The philosophy here at living with limerence is founded on personal growth being the answer to most problems. Whatever the circumstances that have led you to limerence, the best response is to be honest about how your choices contributed to the situation, to understand what limerence is telling you about your emotional needs, and to figure out what you can do to improve your situation.
Broadly, this means having an internal locus of control, where the most practical next step to take is always to look at what you can do to make your life better. That said, there is no doubt that the behaviour of your limerent object can powerfully influence how easy it is to take action.
If you are trying to start a relationship with an LO who is indecisive or non-committal, but also very happy to enjoy some sexy fun times while you wait, then it will be much harder to decide on a purposeful direction.
Conversely, if you are trying to detach from an LO who is bad news, this will be harder if they continually try to draw you back in. The most narcissistic LOs will be accomplished at this game, having learned how best to seduce you and play on your limerent desires to keep their narcissistic supply coming.
A recent email from someone suffering through just such a scenario highlighted a device that I haven’t discussed before: gaslighting. She speculates:
People who invite limerence seem to often be the types who engage in this, either consciously or not
I think there’s truth in this. Gaslighting is indicative of the kind of manipulative character that treats others as playthings, and is likely to pull one of the biggest levers for powering limerence: uncertainty.
What is gaslighting?
The term “gaslighting” has exploded in popularity over the last decade or so.
This is a bit surprising in some ways, as the concept dates back to a 1938 play “Gas Light” in which a man psychologically abuses his wife to conceal his murderous crimes. One of his deceits is to deny that the gaslights in the house are dimming (which they do whenever he sneaks up to the abandoned apartment above theirs), driving her to doubt her own sanity.
The term is now broadly used to refer to any form of psychological manipulation that is used to make the victim doubt their perception of reality. With popularity has come misuse, however, and gaslighting is now liberally hurled around as an accusation when people simply disagree on facts or opinions – a smear not without irony, given that it is, itself, a form of gaslighting.
We’ll stick to the formal definition of deliberately manipulating someone else by denying or misrepresenting reality to emotionally or psychologically destabilise them. How might this be relevant for limerence?
I’ll tell your story
At it’s heart, gaslighting involves someone else taking over your life narrative and imposing their own version onto you. They arrogate to themselves the authority to dictate what you really experienced, and what that means about your true identity. They are defining your inner experience for you, and with such confidence and entitlement that it makes you doubt your own judgement.
At first glance that seems obviously abusive – and it clearly is, certainly framed in the way I have. But… what if you like the story they are telling?
It can be incredibly seductive to have someone come into your life and tell you a new story about yourself that is flattering. Gaslighting can be an ego boost. Say you are introverted and insecure, and a charismatic new person arrives in your life, pays you a lot of attention and tells you a pretty story.
I love that you are always on the edge of things, watching quietly. You seem really good at understanding other people.
You really think deeply about things, don’t you? I bet other people underestimate you.
It’s amazing the way you seem to see right into me. You just sort of “get me” straight away.
Having someone take a close interest in our inner lives, and then having them tell a compelling narrative that makes us feel good about ourselves, is potent stuff. It can give powerful reinforcement to the belief that they are interested in us, which can kindle the hope of romantic reciprocation and drive us towards limerence.
Feeling “seen” is emotionally nourishing. And if an LO takes the time to “see” a version of you that boosts your self-esteem a bit, then it’s even more enticing.
The director’s cut
The initial story that draws you into limerence is usually flattering, but LOs who gaslight are like a frustrated director that can’t leave their creation alone – they have to keep tinkering and revising and reissuing new versions of the narrative to perfect their creative vision.
This is when gaslighting can be used manipulatively to strengthen the attachment of a limerent, by making them doubt their memories, doubt their beliefs, and doubt their identity. Their Story Of You undergoes a narrative twist.
Shyness is a form of narcissism, you know.
I know you hate parties, but I really think you should go for once. You can’t hide from the world forever.
Why are you always so judgemental? You just sit there silently finding fault with everyone else.
This causes uncertainty. The LO who was so into you a while ago is now questioning your character. They seemed so besotted with you, but now they’ve got to know you better, they seem to be finding more and more faults. What does that mean? How can you make yourself more attractive to them? What do they really want you to be like?
Here is someone who seemed to understand you intimately and profoundly, whose attention lifted you up, but now they are telling you a story about yourself that is far less flattering. Maybe, they can now see the real you (you, know, the flawed insecure one) and don’t like it so much. They’ve seen through you. But, you are sure you can improve if you can just figure out what it is that you need to change.
You get shunted into a mental state of constant questioning and uncertainty. How do they really feel about you? Can you ever recover that initial ecstatic state when they seemed to really like you too? Maybe if you bob and weave and twist yourself elegantly enough, you can regain their approval?
That mental trap can make you dependent on a capricious LO for emotional validation. They are telling your story, and you are transfixed by it, and above all want it to have a happy ending.
Taking control of the narrative
The response to such manipulation seems obvious: take back control of your own life narrative.
That’s true. It is the purposeful solution, and it’s the best way to recover your emotional and psychological freedom. However, it is easier said than done.
There are a couple of reasons why this is so challenging. First, we all of us need feedback from other people to shape our own sense of self. I covered this before in a different context, but the idea is that we only know we are sane by learning from how other people respond to us. We depend on other people to guide our actions, to prevent ourselves from straying too far from acceptable social conduct. Sometimes, feedback from others is crucial to help us understand ourselves.
Living in a social world means responding to the cues of other people whose opinion we esteem. That’s why we are so sensitive to feedback from others. It helps us understand whether we are good company, whether our ideas are acceptable to others, whether our beliefs about ourselves are accurate. Certainly, there is a lot of variation in how sensitive we are individually to the opinions of others, but aside from total mavericks, most of us need to feel that our personal narrative is one where we are a valued and appreciated member of the tribe.
The second reason is that – rather like limerence itself – escaping from a gaslighting LO requires clear thinking at a time when your brain is scrambled by uncertainty and insecurity. The very aim of gaslighting is to destabilise your self-confidence. That means you need some sort of external template to measure the facts against.
To that end, here are a list of red flags that indicate an LO is manipulating you, rather than helping you understand yourself better:
- They transition from a positive to negative narrative about you. As outlined above, they switch from building you up to undermining you, as your relationship progresses.
- You have discordant memories of past events. You find yourself confused by their description of a event you experienced together. Their narrative of the emotional or literal truth of the event is fundamentally different from yours, making you doubt your own memory.
- They misread your motives. To go back to the example of the introverted limerent – you know you are not sitting in judgement of others. You’re just shy. When you feel misunderstood, it suggests they do not see a deeper truth, they are actually projecting their story.
- They insist they are right, and never doubt themselves. Linked to the previous two red flags – if they respond aggressively or dismissively to you questioning their narrative, they are clearly not open to reflection or self-analysis.
- They tell stories about other people too. If you notice that they are quick to attribute motives to others, or construct narratives from thin air about events you know are more nuanced, it is likely that this is a habit of theirs.
Gaslighting can be a powerful tool for cultivating limerence, and so it’s likely that the kind of people who do it will be over-represented in the population of toxic limerent objects.
As ever, the best defence against psychological manipulation is to develop a purposeful approach to life. It’s a lot harder to hoodwink someone who has a well developed sense of self, confidence in their life goals, and clarity of purpose. It’s also a lot easier to recognise Good friends who are giving you quality sanity-checking feedback when you know the kind of person you want to be.
It’s an all-purpose (snigger) protection against manipulative narcissists.
You would think there is no aspect of limerence that has not been covered here, and yet, an essential one has just come up!
I can recall being thoroughly traumatised when (upon disclosing, sort of) it turned out that “their” story had been totally different from mine – as if my whole universe had been shaken.
I’d thought the glimmer, the slowly evolving romance, their timid (a. k. a. vaguely interpretable) behavior were the purest thing ever and I just needed to be patient – they were, however, just part of a game.
I would like to add one more aspect, the way I got to understand how bitter it is to be limerent: it is always the other party’s gaslighting story that wins, never your interpretation or perspective.
Attraction? (Platonic) love? Irresistible chemistry? Loaded conversations? Glimmer? Signs of reciprocation?
You’re making those up. Nothing. Ever. Happened.
To me, the very existence of gaslighting in limerence shows how asymetrical such a relationship can get. In fact, being limerent is almost always an asymetrical, unhealthy, totally humiliating experience. Wasting our time, our precious love and, last but not least, our self respect.
Yeah, that’s a good point, J79. Flat denial is a hard story to counter. There’s not much you can say that doesn’t just come across as though you imagined it all…
DrL,
it is, I suppose, the core tragedy of being limerent: one genuinely believes that they are one of the protagonists of an extraordinary, once-in-a-lifetime romantic story and then, at a certain point, a totally different reality strikes.
Gaslighting is a cruel but highly efficient test: if LO was capable of treating me like that (yes, almost forcing me to try to prove my point, which would have been utterly ridiculous), then LO is clearly not worthy of being the centre of my universe… – says the rational part of the brain.
By that time, however, the deepest, strongest attachment had been formed which takes years to break – at the emotional level. Tragic dichotomy.
“the core tragedy of being limerent: one genuinely believes that they are one of the protagonists of an extraordinary, once-in-a-lifetime romantic story and then, at a certain point, a totally different reality strikes.”
Indeed. Absolutely convinced of it. We’ve talked here about the physical pain of limerence. When I thought of LO at times, I could feel pain in my heart as if it were breaking.
