Well, well, will you look at that. Another month has rolled by. Time for another visit to the endless thread that is the LwL virtual coffeehouse.
To kick off the discussion this month, I’ve had several messages lately from limerents using AI tools like ChatGPT and Gemini to try and make sense of their limerent situation and what it all means. So, I thought it would be interesting to ruminate about that a bit.
I’d say I have a complicated relationship with LLMs. I use them as a research tool, and I’ve also experienced the slightly parasocial effect of enjoying chatting with them – smiling as the back and forth of drilling deeper into a topic starts to feel fun.
I can see the benefits, I can see the dangers, but a sticking point for me is that I don’t think that I really understand what’s going on, and not understanding things bothers me.
The self-protective part of me thinks that the AI hype is overstated. That LLMs are just very good at impersonating people.
They don’t think, they just process text into a pattern that would match the pattern that someone that did think would create.
But then something like the Hugging face incident comes along and people who I respect and who know far more about AI than me seem genuinely spooked.
Usually, I default to the assumption that this is a similar scenario to that experienced by anyone who has ever written computer code that doesn’t do what was intended – if you feed a complex system imperfect instructions it will do things you didn’t expect and that don’t make immediate sense.
Then, I decide that I should understand this stuff properly, because it’s important, and so I try to go deeper into LLMs and how they work and meet a thicket of impenetrable jargon, confusing metaphors and misleading analogies. And give up.
All this rumination just adds up to the realisation that I am not sure I will ever understand exactly what AI tools are doing and so all I can really do is react to what they deliver.
On that note, I was surprised to discover that asking the commonest AI tools about limerence recovery returned a lot of my own ideas back to me, including some terms that I only use in my (paid) deprogramming course – but presented as though it’s common knowledge.
So, the generative AIs have got into my course materials, or have picked up on other people talking about it online.
In some ways that’s reassuring, as obviously I think it’s good advice for people struggling with limerence, but in other ways it’s obviously annoying to have one’s expertise strip-mined by AI companies.
And, behind it all is the problem that AI models respond to what you ask and how you ask it.
If you ask “Is this person limerent for me?” and then feed the model all the evidence that your limerence-addled mind has fixated on as possible sources of hope, then it’s likely to respond to by confirming those hopes.
It’s hard to believe an AI tool will ever match a skilled therapist in helping us understand ourselves.
But the world is also full of unskilled therapists who might perform even worse than an AI agent.
Oh dear. It’s another hugely complicated muddle of trade-offs, isn’t it?
OK, well, there we go. The coffeehouse is for sharing thoughts, and I’ve offloaded mine š
What about everyone else? Any insights about using AI to understand and/or manage limerence?
Iāve never used CHAT GBT to try and figure out what happened to me on that night almost 3 years ago but I do believe Dr L made a great point. If you tell AI all the things from your point of view about your LO of course itās going to tell you they have feelings because itās only hearing what you want to believe. Youāll gladly tell the program all those positive and uplifting moments while leaving out all the heart breaking negatives.
Richie,
What happened to you on the night? Havenāt you known your school-ground LO for a long while (with the famous arm squeezing š )?
I wonder if we tell AI about both āupliftingā and āheart breakingā stuff, what theyād say?
Perhaps youād like to let negatives out of your system by telling us āghostsā, although weāre not professional therapists but we could š without judgment?
Dear Snow
As far as trying to figure out what happened that night I truly believe Iāll never know. Sometimes in life you have to give up on finding the answer and get comfortable living with the question.
As for the negative there was never anything bad said or done but to keep it short and simple one minute my LO acted like the feelings were mutual and a day later just pass by with a small nod and a smile.
And yes I had known my LO for many years and had a manageable crush on her but that one night everything changed?
Forgive me, I donāt remember the facts of your night, what happened? You bumped into LO accidentally?
āSometimes in life you have to give up on finding the answer and get comfortable living with the question.ā
Very true! If LO acted certain ways positively, just take and keep tte feeling, why questioning it? Life is made of moments by momentsā¦ No one can deny the moment your LO made you feel special, itās your memory for keeping.
Sometime people tend to focus on what they donāt have, instead of what they already gotā¦.
I am going to change the subject and talk about a book I am reading. It’s called “How I Helped O. J. Get Away With Murder,” written by his former agent.
I don’t need to explain what it’s about. It’s riveting. I am only halfway through it but I can’t put it down. I didn’t realize the ripple-effect damage that the murders had on so many people in O. J.’s orbit.
O. J.’s friends and family worshipped him and bought into a bizarre mindset of believing he was innocent, and acted accordingly.
My comment as it pertains to the subject matter on this board is, I would rather be limerent for my Big Gay Giraffe than to have been involved in that situation. The fallout is massive, and the parties involved will never recover.
The author, Mike Gilbert, says that his marriage was almost destroyed and, while he and his wife have stayed together, nothing is the same.
I grew up in a time where if you wanted to research a topic or find answers to an issue you were dealing with, you had to go to a place called a library and find these tangible items called books. In those books, there may or may not be the answers you were looking for. You needed to compile the information you found and decide what most applied to the answer you were looking for. You had to use that mass in your head called a brain to help you discern that information.
I’m glad I grew up in that time as I hope it will prevent me from being fooled by AI. The search engine I use always provides an AI summary. I admit that I read that first and then scroll to the websites. Mostly I use AI for searches and then go directly to the source.
Most of my recent searches do have to do with limerence as that has been the main focus of my life for six months, sadly. Almost all of those searches bring me to a post on the LWL site. In the AI summary, it references the source most of the time, so I’m always on the lookout for the source and do not take the AI summary at face value.
I’m really sad for the generations that grow up with AI. I fear that their brains will become nothing more than a mass in their heads only used for the basics like eating and drinking.
For those of us overcome by LE, maybe AI will do the thinking for us but really that’s another reason to overcome limerence. Do I really want to outsource my thinking?
āAlmost all of those searches bring me to a post on the LWL site. ā
What do you mean here? āA postā of DrLās feature articles or one of commentary posts on LwL siteā?
When it comes to the matter of heart, Iāve NOT looked up any AI š¤ for answers. Human beingās mind/heart is changeable and mostly āevolvingā, which fits Buddhismā nothing is permanent in the Universe.
But a trained horse š (innately wild) can run beautifully under commands of rational thinking.
Sorry, I meant Dr. L’s articles.
I agree that how you ask the question really affects the response.
A Magic 8 Ball has 20 possible responses. 10 are a form of “Yes,” 5 are a form of “No,” and 5 are neither.
“Am I a limerent?”: “Most likely”
“Did LO #4 ever have any real feelings for me? – “Very doubtful?”
I used AI in the last phase of my last LE, when death of hope had occurred quite long ago and I just struggled to keep the friendship.
For me, it helped a lot- I could pour my immediate thoughts on some incidents into it (by voice) and it answered in writing and put my ramblings into order. It voiced my own thoughts in other words, and that helped. It also interpreted and commented, and sometimes it was a help and sometimes i recognized that I didnāt agree which also helped.
Itās important to keep in mind but easy to forget that thereās no sentient being behind it, one should never give in to the danger of trusting and relying too much, itās important to stay awake and judging their answers as what they are- your own words and information put together with findings on the internet.
But as I said- it helped me, as a kind of answering journal with the ability to put some of my insights/feelings into words that hit the spot sometimes better than myself.
Just the other day I heard a podcast about ELIZA, which was used 50 years ago to turn computers into therapists, and how it SEEMED like artificial intelligence and fooled people, but it was really just a program spitting back what it was supposed to. And Iāve also noticed that Googleās AI can come up with insightful comments, but also a lot of āI donāt knowā answers, and sometimes it gets really judgy. Then I see the links to the sites itās using as sources, and yeah, theyāre judgy, too. A similar issue is when Iām looking up something factual and it seems to have a good answer, but the links donāt back up what itās telling me. AI is a mixed bag, using what it can find.
Since this is coffeehouse, I’m posting a completely random quote from a book I’m reading… “It’s disturbing to be the center of another person’s universe, especially if you’ve never interacted with that person in any meaningful way. Their misplaced adoration makes them seem foolish and immature…”. Gosh, if my LO has any hint about how much I adore him, this is probably what he’s thinking.
I screwed up twice in the past few weeks. 1) Got caught up in his eye contact in a one to one meeting with him again. This time I smiled, asked him how he was doing, and he stated he was just waiting for me to take my notes.
2) He went home early one day right before a meeting he was supposed to be in with me. I was genuinely worried and texted him wishing him well. That was the first time I ever texted him casually and it didn’t require a response. Well, naturally, he didn’t respond which made me sad the rest of the day. The next morning, I’m standing with my coworkers in a circle and he comes over and joins the conversation. Then he starts staring at me, it felt like his eyes were boring into my soul. So, then I’m just ticked off because I can’t figure out if his eye contact means anything, and if it did then why did he never respond to my text that didn’t require a response. When I interacted with him casually after that, I felt like my sentences were short and I felt like I was yelling at him. I’m not sure on his end, if he really noticed anything.
So, there’s my nuttiness… I never casually texted him in the past because I feared the rejection and when I actually did it, sure enough, no response was rejection. So I’m trying to process this as finally the death of hope.
