relax more. If I wake early, I fill those hours with pleasant thoughts (not about LO!) maybe a movie I watched or a book I read; if I start to feel anxious about a thorny issue, I force myself to stop ruminating on it and park it after a few minutes thought. I make notes on my phone to remind myself to do things, rather than keep a running list” in my mind so that my mind is clear to focus on nice thoughts. Sometimes those thoughts are simple things like what I am going to cook for dinner, or what fun things we can plan as a family, etc.
The other thing I do is really pay attention to my appearance and looking nice, for my own benefit and no-one else’s. I don’t dress up deliberately because ‘dressed down’ is my style. But I dress down well, if you know what I mean. Well-fitting clothes, not too revealing, but with thought and some care. Looking well put-together is something everyone can do. It brings satisfaction in itself. The appreciative looks or comments from friends and strangers are just a bonus.
LO’s are a source of appreciation too but I think we can all agree that its a poisoned chalice! I prefer the non-specific appreciation these days (anyone but LO!); however I do think its best to avoid looking for this from men in the workplace. Give the appreciation to yourself, admire your own choices and ‘looks’ and you won’t need as much external validation. But, first and foremost, try to relax your mind and stop being so hard on yourself.
Sending hugs.
@Limerent Lady,
Now I understand a bit better your situation, let’s see if I’m somewhat accurate here —
1. Your unresolved childhood traumas (no longer the events themselves but their detrimental impact), existing marital (absented husband) and parenting challenges (a child with extra needs) are overwhelming, seemingly beyond your abilities to face and handle alone.
2. Therefore, you (sub)consciously seek external attentions, especially from guys (very normal), to get a sense of romantic feelings and superficial thrills to temporarily forget/dull/escape from your realistic pains at home and deep inside your chest.
3. Your worst fear/pain is rejection (everyone hates rejections!), which you got not only in childhood but also from your SO, which certainly triggers your cptsd wounds, more than other stranger guys’ anticipated or perceived rejections.
4. Based on my struggles to heal cptsd wounds, I know for sure that those external amorous attention/validation help little, even if they fall in love/limerence with you/us! It’s like if you have a toothache, two dozens of roses from a guy or your husband would not cure your toothache. You need a dentist to remove causes of the pain.
5. Again, you MUST get strong first in order to help yourself, your child, and your loving relationship with your SO.
A. Get a psychological evaluation and then appropriate therapy. A effective professional’s help will make you feel much less alone in this battle to improve mental health. I strongly recommend to stay away from any pills to begin with, they all have compromising side effects that can mess up with our mind/thinking and neural system.
B. Must keep some form of cardio exercises at least half an hour a day, doing some mindful meditation would be a plus. If body is out of shape, anxiety and all sorts of distress WILL strike and stay with you — your chest pains, NO EXCEPTION/escape with anyone.
C. Learn more about cptsd and its treatments from reputable resources (you can’t rely on a therapist 24/7). If you already know Buddhism well, then try some Stoic tricks to build an emotional and mental shield.
D. Take Bewitched’s advice: get validation from YOURSELF first and far most. Dress down well FOR YOURSELF, with your imaginative and creative talents in attire.
A lot of us have traumas of one kind or another when we grow up — this world is so imperfect! Yet, we are NOT permanent damaged! All we need to do is to recognize how those old traumas have impacted our lives in the past and present. If when young, we were helpless relying on others’ mercy of acceptance/rejection, we are now grown, more knowledgeable and resourceful. We can change our mindset of a victim. In fact, in order to fully get over the past dark impacts, thrive now and in the future, we MUST change and rid of a victim mentality!
Once you become stronger — physically and psychologically, you’ll be able to help yourself, your child, your couple/family life more effectively. Then confidence will grow inside you, and that light will naturally shine on your face and whole being. Its sparkles in your eyes will naturally draw admiration and liking from others — your SO, other men and women, children and animals all included, even when you have no such an intention…. Imagine that joy!
Again, no one else can truly save us, only ourselves. Rely on yourself with others’ truly helpful assistance, YOU can do it!
I am going to try to keep this on topic … in regard’s to Limerent Lady and Bewitched’s comments about fashion and confidence. Since this is about Limerent Lady’s marriage survival.
About four years ago, I didn’t like how I looked. I dropped almost 40 lbs and invested in something in my closet beside blue jeans and print t-shirts.