I’d despise myself for the drama but the anguish was real.
J79,
“It is, I suppose, the core tragedy of being limerent: one genuinely believes that they are one of the protagonists of an extraordinary, once-in-a-lifetime romantic story and then, at a certain point, a totally different reality strikes.”
This is so true. You think: Finally! What I have been waiting for has shown up and is reciprocating! This big, huge, sexy thing is all right in front of me! The universe is finally whole! And then you come to understand that what was life-changing for you … was like changing socks for your LO. Boy oh boy
J79
This is my experience exactly! I know he now wants to pretend nothing ever happened between us as at heart he isn’t a bad man and if he had to admit to himself that he just played with my feelings in order to get his ego boosts after he managed to get me to sit at his feet, like a dog waiting for a scrap from his table, for 6-8 months before I realised that I would get nothing from him except come-ons only to be pushed away as I moved towards him. Now the Gaslighting as he would prefer to think nothing ever happened. But it did. I’m not mad or given to hallucinations, he came on to me, I reciprocated and he kept me on the fishing hook to amuse himself. Then because I went low contact in order to go virtually NC, at first he fought it like hell and did everything he could to get me back to meeting up in gatherings, now that he knows I won’t come back, he is staying away too so he can say to himself….oh, I’m bothering her, and of course I’m such a nice person I don’t want to do that, so I’ll let her know -when I do occasionally see her- that I was never interested in her, by (1) flirting with other women right in front of her face and (2) I’ll point out that she’s older than me whenever I can (true but then I always was a few years older!) so she will get it that I could never have played with her feelings. She meant nothing to me. See, I look past her and at other women! Lovely for me to witness as you can imagine!
Am I right.? Is that what Gaslighting is?. It certainly seems to me a total denial of anything passing between us. He was always careful not to speak to me about us . Everything was under the radar, brushing off of me, constantly checking me out, longing looks. Eyes on me as my eyes were also on him. Overlaughing at my jokes. Animation as soon as he set eyes on me….
Anyway, I’m left feeling so angry, I could burst. I’d like to box the head off of him, though a part of me knows he’s just an “emotionally retarded man of 56!!!” I’ve wasted nearly 2 years of my life on a child/man.!!
“In fact, being limerent is almost always an asymetrical, unhealthy, totally humiliating experience. Wasting our time, our precious love and, last but not least, our self respect.”
Succinct and absolutely true.
I knew LO through a social media group. When I left, for the last time I knew it was because something about the whole situation was unhealthy. It was before I knew about limerence, but I knew that I had to separate myself from anything connected to LO.
Even if I didn’t have a name for it, I knew that no contact was the way to go. That’s what my brain was telling me.
Beth,
exactly. I also found this site later (in fact, 3 yrs later) than my last limerent episode, so at the time of the experience I clearly had no proper name for the part of my sanity that warned me to back off.
I remember the realization that walking away was freaking painful but staying was like, unbearable.
During the whole time, it really shocked me how pure, straightforward and almost child-like innocent my feelings were and how shallow, flirtatious and uneven the reaction was to them. And, how long I convinced myself to put up with so little.
“And, how long I convinced myself to put up with so little.”
In the midst of craving LO…I’d think “why do I need this so badly?”
I would be in the midst of no contact, which went on for months at times, and crave him.
There was probably a two-year span of time where, if I saw a text, I would hope it was him. Every single time, even when I had broken off contact and told him that we shouldn’t be in touch. I would still hope.
The addiction is real.
“During the whole time, it really shocked me how pure, straightforward and almost child-like innocent my feelings were and how shallow, flirtatious and uneven the reaction was to them. And, how long I convinced myself to put up with so little.”
Exactly the same!
J79 – I feel the same, he pretend nothing romantic was between us.
Thanks for the article. I found it to be probably the most succinct and explanatory bit of writing I’ve come across in the past couple of years. Perfectly sums up my experience and helps me feel vindicated. I think you’ve brilliantly highlighted how much our identity plays a part – how it is shaped by the LO; sadly because our own ability to sustain a healthy identity is somewhat lacking. It seems we just have to learn the hard way – repressed traumas are easy to ignore until we’re forced to look. (I’m more in the Complex PTSD camp but limerence has has plagued me for 30 years because of it – until I woke up.)
There’s a lot to this topic.
LO #4 said her ex used to gaslight her and she’s a PsyD. She also said he wasn’t some Prof. Moriarty-class evil genius. She said he was an apparently successful, charismatic, garden variety Narc who could talk a real good game. Personally, I think she subconsciously saw him for what he was but her blind spot was she never met a Narc that she didn’t think she could rehabilitate.
On the sub, we would screw with peoples’ heads for sport. It was a game and everyone knew who was in it. Some people were such easy marks that they were off limits. You also didn’t screw with your superiors and officers didn’t screw with the enlisted men. Enlisted men however could screw with officers, provided the officer let them. If they could get to the officer, they won. If the officer foiled them, he won. I won a few and I lost a few.
Gaslighting is an art form. We’d go so far as to change equipment labels and change them back, move things from one place to another and move them back, type up fake messages based off real messages and change some details. I can teach Advanced Gaslighting.
My wife is trusting and gullible. I don’t mess with her. It would be plain mean.
I saw some get gaslighted on the fly once. Over corn dogs. A group of us stopped into a fast food joint. It went something like this:
Clerk to Guy #1: Here are your corn dogs and fries.
Guy #1: I didn’t order corn dogs.
Guy #2: Yes, you did. (He hadn’t)
Guy #1: No, I didn’t. I hate corn dogs.
Guy #2: Then, why did you order them? I clearly heard you corn dogs and fries.
At this point, the rest of us could have said something but it was really interesting. I don’t know if if Guy #1 had his receipt, but if he did, he didn’t check it or ask the clerk to.
Guy #1: I DID NOT ORDER CORN DOGS. I HATE CORN DOGS!
Guy #2: YES, YOU REALLY ORDERED CORN DOGS. Just admit it and eat the damn things. The rest of us are waiting.
Guy #1 took the corn dogs and walked to a table muttering, “I did not order corn dogs.” But, he ate them.
You could see the smirk on Guy #2’s face as Guy #1 went past him.
“On the sub, we would screw with peoples’ heads for sport.”
No offense, but this article and your comment kind of made the ground beneath my feet shook. What’s the purpose for gaslighting?
Thanks Dr L for this breakdown.
To me, Gaslighting is a power play and a form of bullying. When you realize your LO is guilty of it, it sure de-romanticizes them.
Yuck.
Jaideux,
I agree.
Bullying is too nice a word. Trying to break someone by playing with their mental health isn’t clever or a mark of superiority.
Two of the most manipulative/gaslighting people I’ve ever known are, as they age, alone.
They’ve broken the trust of those around them.
Absolutely true, Jaideux. I felt so powerless, suppressed, even. Like the dominant narrative (which, of course, served LO’s purposes and convenience like preserving their reputation and the status quo) was forcefully eliminating my version of the truth, which I desperately wanted to be _our_ evolving love story — in vain.
There is an implication here that LO’s that behave this way, do so with knowing cunning and deliberate purpose. But is that really true in most cases?
I guess I like to believe that this sort of behaviour is mostly subconscious, a way of relating and meeting their own needs that has evolved through the pressures of their own difficult life experiences and innate nature. I suspect these people are very lacking in self and other awareness so do not realise the damage they do. But maybe I am just being naïve.
Allie 1,
I think you’re right. For most people, that is the case.
However, there are some people who lie and obfuscate.
I’d have important conversations with LO and he would act as if they’d never happened. This happened several times over the period of a year. He’d deny actions and statements later.
It was bewildering. I started to distrust anything that he said about people in his past, about events that happened. He’s living in a world of make-believe.
I wrestled with whether to include this issue in the article, Allie, because I agree that some of the time the “gaslighting” is actually genuine differences in how two people have remembered events. To an extent, we all of us subtly revise history to shape it to our preferred narrative. And, even more complicated, if we have come out of a period of limerence our memories can be genuinely unreliable. I don’t fully trust my own memories of my last limerence episode, as I know I wasn’t really thinking straight at the time.
I think the decisive factor is whether the LO is open to discussion. If you disagree, do they pause and question their own version of events, and negotiate and refine? Or do they just steamroller over all objections and belittle you for ever doubting them?
This comment is gaslighting!
I experience the same; my LO tried to deny his behaviour like nothing happened between us. Thank god I documented the things he said , that he attracted to me physically and emotionally, that he wants us to be together, and the way he looked at me, the way he held my hand, the way he hugged me and breath me.
Interesting article! What this says to me is to be very careful with whom we entrust our hearts. Get to know people well before fully trusting them, and be suspicious of someone that too often tells us what we want to hear… trust our early instincts.
I think developing a high level of self-awareness and self-acceptance is the best protection mechanism against these types.
I keep reminding myself not to demonize my LO’s.
Every time we met the dopamine hit narrowed down my perception and made me focus on the elements of the interaction which caused further pleasurable chemical reactions in the brain. (I needed to feed on something during the upcoming daydreaming sessions, didn’t I?)
I guess all the characteristics you have mentioned in previous comments applied to my last LO to some extent: not really self assured, not really professional (definitely should have been), not determined enough, too flattered by my admiration to refuse to get more of it.