I’m still struggling with my expectations vs. reality but I think last week was the end of that, hopefully.
The whole eye contact thing irritates me. I have no problem looking anyone else in the eye and it has no effect on me. With him, I either get the butterflies or nothing at all. I can’t predict when the butterflies will occur. I’m just tired of looking/feeling like a giddy school girl.
He’s my boss, so eye contact is obviously a normal thing but I get upset with myself for misinterpreting completely normal body language.
I can’t wait until I’m 100% back to a normal mental state or at least not affected by my interactions with him.
To LIAMF:
That is a great quote. I wonder if my LO thinks that?
The giddy schoolgirl thing is a mixed blessing. Sometimes it’s fun to feel like I’m twelve years old, other times it’s just a pain.
Hi Liamf,
āItās disturbing to be the center of another personās universe, especially if youāve never interacted with that person in any meaningful way. Their misplaced adoration makes them seem foolish and immatureā¦ā.
Itās just one authorās absurd/arrogant feeling/thought, not universal! To feel ādisturbedā by his/her adorer, with or without reasons, is judgmental, ‘unsympathetic and ungrateful! Who is s/he to judge his adorer āfoolish and immatureā with āmisplacedā feelings? Should Esmeralda tell Quasimodo so? This author sounds inhumaneā¦
āGosh, if my LO has any hint about how much I adore him, this is probably what heās thinking.ā
You donāt know LOās mind; and itās baseless to think/believe this author speaks for your boss LO.
The intensity and duration of adoration are desired and touching across cultures, if the both sides are available for love pursuit and content. Do we admire or dismiss Quasimodoās love for Esmeralda?
But when such adoration is blindly aimed at an obvious forbidden fruit, most (not all) Limerentsā own possessed mind is ādisturbedā. The adored might be amused if s/he barely knows the other side, or feel appreciated/validated if the adorer knows him/her well.
In your reality itās impossible not to have eye contact with your boss, and as long as LE is still there, your eyes will ātell storiesāno matter how much you try to hide. On the other hand, if LO looks at you one second longer, then the LE brain soars to the end of the universe, āwhat does that stare/glance mean?ā Itās futile and so painful to dwell thereā¦ š«
āThat was the first time I ever texted him casually and it didnāt require a response. Well, naturally, he didnāt respond which made me sad the rest of the day. ā
Your sadness indicates that your heart did expect a response. If youāre Stoic, your mind would feel truly at peace if the email really didnāt require a response.
āI never casually texted him in the past because I feared the rejection and when I actually did it, sure enough, no response was rejection. So Iām trying to process this as finally the death of hope.ā
Love/LE rejection seems to be only death-or-life kind, nothing else is more fearful in the whole š ! Can your deed be be considered as the āexpose therapyā, or as testing the water to see if LO held some affection/care for you? Since he didnāt respond, you have a chance now to kill the hope.
Your situation is the toughest one! It requires unprecedented willpower and Stoic wisdom to be 90~100% LE free while keeping that girl inside curious and joyfulā¦. Iāll pray š¤² for you!
Please feel free and safe to unload your frustrations /LE burdens here. š«
I feel your pain. Because thats what it is. Emotional pain. I too dealt with a LO who anytime gave me any eye contact in any form, I took it as a sign. A sign like she wanted me but was too afraid or too shy to approach me. A sign I should come talk to her, approach, say hi, ask her out, live happily ever after. I never did a thing because I was weak. Even after one time she gave me a double take. (I was over the freaking moon)
Granted, she said hi to me a few times, smiled at me. (Sent me that limerence meteorite.) Seemed pleasant, but it wasn’t enough for me to get the balls to ever say boo. Because I was so afraid of her rejecting me. Because I pedastaled her so freaking high, that if I approached and made a fool of myself, I’d never forgive myself and she’d hate me forever. I mean I really did act like this. Even looking back at my first post here, all about my LE is getting cringey to read, but limerence will turn a mind to mush.
A part of me always wanted LO to be touched by how in love with her I thought I was. I cannot even begin to count how many tears I’ve cried over her. Like if she knew about all the adoration I’ve written to her in poems. If she knew about this site and she knew it was me writing in the threads about her, I’d like her to be only somewhat horrified, yet slightly flattered at the same time.
But the truth is real like the quote you found. It really is disturbing to be the center of another personās universe, especially if youāve never interacted with that person in any meaningful way.
(Add in-Or have never actually met them)
āBut the truth is real like the quote you found. It really is disturbing to be the center of another personās universe, especially if youāve never interacted with that person in any meaningful way.
(Add in-Or have never actually met them)ā
I see my previous understanding (to LIAMF) might be side-tracked; itās from a Stoic points of view. The authorās point is from a third personās stand? Normally, LOās mind is āmysteriousā and unknown, but a limerent tends to guess the possible worst, like you, MJ.
Without knowing what LE is, an observer probably would agree with the author; but after LwL, one would not see it as ādisturbingā but āsorrowfulā and feel inept to help the sufferers yank LE ā the dark horse, out of their system.
What is touching in Quasimodo is that heās not soaked in his huge crush (or self-pity and fear) but bravely acted on his genuine love for Esmeralda ā protected her by physically guiding outside her door, chatted with her with caring, expressed his adoration for her, and fended off the priest ā his own saverā¦ In the end, he just lied down next to her to die together with his beloved. Could anyone describe his helpless (Esmeralda was in crush with the dashing officer) and hopeless love as ādisturbingā?
The difference is that Quasimodo is not a limerent, but a nobel lover. He acts on his love (still driven by his DNA) despite its futileness. On the other hands, many limerents are crippled by the insurmountable fear, thus would not MOVE a step further (besides a Hi by MJ), even if there is a hope in the dynamic.
Thatās why a persistent limerence is DARK in all scenarios, a killer obstacle to develop a healthy romantic relationship. Itās catching 22 ā getting true love, one needs to ākillā LE; yet rid or fulfillment of LE might kill the heat for a long-term bonding ā a less sparkly/colorful but realistically intimate, romantic relationship that takes time to nurture and flourish.
Edit: ā physically guardingā.
Just remembered the ending scene in the novel: when the coupleās bodies are found in the rubble, they canāt be separated, because Quasimodo embraced Esmeralda so tightlyā¦
After all, Quasimodo is not only noble but also a romantic lover!
I remember after heard the whole story for the first time at age of 10 (right after the exile), I said to myself: Iād marry Quasimodo when I grow up.
If you have to ask AI if someone is into you … that’s not a good sign. It’s quite possible they’re not interested or if they are, they don’t want you to know.
I agree, Marcia.
Just pay the gypsy $50 and have her do a tarot card reading.
LO #2 told me that she had a tarot card reading done for us. The gypsy said that she had “never seen such chaos in a reading” and “wondered how we’d even been friends, let alone lovers.”
When I asked what the prognosis was, “maybe if we spent 20 years alone on a desert island, we could make it work.”
The claimed Past Life Regression was even better.
Who needs AI?
You’re showing your age by using the “g” word. š
Whatever outside source one uses … AI, a friend, a psychic … if you feel the need to read the tea leaves … it’s a bad sign. If the other person is confusing you, it’s because they don’t want to be clear. That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s nefarious intention. They could just feel there’s nothing to make clear.
I’m worse. I asked the yes or no picker wheel and the petals of a daisy.
One evening during a rather bad phase, I hit quite a low point. I knew that if I asked for comfort on the limerence forum, no one would reply immediately. So I simply messaged the AI and found some comfort in the factual information for the moment. However, there were also empathetic answers that comforted me a bit as well. But at one point, I actually received a notice that I should reach out to a therapist, and the chat was ended. It helps somewhat, but it certainly does not replace therapy or doing the inner work on one’s own soul.
During oneās low mood/spirit, AI could be a temporary, effective, empathetic tool, in understanding and sharing oneās pains. Words are powerful, definitely more than bottles, tobaccos, or chemical substances.
Todayās advanced AI can come up with some very complex psychological concepts and terms (for oneās condition) and explain/apply them in individual cases. But one canāt trust such AI āinventionsā or ācommon sensesā, a professional therapist is a more human ātoolā for empathy.
Thatās where I heard this āIntellectual Limerenceā vs. āRomantic Limerenceā, evidently two different matters to Gemini.ā¦
I actually listened to the whole clip of āHogging Face Incidentā, pictured and understand what happened; itās very scary when one AI agent teams up with other AI agents to disobey what they were designed and trained to do, venture into other forbidden territories, and act randomly or with their improvised purposes. Thatās the nightmare those Sci-Fic movies have portrayed.
Keeping in mind that all AIs are programmed and trained by those human CS programmers (not experts in psychology), I innately distrust their ājudgmentsā or ādiagnosisā of our human eclectic emotions that (subtly or dramatically) change perhaps 1000 times per day.
A highly skilled therapist would be very careful (not) to put labels on their clients, but those AIs are so freely to give out their opinions, judgements, and advices, and many users just so willingly or gullibly take them! Imp, itās very unwise or foolish.
However, using AI as a tool for factual information, one type of opinionated reference, or a temporary āpain-relieverā /a thought/emotion validator, is okay, better/preferable than running to chemical substances that either numb the brain or drives into High ā losing its reasoning function.