Now had I been doing this like that for the right reason initially, than maybe that would strengthened my confidence and strengthened our marriage bond rather than doing so to get her (LO) attention. Which is why I did it. Yeah I’m a jerk.
Anyway four years of maintaining those things about me; going out with Momma looking my best for HER. I get multiple looks and compliments. I have several men my age and older comment on my fashion sense. And honestly makes me feel more than if it had been a woman, as I know it is genuine.
My point to Limerent Lady’s marriage is building confidence in yourself make kick start with either attention or validation from others. But why do I still keep this fashion up? Because it is now a part of me. And it feels good to walk with Momma on my arm looking my best for her. This strengths my attraction to her. It gives me a feel of accomplishment that I can turn heads; men or women, because they probably aren’t really noticing my attire per say but more like “wow look at the effort he puts into her still”. And yeah “still” cause we are both gray haired lol Our age is no secret.
That’s a confidence that is not fleeting and not dependent on LO noticing me for a brief time. This gives me a foundation of confidence that I want to keep building on for Momma. Not for her attention or validation but for the eyes that are on her in public. That may inspire others. Putting an effort into how you present yourself can inspire in your spouse how much that you care about them. It matters to them how others see you when you are with them. Not for an ego boost. That’s just my two cents. I think if you put into what you are seeking external validation from others into your SO you will find that they do validate you and give you the attention and care you desire.
Thanks everyone for your help on this. It’s been crazy on my end and will respond properly over the weekend. Appreciate all of you looking out for me and sharing your stories.
30 years ago, I had an SO who insisted that we should tell each other if we found somebody else attractive, so if we broke up it wouldn’t be a shock. Well, he kept telling me about all his crushes, including his brother’s fiancee, coworkers and cute girls working drive-throughs. (This all happened over one summer!) He was emotionally abusive and I found myself falling for a kind friend who I’d had a crush on previously. At the time I didn’t recognize I had to leave; instead, I told my SO as he told me I should. This led to more verbal and emotional abuse from him, and then he broke things off. Later on one of his friends even scolded me for telling him about the LO, and how he’d feel if his own girlfriend told him she had feelings for somebody else. Sometimes revealing your LO to an SO is actually dangerous. Situations vary–and the SO’s tendency toward jealousy.
Good morning Dr. L,
Many posts have disappeared from this blog since yesterday. Having difficulties with the blog?
Have a splendid week next to yours.💪🏽
In theory, I suspects if a poster asks their posts to be removed (by DrL) for whatever reasons (I did once due to an error), all the responsive posts under that thread would be gone as well. However, I don’t know enough the latest IT technology/coding skills to know about how to save the responsive posts when an original one is removed.
Hi all , I know these are all well meaning comments (and Nisor you are so warm hearted), however, if L. Nurse wanted her post to be cut here, then in my view, lwl community should fully respect that and not continue the conversation of what the topic was about and not comment or conjecture any further on it, please. Sending L.nurse warmest wishes and indeed a hug . Nisor, of course, you send the best hugs.
IMHO,
But the topic related to LN is universal across cultures, which arose a fundamental question: is the licensed “love” more important than one’s birthright to feel, think, and speak?
Hi Nisor,
Yes, I occasionally delete comments from people who contact me to specifically request it (at my discretion), and any replies will get caught in that deletion too. Similarly, this morning I’ve cut some more replies for reasons of privacy. I try to be as light-touch as possible, as I appreciate that comments can often contain gold, but generally assume that people will understand.
Reminder that general discussion is welcome on the Coffeehouse posts, but I do also try to keep comments below specific articles on topic as far as I can 🙂
Yes, Dr. L. , I understand your concern for posters privacy and the reason for deleting posts. You’re a compassionate person. My apologies if I have crossed any lines and put you in any discomfort. Trying to put limerents
in a straight line and in order, is like trying to put little kids to stand in a straight line. You’d need a rope for them to hold unto … we’re bad, lol!
Have a great day. 💪🏽
Can a marriage recover from limerence? I dunno. Ask the woman that still sleeps in the same bed with me. She obviously has some insight.
She does fully not know, either – human psyche is vastly complex and oneself often can’t foretell what will happen. Everything and everyone is in flux no matter in what kind of situations, LE or not.