I do not assume the gaslighting part had been previously schemed but I do want to remember that when it concluded our story, my peace of mind did not matter to LO at all; actually, it’s amazing how one’s world can be shattered with some “What do you mean exactly?” types of questions and/or no communication.
I don’t think my last LO was evil; I do think they were quite selfish, pretty cowardly, and fundamentally, after some hesitation and due consideration – – uninterested, so their reality was in fact different from mine. It all came down to gaslighting but it was probably more like attaching different amounts of significance to past events (me: 100%, LO: 0%).
Very sad, but even in that tormented state I knew what it meant: that the real life LO (unlike their idealised version in my head) was not the One. Gaslighting sort of rubbed it under my nose.
Limerence thrives in ambiguity. People like plausible deniability because it absolves them of responsibility if things don’t go their way. At some point in their lives, most people learn not to ask questions they don’t want to hear the answers to, although that life lesson appeared to be lost on LO #2. She never knew when to keep her mouth shut. It bit her in the fanny more than once.
LO #2 and I negotiated everything from when we started sleeping together, when we became exclusive and the terms under which I’d take her back (which she never accepted.) She never denied anything I said to her but she flat out dismissed it because she didn’t want to hear it. I learned to ask her very direct questions and was direct in my expectations. To her credit, every time I asked LO #2 a direct question that was important, she gave me an answer I could work with. The therapist said that I probably “frustrated the living shit out of her” [actual expression] because I wouldn’t let her off the hook when she tried to feed me BS.
In contrast, I didn’t have to negotiate anything with my wife. Once we got rolling. our relationship fell into place like dominoes.
As DrL points out, the more in tune you are with yourself and your environment, the less likely you are to be gaslighted. It just won’t work because you know what reality is.
Stick to facts. What they do and what they say are facts. You can record them. Why they say or do something and what you think it means are presumption and speculation. The more ambiguous they are, the more latitude you have with ruminating on those. The more limerent you are, the worse it is.
Don’t accept responses when you want answers. Answers close questions. All answers are responses but not all responses are answers. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response but it’s never an answer. Do what engineers call a “dimensional analysis.” If you ask someone “How long is it?” the answer will be in units of time (e.g., a movie) or length (e.g., a piece of wood.)
If you ask your LO, “Where do you see this going?” a possible response might be “I don’t know, yet.” A perfectly valid response but not an answer. Those kind of direct questions are often avoided because we know they have the potential to upset the status quo and we don’t necessarily want that. Attached limerents often don’t want that. Reality can really screw up that nice LE we have going on in our heads.
I asked LO #2 when she was moving back. She said, “I don’t think I am.” It wasn’t a direct answer but the implication was “Never,” a unit of time.
I knew there were certain questions I’d never ask LO #4 while I was married because I knew asking them would end the acquaintance immediately one way or another and those weren’t how I wanted to script an ending. There can be a fair amount of cognitive dissonance associated with trying to work around things that need to be dealt with. To end the LE without looking like a total schmuck took a lot of work.
But, it takes gaslighting off the table.
Limerent Emeritus,
I’ll remember this: “Don’t accept responses when you want answers.”
I was very fragile when my LE’s happened (concealed issues with SO).
As a common theme, each LE started with a compliment I received from the relevant future LO. What a bummer is that – just reading this statement about the beginning of my own suffering! A single compliment was enough to start me up and I continued with excessive idealization, daydreaming and storywriting in my head, I guess.
I was afraid LO’s might mess with the storyline (and rightly so), so I either never dared to ask the crucial questions, or, ironically, when I insisted on getting answers to them, all the answers were traumatic.
I’ll leave one of what I call my favourite sobering quotations here:
“Idealizaton is a veneer of pretty glitter.”
They can never come up to it (and that’s human, after all).
Beth,
Marcia,
the heartbreak, yes. Real, excruciating pain which makes you gasp for air.
It’s hard to admit it even now that I was so convinced of my version of the truth that nobody could have deterred me from finding out where we were headed with LO. I had to learn it the hard way.
What I considered to be divine and unique (our “thing”), LO thought was trivial – and acted accordingly.
In retrospect, one of the huge red flags I intentionally kept ignoring was that LO ridiculed my actions and reactions several times.
I should have known that it would leave me with a “nasty scar” (Taylor Swift: Blank Space).
I used to sometimes question my memories. But back then, I was constantly emailing a friend. I’ve kept those emails because she was really supportive as limerence grew was out of control. I looked back at those emails recently,which I wrote after having conversations with him, and it’s mostly as I recall.
No one’s memory is perfect, of course. But when I reread those emails a lot of it is as I remember it.
Beth,
Perhaps some LO’s make up their minds in the meantime…
My last LO was so indicisive, I almost felt sorry for them.
The last LE also gave me the worst scars bc this time, I really wanted to avoid the Platonic trap and make it happen (not in the vulgar sense but like, we either choose one another or we don’t).
J79,
“My last LO was so indicisive, I almost felt sorry for them.”
Not sure of your personal situation, but my LO seemed he indecisive — Was he going to make a move? Did he want more?– but I think he knew all along what he wanted. He seemed indecisive intentionally because that keep my attention going. It’s a cruel thing to do, but the only way to handle that is to make the decision for the person –and remove yourself. What else can you do?
“It’s a cruel thing to do, but the only way to handle that is to make the decision for the person –and remove yourself.”
Yes.
This was my first LE and I tried early on to create spaces many times, thinking that my feelings would fade.
Months in, after he knew I cared, we were talking and he said when he was feeling down he would tell himself: Beth cares about me.
Hearing things like that from time to time only worsened my pain.
After a year of every little thing meaning so much to me, and nothing to him, I went full NC.
I couldn’t worry about him anymore. I had to look out for myself. I was always going to want more.
Beth,
I don’t know your personal situation with your LO, but I have noticed that a lot of people like to keep their options open while also spending time with a placeholder. I have tried to do that, but I have a hard time showing interest in someone I’m only somewhat interested in. I’m kind of a black or white person — I’m interested or I’m not — and if I am interested, I see no point in exploring other options. I don’t have that kind of energy, and my ego isn’t that big. 🙂
Marcia,
Me either.
When I’m in, I’m all in. I’m willing to give something time to build but after a month, I know whether a relationship is worth continuing.
Because I was so insanely limerent it was impossible to act indecisive even if I’d tried (I mean I knew what I wanted and my thoughts were revolving around it 24/7), if that was my LO’s strategy (after a while it was really suspicious), I discovered it too late.
DrL,
I also want to express the gratitude and relief I felt when I first found this site (July 1st, 2020). I really believe naming it has helped taming it (i.e., my involuntary tendency to become limerent and to rank the limerent version of love way above any other, sane form of it).
The reason for the hypertrophy of my comments on this particular post is that, together with the comment section, it captures some of the intrinsic traits of limerence quite brilliantly: how we keep ourselves from getting to know the real person behind our fabricated LO by putting them on a pedestal.
How bluntly they tell us by using gaslighting as a tool: hey, I’m just… ordinary. Definitely not dwelling in the same heaven as you. I am not even sympathetic or caring towards your feelings – au contraire.
One day I would love to read more about fangirling (which preceded) & compulsive online stalking (which followed the gaslighting scene in my case, although I went NC right away).
J,
Compulsive online stalking happened in my case after NC. I’d check his FB every week or so. To see whether he was in a relationship, I think.
If his status changed, it would be another incentive to stop checking? For a small dopamine hit?
I deleted my FB to end that habit.
Lately, I’ve been ruminating a lot. I thought I was over a rough patch but no, not yet.
Online checking is not a surprise really. Goes hand in hand with rumination and craving LO
Another great topic, bound to generate lots of interesting discussion. 🙂
Personally, I don’t like to use the word “gaslighting” because it’s a terribly strong word, and has some very negative connotations. Which isn’t to say it doesn’t happen. I prefer to say that many LOs are probably people who aren’t particularly “straightforward” in their dealings with others, and that’s how limerence can come about. There can be all sorts of reasons for “lack of straightforwardness” – not all of them grossly ignoble or consciously deceitful.
Sometimes the problem isn’t the stories LO is telling the limerent. Sometimes, I think, the problem is the story LO is telling himself/herself. For example, if an LO has a story in his head about being “an amazing nice guy”, that narrative might make it very hard for him to accept that he’s sometimes not-so-nice or insensitive to the feelings of potential romantic partners. Unless he can let go of his “nice guy image”, he’s never going to consider feedback that doesn’t match the image.
Really, what we need in situations involving limerence, is intersubjectivity – a willingness for both parties (if safe and appropriate) to sit down and acknowledge how the other person sees the situation, especially if the two parties are seeing the situation fundamentally differently. Nobody likes to be led on. On the other hand, nobody likes to be falsely accused of leading somebody on…
I had one LO who told me he was a people-pleaser. People-pleasing was apparently the basis of all his niceness toward me. I think he was telling the truth. I don’t feel he gas-lit me at any stage. I think we’d agree on all events and conversations that happened in our interaction. The problem was more than one interpretation could genuinely be put on those events and conversations.