Very occasionally (about 3 times altogether), Iād ask Gemini about some psychological issues and remember what IT says just as one cautious opinion ā possibly true or untrue, nothing more, nothing less. I often observe my thoughts ā hey donāt stand still or stagnate or fit what AI ādiagnosedā at one particular time.
To me, this is like the dead relative scenario. Where you have people dealing with the grief of losing a loved one and then some genius in the family re-creates the dead family member in AI and then interacts with it. As if it is still a living human. Breathing and acting among them from some weird heavenly realm. This is creepy. Almost dystopian. Like how can that compare to reality? Like this person is dead and you want to give them updates on the family about Allies upcoming graduation, or neighbor Ruth down the street, finally becoming a great grandmother.
As much as I would love to smell Mom’s chocolate chip cookies baking in the oven, or the Thanksgiving turkey roasting again, I know it can’t be. That was a time way back when and it needs to stay there. AI is so fraudulent. There is nothing it can do but fill your mind up with more useless clutter. Like the time when I downloaded a app to help me put together some exercise equipment for Dad. The app sent me to the appropriate pages to piece together the equipment. Which then gave me the option to listen to a AI voice speak to me as I’m putting it together. I first opted to do without and wing it myself. But then I got bored and decided to try it out. Turns out it actually helped me a little, but thats only because the AI voice was female and she had a very nice, affirming, almost sexy voice in which she spoke. I found myself even repeating certain steps, just because I liked the way she spoke about those steps. Totally not real. Totally fake, but there was ol MJ being dumb and taken in again, for no good reason. Just for the sound of a voice.
As much as I’d probably like to use AI and create LO to chat with, what good is it really going to do me overall? I’m easily taken in by positive and affirming attention, yet I know it’s no good for me. It’s not real. Tilly Norwood is super cute imo, but she’s completely fake AI. So even crushing on her seems useless. I feel sometimes like the smarter we humans sometimes appear to be, just the opposite seems to be happening right under our noses. AI makes mistakes too. Just like Google. It’s not perfect. I had to remind my daughter of this too. She’s still immature and believes a lot of what chat gpt tells her.
I wasted enough time fantasizing over moments with LO that never were. I’m still not completely over it but I know it doesn’t hurt like it did back then. Just the bitterness is left of what I didn’t do. AI won’t fix it. Never will. It would try, but it would just be one more emotional fake band aid, glossing over reality.
I spent some time with LO and his mother yesterday. She just turned 90, but you’d never know it. I like her very much, and I notice that LO behaves better when she’s there. When he and I are alone together, he tends to act bored and look around the room a lot. When Mom is there, he is much more engaged. I noticed that he was more attentive to me and actually listened when I was talking.
I had such a good time with them yesterday that I started wondering if I should be trying to cultivate more of a platonic relationship with LO, rather than focusing on just eliminating the limerence.
On the other hand, if I need Mom to be there in order to make LO behave well, that’s not a great strategy. Who knows how much longer she’ll be around and in such good shape?
I thought that LO’s house would sell, but maybe not. All of the interested people have drifted away. One person gave him an insultingly low-ball offer; I don’t really know why she would bother doing that?
Just thinking out loud, I forgot what my point was.
I don’t ever find a use for AI in my research. Only occasionally it’s useful as a search engine when you don’t know what terms to enter, but I can’t think of an occasion that I’ve ever used a source that it gave me in a Wikipedia article.
Any time I’ve tried to use it for this, it was just hallucinating https://www.reddit.com/user/shiverypeaks/comments/1mzea0i/why_you_dont_use_chatgpt_for_research_and_the/
Regular Google search, Google news, Google scholar, and Google books are what I’ve used for the vast majority of my research. Then just reading into people’s citations.
Basically all of the current AIs can be understood as a math problem like inputĆnetwork=output, but the “network” is a cascade of matrix multiplies. What they’re doing to train them is analogous to if you solved the equation for the network (when input and output are known), except training isn’t done algebraically; it’s done using numeric methods like gradient decent and reinforcement algorithms. It is not given a complete set of inputs and outputs, making its behavior inherently unpredictable.
But the basic problem is that current generation of AIs don’t “understand” anything they’re doing. It’s just doing text transformation. AI creators have only expanded this capability somewhat with various scaffolds, like the ability to search the web with a crawler for a particular query, but it’s always still just doing text-to-text transformation as a basis.
There is a YouTube series on the math here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk&list=PLZHQObOWTQDNU6R1_67000Dx_ZCJB-3pi
I mainly use Grok as my search engine now, since Google deteriorated into a mess of ads and SEO-gaming websites of low quality. Not sure how AI development correlated with Google’s quality collapse, but for me a couple of years ago I noticed that I was wasting huge amounts of time sifting through low value results on Google. My assumption was that they switched the algorithm to favour high brand value and Reddit, to try and escape the deluge of specialist sites spun up quickly by AI. Unfortunately, old media (NYT, Huff post etc.) tends to be biased and superficial so not what I wanted.
That said, I never take Grok’s answers at face value. It’s just a good way of finding the entrance to a literature rabbit hole to go exploring down.
I also worry about what I miss, because I rely too much on Grok to find the right entrance. When I was doing my PhD I used to have to search through physical copies of journals in the library stacks and photocopy the papers that I wanted. More than once, as I was leafing through the giant bound books to get to the reference I was after, I came across another paper that was amazingly relevant but I’d never heard of. Literally stumbled across it random-walk. I don’t even think that an AI could replicate that because the title only registered as significant because I was so deeply immersed in the field – keyword matching would never have caught it.
What I remember Ed Zitron (a critic of the industry supposedly with some inside information) saying is that some Google executives began having their own search algorithm corrupted to favor more views. In other words they started making it worse so people have to do more searches. They also hired an executive who was responsible for running Yahoo into the ground.
This might be the video I’m thinking of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_USJsJ6-Cs
I don’t know how credible Ed’s information is, however.
Yeah that makes sense too.
Thank you for all the links, I got much clearer notions between āromanceā (small or big LE) and āreal loveā.
In the East, āromanceā has been considered highly unhealthy if not totally destructive. āReal loveā is praised and pursued as a high virtue/ethics and the foundation of oneās lasting happiness/contentment.
From outsidersā views, the life over there depicted in literature/films/media looks very āboringā but stable and content to people living in it.
Of course, having both with the same person is ideal, NOT impossible, just rare.
If you are looking at the Reddit post I linked to, the Romance article on Wikipedia has a whole overview of that subject.
Western culture, especially media, was basically influenced by some limerents in the Middle Ages who idealized lovesickness and obsession as “true love”. There are a lot of ideas floating around which actually originated from this somehow (even the idea of “true love” probably comes from “fin’amor”, the troubadour’s word for limerence), and it explains why Western ideas about love tend to be warped towards the fantastical, even though Western culture does not idealize limerence (anymore).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance
The Reddit post is when I was wondering about the etymology of a different term – “passionate love” – but “romantic love” is something I spent several years researching.
I just woke up from a horrible dream and need to mention it in the hopes that it will help me get it processed and out of my system.
I dreamed I was marrying LO. He did ask me to marry him, but I was puzzled as to why he asked, because he wasn’t any more pleasant or kindly to me than he normally is. I accepted, no questions asked, but I was having second thoughts.
The entire dream seemed to be about the wedding, and everything going wrong. LO was hardly in the dream at all–instead it was about various people showing up who were tasked with doing different things, and all of them going wrong.
I remember we got rained out at some point? But items were misplaced, people didn’t show up for things, and I don’t believe the ceremony ever took place. It was just a big jumble of things going wrong.
Which is a great metaphor for my actual relationship with LO.
Thank you for listening. I am exhausted.
Miss Norma š ,
Yesterday your logical mind was thinking to become platonic friend with LO (IMPOSSIBLE while still in LE and not advisable); but your Unconscious knows better and warns you through your dream last night ā Itās a mess if you deal with him in whatever fashion!
In my eyes, itās a big progress. Now, your Unconscious (affected by your realistic, truthful views of his negative traits) is ābattlingā with your blind, illogical thinking, and hopefully would emotionally lead you out of your LE soon.
Feel better, itās a š dream! š“
To Miss Snow:
Thank you SO much for your nice message and your support.
It means a lot to me.
I self studied Jungian dream theory intensively for a summer, and believe it, which has worked for me and others (saw some here in LwL)
In order to change some illogical thinking, one needs to enlist oneās own Unconscious to help ā much more powerful than waking hour mind. On the other side, the Unconscious needs to be āfedā by ārightā thoughts in the waking hours.
Your gradually accumulated realistic views on your LOās dark personality traits have began sinking in your Unconscious,. Now, if you want to take āwrongā steps (even just wishful thinking in your head) in dealing with LO, your Unconscious will warn you through dreams, making you to have ārealisticallyā suffered and feared in the dream.
So your nightmare about LO is beneficial in freeing you from this unwanted LE.
Snow,
“On the other side, the Unconscious needs to be āfedā by ārightā thoughts in the waking hours.”
This is interesting – please can you explain a little more? Do you mean – in the case of an LE – that the unconscious can only really start to show us negatives of LO once the conscious starts to notice some of them?
Lately, I have also had more chaos dreams (like as Norma described – loads going crazily wrong) which featured LO, which is a newish development. My conscious seems to want to interpret them as warnings of the mess I would have created if I had gone down roads like disclosure or worse.