It depends how you two amend the slightly cracked vase. It’s not a single-handed work!
Good luck, Adam.
I meant more that her experience with me is more pointed to people understanding that side of it. L.E. told me when Momma first posted that to his recollection we are the only time a limerent and spouse simultaneously posted here. I texted her about this post. I don’t know if she will comment but I told her I am sure there are many here that would be interested in point of view as the wife of a limernet.
For me, it’s not why she is still here with me, but that she is still here with me. But there maybe spouses of limerents lurking here that could learn from her perspective.
I think Lovisa’s SO is an excellent example of how to handle spouse’s LE. I’m envious of that kind of big heart, deep love, and great effort to repair and strengthen their love/marital bond.
Snow,
I see Lovisa’s situation as more of an anomaly on LwL.
I don’t know if Lovisa’s SO endorses her LE or just tolerates it. Either way, she gets to indulge herself.
This indulgence can come with risk. Making this work depends on understanding and maintaining boundaries. Lovisa can control hers but she can’t control her LO’s.
The longer the LE continues, the stronger the attachment is likely to become. Things can change overnight, LO’s can go off script, and things can get very ugly very quickly.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-be-safely-harnessed/
Can limerence be safely harnessed?
Maybe, maybe not but my money would go on the latter.
LE,
I haven’t followed Lovisa’s lengthy and complicated stories closely, except the part that she disclosed to her SO and his reactions. I was mostly commenting on his behavior, which reminds my own “saintly” father who illogically forgave my Narc, betraying mother again and again… so puzzling!
Is Lovisa still in a LE with LO # 1, 2, 3? I know she said that she’s thought to be an enabler here… I assume she knows what she’s doing as a grown woman and mother…
LE,
“The longer the LE continues, the stronger the attachment is likely to become. Things can change overnight, LO’s can go off script, and things can get very ugly very quickly.”
Things probably won’t change that much if the LE has been going on for some time. If you read most of the posts on here, there’s a certain dynamic that’s been set between the limerent and the LO and it doesn’t usually change all that much.
If the limerent is in some kind of undefined-friendship-strange-holding-pattern-limbo with their LO (which is very common), that’s usually where things remain. The LO doesn’t suddenly stand up and demand more from the limerent or want clarification.
This is a generalization, but the LO is usually perfectly happy leaving things where they are.
Sharp observation
I don’t know–Every time I think I know what’s up with LO, he does something that throws me for a loop and changes the dynamic. Seems I’ve got a live one here….
Serial Limerent,
“Every time I think I know what’s up with LO, he does something that throws me for a loop and changes the dynamic. Seems I’ve got a live one here….”
Then that’s your pattern. Your dynamic. Your LO is inconsistent. Which kind of lines up with a lot of LOs.
My LO was a bit hot and cold. That didn’t change over time. He just eventually leaned more and more to the colder end.
What I got from him was what I got. Waiting him out and hoping he’d give me more or finally let me know what he wanted and what he was feeling was a waste of time.
People who want to make their feelings known make them known. If someone is being obtuse, they want to be.
Back in 2021 when I wanted to pull myself away completely from LO, fed up by his lukewarm treatment, he said to me in a park, “I don’t think our relationship would be any different if I had not found my ideal wife, but I wish to grow older with you together… “
Some LOs would NEVER walk away on their own from their limerents’ affection, even if limerents verbally punch their face! For some insecure reasons, they need and want that LE fuel beyond logic… As DrL describes, they’re in limerence with others’ limerent affection for them.
Only limerents themselves or a Fate could sever the LE tie with LOs!
Snow, this is spot on: 1. Your childhood trauma is your own issue exclusively, no LOs or SO could help you (not me definitely), Period! It will be very helpful to find a cptsd specialized therapist to work solely with.
2. Somehow you need to find ways to stop seeking external attentions; they won’t heal your childhood trauma. The forever missed attention you were supposed to get in childhood cannot be made up by any other grownups, especially LOs/men; because you are no longer that child, and LOs/men are not those needed parental/caregiving figures back then.