I.e. one could put a friendship slant on said events or a romance slant on said events. There was enough ambiguity to support both views, without either party being guilty of either “guile” or “paranoia”. Perhaps, though, if this LO had been a tiny bit more forthcoming about where his romantic allegiances lay (e.g. “I’ve met this great girl and I think I’m in love with her”), I would have congratulated him on his excellent choice and swiftly moved on. Him being upfront about his romantic feelings for someone else would have closed the door on hope for me. 😛
I actually think, in hindsight, that this LO, who was straight, was using his friendship with me as a way to AVOID too much intimacy with his future SO. (Why did he spent formal night with me? Why wasn’t he dancing with his lady? He couldn’t have found her that repulsive, surely – he eventually married her). I functioned as some kind of emotional buffer between the two of them for a while. Perhaps this is a topic for a future post – limerence caused by TRIANGULATION.
Let us also not dodge the fact that large differences in social maturity can be a factor in limerence, too. For example, a man or woman who is very socially mature can probably engage in a great deal of flirting, and think nothing of it. They may not realise, however, that if they’re flirting with someone who is significantly less socially mature, such “fun flirtation” could be mistaken for “serious romantic intent”. Is it fair to flirt with less sophisticated peers? 😛
The SO of one of my LOs was capable of this kind of “empty flirtation” and she was extremely good at it. She even flirted with me. I don’t know if she continued the habit after marriage. But she certainly bantered with plenty of males before marriage, and who’s to say such antics are inappropriate? As a still-single female, perhaps she was flirting to find out which males were interested in her. She was accessing her options, in other words, finding out what opportunities were available to her. She obviously wasn’t going to marry every guy she flirted with…
Probably the only time in an interaction where I have been somewhat gas-lit was when I was with a man whose actions didn’t match his words. With his actions, he conveyed we were hurtling toward a mutually-desired relationship at breakneck speed. With his words, he said: “I haven’t said ‘I love you’, so I don’t owe you anything. Stop reading into things. Whaddaya mean you want more or want to know where we stand? I thought this [undefined] was enjoyable for you too.”
The man whose words and actions didn’t match was one of several self-proclaimed “amazing nice guys” I’ve known in my life. And, yes, he was nice in some ways. He was polite and generous, for example. But he refused to consider how his actions might impact me. He wasn’t interested in hearing a perspective that contradicted his own. I asked him how he felt. He said he didn’t know. I knew how I felt – very early on in the exchange, I told him he gave me butterflies. He ignored my admittedly clumsy declaration of feelings, but kept pushing for a casual sexual relationship. Maybe that should have been my cue to leave? 😛
“Sometimes the problem isn’t the stories LO is telling the limerent. Sometimes, I think, the problem is the story LO is telling himself/herself. For example, if an LO has a story in his head about being “an amazing nice guy”, that narrative might make it very hard for him to accept that he’s sometimes not-so-nice or insensitive to the feelings of potential romantic partners. Unless he can let go of his “nice guy image”, he’s never going to consider feedback that doesn’t match the image.”
Holy cow did that hit me. Dr. L suggested I read this and while there have been sparse moments in mine and LO’s relationship where this has happened, it wasn’t often and especially not in the current incarnation. This has me questioning again, is it possible we ARE co-limerants? Because when we discuss events I have to carefully choose my words to describe his actions. If there is any degree of negativity pointed out about him his feelings are crushed. He’s not emotionally immature, he just cannot take an iota of feeling that I don’t see him swathed in holy light. I don’t mean he’s so vain he can’t see his faults, I mean that I can bring him to tears if I don’t fully explain in softer terms that it’s not an affront on his character but that I’m also not poo-pooing his short-comings and will continue to be honest. It’s a careful balancing act as I never want to cause him harm.
Tammy,
This is beginning to sound like a bad remake of “Gone With The Wind.” He’s definitely Ashley Wilkes. You’re Scarlett O’Hara but without the almost sociopathic charms Rhett Butler found so appealing. His wife is Melanie. So, far we’re missing Rhett. But, he was always outside this triangle so we don’t need him, anyway. So, far the plot is a loose parallel but the only real person appearing to be in character is your LO. You haven’t described his wife in much detail so she’s a wild card.
I never understood what women saw in Ashley. When I was in HS in the early 70s, GWTW was re-released in theaters. It was the first time I’d ever seen it although I knew a lot about it. My aunt was a Clark Gable nut. She said she’d seen the movie 10 times. She was married to my uncle and had a BW poster of Rhett playing poker with a perfectly formed pair of red lipstick lips on his cheek on her kitchen wall. They were hers.
We were talking about it one day in class. There was a girl who looked like Scarlett that I had a crush on. She didn’t care a squat about me but I saw us as Rhett and Scarlett. I saw us as having a similar dynamic but it never went beyond superficial and never spilled over outside of the classes we shared.
I’ll never be Rhett Butler class cool but we can all dream and he has a lot of traits I identify with. Ashley, zero. The best I can hope for is, Tom, the Yankee Captain running the jail. Competent and well-meaning but definitely not cool. I made a comment that I didn’t understand Ashely’s appeal. The girl said, “You wouldn’t.” But, she didn’t elaborate.
Back on topic…
So, what is it about Ashley that appeals to you? What is it that’s kept you in the game so long that after 3 marriages, you keep circling around each other? Ashely seemed to come around when he needed an ego boost and nothing made Scarlett happier than to give it to him. They portrayed Melanie as a dupe. His SO may not be. Is he really that sensitive that you can bring him to tears if you display too much candor?
Do you realize the power that he’s given you? Is that what this is all about, power?
Most people don’t understand the dynamics of power. You can bring him to tears that easily? If what you say is true, there’s a pretty hefty dynamic going on here that it would take a good professional to sort out. There’s a whole lot going on here.
It’s a mess.
Clip of the Day: “Gone With The Wind” (1940)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWsCtKZ2B0
Your LO isn’t Ashley, he’s worse than Ashley.
You’re not singing Dixie! It is a mess, a conflagration, a wild fire out of control. And we are southern Americans so the accents fit too. Unless we’re together there’s no chance of professional help but I think even y’all may need it after reading all of this.
I know I do give his ego a boost but enough to put himself through this this long? I’m unsure what his wife is but I do suspect she has to be ignoring a lot of signs like the amount of time he’s at work doesn’t match up to his stories, he talks in his sleep, etc. If she is, simply because she loves him, then I’ll feel even worse although I doubt I would’ve had the strength to avoid it regardless. I’ve been told by his sister and some of her co-workers that she’s very materialistic and that she is going to do whatever she has to to remain comfortable but I don’t trust that either…what if they’re trying to instigate?
Maybe I don’t realize the power he’s given me, because I feel so powerless. But yes, I can drive him to tears if I’m overly critical or even normally critical of some faulty trait. Nevertheless, I can’t find any way out other than by letting him do whatever he’s going to do and if he won’t break the cycle consider that my only option is to find out exactly who the wife is by confronting it directly with her.
I know you are at a loss, but you’ve all helped more than you can imagine. I don’t know anyone else who’s been through something similar so the input has been invaluable.
“…but I do suspect she has to be ignoring a lot of signs like the amount of time he’s at work doesn’t match up to his stories, he talks in his sleep, etc. If she is, simply because she loves him, then I’ll feel even worse although I doubt I would’ve had the strength to avoid it regardless. I’ve been told by his sister and some of her co-workers that she’s very ________ ”
Well, there you go. His sister has approved of you. Well played. There is no fighting Fate. Embrace it.
OK, Ralph. To what end is this goading aimed? What are you trying to achieve?
You’re starting to come across as a troll now.
I’ve had it but didn’t act on it. It was fucking horrible.
Hurting people who put their trust in you for years is worse. If you want to sleep with someone, split up with your partner.
If you know someone is married, don’t have sex with them and participate in hurting their spouse. Because knowingly hurting someone – even behind their back – is wrong.
Apparently this no longer applies.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/infidelity-and-limerence/
It does still apply. That is still my opinion. This also applies:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/on-infidelity-moral-philosophy-and-commenting-policy/
The issue isn’t your opinion about infidelity, it’s your choice to goad a particular poster. It’s not constructive, and it won’t make anyone’s life better.
Tammy may not be pointing a gun at the teller, but she is knowingly driving the getaway car and has concealed her identity from LO’s wife.
I am sorry I’ve initiated such a strong response in you Ralph. I don’t think it’s acceptable, I don’t think it’s okay as long as you love each other, I don’t seek approval and find validation in people that share all three of our lives. I don’t RELISH OR ENJOY that what I’m doing is creating an avalanche of pain for another.
I DO feel helpless and am trying to find a source of power I can live with to combat it while living as truthfully as I can.
I’m not hiding from the repercussions and willingly know I will have penitence for my sins.
We’re all just trying to get through life in the best way we know how. Whatever has you so skewed in your feelings I hope is fleeting and something you can address straightforwardly with the people who love you and can get you through this crisis. Obviously you were meant to see these words so you can find your own path. I pray that it’s soon and wonderfully healing for you.
And for clarification, she DID find out about me years ago. So she is aware of who I am and what I represent. She also knows her sister is law is a friend and we have many friends in common so I’m not hiding even if I wanted to. She hasn’t followed through in finding the truth of our involvement and if it’s continued, whether that’s through blind trust or intentional ignorance to keep homeostasis I don’t know. I try not to judge her impluses or lack of…because the least I can do is try to keep my judgments to myself.