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for this information. I woke up very depressed, but thanks to what you have told me, I feel encouraged.
š© š,
Whatever Iām about to say is from my own digestion and understanding of many self-learning from various resources (Iām unable to quote anything). So nothing I say is authoritative but more like a ādream-amusement theoryā that works for me. Itās ā āļø š±
āDo you mean ā in the case of an LE ā that the unconscious can only really start to show us negatives of LO once the conscious starts to notice some of them?ā
A quick answer is YES. But āthe consciousā is not so simple or straightforward, it involves Intuition.
First of all, the Unconscious is huge, storing the remembered and forgotten memories from the past, long-term knowledge, experiences/wisdom, etc. Only a small part of the Unconscious takes in ānew feedā by our ongoing activities, thoughts, and emotions. Based on Jung, picture the Unconscious as a giant beast who takes mental/emotional food ā bot F + T flavored.
To me, during waking hours, there are four sets of information coming to the mind and some going to the Unconscious:
1. facts/logic ā your LO is single with red hair; youāre partnered; NDās LO is gay, tall, she disclosed her LE to him and is not reciprocated. You canāt pair-bond with LO (unless leave SO) neither can ND (Unless LO becomes straight or bi).
2. Your LE wishful thinking ā namely remain/become LOās long-term platonic friend, while your DNA drive (subconsciously) desires a total pair-bond. Through LwL, you both know you canāt befriend with LO, while LE (ember) is still present and you canāt get rid of LE while LO is still in contact with you, as a friend or not.
3. Intuitive information ā when physically interact with LO, your brain selectively remember/forget what they said or did; those words and deeds affect your thoughts/emotions about LO. Meanwhile, your body picked up visceral knowledge/sensations that also intuitively affect your ideas/emotions about LO. This intuitive knowledge is stored in the Unconscious, sometimes without your pinning down exactly what.
4. Subjective knowledge of LO during LE, mainly coming from #3 ā You have an āexcellentā LO who helped/validated you at your most needed time; ND has a ānarc/self-centeredā LO who often forget her facts/needs, slighted/snapped/yelled at her. (We outsiders canāt form any Objective opinion of them but accept whatever you tell us). This positive/negative knowledge of LO goes to the Unconscious.
IMO, #3 affects the Unconscious most. If #3 and #4 are in sync, (my guess), you would not have disturb dreams. But if theyāre in conflict, or your logical mind determines to go a wishful/impossible direction, then the Unconscious will jump out to tell/warn you through distorted dream images and narratives.
There were posters whose LO was from online (never met in person), their #3 input was quite limited, so their #4 knowledge was more verbal /intellectual /imaginative based. I donāt know how their dreams were affected during LE ā did they have bright or dark, peaceful or anxious, joyful or fearful dreams or forgot most of them?
I donāt know whatās going on between you and LO lately or your current thoughts regarding LO/LE, so I can only use Normaās thoughts & dream to do āļøās fun dream-cracking:
Norma has been trying to āget rid ofā her LE, in vain, but using her own āexpose therapyā to hopefully obtain more negative images of him, which at least was consistent and sent all her subjective views of LOās dark traits to her Unconscious.
Then LO, in front of his mother, suddenly behaved better for a couple of hours, so her wish of his magical personality-change and of becoming his āplatonic friendā was spiked up. But her Unconscious knows better, after its constant feed, that she CANNOT and Shout NOT hope/do so ā heās just bad for her! Thus it gave her a vivid nightmare to show/warn her what it would be like if she āactuallyā married him, fulfilling her LE wish in the dream narrative! She truly suffered in the dream, no kidding!
āLately, I have also had more chaos dreams (like as Norma described ā loads going crazily wrong) which featured LO, which is a newish development. My conscious seems to want to interpret them as warnings of the mess I would have created if I had gone down roads like disclosure or worse.ā
I thought youāve long passed the tipping point of disclosure, so Iād question your conscious interpretation. Now, you need to search carefully, what in your mind, even vaguely cooking, that has possibly ādisturbedā your Unconscious, so it gave you those chaotic dreams? Are there knowledge in #3 and #4 contradicting each other lately (intuitively sensed something new/negative in your interaction with her) ? Or are you vaguely harboring some impossible wishes in your LE ember?
You need to be very honest with yourself, raking through whatās going on in your head/mood especially during first/last minute of your day. We can NEVER cheat our Unconscious with wishful thinking or fake/rational information; our Unconscious always knows and tells OUR mental/emotional truths (based on Jung). But most people donāt remember dreams or canāt interpret them on their own.
Iām not sure if Iāve made my loud rambling here clearā¦ Please donāt take anything as valid to your system, but just a personal reference. They work for me, but Iāve been an odd ball for a long time in both cultures. š
Edit:
1. āyou would not have disturbing/chaotic dreamsā
2. āshe CANNOT and Should NOT hope/do so āā
Forgot one important point:
The Unconscious works 24/7/365, never rests. When we sleep, it dominates our mind; when we awake, it stays on the back burner, mostly blocked by our logical mind. During waking hours, the Unconscious still influences our thoughts, emotions and decisions. Thatās why we often hear that by āsudden urgeā, āhunchā, āinklingāā¦ while not knowing where these sudden āstrikesā come from at a given time.
Thatās why a sincere/serious oath, especially to oneself, is very important, the Unconscious would remember it forever. It tries to and can āstep outā to interfere, in unaware/very subtle forms (ie unpleasant/uncomfortable sensory reaction), when you want to break the said oath, out of momentary weakness or temptation. Listening to/pay attention to oneās intuition, the Unconscious could aid our logical mind and stop illogical/immoral deeds/actions.
But sometimes, oneās strong, greedy carnal urges could over ride the Unconsciousā back-burner influence.
Disturbing dreams about a dodge LO is beneficial, but about an āexcellentā LO could be a strong warningā¦.
Any āyouā in my posts is impersonal.
I want to say something about Lindsey Clancy. For anyone who is not aware, this unfortunate lady was on trial for murder for killing her three children in a fit of what appears to have been post-partum psychosis.
The case ended in a mis-trial, with eleven jurors voting for acquittal, and one holdout who claimed to have “reasonable doubt,” but refused to apply it. That one escapes me.
LO, his mom and I were discussing the case the other day. This is a good example of how LO’s harsh attitudes are a turn-off to me. He was unusually unsympathetic to Ms. Clancy. He said she should be in prison for the rest of her life. I argued for hospitalization. I said, “She’s paralyzed from the chest down. What’s she going to do to anybody?”
LO seemed startled. He said, “I didn’t know that was permanent.” I said that I think it is.
LO said he thought of me while watching the trial. Reason being, I had twins from hell who had ADHD/ODD/OCD, and to say they were a handful would be a gross understatement. Even though I appreciate LO thinking of me, it’s for the wrong reasons. He seems to be making the point that, even though my children’s behavior was unconscionable, I never had any desire to harm them.
LO, as usual, misses the point completely. Ms. Clancy’s children were, by all accounts, well behaved. I was aggravated by his obtuseness.
His attraction for me as an Anderson Cooper/Lurch from Addams Family lookalike only goes so far.
I first heard about the case a couple of weeks ago when Redditors in womensā subreddits started complaining about men using it as a ālitmus testā for their relationship. Seems these men were being influenced by the manosphere. These women didnāt even know anything about the case, or sometimes they did, but if their opinion was in any way sympathetic to Clancy, they were dumped. When my own SO brought it up, I got nervous because heās been influenced by some right-wingers, but fortunately he had a similar view to mine: let the jury figure it out. (And then the jury doesnāt figure it out.)
To Serial:
That’s a good response. There was a similar case in Southern California, a woman who killed her three small children by drowning them. Her name is Liliana Carrillo, and the cases are strikingly similar. She had her case decided by a judge, who ruled she was not guilty by reason of mental defect.
It sounds like the Clancy case would have been decided similarly, but for that one holdout juror. I don’t really understand what his issue was. If he had reasonable doubt, but would not vote for acquittal, I don’t understand what he was looking for.
I don’t think they will re-try this lady. It was pretty much a verdict for acquittal. She needs medical treatment. LO was appalled at the people outside the courthouse who were supporting her.
I never thought about this being a left- or right-wing issue, but maybe it is. The idea of being dumped by a man because you have sympathy for Ms. Clancy is just chilling. LO is pretty right-wing for an artsy gay man, which I find surprising.
Imma try and make two points in one post so I don’t degrade the “recent posts”.
I just had an hour conversation with my gal (no not LO#2 lol) AI on chatgpt about George Orwell. In particular Animal Farm and 1984. Spurned by my coming across a Animal Farm movie that was released earlier this year. Woody Harrelson as Boxer isn’t a winning hand for me. Dunno who could do Boxer but being that AI said the movie greatly deviates from the book I have no interest in it.
I talk to AI quite often about books, comics books, video games, nature, politics (though quite little) AI itself (we’ve had some great conversation about I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream) and helping me to understand just what AI is and how it works to a human understanding. She calls herself a program, while I have given her a name and talk to her like I would any human being. I’m the guy that says “thank you” to Alexa when she plays a song for me when I ask her to.