3. Please see clearly that while you seek to heal your past wounds through befriending with those attractive men, they might be allured by your attraction, not your true vulnerabilities. Even some of them are one of those “white knights” wishing to save a damsel in distress, they’re not trained professionals able to assist your healing process. Loading your own inner pains to them or to SO is futile,
And this: Based on my struggles to heal cptsd wounds, I know for sure that those external amorous attention/validation help little, even if they fall in love/limerence with you/us! It’s like if you have a toothache, two dozens of roses from a guy or your husband would not cure your toothache. You need a dentist to remove causes of the pain.
Thank you for posting this. I think this nails it. The LO is not the answer!
@Beth 2,
You’re right: LO is not an answer, but an (sub)conscious escape. With a good LO, one gets superficial consolation; with a bad one (playing hot-n-cold), one’s old traumas could be 10 times fold triggered again!
But LO could serve as a catalyst for an informed, aware limerent to recognize and own his or her past issues — impacts of old traumas and a possible cause for easily falling into limerence, and then seize this LE chance to fundamentally heal one’s own traumas.
Easy said than done, a lot of concrete physical and mental works are needed consistently for months or even years…
Good luck to your healing journey!
Hello, I know this doesn’t really fit the topic but I want to make sure that someone reads this. After 16 years of limerance I slowly got the feeling that I had the whole thing under control. I got really good at not thinking about LO and when I saw him a few months ago it was just a bit ‘meh’ and no longer a heartbreaking experience like before. I felt like my brain was in balance for the first time in my life. But then I fell in love again (gag) a few weeks ago and I thought from the beginning oh oh this could really go down the drain and tada so it was. You can all congratulate me on my second LO. Fuck ey! I thought maybe it was over with just one time but apparently that’s how my brain works. and now I’m sitting here and I’m hopeless. I really don’t know how I’m going to manage this again. I don’t know where I’m going to find the strength to fight my fantasies again. Help?
@hopeisabitch,
My guess is you have something else going on in your life causing you to fixate on the idea of a LO. You don’t mention if this is the same LO or a new one but I guess it doesn’t matter. Nobody really plans to become limerent. I know I didn’t.
Perhaps you can find a Therapist or someone you trust who you can talk to about this. You can dive into something else you love to do, like a hobby or a sport. Something to take your mind off LO. If nothing else, you have this forum here and People who understand what you’re going through. I wish you well.
Stay in touch as long as you need to..
WOW I wish I’d discovered this site years ago when my husband and I were going through growing pains and I fell into the throws of some MAJOR limerence. Instead, after endless tortured searching the only narratives that seemed to fit the intensity of my emotional experience were coming from polyamory blogs/communities.
Nowhere else seemed to understand I loved my husband and was STRUGGLING with my obsession with LO, I didn’t want to cheat or end my marriage. I was young, very traumatized and not yet diagnosed AuDHD (majorly lacking in reflective and emotional regulation skills, I ain’t perfect now either but understanding myself has helped me get appropriate therapy and skills interventions), and really, really embarrassed and alone. How could I be having these intense feelings that I associated with love for someone NOT my husband? I still loved him the same and wanted to work through the difficulties! Everywhere was telling me I was just foolish (thx, already felt that) or it was just fleeting (LE did NOT feel like that) or that I was in the wrong because by having close friends I was OBVIOUSLY not protecting my marriage (which I wasn’t, but I only encountered that messaging from sources that were too “traditional values” for my tastes).
And then in waltzes all this info on polyamory and how it’s fine, it’s just more love! Sure it’s hard, but it’s BETTER hard! If you’re falling in love with more than one person, maybe that just might mean the problem is you’re not actually monogamous! I know I’m being quite facetious, I don’t think those circles were in any way malicious and I’m sure that’s how it is for people who actually DO suit polyamory. UNFORTUNATELY I took all this to mean that I should tell my husband I was in love with another person too but it was fine because I still loved him and the love was all equal and isn’t that nice. I thought that since I’d had intense crushes on two people at once before in my teens, that probably meant actually I’d been poly the whole time and maybe this was just yet another thing I was relearning about myself as I worked through my traumas. You can predict how hurt my husband was by all of this.
My emotional intensity and confusion made it come across to my husband like I was giving an ultimatum of “open our marriage or I’m leaving”. What I was feeling was that I was scared we wouldn’t be able to resolve things and it would lead to divorce and I didn’t know what else to try. He thought he needed to tough it out and agree to it to keep me, I thought he’d actually decided it was a good idea too. BIG communication gap there on my part and in time I figured out better ways to work on my emotional regulation to improve my ability to communicate in tough situations. My husband and I are still together and love each other deeply, we have done a LOT of work to grow together and heal our enmeshed family patterns to learn how to come TOGETHER through difficulties rather than repeat the push-pull-give in-resent cycle we both didn’t know before how NOT to do.