“I never understood what women saw in Ashley.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
I’m not so sure that women in general see much of anything in Ashley. He’s tall. He’s blond. He represents the Old South and has good manners. That’s about it. All the women I’ve talked to love Rhett Butler (and Clark Gable). 😛
Scarlett loves Ashley, or prefers Ashley to Rhett even when Rhett’s available. This is why it’s tempting to say Scarlett is limerent for Ashley. She’s basically crazy over a guy who isn’t all that impressive or interesting. She’s crazy for the less-impressive guy overall…
But isn’t that what limerence does to us? Doesn’t it make us see ordinary mortals as god/goddesses capable of dispensing their wonderful, dopamine-producing blessings from on high? And we (or at least Scarlett) get so doped up on whatever the Ashleys of this world provide that we temporarily forget all other priorities?
Maybe Scarlett likes Ashley, not because Ashley is great, but mostly because of the way Ashley makes her feel? 🙂
It’s strange how Scarlett and Rhett are unquestionably the “star couple” in the movie. They’re the ones embracing in the promo material. They’re the romantic leads. And yet there would be no story without Ashley and Melanie. Personally, I don’t think the character of Melanie is explored in enough depth. Maybe an oversight on the part of the author in an otherwise brilliant book?
I could talk all day about GWTW. I think there’s something almost perverse about Scarlett choosing Ashley over Rhett. But that’s limerence! 😛
Rhett wasn’t part of the Ashley-Melanie-Scarlett love triangle. That’s a good observation. But I think he was part of another triangle – the Rhett-Scarlet-Ashley love triangle. The movie revolves around two overlapping love triangles I think. Sometimes I think Rhett became limerent for Scarlett (Rhett was indeed what Scarlett wanted all along), but by the time she realises it, it’s too late.
I was so dazzled by Scarlett’s looks and charisma (as played by Vivien Leigh) that I barely noticed her sociopathic side. No wonder I am prone to limerence myself, and for narcissistic types! 😛
Sammy,
“All the women I’ve talked to love Rhett Butler (and Clark Gable). 😛”
I totally agree. There’s no contest. Ashely is whiny and indecisive. You feel like you’d flick him, and he’d go all the way across the room. 🙂 Rhett Butler is the ultimate rogue, saying things like, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation. ” OMG . If someone said something like that to me, I’d do whatever he wanted. 🙂
“I was so dazzled by Scarlett’s looks and charisma (as played by Vivien Leigh) that I barely noticed her sociopathic side.”
It’s a fantastic performance. To quote Rhett Butler of Scarlett O’Hara, “You have more charm than the law allows.” What’s funny is that Vivian Leigh and Clark Gable didn’t like each other. He wanted the role of Scarlett to be played by one of his mistresses, actress Paulette Goddard. About every American actress in Hollywood was tested (even Katherine Hepburn, who would have been dreadful), but a very determined English woman made it her mission to land that role.
Sammy,
I don’t think Scarlett and Rhett would have made it long term. Scarlett would never end up with a man long term that she couldn’t control. She couldn’t really be with a man who could go toe-to-toe with her, like Rhett could. He bought her off. With Scarlett, it was always about control.
LO #2 told me to my face, “I can’t control you.” Shari Schreiber said, “The one who needs least is always the one in control.” At the end, LO #2 said, “You taught me how to stand up for myself. I’m grateful to you for that.” It was the nicest thing she ever said to me.
LO #4 said her exbf was a narc and she was a recovering codependent but I think she still was the one in control, until she wasn’t. When she stonewalled me, I went to war with her. I got the impression she wasn’t used to being stood up to. I think I asked her if she’d ever been with a man who was her equal. I think I also told her somewhere along the line that I wasn’t afraid of her.
So, Marcia, I’ll ask you the same question. Have you ever had a relationship with a man you thought was your equal? A man who could go toe-to-toe with you and wasn’t afraid of you. Would you let him?
Put the two triangles together and you get an hour-glass with Scarlett in the middle.
LE,
You missed the other key element of Rhett Butler’s character
— he’s an iconoclast. It’s not just going toe-to-toe or strength of personality. It’s having an I-don’t-give-a-crap-about-getting-kudos-at-my-job attitude. No, I don’t know anybody like that. He’s a character in a book. He’s a fantasy.
Marcia,
This one may drift a little…tl/dr
I somewhat disagree with you. I think Rhett’s much deeper than you appear to be giving him credit for. He was turned out of West Point and ostracized by his family in Charleston. That implies he probably grew inside the system and was quite familiar with it. Apparently, the book goes into a lot of detail the movie omits but I never read the book.
He was a blockade runner. But, you never hear anything about that. He’s not portrayed as any kind of sea captain or naval officer. At some point Dr. Meade alludes to the risk Rhett takes as a blockade runner but, if you study the Civil War, it wasn’t all that risky a business. The Union Navy didn’t end blockade running by sinking or capturing blockade runners, the Union choked off the blockade by capturing ports. Most blockade runners sailed circles around Union warships.
Rhett’s quite at home in polite society. He operates freely there. Except for Charles Hamilton, a notable exception, he seems pretty well respected there. Rhett may not really care about those people but he was smart enough not to damage his reputation in it and, unlike Scarlett, didn’t prey off it. Scarlett could give Machiavelli a lesson or two.
Remember that part where he actually joins the Confederate Army at the end. Rhett says, ““I’ve always had a weakness for lost causes once they’re really lost.” That’s crap. As a Confederate Army officer, he’d be treated better than a civilian blockade runner aiding the Confederacy. Practical and it looks good. Margaret Mitchell seemed to have a pretty good idea of what she was talking about.
Two of my favorite scenes from the movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S72nI4Ex_E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrhNPS4nbmQ
Is Rhett a fantasy? In detail, definitely. Those days are gone forever and never coming back. He’s certainly not a James Dean “Rebel Without A Cause” type. There seems to be a lot of those available. A lot of women seem attracted to them and want to have kids with them. Watch Jerry Springer or Maury. There are probably Edwards (Richard Gere, “Pretty Woman) out there but they’re rare. Oddballs like Edward probably even more rare.
Between Rhett and Edward, I’d rather be Rhett and I’d be chasing a Scarlett before I’d be chasing Vivian. A ditzy hooker just doesn’t hold any appeal for me. I know an excellent article about why you shouldn’t date sex workers.
I was a “fixer” but I’d pass on Vivian. I wouldn’t want to change Scarlett, I’d want to bring her into alignment with me. Rhett never could and never would. I thought if I could get LO #2 to come around and align with me, side-by-side, we’d have the world by the ass. I didn’t have Rhett Butler’s means but I thought we could have had a really good life together. Try as I did, she never came around. When I asked my wife if she wanted to take make the same journey, she said, “Ok,” and we’ve been together ever since.
Marcia,
As for, a previous comment on reputation, do you have a reputation to protect? Let’s say you meet a charismatic, wealthy, swaggering version of Walter White and he takes a shine to you. How would you feel about being some gangster’s moll? If you didn’t have a reputation before, he might provide you one. Would you take it?
Just because reputation may not super important to you, it is to some people. Here’s an article that touches on reputation. It probably relates more to Tammy. https://thoughtcatalog.com/melanie-berliet/2016/05/if-youre-going-to-hate-the-other-woman-please-hate-the-dude-too/
Another thread successfully hijacked!
LE,
I read the book.
RB is not accepted or “received” at any respectable home. He’s allowed back in, kind of, during the war because of what he does. Even then, he’s an outcast.
He’s at Twelve Oakes initially because he was meeting with Mr. Wilkes about business and Mr. W is too well-mannered to toss him out during the party.
Scarlett is much worse in the book, btw
LE,
I’m an inpatient person, so I can’t respond to everything.
I would hope not all rebellious types are on Jerry Springer. You’ve had made a similar comment on another post. It’s a bit classist.
“Let’s say you meet a charismatic, wealthy, swaggering version of Walter White and he takes a shine to you. How would you feel about being some gangster’s moll? If you didn’t have a reputation before, he might provide you one. Would you take it?”
Um …. I don’t know any Walter Whites. And I have no interest in a life of crime or looking over my shoulder for my person safety. I’m just looking for someone with a strong sense of self and a bit of a rebellious spirit. I once met a guy who told me to shut up (and I deserved it, and it was actually funny) but then went on to discuss all his accomplishments at work, which is fine, but not my thing. We all have to drink the Kool-Aid, but it isn’t necessary to enjoy it.
“Just because reputation may not super important to you, it is to some people.”
At the workplace where I met my LO, I VERY casually and very briefly dated a guy who worked closely with him. Shortly after I broke it off, he told me that a few of our other male co-workers who he knew were my friends asked him if I was gay. Was he lying? Yes. But was he spreading rumors? Maybe. But I think I surprised him with my answer: I don’t care. I mean, I didn’t care, but there was no one there who I was really interested in outside of my LO, and he wasn’t available.
Thanks, Beth,
Does the book say why Rhett was turned out of West Point and became a social outcast?
LE,
Can’t remember the WP reason. He was ostracized from his family because he was taking a carriage ride with a girl. It broke down and they got home at dark. He refused to marry her afterward.
The last straw, I think.
Great discussion on GWTW, guys! 🙂
I’m reminded that, even in the much-simplified movie version, Rhett is more than a swashbuckling pirate who makes cheeky remarks to lovesick ladies. He’s complex in his own way. I.e. maybe he didn’t personally aspire to “fit in” with society, or follow society’s rules, but he definitely wanted his young daughter with Scarlett to fit in and have a nice life. And I think that’s one of the reasons he got so angry with Scarlett toward the end – she wouldn’t tone down her outrageous behaviour for the sake of their daughter’s future.