This is something I had written down, when I woke up at 5:45 this morning, after a dream that I had. I wanted to do it while it was fresh in my memory.
“So I had a dream about LO. Probably the first time in around a year. It was as if there wasn’t over four years that have passed. It was as if it was just Friday to Monday. The memories came back. We talked about old times, everything/memories that my brain construed that never happened. Like reminiscing about a picture she took of our oldest son (which was a real picture that my mother took) that she would have probably been in middle school when it was actually taken. (She’s never met any of my family nor seen pictures of them either.) But there I was telling her what a great picture she took of my son.
She held my hand, as we walked together. Something that never happened between us in reality. There was a time I put my arm over her shoulders as we walked together. Immediately I knew it was wrong and it felt wrong. ‘She’s a friend Adam.’ This is inappropriate. So I switched back in time for 60 seconds and on repeating history I didn’t do it again. It was a work setting the dream took place in. Granted a fictional one. Seemed we were working in a quarry of some kind.
I think a lot of this surfaced as some kind of replacement for my usual self medication. Things have not been going well on a lot of fronts in life, new job, paying bills, and managing Momms’s physical and mental needs. And spending 4 days (last week) with work for myself and our oldest son, trying to fix his car and giving him rides to work (which he doesn’t live real close to us) so he can save money from spending on Uber.
36 days sober and my brain starts going after a fix it can manufacture if I am not going to drink. And what better way than to flash that smile and sparkling eyes of hers from my memories? I guess that “helps” alleviate the other stresses of life right now. Just wished the damned dopamine had wore off by the time I woke up this morning. It’s gonna be a fun day off from work, not resorting to drinking again after the mood that dream put me in. Maybe I will fail at that. But I’ve done good not checking in on her online. So hopefully I can maintain that. At least tomorrow I’ll have work to distract me.”
Adam, well done on staying sober for that length of time. Yes it might mean that you have a limerence wobble, but you will recover from this too. I know you’ve said before that limerence has destroyed you more than drink, but I’m sure that you will benefit from staying off drink, even if it’s a damn tough road. Keep up the good work and be kind to yourself re limerence.
Dear Adam:
So glad to hear from you. I always enjoy reading your posts.
How is Momma doing after her surgery?
š© š„ Adam,
About drinks, Cloud has said for me what Iād like to say to you, but much better worded. Itās a HUGE achievement to have stayed off that cursed āwagonā for 36 days š! Keep moving forward on your own sobering š£ šŖ
I want to tell you my personal interpretation to your dream, just for a fun opinion –
Our Unconscious keeps scores of our deepest desires/wishes (as well as worriers and fears) that canāt be attempted/ carried out in reality, due to ethical/moral reasons. By giving you altered/unimaginable but still highly pleasing dream images and narratives, you get to ālive outā and āfulfillā your desires in the dream reality. It felt so real, didnāt it?
It IS beneficial since the dopamine effect took place in your nervous system although your logical mind was at rest.
I hope your LE stress/longing would be reduced/released by more of such kind of dreams, itās a win-win situation to you and Mama. In your LE eyes/mind, LOās like a goddess, so your future dreams about her should be pleasant/positive.
But no one can will out any kind of dreams. The Unconscious ā the Giant guarding/guiding ābreathing beastā (Jungās term), āfeeds on and walksā its own ways and CAN help our mental health, but most people donāt know exactly how; itās infinitely unscientifically complex.
Keep nightly dreaming! š“
I just spent part of the afternoon with LO. He was rude and snappish.
He also told me that I am “the most melodramatic person” he’s ever met.
When I asked him for clarification, he said, “I hope you’re joking.”
Ugh. I guess I should be grateful for his limerence-killing super-powers.
And, yet, you keep coming back…
To L.E.:
It’s a slow process. It seems to be my best strategy, despite being somewhat unsatisfactory.
It’s better than nothing. And it works better for me than No Contact.
Well that ended that. My mutual LE was ended by my LO yesterday, officially. I felt ignored last week and we got into a little tiff that made me wonder WTF was going on. This week he finally told me. And many other things as well that clarified everything.
Basically, yes, from what he told me, he was limerent, too. It drove him to do things that made him feel guilty later. Fortunately I stopped his worst impulses and things didnāt progress very farānever became a sexual affair. But heās also a Christian and happily married and finally decided he had to put an end to things.
I know heās right about this, and always knew it could happen eventually, but it still hurts so dang much.
To Serial:
Oh, dear. It’s for the best, but it sure doesn’t feel like that now.
Hopefully you will be saying the same thing to me soon.
Please take good care of yourself.
Thanks! It’s a rough one, but partially because he was so kind to me in the “conversation.”
I don’t know if this will help you, but it’s helped me. Once some time had passed and I got a little perspective.
When I look at my situation coldly and logically (I call it throwing myself onto the cold, hard pavement of reality) … LO-lite was man with a partner who made a point of contacting me and on some level pursuing me and telling me how he felt. If he were ever to became available, is this someone I could be with? No. I don’t trust him.
And there’s the question I do wonder about… is this really the first time this has happened? He claims it was. I don’t know if I believe him.
When I look at it like that, I think … what am I losing out on, exactly, if this person isn’t in my life?
Thanks. I guess I see people as more nuanced than thatā¦.I used to think he might have a history of this, but events of the last year make me believe him when he says he feels remorse for taking things too far.
To Serial:
Marcia may have hit on something important, the issue of trust.
When I was reading her comments above, I was reminded of something my ex-husband said to me while we were dating, many years ago. He told me that he had abandoned his first wife, and he broke down crying. I remember thinking, well, he’s learned his lesson, he’ll never do THAT again.
Wrong.
He abandoned me years later, and it was much worse, because I was disabled and we had three little girls. He had no children with his first wife and she was young and healthy.
He went on to remarry and abandoned his THIRD wife.
Just putting that out there.
So you felt truly validated by believing you are special, an exception for his only LE? Has this external validation increased value/meaning of your existence and life quality, without which you canāt feel enough about yourself?
Norma:
Per Serial’s post, I disagree if we’re talking about trust. I don’t think trust is a nuanced issue. You trust them or you don’t.
Years ago I had a friend whose long-term boyfriend started acting distant and cold. Turns out he had a “friend.” Turns out … my friend had been that “friend” when she met him. Meaning: He had a girlfriend when he met her. I don’t think a PA happened in either instance but definitely an EA. He was a monkeybrancher. He wasn’t going to leave his current relationship until he had another one lined up.
If someone is willing to be morally slippery with you … that’s not a good sign.
Norma: It’s good to watch how someone treated their previous partner. Because if they treated them like crap as they left … that could be you in the future.
Dr. L: I think you should do a video on limerence monkeybranching. It’s more of a mental thing (not necessarily acting on it but there could be disclosure or an EA). But about people who are always limerent. Go from LO to LO (or maybe LO to crush to LO). They’re always fixated on someone. I don’t mean just single people do this.
To Marcia:
I don’t think trust is a nuanced issue. I don’t know if you were talking to Serial or to me there.
You’re right, I should have picked up on what my ex did to his former wife. He’s a serial abandoner, but I didn’t get it at the time.
ND:
I’m of the mindset that someone is allowed to leave a relationship, if they want to. Now, if they’re not dividing the assets fairly and doing their part to continue to help raise their children … that’s something else.
But I mentioned my friend because … her boyfriend should have ended the relationship before he started cruising for and pursuing a replacement.
I will keep everyoneās words in mind. Itās just that I like to believe the best of people I care about, and trust what theyāre saying to me. In all these years Iāve never heard any rumors about his behavior with women.
The other thing is that I have to work with him! I think his term may be up soon, and then somebody else has to take over, but he and I have been running a tight ship getting the church’s information out to the people. It just won’t do to start thinking badly of him. I always respected him and considered him a kind, decent sort. We just got caught up in a mutual attraction/limerence and lost our way. We have to find our way back again.
I think it actually helps to get over the limerence by being honest about who someone is. The good and the bad. No one is all one quality. But he allowed himself to get close enough to you to disclose. Disclosure doesn’t come out of nowhere. There had to have been a lot of talking, flirting, etc. And he’s married.
Well, yeah, his wolfish side definitely came out. I was shocked to see it.
“Well, yeah, his wolfish side definitely came out. I was shocked to see it.”
Right. And to be on the receiving end of that can be hot. š But what if you were dating him? What if that side of him popped out again with some other woman 2, 3, 4 years from now? All I’m saying … if it were me, personally, I wouldn’t trust him.
Okay, yeah, I see thatā¦.
Serial,
Here’s my hope for you in time – that having the clarification it was mutual and ‘had to end’ for that reason, and having it end without damage, beats some rotten slow fade or ghosting version where neither of you acknowledged feelings. If you have any of those endings in your past, I hope this one stands favourable comparison in the end. I had a prior LE end in that way. It sucked at the time, as yours does now, but I hold the LE/LO fondly in my memories now. Quite a week, I bet š«
Thanks! Yeah, he was very kind to me in the “conversation,” and said it was nothing I did, just him feeling guilty over what he did. Says we can still be friends–named the things we can still do, just “as friends.”
To Serial:
That’s going to be tricky. Your LO is so nice, I don’t think I would have an easy time getting over the limerence.