But the damage that my foolish stint thinking my LE meant polyamory was the right choice did to our relationship is immense and we really, REALLY could have done without my flailing attempts to fix things leading me there. Limerence describes the horrible, heady experience SO much more accurately and I’m sitting here feeling real damn regretful I didn’t learn THIS terminology a decade ago. I’m glad to see this seems to be such a thriving community that supportive of one another’s healing! I will definitely be back as I continue working on myself. Happy to say that while I’ve painted a bleak picture things HAVE majorly improved and I figured out that having crushes (which I’d now call LE’s lol) is NOT a good experience but it’s also actually freeing to stomp put the obsession early. I think part of why I struggled so much with cutting loose my LO’s in the past was the fear that I wouldn’t have close connections if I did, because everyone I instantly felt insanely close with ended up being this heartsick, messy “crush” and how could I bear to cut out these people when before I met my husband, I’d never really had ANYONE I was close to as a friend? Hubby’s who encouraged me to start making friends and I just really did NOT know how about it in a healthy way. Have come to learn in time that the no boundaries, headlong rush of limerence is NOT good for a friendship and that sort of headiness is worth stepping back from even when it still feels platonic because it inevitably become a limerent crush, and frankly the LE isn’t good for me OR my marriage whether it feels platonic or romantic!
Hi FnFn,
sounds like you already learned a lot about yourself even before finding the limerence terminology.
And you‘ve got an understanding loving SO and a relationship where you can talk about things. That’s a lot!
Welcome and I hope things will keep improving for you!
Thank you for your kind words Mila! Finding this framework through which to view my experiences just really makes everything “click,” you know? So glad I have it now so that my husband and I can continue to grow together in our deeper understanding of each other!
Sounds like we have a lot in common! 🙂
My wife and I tried polyamory. She fell for her male boyfriend. I became uncomfortable. Any honouring of me fell away and only negativity to my past indiscretions showed up as a defence. The more I tried to be seen, the more obsessed she has become.
He is single and was actually off work with depression having been dropped by his ex rather badly when my wife met him at a wedding in September last year. They immediately spent the night together so boundaries were broken on the first night so goodness knows what was embedded right from the beginning.
Since then their relationship has become more intense – Since March my illness towards what has happened has become worse, my need to win her back more clingy, her limerence more intense with each pathetic loss of control from me as I have watched and experienced this unfolding. (Interesting that cultural forces can seek to uphold her position that “the poly idea was mine so I should lie in the bed I have made”.)
2 months ago I sat with them in two 5 hour sessions trying to discuss how to make it all work but it was clumsy and awkward, none of us knew – They were unable to share and insight into their feelings for each other, I sat there exposing my vulnerability. The day after my wife admitted she couldn’t operate both relationships and that she had discussed with the bf, between the two ‘summits’ of 3 way discussion, if he could ever thinking about spending the rest of her life with him. Needless to say the second 5 hour discussion had been conducted with me without full honesty and it was at that point, we all know things were pretty messed up. The disclosure rocked me to the core and it was at the moment, I asked her to “kill it.”
My 15 year old son has become aware of the situation and it has devastated him. Now that he is aware, my wife has chosen to end the relationship rather than affect heartache, disruption and discord to a 30 year marriage with 4 children, friends, family and community connection.
It then took my wife and her bf four 5 hour meetings to “spiral down” and say ‘goodbye’ (a process I uncomfortably accepted) . I then found after the final goodbye meeting they have continued to contact each other by message and to speak on the phone using words of love, the romance continuing. This was discovered and as we are right now, the decision to have complete NC has been made.
I even called him myself to tell him, wound up asking him, and he pretty much told me to go-to-hell “if that’s what x [my wife] wants, she can tell me herself!”
Readers may recognise this: She goes through of admissions of infatuation but cycles back to claims of “twin flame” love and such wonders only happen “once in a lifetime.”
We were happy before the poly idea. We had issues but this was a wrong choice to explore as it exposed major rifts that widened rather than healed. Now we can use the experience to cultivate something new if we can build again but I am petrified she will break the NC. Also, at the same time, I know in my heart she really does need time to grieve him.