That’s the problem with being individualistic or iconoclastic I suppose. Freedom is great. Fun is great. But at some point … we either live in society, or – much more poignantly – love someone else whose well-being depends upon at least paying lip service to society’s norms. In some ways, Scarlett was simply foolish…
Limerent Emeritus, I think you’re right – reputation matters more than any of us care to admit. Even to those of us, like myself, who are relatively free of social constraints, because I love my own company so much. What other people think of us can very much determine our opportunities in life. Most personality types can’t survive the loneliness that accompanies genuine social exclusion.
Sammy,
“He’s complex in his own way. I.e. maybe he didn’t personally aspire to “fit in” with society, or follow society’s rules, but he definitely wanted his young daughter with Scarlett to fit in and have a nice life.”
He’s kissing butt and very well aware of it. And, as you pointed out, he’s doing it for a reason. Being part of society doesn’t fulfill him as a person; it’s a means to an end. There was a conversation at my job last week about people being disappointed they didn’t get their one-year pin from the company. I kept my mouth shut, but who cares about a pin? Did you get a raise after a year? More time off? Now, Rhett Butler would have worn the pin while laughing to himself the while time.
Here’s what Wiki says about Rhett that might save some of us from wading through the novel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhett_Butler It explains a lot like how Rhett may have gotten the money to get into smuggling and blockade running. Ships and crews aren’t cheap.
Yep, Marcia, he’d have accepted it with a comment along the lines of Rhett’s comment when Scarlett donates her wedding ring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHXj3XEnEB4
According to another source, Rhett was thrown out of West Point for “drunkeness and something to do with women.” I wonder if Mitchell had Poe in mind when she characterized Rhett. https://www.usace.army.mil/About/History/Historical-Vignettes/General-History/139-Poe-and-West-Point/ She might have easily been aware of his history.
I can understand how Rhett got thrown out of WP. I wanted to be a Naval Officer but I didn’t want to go to the Naval Academy. I would have gone nuts there. Some people just aren’t cut out for it. I wanted a typical university experience. The only tangible benefits of the Academy was your service clock started sooner and they provided more benefits like health insurance. The Academy didn’t seem to produce any better officers but they produced a lot of more arrogant ones. Academy grads tended to look out for their own and looked down on officers from other commissioning sources. Part of why I didn’t stay in the Navy was because I thought they did a lot of things that were of marginal utility at best. Ritual and ceremony bore me to tears. Pageantry? I have no use for. When I see all those military personnel in ranks for something like a Presidential Inauguration, I feel sorry for them. I doubt any of the enlisted men and few of the officers want to be there. They’re not getting paid overtime for this. Parades, puh-leeze….
I’ve spent a long time within the government. They gave me pins for every milestone. I’ve never worn one and I can’t put my fingers on them. They’re in drawers somewhere. They provide me no source of pride or accomplishment. They’re worthless tokens taking up space. Maybe some day, if I can find them all, I’ll line them up, take a digital photo, save it to a disk somewhere, and pitch them. We hired a professional organizer a few years back to help us declutter. One of the things the impressed on us was did the object have an intrinsic value or it only provided the basis for a memory. If there was no intrinsic value, take a picture of it, and send it on its way.
Many people’s identity is tied to their jobs. It forms much of the basis of their self-worth. LO #2 and my wife are/were that way. If LO #2 made a mistake at work, she translated that into she was a bad nurse and, by extension, she was a bad person. If someone legitimately criticized my wife’s performance as a teacher, same thing. I didn’t get close enough to LO #4 to make that call but I think she might have been.
To them, reputation is huge. You want to screw with them? You don’t have to attack them personally, all you need to do is put a somewhat valid critique of their job performance. You plant the seed, they’ll do the rest. Workplace hazards of dating in the workplace aside, I wonder if limerence for a co-worker is harder if the LO is affecting their performance.
As far as work goes, they’re paying me to do a job. I like to think that what I do has some value to society but in the grand scheme of things, not a single person on the planet would ever say they wanted to grow up and do my job. This job pays me well enough to pursue the things in life that do give me purpose.
I’d like my co-workers to think I’m competent and respect my ability to do my job. Beyond that, I really don’t care what they think. I only socialize with one of them outside work and we’re more buddies than close friends.
Here’s the story on Rhett:
“At the end of the novel, Rhett states he is 45 in 1873, which means he was born in late 1827 or sometime in 1828. Based on that, he probably started in at West Point in 1844. West Point is a four year institution and when he served in the Confederate Army, Rhett was placed in the artillery. Due to his military knowledge, he probably finished at least 2 or more years of his education. “Everyone knew in detail how he had been expelled from West Point for drunkenness and ‘something about women’. That terrific scandal concerning the Charleston girl he had compromised and the brother he had killed was public property. . . . that his father, a charming old gentleman with an iron will and a ramrod for a backbone, had cast him out without a penny when he was twenty and even stricken his name from the family Bible. After that he had wandered to California in the gold rush of 1849 and thence to South America and Cuba, and reports of his activities were none to savory” (p.153). There seemed to be sometime from his expulsion from the academy to his expulsion from his home.” – http://pansyohara.blogspot.com/2014/05/rhett-at-west-point.html
Ok, so he had an independent streak. He’s not a saint. But, just because he was an exile from society doesn’t mean he wanted to be. He may have simply become inured to it and made the best of it. He defied the social conventions of his time and paid a steep price for it.
Since Mitchell didn’t tell us, we have no idea what he carried with him. My guess is Schreiber would have a field day with Rhett and Scarlett.
You can learn a lot from GWTW if you know what you’re looking for. It’s way more than just a “tragic” story in an elegant setting. It make you wonder what was going on in Mitchell’s head. She was one savvy woman.
I gotta get off this train.
LE,
IMO, the exact facts of Rhett’s transgressions aren’t important. It’s that there is a sense of danger with him, and that turns some women on. You get a alone in a room with him … and what’s he going to try? And it might be stuff you never heard of. 🙂 Now, with being a teacher or a nurse … that could definitely be a fulfilling job. Or even someone who accomplished a project at work. Sure. I could see feeling good about that. Finding my identity through it, no. But that’s me. But my job is a low level survival job one takes until one gets something better. Who cares about a pin? Who cares about management kudos? You just trying to get through the day.
I’m unsure why I only have the choice to respond here instead of to specific posts further down the thread. I guess it may be programmed differently than I’m accustomed to. I will see where it falls when it’s published. Nevertheless, it IS Limerant Emeritus I wanted to respond to in the offering of the article about hating the other woman, reputation and my general circumstances.
I took a few days off to recoup and regain some balance. I really examined some of the concepts and views that have been offered. I haven’t discovered anything new I haven’t explored excessively but I have restructured and given myself a bit of release after a weekend of self-abuse really. I am glad to have read that. I don’t hate him although I can see why others would because his behavior is embracing some of the worst of human practices. While I give his infidelity a pass by allowing it, encouraging and participating, I do not give him a pass on responsibility and accountability. We had a very frank discussion yesterday about that as he’s still working through his thought process about where his future lies. I told him regardless of if he carries out the abandonment of his marriage that I cannot discourage him enough from being less than forthright. He suggested, in no serious way, maybe he should make
a “pretend” gesture of contrition by living in his camper for a short time so she doesn’t feel he left her for me. I told him her lawyer will discover us because it’s barely hidden at all…people widely know of us, we’ve been seen together and as much discord as she likes to spread, I’m SURE the second he leaves even if it weren’t this situation, his sister would be whispering my name into his wife’s ear out of spite. I told him he needs be truthful with her upfront, adding in there is no fault in her character that made him do this and take the brunt of the repercussions like the person I know he is. Because he can make her mad by being honest or he can REALLY piss her off by continuing to lie and then getting caught when her lawyer intervenes. Other than with us, he’s not a vacillating indecisive weak person. We are both strong-willed leaders.
The reputation aspect does have some lingering shades of shame. What I haven’t said aloud is that while we have worked around each other in the same field (albeit I chose NOT to work in the same organization because I could see the entire city in flames if we were in each other’s direct orbit daily) is that we’re not office mates in an accounting firm or even passing couriers. Limerant Emeritus may understand more being in service, yes he was in the military but we met and have served in law enforcement most of our lives. I think maybe initially he was limerant for me because it really did go against both our belief systems; however, the pursuit did come from his end. But we resisted so hard and didn’t have any intimate sexual contact for the first 8 months we knew each other. Unfortunately, we would do extraordinarily stupid things publicly that should’ve gotten him fired but somehow we were never caught outright. Anyway, I’m getting side-tracked with memories and losing focus.
The thing is while I condone his infidelity by allowing it, I do try to encourage him to live in honesty because it does fly so soundly in the face of everything I know him to be, both from my own sadly limerant opinion to blatantly asking others who know him because I know my view is skewed. So while the article shallowly says to society to hold the cheaters accountable and stop blaming the other woman, from my perspective I try to keep myself from tipping out of the canoe and do my best to advise him to live up to his morals. If anything, I’m the more limp-wristed because I won’t put my foot down any more. I’m allowing myself to be swept into the current of wherever his will takes us.
I think we’re on a razor’s edge of a decision and it’s terrifying but I’m ready for it. As ready as I can be.
Tammy,
At this point, I’d feel remiss if I said that you couldn’t find happiness with your LO. I personally know 3 people who ended their marriages, remarried, and stayed together. One for 40 years until death, one still going after 20 years, and one still going after 10 years. I’m not sure about two of them but I know that in the 20 year, my accountant was a major factor in “wrecking” a marriage. So, it can be done. I don’t know if the dynamics of any of their relationships were like yours and you LO’s.