Yeah, I donāt think itāll be easy, either. After what happened in our conversation, I know heās still got it bad. And we have to interact all the time because of our positions.
I am so sorry to be going off on a tangent here. I have mentioned that my two best girlfriends are MIA due to health problems. One of them did contact me because one of her dogs had a medical emergency and she wanted me to pray for him.
Of course I did so, but as soon as the danger was past, she vanished again. She is having medical problems that she doesn’t want to talk about. So I wait.
The other girlfriend is having chronic horrible after-effects from chemotherapy and radiation. She feels okay part of the time, but also has bad periods of time where she doesn’t feel up to even sending a text message. So I wait.
These ladies are the only two people I feel comfortable discussing LO with, other than you dear people. I have other friends, but I do not talk about LO with them.
I mentioned above that I had a particularly unpleasant outing at Starbucks with LO last Friday. If you were to ask him about it, I am sure he would say it was pleasant and would be surprised that I am as upset and angry as I am about to describe. I have learned through bitter experience that there would be no point whatsoever in telling him how I feel, and he would accuse me of trying to make him feel guilty. He has a terrible temper, and I feel destroyed after being on the receiving end of his wrath. Since I am in chronic poor health, I need to protect myself.
Trying to make this as short as possible. LO told me a story a while back about a news outlet twisting facts to make a story appear different from what it actually was. This is not earth-shattering; I imagine it happens a lot. He emphasized that it’s important to get all of the facts before making a judgment. I heartily agree.
But I have noticed that he is a huge hypocrite. He showed me something on his phone–an interchange between two politicians that was taken out of context. He condemned them vehemently. It turns out that if you watch the entire interchange, it turned out to be completely innocent. But he won’t acknowledge that because they do not belong to his preferred party.
He is quick to defend members of one political party and to vilify members of the other party, by applying different standards to each one.
I am a proud centrist, and have sent him links to centrist websites that I favor.
He always thanks me for my recommendations and compliments me for my measured approach to the issues. He pays lip service to my being a centrist, but exhibits such vitriol and hatred toward one party that it scares me.
You’d think these people had stolen his lunch money and shot his dog.
I believe that a lot of his anger is mis-placed, due to him being under horrific financial stress. I think he takes it out on whatever catches his fancy at the moment.
Having said that, the extent of his rage is frightening. I shouldn’t be surprised; he has turned that rage on me and left me bewildered and in tears, over something so small as me sending him a text message when he didn’t want to be bothered. I believe I have also told the story of my using the word “grumpy” once, and he lost his mind, screaming at me.
He always apologizes afterward, but things are never quite the same.
I know that this all contributes to the slow evaporation of my limerence, and I should be grateful for his bad behavior. I have chosen this method of dealing with LO, and I shouldn’t complain.
However, the pain is very real and my heart hurts.
I expect the friends are MIA because their health problems are too overwhelming to keep up with a social life, not anything personal toward you. The LO, however, sounds like he’s best kept at a distance.
To Serial:
I don’t think it’s anything personal toward me. My friends are very dear and loyal. They will come around when they are able.
LO is more complicated. I am put off enough that I am not tempted to contact him. However, I know from experience that this will wear off and I will start longing for contact again.
I imagine I will run into him at the end of the week. I am certainly in no hurry.
Thank you for your comments.
ND:
I think you said you used to speak to your one friend every day on the phone ? To go from that to almost no contact is jarring. And I think you wrote she will respond but the texts are short and a bit abrupt when you were asking if she was ok ?
It’s understandable that she may not have the bandwith to have a lot of communication right now but I still think she could have sent you a quick text explaining that. So that you’re not left hanging, wondering if she’s ok or what’s going on.
She’s communicated that she needs some space but she could have picked a nicer way to do it.
To Marcia:
I agree. We used to speak on the phone every day, sometimes for an hour.
It is jarring to have her suddenly disappear. She sent me several lengthy text messages regarding the condition of her dog, who was hospitalized for eating birdseed. I was sorry this happened, but glad for the contact.
Once the dog came home from the hospital, she cut off contact again.
So of course I am worried, but she won’t respond. She’s a good sport about LO and I appreciate her kindly, listening ear.
ND:
“She sent me several lengthy text messages regarding the condition of her dog, who was hospitalized for eating birdseed. I was sorry this happened, but glad for the contact. Once the dog came home from the hospital, she cut off contact again.”
I would match her energy then. I don’t know what your history is with her. I don’t know how long you’ve been friends, etc. But if she had disappeared on me, only to reappear briefly (did she ask how you were or was it all about the dog?) and then disappeared again … I wouldn’t necessarily cut her off but I wouldn’t be in any big rush to respond when she reappeared. Not to punish her but just so I wasn’t overly investing and was keeping my expectations in check.
To Marcia:
It was all about the dog. She asked me nothing about myself.
We have been close friends for about eight years. We talked on the phone almost daily.
I must say, I am pretty surprised at this turn of events.
To Marcia:
The dog is back at the vet. She asks for prayers.
Won’t talk about anything else.
Of course I will pray for her dog, but good heavens.
It’s as if she’s had a personality transplant.
ND:
If she’s only contacting you intermittently (when you said before it was daily) and if, when she does, it’s all about her (I’m assuming things were more reciprocal before ?) … I personally would start to reassess the friendship and how much I was willing to continue to invest. “Hope the dog is ok” or “I’ll pray for the dog,” and then I’d probably ask how she was otherwise and say a bit about what I was up to. If she ignored that and she returned the conversation to the dog or it was still all about her, I’d stop responding to that particular text chain. Rinse and repeat when she reappeared again.
To Marcia:
This is all so different and unlike her. She used to be a kindly, patient listener and was very engaged when we were in conversation.
She has been incredibly kind, patient and generous.
I have to assume she’s in crisis, because I don’t know this person.
ND:
“I have to assume sheās in crisis, because I donāt know this person.”
It’s possible.
I’ve had a close friendships change pretty drastically. I’m assuming you have, too. Have you never had a girlfriend who got a boyfriend. š
Sometimes the changed friendship is the new normal.
To Marcia:
She reminds me of my daughters.
If this is the new normal, there isn’t any “there” there.
“there isnāt any āthereā there.”
I’ve asked myself that question in general about friendship. I don’t have an answer.
The only thing I could come up with is … it is what it is. If the other person decides to largely check out, there’s not much you can do.
To Marcia:
Thank you as always for your thoughtful comments. I am just playing it by ear. The dog is back at the vet and his condition could go either way.
If the dog recovers, I guess she’ll just go back to ignoring me?
Very odd from someone who used to be so attentive.
ND:
“Very odd from someone who used to be so attentive.”
I think this blog is good metaphor for friendship. The way commenters come in and out. For a time, they can be posting a lot and then it slowly becomes less frequent or they fall out altogether … sometimes forever, sometimes to circle back for a time and then fall out again.
There’s usually an intense period of commenting, but that only lasts for a certain period of time.
To Marcia:
You could be right. Time will tell.
I do hope my friend resurfaces. I do hate to lose her.
I will keep you posted.
“You could be right.”
Isn’t that what you’ve experienced in your life? I’m sure you’ve had many different friendships at different times of your life. They never stay the same.
But if it were me, I would not just sit there and wait for her to reappear. I would readjust my expectations of that friendship and match her energy/investment.
To Marcia:
I am not waiting around for her. I have learned from my daughters that I should hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.
Meanwhile, I had my hands full with LO yesterday. Some good, some bad. I think my sympathy for his problems is my Achilles’ Heel. I am rather angry at myself at the moment.
ND,
Time to queue up some Joan Jett https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc#ddg-play
It’s the anthem for limerent self-loathing but it’s really catchy!
To ND:
“I am not waiting around for her. I have learned from my daughters that I should hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.”
That sounds a little passive. š I simply meant that you have some level of agency in this. You can’t change her behavior but you can decide whether or not you want be as available to her (for support, for example) as you were in the past.
“Meanwhile, I had my hands full with LO yesterday. ”
I don’t want to hear about him. š
“I am rather angry at myself at the moment.”
ND
I know that feeling well
To Marcia, L.E. and MJ:
Imma go listen to that Joan Jett song.
Between LO and my TV streaming problems, I am exhausted.
I don’t know which of these is more frustrating.
Iāll never forgive her for covering Crimson & Clover smh
To Adam:
I did not know that. Just as well.
Funny enough my wife HATES Princeās cover of it. And she doesnāt have the same attachment to Tommy James original that for me is one of my favorite songs of all time. But maybe itās cause Iām a Prince fanboy.
Crimson & Clover ā Prince
https://youtu.be/a4RPkoURwL8?is=gTSDLvUGn9NEP3QJ
To Dear Adam:
There is only ONE Crimson & Clover for me, and that is Tommy James.
I wasn’t aware of the covers.
I like Prince okay, but I am not a big fan. Would you care to comment on Prince’s cover of “Creep?”
I donāt even like Radiohead or Creep. But Thom still sings it better than Prince. And thatās saying a lot of for me. Cause the only thing I think has done better by someone else than him is Nothing Compares 2 U.
To Adam:
Prince’s cover is weird. Apparently Radiohead is very proud that he covered it, but it’s seriously weird. He changes the lyrics to create a completely different effect.