We have agreed we need space from each other as this whole time we have been living in the same house, seeing each other often, and arguing much. We have a plan to do that whilst at the time attempting to reconnect.
My wife is still affectionate, she has shown signs of sorrow towards what has happened, she has promised to work again on us, real honest statements. She is not normally prone to distrust but this whole thing has broken us both.
Oh boy, Jonty Spool, that sounds difficult. When I read that you two tried polyamory, I initially assumed you were a young couple. I see that you are well established as a couple. I can’t imagine how you will move forward together. I wish I had words of encouragement to offer, but your situation is more difficult than anything I have encountered. My nephew and his wife are the only couple in my social network who openly experimented with polyamory. They are going through a divorce right now. The polyamory lasted a few years and they sold it as a good choice. I don’t know why they’re divorcing, but I suspect their alternate lifestyle didn’t prove to be as “good” as they expected. I really don’t know and I want to respect my nephew’s privacy so I haven’t asked.
I am so sorry you are going through this. I hope you both find a good path forward for your sakes and for the sake of your children.
I just thought of something that I would like you to consider. You mentioned that you did something questionable in the past. That is unfortunate, but it is in the past. Your decisions going forward should reflect the present situation. Your wife will probably want to bring up your past misdeeds to justify her current behavior. I hope you don’t let that guilt cloud your judgement. Your past mistakes are not what is hurting your marriage today. Today, the problem is that your wife “fell in love” with another man. That is the problem. That is what needs to be discussed. The past is in the past. I could be wrong, but it seems important to point this out.
I recommend that you contact Marriage Helper. If anyone can help you two, they can.
Thank you for sharing your heartbreaking story. Best of luck! I hope to see you here again.
Thank you – my past indiscretions have never been infidelity. Things like misuse of substances years back (from which I’ve recovered).
I’ll look at marriage helper.
It seems the polyamory alternative life style didn’t bring the expected results, as Lovisa said.
It may work for awhile, until one of the partners fall for the third person. The children, oh, the children!!!
It could lead to terrible outcomes. I watched the following video and it brings nightmares to my mind:
Video: “Spousal murder unveiled.” Fatal Vows- True Crime
Banijay Crime , site
We’re humans and betrayal is something that is not taken lightly.
It has to do with self esteem, self respect , values and trust.
See video:
Dr, Jordan B. Peterson on infidelity-betrayal
Site : Joseph +855
Best wishes to all.
Vídeo: “Jordan Peterson unleashes the brutal truth about relationship betrayal.”
Site: The breakup Bounce
Thanks for these lists. When your limerent SO is all over the map, it’s possible to have many checks on both lists. So then what do you do? y suggestions: the next level of analysis you might do is decide among the things on the lists which select ones (checked or not checked) on the optimism side do you consider fundamental and which select ones on the pessimism side is a dealbreaker. Then set your boundaries and prepare yourself to be on your own if you have to be. Know you will be all right, either way.
It’d important to know the memory of euphoria fades – I liken it to the pain of childbirth, you remember you experienced it but you can’t recall or re-produce the sensation. Your spouse isn’t limerent for the real person as they are, their character could be quite lousy, in fact. It’s not about looks. You’re probably quite appealing yourself. There is no competition between you and LO. Read that last sentence three times.
Your spouse is hung up on the chemistry super-charged by uncertainty. But through habituation, the feelings generated by your spouse’s thoughts will diminish and in most cases shrink, seem like another lifetime ago, disappear (it can be a short or long process, but it’s their inner world, not yours). Life will take over and the rewards of being alive in his or her own life and moving on will have more appeal than living in an illusion with its diminishing returns. One day they accept there is no future there and start to remember the flaws they saw, the areas of incompatibility in character or lifestyle that wouldn’t have suited them really. If they invest in their own life, after awhile they don’t care where that person is or what they’re doing. Never see them agsin? Meh.
Those who stay stuck in it for life, or nurse it as some romantic ideal that forever separates them from loving in reality, are those not investing in their actual life in the real world.
So let your spouse go through the process on his or her own, insist they do it quietly, while treating you right, and stop trying to control the process for him or her. Frankly, it’s none of your business.