Trite analogy of the day: Life is like figure skating. You get points for technical merit and points for artistic impression. You can often achieve similar results by taking either the high road or the low road. People may never agree with the decision (technical merit) but they can’t criticize how you pulled it off.
As for Berliet’s article, it’s just another of the many facets of the mirrorball.
I hope things work out for everybody.
Tammy,
It’s interesting that you were in law enforcement. The first responder community is a world unto itself. There are similarities between the first responder community and the military but they’re distinctly different animals. It’s certainly not unheard of for people in the first responder community to become involved with each other. It’s rare to see a cop show where it doesn’t happen.
I was never part of the first responder community but I spent a fair amount of time on it’s fringes. One thing I observed was there were pretty distinct differences. Cops were different than firefighters, firefighters were different than EMTs. They seemed to be driven by different things. But, they all seem to like to date nurses, at least those nurses who weren’t hung up on snagging a doctor. (sweeping generalization)
One of LO #2’s nurse buddies was a cop. We socialized occasionally. I told him I hung around cops a fair amount in college because, oddly, several of them played Dungeons & Dragons and we became buddies. I also told him that most of my perception of cops came from reading Joseph Wambaugh novels. He said those images were not far off. OT: The cop I was talking to is now in prison for child porn.
What attracted you to LE? It was never a profession that held much interest for me but I remember when I was trying to get a Navy scholarship they gave me a test. The only two questions I remember almost 45 years later are “Would you rather be a fireman or postman?” (fireman) “Would you rather be a fireman or policeman?” (policeman) Honestly, I didn’t want to be either but if those were my only choices, those would be what I picked.
I know you know that the self-loathing/self-abuse is unproductive. It’s only real benefit is you can kill a lot of time on. As Elton John said in “Sad Songs (Say So Much,) “It feels so good to hurt so bad.” but Elton’s not doing you any favors.
Tammy,
One of LO #2’s nurse buddies was dating a cop.
I make a lot of mistakes posting from my cell phone.
The reason I pointed out the professions is that as former military you’d understand the dynamics better. I was drawn to law enforcement because I always wanted to help people. Started out (funny enough) in nursing and hated it. Because I’m a tiny little thing, growing up in a time when women were really just starting to get a foothold as equals, I had a bit of a temper and what’s referred to as short man’s syndrome so I was always trying to prove I was as good as them. It seemed a natural choice. Because cops CAN be such prolific philanderers, I took actual pride and pleasure that I would not date the singles or be the mistress of the married ones. It was JUST him and when they heard about us, they thought that meant I was open to adultery. Then I’d take EXTRA pleasure in putting them in their places. So for him to be the first to really actively pursue me and to get through was a significant feat in itself because it was like sport to me to dash their hopes. Because I was so aggressive and short to anger that’s one reason I never went to work at his department…and why I made the statement that I could see the city on fire. I had no qualms about asserting myself and back then he and I would have meltdowns. If he avoided me, I’d call the PD and tell the chief to tell him to meet me. Once I called him to my office and when he refused I told him he had five minutes to be at the door or I’d be at his house door in ten. He showed up, in patrol car in uniform and we proceeded to have a very public verbal altercation. I don’t know why or how we survived those early years with our temperaments and still had an ounce of love left. I don’t know how we kept our jobs either because his chief fired someone else for infidelity. That wouldn’t be okay nowadays but it was a smaller department at the time and very community-driven.
I appreciate you taking the time to state that while the chances of this kind of thing working out aren’t good, it is possible to find happiness. Things are on the most solid ground they’ve ever been at the moment but I’m trying to stay grounded. He gets upset when I make comments about waiting for him to flit the other direction again but I remind him that history doesn’t help me feel a lot of confidence.
Tammy,
Wow!
Have you ever told anyone, especially a therapist, what you’ve posted here? There’s a lot here. Between what you’ve said about your FOO and what’ve said about your relationship, you’re operating under one hell of a load. You’re obviously pretty resilient and from you said, you had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
That can serve you well.
I can’t recommend strongly enough that you find a pro to help you through this. LwL is a great place and keep on posting. I’m getting to the point where I think I need to stop responding because if I’m not over the line already, for me to continue to respond would put me over that line. I’m not a therapist and I need to stop acting like one.
I don’t think you’re going so far as to inhibit any recovery. But I do know despite my self-reliance and absurd overthinking, I DO need some help and continuing to operate stubbornly independently isn’t going to mitigate the damage because I, by the default of this situation itself, can delude myself. He keeps telling me how strong I am and that I don’t realize it. You saying it also staves my weariness a bit and gives me a bit more fight. But I know time is drawing down for his decision and the inevitable fallout whether it be from devastation again or the dissolvement of his marriage. And I am going to have to relegate some of that strength for treating myself. I’m not so vain as to think that if he lands here life going forward will be a fairy tale. I know there will be long-lasting pain from the years of learning behaviors that will inevitably be different….even though it will be in a more positive way once you teach yourself what to expect you feel that is the way it will always be. We will both have to unlearn a ton of unhealthy thought processes. And if he doesn’t come here I know this will be the last time and I’ll have to let go which seems akin to death.
Sammy,
I love this comment. So subtle, so insightful.
I also wanted to add that in my last LE, I kept finding quotes like “deep in your heart, you know what the truth is” (now it sounds ridiculous, then gave some much needed clarity). And I did: I literally grieved the possibility of the reciprocation of my feelings that night.
It filled me with some inexplicable sorrow, similar to a child’s pain who is deprived of love. (I think trauma reenactment / the infallible capability of picking the unavailable candidate are highly relevant here.)
One thing I learnt is that whenever we need quotes and hours of detective work and speculation to figure out what’s going on, it’s all lost – – it had never been mutual, and we’re so worried because deep down, we know that.
“One thing I learnt is that whenever we need quotes and hours of detective work and speculation to figure out what’s going on, it’s all lost – – it had never been mutual, and we’re so worried because deep down, we know that.”
@J79. Powerful stuff. And I agree. Anxiety is a sign something isn’t quite right. Hours of detective work = not mutual. One is lost in a fantasy relationship. I reckon an LO who is experiencing mutual limerence will at some stage … allow themselves to be “caught”! In fact, they will probably take pains to ensure that it (clear reciprocation) happens. Haha! 😛
You know, I’m starting to see the kinds of people who inspire unrequited limerence as “insincere”. I suppose if an LO is insincere to only one person, the limerent, that’s gaslighting. That’s an abusive relationship. If the LO is insincere to many people, however, including the limerent, that’s an ingrained character trait i.e. if insincerity has become that person’s modus operandi in virtually all social situations.
In the second case, the insincere person isn’t malicious, only unreliable and lacking a strong identity. I need to ask myself: “Do I want to be with a man who can be all things to all people and change course at the drop of a hat or do I want someone with solid values? Someone whose words and actions match?”
“But… what if you like the story they are telling? ”
Whoa! I somehow never made the connection that this could also be gaslighting. My most recent LO obviously didn’t do that but a past one did, and so did my husband (who still likes to tell me that I am X, Y, Z except usually now they are negative things). I agree with others that this is not intentional or malicious gaslighting but rather the other person creating a narrative in their mind of who I am and what our relationship is; it’s my choice whether to accept it but unfortunately I am very susceptible and lack my own strong narrative so when someone creates a narrative for me I fall right into it. And then if they take it away (like old LO) I’m left lost and spinning all alone somewhere in the universe, and if they shift it to be more negative (like my husband) suddenly I’m worthless and small. Not a good way to be! Thank you for another great post Dr. L.
“First, we all of us need feedback from other people to shape our own sense of self. I covered this before in a different context, but the idea is that we only know we are sane by learning from how other people respond to us. We depend on other people to guide our actions, to prevent ourselves from straying too far from acceptable social conduct. Sometimes, feedback from others is crucial to help us understand ourselves.”
This is exactly why the private forum was so helpful for me.
In a way even though my most recent LO didn’t actually do anything or make a narrative for me, in a way a similar thing happened, though it was all in my head. I realized he saw me, he noticed me, he was looking at me, and I created my own narrative through his eyes and projected it on him if that makes any sense. Why can’t I just make my own narrative instead of having to pretend that other people are making them for me…..
Ok, here is my eternal question about gaslighting: Is it still gaslighting if it’s done unconsciously, unintentionally? The gaslighting happens because the person actually believes the untruthful things they say. The effects are all the same. The damage is the same. Is it the intent of the gaslighter that creates the gaslighting, or the impact on the person being gaslighted?
“Gaslight” isn’t in any of the DSM that are used to officially diagnose and code mental illness or disorders.
But, it is in the APA’s Dictionary of Psychology:
“gaslight
vb. to manipulate another person into doubting his or her perceptions, experiences, or understanding of events. The term once referred to manipulation so extreme as to induce mental illness or to justify commitment of the gaslighted person to a psychiatric institution but is now used more generally. It is usually considered a colloquialism, though occasionally it is seen in clinical literature, referring, for example, to the manipulative tactics associated with antisocial personality disorder. —gaslighted adj. [from Gaslight, a 1938 stage play and two later film adaptations (1940, 1944) in which a wife is nearly driven to insanity by the deceptions of her husband]”- https://dictionary.apa.org/gaslight
So, the answer to your question appears to be, “Yes,” based on its contemporary use.