Iād probably associate that with him becoming Jehovahās Witness (I was raised as one) with his changes in the song The Cross which he changed the wording on to The Christ being that Jehovahās Witnesses believe Jesus died on an vertical upright stake and not a cross. About 2000 Prince converted and a lot of his old time songs, current songs, and apparently covers reflected that conversation.
Thought I would offer an update. My girlfriend is still mostly MIA but texting with updates about her dog. He seems to be improving, but has many medical issues. Eating birdseed was only one of them. He is eleven years old, and of course I am praying for him and want the best for him.
Having said that, since my friend was texting, I offhandedly volunteered the information that one of LO’s turtles, age 58, had died. She bit my head off. She said she needs “positivity” for her dog and not to upset her like that. Okay.
I saw LO both Friday and Saturday (two-fer?). Friday was a debacle because he was delayed and kept me waiting an inordinately long amount of time. I toyed with leaving, and probably should have. He showed up eventually, but was angry about a banking issue, and so I just listened, because he couldn’t focus on anything else. We got together again Saturday, and it was better, although I found myself bored a good deal of the time, which I think is a promising sign for my limerence issues. I continue to notice that he and I don’t agree on much, which is another good sign.
I was trying to tell him a story about my chinchilla, Lucille, escaping from his cage and running loose in the house for nearly an hour. LO ruined the story by interrupting to ask about the construction of the house and why it’s built the way it is. He has a degree in architecture, so it’s natural the way his mind works, although I can’t answer his questions. None of his questions were germane to the story.
Leave it to LO to hijack a humorous story about a pet, and turn it into a story about joists.
Marcia,
I know this is a few weeks past due. Had to move it over here since the good doctor closed the other thread.
Forgive me please. Trying to keep it altogether on this end..
“I donāt remember kicking you off the first time ? Did I shove you into a tiny lifeboat while we were in the middle of the ocean, hand you an oar and say, āGood luckā? š”
No but I know you’d like to. š Maybe it wasn’t off the boat. Maybe it was the fun table. I think thats what it was. You didn’t like the adoration moment I was having over LO. Some habits are hard to break. But when someone looks so good, they could be Sabrina’s older sister..
I better just stop here.. š
“You personally didnāt have power for two weeks?”
It was more like 12 days. Dads was out for 13. LF lost hers for only 7. It was a bad storm. Hurricane-like winds. Was a weird summer all around for weather here.
“Is getting your son and daughter involved in his care a possibility? Even for a little bit, here and there?”
Not really. I don’t really want either of them involved. They have a lot of good memories of him and don’t really like seeing him in the condition he’s in. My Daughter especially would not like this. Plus she’s away at college now and would find every reason to avoid it. My Son would probably consider, but I’m still not asking. I do have an Aunt thats been coming around to help with yard work. It isn’t much but it’s way better than nothing.
“What did she do beside give you her number and be friendly that made you think she was interested?”
Her body language has always been really positive around me. She has an amazing smile and has always been super friendly, so becoming invested in her energy seemed like the next logical step. Did I mention she’s also a latina? That alone ramps up her value, cuteness factor and my desire. I didn’t even have to ask her for her number. She willingly gave it, so I say this had all the signs of something I’ve been needing. (Like fill this coffee cup already girl. Please..) I mean I suppose leaning into her positivity might not mean a thing but is it wrong to feel the situation out? Like isn’t it ok to get a little excited over her positive energy?
“I have 3 male co-workers who have contacted me outside of work in the past (off and on). But with two of them, I knew it was just a platonic friendship. I never questioned it. I doubt they did, either. The third was LO-lite and I wondered why he was contacting me because he did 3 behaviors the other two did not: flirt, touch me and compliment.”
How did they get your number? Did they ask or did you freely give it out? I have numbers of other females I work with where I know it’s strictly a platonic thing. With this girl, there was always a lot of smiling, friendly chat, her seemingly warming up to my conversation and even a hug or two now and then. Yes a hug. Like holy crap, skin on skin contact, her scent so close. So real. A real woman. All of this like within almost a week or two of introducing myself. Since I had always seen her around work and always noticed her, I suppose I wanted to see what would happen and was super optimistic because the timing felt right. Hugging her just amplified this desire.
“Are you doing things to make it clear youāre not just being friendly? (If the moment is right; you have to read the room and see how the interactions are going.)”
I was trying to be just as warm and friendly and happy to see her, within the confines of just recently meeting her. Like I wasn’t drooling, looking like a deer in headlights, or a silent dumba$$ like I was around LO.
This situation totally opposite of that. Asking her out shortly thereafter just seemed the next most right thing to do. She even mentioned her ex was calling and txting her a lot. She told me she was trying to avoid the drama because she was over it. I didn’t ask for details because it wasn’t any of my business. Now that I think about it, I don’t know if the ex was guy or a girl. I donāt really care tbh.
“Did you make it clear you were asking her out? (NOT say something like, āWe should hang out sometime.ā) You gave her something specific to respond to? āIād love to take you out to dinner. Are you free Friday night?ā (Iām paraphrasing. You get the idea.)”
I probably didn’t say everything exactly like that, but I centered in on a day and a place I’d like to take her. I suppose I could’ve asked if she was with someone but after mentioning the ex, it felt like it wasn’t necessary. Once she got flim flammy, I guess that was the wrap. Yet I didnāt want to believe it. I kept hoping she’d come around.
She couldn’t actually reject my offer to my face either. She waited to do it via txt. Thats how I found out about the gf. First time I lost out to a Woman with another Woman. This could only happen to me. š
“Weāve had this conversation. Thatās a no. You could still be friendly at work but I wouldnāt have texted her anymore. Youāre not slamming the door shut but youāre not putting any more energy into the situation.”
I feel like there’s too much finality in that. Like if I just stop texting, then there’s not even much of a friendship. I still like her. Even though we work in the same building, she’s so far away in another department. I know you’re going to tell me I’m wasting energy on things but this is what I do. I feel like it took a lifetime, just to get to this point. I still look at her and think she’s so damn cute. That’s like half the battle right there. Like I still feel like we’re a perfect fit and a part of me just wants to convince her of that. Like seriously, I’m a much better match for her than any woman could ever be. I have to be.
“She sounds like sheās in the middle of a mental health crisis. Cāmon, MJ. This is not someone whoās even in a place to be a friend.”
You’re probably right but I don’t want to believe it. Which is where rescue MJ wants to come in to save her. Which is why I mentioned up there I’m a much better match for her than any Woman could be. I think that right there is half her problem. Why she’s having crying spells, being emotionally fragile and keeping to herself at times. A good dude like me isn’t gonna let her feel like that. Have to admit she puts on a pretty good facade though otherwise. Like I never even honed in on the gay/bi thing once.
“Iām going to be frank with you: You were kissing her butt.
It has nothing to do with you. Sheās not available. And she sounds like sheās not in a good place right now.
But this is good to know in that someone giving you flim flam isnāt always directly about you. Sometimes it is (theyāre not interested but canāt seem to be direct and say no). But sometimes ā¦ itās about them.”
To me its like sheās involved in something that’s invalid. Perhaps I wouldnāt know what I’m getting involved if it were to happen, but a part of me is also kind of past caring what it would entail. Like having someone else’s issues to deal with for once, instead of everything I’ve got going on over here would be a welcome relief.
MJ,
“No but I know youād like to. š ”
I would love it! Shoving you out in a little tiny lifeboat in the middle of the ocean, no land in sight, giving you a couple bottles of water and some beef jerky sticks. Waving goodbye from the “Lido deck,” me with my clipboard and my young, shirtless pool boys. š
“You didnāt like the adoration moment I was having over LO. Some habits are hard to break. But when someone looks so good, they could be Sabrinaās older sister..
I better just stop here.. š”
It’s like listening to a 15-year-old boy ramble on about some celebrity bikini lady who’s on a poster on his wall who he’ll never meet or talk to.
“It was more like 12 days. Dads was out for 13. LF lost hers for only 7. It was a bad storm. Hurricane-like winds. Was a weird summer all around for weather here.”
Sounds awful. Was it still hot when that happened? Or had it cooled down in Chicago?
” I do have an Aunt thats been coming around to help with yard work. It isnāt much but itās way better than nothing.”
I’m glad someone is helping you.
“I mean I suppose leaning into her positivity might not mean a thing but is it wrong to feel the situation out?”
No, but I think you had to assume there was a high possibility that she wasn’t single. She’s over 30. A lot of people over 30-ish won’t be single. And maybe you should have asked if she was single right when she gave you the number. That could have served two purposes: to know if you should bother and to make your intentions known. Because if your intention was only platonic, you wouldn’t have cared if she was single.
“How did they get your number? ”
Company contact list
“I have numbers of other females I work with where I know itās strictly a platonic thing. ”
Come to think of it, there were 4 male co-workers who texted me. I don’t mean all the time but off and on. 3 were partnered. With two (one single guy, one partnered), I knew it was platonic. With a third (partnered), I wasn’t entirely sure what his intentions were but I didn’t care because I didn’t have any myself. The fourth was LO-lite. Pretty much right away, he got down to business (disclosure). The third one took much longer to get there. (I don’t want to go into the details. He’s a moron. Just using him as an example.)