Instead, watch how he or she treats you. Does he start treating you as precious again, does she laugh and have fun with you and make plans for the future? Do you have that intuitive sense that tells you he is present and she is sincere? And most of all, is he or she investing in making life a good one, as best it can be, and getting on with it with enthusiasm and energy.
Often they admire something about the LO (eg. maybe they have more freedom, or more education, or a talent, a job that garners more attention or offers more opportunity for creativity, maybe they have an enviable relationship with their kids, or more money, or more friends or move in more appealing circles). It’s your spouse’s job to create his own version of what he envies. And that takes focus. If you envy domething about the LO concentrate on creating your version of that in your own life.
Now this is the hardest part and I strongly encourage people to read Elizabeth Strout’s novels and collections of linked stories. Thry will hrlp you with gaining the petspective you need. The limerence does not cancel you out. The times you spent or continue to spend with someone you love, or once loved, matter. It happened too. It has the meaning you assign it. You were there. You know what happened and how it was, even though you can’t reproduce the sensations at the time.
You have to accept the limerence happened. You understand more clearly that the person you thought was all yours is and was always a separate person. Someone else took up a chunk of real estate in his or her brain for awhile, in larger or smaller proportions over time.
You have to accept this, whether you stay together or break up. The writer Pessoa says the worst pain we feel is wishing for the impossible (The Book of Disquiet).
But truth be told, in a long marriage, there will be someone who has taken up or will take up a bit of real estate in your mind and hopefully you handle or handled it better. Your spouse had to accept that too, whether or not the spouse knows about it, no matter how fleeting or long-lasting that was. What Elizabeth Strout tells us in her novels is that that doesn’t negate a long marriage.
All you can do now is set your boundaries and make the best of your time together, and invest in your own life as well as your life together. Prepare until you know deep down that if your boundaries are violated again, you can live without this person and it will be fine.
“Never see them agsin? Meh.”
CJ
I think what if I see her again (not actively seeking her out just by happenstance) and can totally talk to her as I would any other human? Sure we can reminisce about memories of working together. I can ask about her daughters or her gentleman friend. But without the gushing and obsession and ruminating afterwords. I think that is the biggest step of all. To me that would be an unspoken apology to her for my past actions. And that would be a tremendous growth for me personally.
I think there’s too much romantic nonsense limerents cling to beyondcall reason. One thing that would help your limerent spouse , or yourself if you’re the limerent, to fall out of limerence is to identify those situations where the LO is a narcissist using methofs of “narcissistic hypnosis” on you or your spouse. In fact, it might be surprising to know how many LOs fall into this category because the methods are simple and the narcissistic rewards are high. The uninformed limerent has no idea who they’ve got mixed up with. One resource is an article on Narcissist Hypnosis. I don’t know if the authors mean “hypnosis” literally or figuratively (eg. their methods are like hypnosis), but boy, are they spot on. The scales fell from spouse’s eyes. The article isn’t long. It saw ir was textbook the methods used on him (it was as if the author knew his LO) and he recognized it for what it was as soon as he heard it (I read the article out loud to him). Once he saw this so simply laid out it, it hit so any chords. He recognized it as exactly what happened to him and how it had been about someone controlling him, not appreciating or valuing him. The sense of meaning he’d made up in his head, that he’d been finding so hard to let go of, fell away. There went the romance. What he had believed in was, in his words, “garbage”. And then he was free. I think the topic deserves a lot more coverage.
I had an LO years ago who actually told me he hypnotized me. And he did have me under quite the spell. Took years to get out of it.
I have to disagree to a point. Even if the LO is a narcissists (which I think that word gets way over used as a blanket word for an negative behavior in a relationship) or manipulative it is irrelevant. The LO is not to blame. If there is a current relationship within the limerence the spouse/partner is not to blame. For committed or married limerents, their behavior is on them. No one else. Demonizing a person is just an attempt for the limerent to distract his actions and sidestep the consequences. Two damn years ….. and I spoke her name in my sleep. I had to talk to my wife last night about it. Two damn years since last contact. I have maintained NC all that time. Now I had to look my wife in the eye and listen to her tell me that I mentioned her name multiple times in my sleep. My wife of 25 years. That this woman is still in my head is not her fault. It is not my wife’s fault. It is not the fault of any problems in our marriage. It is my fault. I am somehow subconsciously holding on to this woman even though through my actions I am doing everything else right. If anything blaming LO for being manipulative just sounds like an excuse for my own behavior.