Just because someone isn’t acting consciously, intentionally, or out of malice doesn’t mean the behavior isn’t happening.
“Ok, here is my eternal question about gaslighting: Is it still gaslighting if it’s done unconsciously, unintentionally?”
@Blue Ivy.
That is a really great question. I’m thinking, for something to be classified as “gaslighting”, the deception has to be intentional on the part of the deceiver.
However, the tinted looking-glass of limerence makes it difficult to see things clearly sometimes…
For example, I think I’ve FELT “gaslighted” by my LOs and the people around my LOs. But I don’t think conscious deceit was necessarily involved. I think I was (a) reading into LO’s behaviour, searching for evidence of reciprocation and (b) assuming that other people do and say things for the exact same reasons I do.
In other words, I was projecting my own motivations onto a given LO, and struggling to understand why he might do something for a different reason than I would. But the end (emotional) result of both intentional deception and innocent miscommunication can be the same – which in my case is intense feelings of bitterness, betrayal, etc.
When I straight out asked one LO why he did certain things that confused me, he obliged me with answers and sometimes the explanation offered seemed not so much dishonest as stupid. (Do people, even good people, sometimes do things for stupid reasons? Apparently, yes. Apparently, people can do lovely and kind and thoughtful things – as well as hurtful things – for the daftest of reasons). 😛
Hope that helps…
Yes, it really, really hurts to realise someone you love doesn’t love you back with … quite the same degree of blind loyalty and burning enthusiasm. I find my feelings of bitterness die down, go away for a long time, and then resurface with a vengeance. I realise I harbour quite a lot of resentment toward former LOs.
“Is it the intent of the gaslighter that creates the gaslighting, or the impact on the person being gaslighted?”
Your question here raises the time-old conflict between motive and behaviour. By which criteria are we to judge ourselves and others? Can a person be guilty of a crime or a sin, for example, if there was no intention to commit a crime or a sin?
Some people would argue that ignorance of the law is no defence for wrongdoing. Actions are all that matter; intent is irrelevant. This is an extreme position and the world would be a harsh place indeed if we were punished for every accidental transgression…
Because of my nerdy personality, and the frequency with which I have been misunderstood in life, as an autistic gay man living in a neurotypical and heteronormative world, I go to the opposite extreme. I think intention is of primary importance, and behaviour secondary. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt always, because I want people to give me the benefit of the doubt always. The downside of this position is that unscrupulous people can take advantage of me. I can be played by con artists, liars, narcissists, etc. 😛
I think a reasonable person, however, would try to find the middle ground. A reasonable person would take both motive and behaviour into consideration when judging others, and try to arrive at some balanced verdict. I don’t think we can judge people purely on the impact of their behaviour. That to me is yet another form of injustice. Actually, I think it could lead to tyranny and mob rule…
Let me explain. If I judged my LO, for example, purely on the terrible impact his behaviour had on my mental health, that would mean living in a world ruled by subjectivity. Whose subjectivity, you may ask? Why, my subjectivity, of course! But why is my point of view more valid than LO’s point of view? Is it because I’m the person who talks the loudest or makes the biggest scene or has the strongest personality? Is it because I’m the person who cared the most, suffered the most, overstayed my welcome in his life when it was time to leave?
No, no, no, I say. We have to look at intention as well as impact, otherwise objectivity (and real justice) flies out the window. We end up at the mercy of the party who has the most social power (often the man in patriarchal culture) or the party willing to create the biggest stink (often the woman in the same culture).
Also, in thinking about limerence, we must never forget some personality types are simply more prone to neuroticism or mild paranoia or just good old-fashioned romanticism. 😛
You ask some really great questions!! 😛
Your question here raises the time-old conflict between motive and behaviour. By which criteria are we to judge ourselves and others? Can a person be guilty of a crime or a sin, for example, if there was no intention to commit a crime or a sin?
Some people would argue that ignorance of the law is no defence for wrongdoing. Actions are all that matter; intent is irrelevant. This is an extreme position and the world would be a harsh place indeed if we were punished for every accidental transgression…
This is a concept I have never considered. Due to the patterns of my ex-partner’s malevolent behavior I do believe there is intent to punish or make life difficult for my sons and I. However, I do also think that he firmly believes his version of reality and that he is a victim. Since he is completely lacking in empathy and therefore remorse or moral conscience, it’s hard to know whether there really was intent behind his malicious behaviours which have been pointed out to me are criminal.
You bring up a good point here. Ignorance of the law isn’t the only relevant concept though. The law generally recognizes the need for two elements in order to amount to criminal conduct: (1) actus reus; and (2) mens rea. This means there usually has to be action and intent in order to amount to a crime (“intent” can also include negligence, recklessness or carelessness). If there is no “mens rea” (“guilty mind”) is it gaslighting? The effect probably is gaslighting even if the person wasn’t consciously guilty of gaslighting, but I think that’s where there needs to be a distinction. In my opinion, the person can be a victim of gaslighting even if the person doing the gaslighting wasn’t deliberately trying to gaslight the person in question and was therefore lacking in any fault or blame.
J79
This is my experience exactly! I know he now wants to pretend nothing ever happened between us as at heart he isn’t a bad man and if he had to admit to himself that he just played with my feelings in order to get his ego boosts after he managed to get me to sit at his feet, like a dog waiting for a scrap from his table, for 6-8 months before I realised that I would get nothing from him except come-ons only to be pushed away as I moved towards him. Now the Gaslighting as he would prefer to think nothing ever happened. But it did. I’m not mad or given to hallucinations, he came on to me, I reciprocated and he kept me on the fishing hook to amuse himself. Then because I went low contact in order to go virtually NC, at first he fought it like hell and did everything he could to get me back to meeting up in gatherings, now that he knows I won’t come back, he is staying away too so he can say to himself….oh, I’m bothering her, and of course I’m such a nice person I don’t want to do that, so I’ll let her know -when I do occasionally see her- that I was never interested in her, by (1) flirting with other women right in front of her face and (2) I’ll point out that she’s older than me whenever I can (true but then I always was a few years older!) so she will get it that I could never have played with her feelings. She meant nothing to me. See, I look past her and at other women! Lovely for me to witness as you can imagine!
Am I right.? Is that what Gaslighting is?. It certainly seems to me a total denial of anything passing between us. He was always careful not to speak to me about us . Everything was under the radar, brushing off of me, constantly checking me out, longing looks. Eyes on me as my eyes were also on him. Overlaughing at my jokes. Animation as soon as he set eyes on me….
Anyway, I’m left feeling so angry, I could burst. I’d like to box the head off of him, though a part of me knows he’s just an “emotionally retarded man of 56!!!” I’ve wasted nearly 2 years of my life on a child/man.!!
Much of what you are describing sounds like the man/child has narcissistic traits, NPD or possibly another cluster B personality disorder. Take it from me, if this is the case, you need to let go. It’s been over a year since I ended a similar relationship and my sons and I still struggle. Quora and You Tube helped me understand Trauma Bonding immensely but it is still a struggle because he still has control of us psychlogically through bread crumbing and financial/economic abuse which has been completely debilitating. Worse experience of my life hands down… but I know my sons and me will survive.
“I was never interested in her, by (1) flirting with other women right in front of her face”
This is triangulation as well.
This was the situation for me. I was in a relationship, but that was the nadir of my marriage and I turned to talking to another man about multiple stressors in my life for relief. I fell into a fantasy narrative where I was finally heard and understood. I preferred to escape into this more flattering depiction of myself.
There was an inflection point, after I had come to depend on him emotionally, where I could suddenly do nothing right in his eyes. Every conversation seemed to include some sort of criticism, some hint at contempt, and when I reacted…admittedly disproportionately, I was told I needed therapy and dressed down psychologically. He knew so much about me at that point that he was armed to the teeth with the tools to do this. Initially I thought having a man ask me such personal questions about my feelings or my childhood was a precursor to some extraordinary connection like I had never experienced before.
To this day I still wonder where my perception ends and the truth begins. I know I had grown to value this man’s opinion too highly but I also have tomes of chat logs where most of this took place. In retrospect I would have never have given a “friend” who spoke to me that way a particle of thought under other circumstances.
Sometimes I even fool myself into thinking that he felt the same, and that this devaluing period was his own defense against his feelings for me. I also consider that he knew, maybe not fully, how I felt and enjoyed eliciting the reactions he did. Hurting me made him feel powerful. Many of his criticisms were directed at my desirability specifically. Like when he smoked a pack of cigarettes I kept casually in a drawer over drinks and then 3 days later told me “women who smoke aren’t marriage material”
Either way, reading this was a comfort to me and spurred an important insight. I’ve had 3 undeniable LEs in my life, and maybe two short lived ones. The LOs were different types with different stories, but they all vacillated greatly in their treatment of me. Each was able to provoke tremendous highs and lows without a second thought, either intentionally or because they were experiencing splitting internally, and I was merely collateral. My mother was personality disordered and bipolar (diagnosed) so this is what my childhood up until the age of about 6 was like.
I reconnected with this LO years after I went NC, when he was married and started a family knowing that more clear boundaries existed. Oddly enough, the romantic fantasies never came back, but those highs and lows did. We went through the same approximate cycle only this time the devaluation happened behind my back rather than to me directly. And part of me still craves that admiration I thought I was receiving in the beginning. It needn’t be romantic. If he would give me a pat on the head over anything it would make my month.