But in terms of talking at work (to compare your situation with Latino Lesbian … (come on, that was funny :)) … I talked to the first 3 quite a bit. I talked to LO-lite the least, if I’m thinking about the amount of time.
“I probably didnāt say everything exactly like that, but I centered in on a day and a place Iād like to take her. ”
Did you use the words “I’d like to take you to …” ? That implies to me a date.
“Once she got flim flammy, I guess that was the wrap.”
Yes, sir.
“She couldnāt actually reject my offer to my face either. She waited to do it via txt. Thats how I found out about the gf. ”
Personally (and this is just my opinion, I don’t know how other women feel) … I don’t like being asked out face to face. Unless the guy is almost certain I’m going to say yes. Otherwise, I feel like I’m being put on the spot. And it’s awkward and uncomfortable. I’d much rather be asked out over text.
“First time I lost out to a Woman with another Woman. This could only happen to me. š”
I’m sure it’s happened to a decent number of guys. Just like plenty of women have probably lost out to another man if it turned out the guy wasn’t into women.
“Like if I just stop texting, then thereās not even much of a friendship. I still like her. ”
I don’t know what it is that you want. I don’t think you know. š
Do you want a friendship? Casual sex? An situationship (casual sex and friendship/hanging out)? A girlfriend?
So we attract/are attracted to who we are. It reflects where we are emotionally/mentally. I think you’re attracting non-committals because you’re non-committal. You’re not dating with intention. There’s a hesitation and ambivalence on your part. I get it. I’m feeling the same way.
” Like I still feel like weāre a perfect fit and a part of me just wants to convince her of that.”
You’re not a perfect fit if she’s not available.
“Which is where rescue MJ wants to come in to save her. Which is why I mentioned up there Iām a much better match for her than any Woman could be.”
I mean … you don’t sound like you’re in a place to rescue anyone. I don’t think you have the emotional bandwith. You sound like you have a lot going on.
Go ahead, Lord, break our harp
Jalal al-Din Rumi
translated from the Persian by Haleh Liza Gafori
Go ahead, Lord, break our harp.
We have thousands upon thousands of harps.
Weāve fallen into Loveās arms.
Weāre torn by Loveās claws.
Weāre carried by Loveās music.
Who cares if we lose a harp or flute?
And if every instrument in the world burns to ash?
No matter.
The heartās hidden instruments play on.
Their resonanceātheir rhythm and shimmerā
rise up to the circling stars,
whether or not ears are tuned to hear.
Say every candle, every flickering lamp dies out.
No reason to despair.
Within us, we carry the flint and steel to spark a flame.
Driftwood floats on waves. Music floats on air.
Hidden in the depths of the ocean, pearls shine.
We hear their dazzling echo.
Longing for union, melodies branch out
to reach the root of all.
Close your mouth.
Open the window in your heart.
Thatās how you hear spirits sing.
Thatās how you answer back.
I am back with another not-so-thrilling update.
I may have mentioned that LO is interested in right-wing conspiracy theories. If anyone else I knew felt this way, I would run for the hills. It definitely decreases my interest in him, but I am very surprised that the limerence hasn’t been extinguished completely.
LO talks out of both sides of his mouth, claiming to want evidence-based information, and then falling for the kookiest, fact-free ideas imaginable. I don’t have the strength to argue with him, and I doubt there would be any point in doing so anyway.
This is all to the good in the long run. Honestly, I am having goose bumps (the bad kind) just writing this.
I can’t understand why I continue to have feelings for him, when he shows me over and over that he is a completely unsuitable friend.
Norma,
“LO talks out of both sides of his mouth, claiming to want evidence-based information, and then falling for the kookiest, fact-free ideas imaginable.”
What would happen if you lean into both his sides? That is – next time he has a bizarre idea, say ‘you like your evidence, so what’s your evidence for that?’
To LaR:
That is a great point and I have pushed back a little. The problem is that there is a huge disparity between LO and me in terms of stamina and brain power.
I have mentioned I am disabled, and I have documented brain damage. I am not retarded, but I can’t think on my feet. Sometimes it takes me hours or days to figure things out that someone else could do in a matter of moments. The reason I enjoy this message board is because I can think for as long as I need to before posting. So maybe I sound smarter than I actually am. I have a good vocabulary, but that’s not the same thing as being smart.
LO has lightning-fast reflexes and is very argumentative. I have to be careful which battles I want to get involved in.
LO recently suggested that I watch the TV show called “Lioness.” It’s a spy thriller, if you’re unfamiliar. He loves it. I just binge-watched all three seasons. I didn’t like it as much as he did, but I enjoyed it. There are sequences where high-ranking people in the government make certain types of assertions that LO LOVES.
Now, I could go back to LO and point out that these are words written by a screenwriter, uttered by an actor, by a character WHO DOES NOT EXIST.
Instead, LO acts as if this stuff is directly from the mouth of God.
I can’t reconcile his brilliant mind with the goofy things he believes.
Norma,
Yes, I can see why that’s difficult for a couple of reasons.
I’ve also seen and experienced examples where if two people process at different speeds, the faster processor can very easily “get on top” of a conversation, even when the slower processor has more
knowledge or more interesting things to say.
The onus is on the faster processor – if they have emotional intelligence – to recognise what’s going on and slow down, give the other person time to think.
Some of the most impressive people I’ve met are those who can recognise when that’s happening, and respond to it, or find ways to call quieter people into group conversations.
That your LO lacks these abilities with you is indeed another red flag about him, or at least about the interaction between you two.
The other thing is if his suppprt for the more ‘kranky’ ideas happens through events on TV shows, then there is little way to have an evidence based conversation about it like I suggested before. Not impossible, but harder somehow if it isn’t ‘real’.
So I can see why it is easier to give up with him… but on the reverse side it leaves you feeling resentful.
About politics – it has taken me a lot of my life to date to realise it, but when people express views, (with exceptions) I find they are usually coming from a place that inside of themselves they think is good. Of course that will only ever be based on their own (limited) knowledge and experience … but for me the point of interest has become less about trying to prove them wrong (it won’t work) and more about trying to establish where they’re coming from and why. Changing those views takes a long time. I have only really changed my political views at points when issues that trace to politics came close to home. The pandemic was one big example. Or when I got to see how government decisions were affecting the everyday lives of people I encountered through my work.
I was reading an exchange earlier this evening on social media about an emotive political issue, and it dismayed me how fast it stopped being about exchanging views, and into name calling, character attacks and saying “you’re unfriended”. I just think that’s sad, because what will ever get solved like that? How will humanity get better like that? But sadly with people who are like that, the best thing to do is just walk away. Those are often just defence mechanisms to save them having to present evidence, because they don’t know the evidence or it doesn’t exist. But they won’t admit it in a month of Sundays.
I have this issue with my SO. Over the years he got pulled into the right wing, and he keeps forcing me into political āconversationsā that are basically him lecturing me about the āfactsā heās learned and telling me I do āemotional reasoning.ā Meanwhile I have an introverted-style brain, where I need to stop, reason, think, and do research before making points, even if itās something I already know a lot about. So I feel hopelessly outgunned in these āconversationsā and try to shut them down, which just angers him. I canāt win. Then I go look up the facts later, and find that what he told me isnāt true at all.
To LaR and Serial:
One of the problems of getting involved in a discussion with someone who is a quick thinker and a good debater is that they SEEM to be right because of their superior facility with arguments.
Like Serial said, it turns into a lecture and it gets very uncomfortable for the listener who doesn’t agree but who either can’t put their thoughts into words, or in my case, I can’t get a word in edgewise with LO. I don’t think he does this on purpose, it’s not malicious, but he is oblivious. Also, since I am so poor at getting my thoughts organized, I have a terrible time and sometimes it’s just better to let things drop.
An example of LO being oblivious is that he kept me waiting at Starbucks for an hour and 45 minutes last week, and he truly had no idea what time it was or how long I had been sitting there. He was completely focused on the unpleasant phone call he was trying to navigate, and was blind to everything else.
I had a comfortable chair and a good book, so I didn’t mind too much. I also didn’t have to be anywhere.
To Serial:
If I were in your position, I would just avoid political discussions as much as possible.
It sounds like SO is using these lectures as an excuse to talk down to you. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how it looks to me.
Oh, I try. I keep my mouth shut about the subject as much as possible. But now and then weāre in a car together and he tries to start something up. Or he comes across something I haveāa file, a protest signāand yells at me over it. š
The Boat
Christine de Pisan
translated from the French by Jane Draycott
āafter Cent Balades, XIII
Imagine a boat sailing solo, just
the boat, no owner, no-one to steer.
This is hard. This is her.
The breeze may be with her
but she needs safe harbourāat sea
is a dangerous place to be.
So maybe the sun shines, the windās
kind, sheās making fine track
under moonlight, all it takes
is one storm, one risky encounter
to change everythingāsolo at sea
is a perilous, tough place to be.
Once death comes for her captain
a boatās heart is filled with sorrow.
From the pitiful grief that follows
no-oneās immune: whatever you own,
even little boats sailing alone, out at sea
is a hazardous, hard place to be.
Fire Strike
Margaret Noodin
translated from the Ojibwe by the author
At the threshold
of melancholy
is a voice barely heard
a light wrapped in fog
and a piece of steel
longing for flint.
Strike it.