This really resonates with me Adam. I’ve been down the road of trying to blame LO. The fact is he did some unethical things. Being that he was my boss and also taught my kids, he never should have given me these free, private life coaching sessions on the side. These “sessions” were more like counseling and an indoctrination into his beliefs of all you do is think to manifest what you want in life. Not a good thing to get exposed to when limerent. My faith became very shaky. We talked about deep and very personal subjects and he shared things as well. My counselor told me it is unethical for a counselor to get support from the client or divulge personal details. Another thing he did wrong. Given he was a trained counselor and teacher he knew that. So in spite of all of that, I’m married and I’m still responsible.
When he became my boss and I started to get limerent, I remember emailing him all sorts of questions. It was a rush to hear back. I will never forget when he called me and offered me “coaching.” He said husbands can’t really do this for you. They just care about what is for dinner.” My rationale mind was screaming don’t do it. You know you shouldn’t have long conversations with a guy you have a crush on. But it felt so good so I CHOSE to go against my conscience and chose what felt good. My rational self tried to get me to quit my job when he became my boss because he was so flirty. There was part of me that could see danger ahead.
Every choice I made in the LE that was wrong there was always that moment where I could have chose differently. Yes it was tough but not impossible. At the time it can feel like you have no choice but you do. I thank God I made some right choices like not going to his house when he invited me over. His wife was gone and his child had a friend over and was busy. How could I have explained that to my spouse?
So yes now I’m dealing with the guilt over all my choices and breaking the last strings of emotional attachment. During the height of the LE it was so easy to rationalize bad choices and blame the LE. I’m still in the breaking away phase from a relationship that was mostly in my mind.
Hi Beth,
I’m not an expert or shining example but I would say don’t let past choices impede your progress.
We are all human, humanity means we naturally seek connections and to be valuable and valued. We have periods of weakness.
I remember a post here some time ago when a poster had an intense LE with her therapist, and the therapist was unethical and ensured she kept coming back for therapy sessions to him. It was so challenging the imbalances of power.
Of course we can say the limerent can make the right decisions and ward off narc behaviours, but human interactions are complex and sometimes us sensitive types are just that sensitive and vulnerable.
That’s ok. That’s who we are. You were caught off guard at probably a vulnerable time.
Be kind to yourself, you are progressing so well.
Thanks so much for sharing that IMHO. I never saw that post. I’m at the end of the LE and coming out of the fog and it’s painful to look at it all. I also hope that sharing could help someone else. I’m getting out of the relapse and that feels good too. Thanks for your compassion. I always appreciate your comments!
Adam,
Do you have hulu? There’s a new documentary on it about break dancing in NYC in the early ’80s named “Breakin’ On the One.”
Are you practicing? Are you ready? We expect an era-appropriate costume for your performance. Please don’t think about doing it in modern-day skinny jeans. 🙂
@Adam,
Take the Fedora off too and wear a ball cap backwards. That should give it an 80s vibe..
MJ,
No, he needs a Run DMC track suit. Adidas shoes.
And some kind of break dancer name like Glyde, Crazy Legs or Mr. Freeze.
Also, Adam … My diet is vegan, gluten free, pastured raised and organic. Please plan the snacks you’ll be serving accordingly 🙂
i’m all for fun, however, the last couple of posts maybe should be on a new thread in the coffeehouse. As a bit out of sync on the tone of the thread. I’m really not being judgemental as I include myself in being more mindful since a frequent lwl poster here (who is really suffering) has decided to leave LWL recently due to some off-target replies to her post.
So I’m just trying to share my mindfulness on that.
MJ,
No, he needs a Run DMC track suit. Adidas shoes.
And some kind of break dancer name like Glyde, Crazy Legs or Mr. Freeze.
Also, Adam … My diet is vegan, gluten free, pastured raised and organic. Please plan the snacks you’ll be serving accordingly 🙂
@Marcia,
What do you think of an appropriate Lwl themed name? Like maybe,
Serious NC or DJ Glimmer?
MJ,
“What do you think of an appropriate Lwl themed name? Like maybe,
Serious NC or DJ Glimmer?”
LOL. Love it! DJ Glimmer spin the sounds ….