For a while now I’ve been talking about a new workshop I’m building, specifically designed to help deal with one of the worst problems caused by limerence: obsessive thought loops.
Obsessive thought loops are a huge problem. To judge from the number of people who contact me for support, they are the most distressing symptom of limerence.
When I ran a survey on how common limerence is, a third of all the people responding had experienced limerence that caused so much emotional distress that it was hard to enjoy life.
And it’s no wonder:
- Constant intrusive thoughts that make it impossible to concentrate on other tasks
- Lying awake, unable to sleep, as memories and images of LO cycle on repeat
- Feeling like you’re at war with your own mind
- Exhausted and wrung out, but unable to get relief
- Compulsive urges and intense cravings that are hard to resist
- Everything reminds you of them, so there’s no escape
Weirdly, though, the advice about how to cope with this state can be surprisingly cold-hearted.
You’ve just put them on a pedestal. Get to know them as a person.
S/he’s just not into you. Get over it.
You just need to distract yourself. Try a new hobby.
Plenty more fish in the sea. Find someone else.
Dude, it’s time to move on.
Even beyond such superficial advice; actual, practical help is also difficult to find.
Often therapists and counsellors will focus on understanding the root causes of your psychological vulnerability – issues like attachment style, childhood bonding, recent stress or grief that could have been a trigger.
I’m not knocking that – obviously it’s helpful – but it doesn’t actually change the immediate issue.
You’re trapped in a mental loop that can feel like torture.
So, that’s what this workshop is all about.
I’ve sifted through the literature on how to manage the intrusive thoughts of behavioural addictions, how they develop, and how they end up reinforcing the fixation.
From that evidence, and from testing with limerent clients, I’ve built a strategy for how to disrupt obsessive romantic thought loops.
It’s focused on practical steps that you can take.
Mental exercises that disrupt obsessive thought loops. Ways to decrease the intensity of cravings, without having to go no contact or give up all hope.
It has one clear goal: to help you break free of obsessive rumination about a limerent object, without withdrawal pain.
Importantly, it’s not just a lecture. It’s not just learning, it’s all about what you can do.
So, if you can’t stop thinking about someone you can’t be with, think the workshop sounds like exactly you need, and want to know more, sign up for the waitlist below!
We’re a couple of weeks away from launch, so updates will be coming soon.
p.s. There’ll also be some bonuses for early bird sign ups, so keep an eye out for those…
Join the waitlist
I did just want to make the comment that the useless advice comments are not completely useless.
The first one–“get to know him as a person”– is helping me.
Despite LO’s pleasing Anderson Cooper/Lurch appearance, he is a sarcastic, rage-aholic man who is furious about many things which he has mostly brought onto himself.
Once I come face-to-face with the ugly parts of his personality, it’s not so easy to fantasize about my handsome Prince Lurch coming to save me.
My LO told me to “focus on your own life,” “be kinder to yourself,” “walk in nature,” “chat with friends,” and “cats and dogs.”
I don’t know if she’ll be able to understand what I meant by *subconscious* later. I really hope she can 🙂
I’m about halfway out of this feeling. I did realize she isn’t inherently greater. My failed attempt to stop thinking about her might be due to inertia; it might be that kind of romantic feeling where she’s the only one I can ever imagine being with; it might be an unwillingness to believe that the experience was just self-deception. I hope it means something.
Did your LO give you those ideas/suggestions to break your “obsessive thoughts loops” about Her? Did/does she guess/know you are in LE with her? Or you disclosed to her?
What do you mean “by ‘subconscious’ later”? 🤔
It sounds like you’re available for her, is she unattached and reciprocal?
She gave me those suggestions after I told her I kept thinking about it and finally realized it was limerence. She probably thinks I’m just hung up on it. I disclosed it to her because it’s been 10 months with no end in sight, and now I desperately need to focus on my studies.
Later, after she replied, I explained how I see this ‘psychological phenomenon’: “It’s like something in my subconscious that can’t be fully controlled.”
My LO is a lesbian. How I wish I could be a lesbian too. She seemed interested in me, but because of my own insecurity and inexperience, I pretended not to see her in a ridiculous way and left. After avoiding her for a long time, I realized I couldn’t forget her—and I can never forgive myself for that.🙃
Limerence for a “wrong” gendered LO is really tough, and tougher with a rejection after one discloses it.
If you told your LO about the notion of limerence, she could understand it and wouldn’t think you’re “ridiculous”. Some young people’s mind is super fast and quite adaptable.
I heard there is a gender fluidity in Z-generation, your LO’s sexuality might not have fully settled yet, if she’s shown interests in you and said “men with femininity” is attractive to her. But this possibility might keep an uncertainty in your LE, making it hard to remove it.
At age of 21, falling in lust/crush/LE (not love yet) with a stranger is instinctually reasonable, one doesn’t need to know anything realistic about LO, just a glimpse could set off the gigantic Glimmer. This first “love” has biological/magical meanings for the infatuated; such a LE could last from months to decades even if the limerent has moved on with marriage and family.
Is your LO out of your sight, or still reachable? What if she’s an unknown bi to herself? Do you have a vague ambition to “alter” her current identity? — that would be an unbeatable validation to any type of insecurity…
Now, what’s your goal here in LwL (beyond the school works)?
If your insecurity is caused by this first LE, then it can go away once the LE is gone, either positively (reciprocated) or negatively (removed through LwL).
If your insecurity existed before LE, then the LO, even if becoming your SO, won’t be able to move it for you. You still have to dig out that insecurity root and eradicate it by YOURSELF or with therapy; otherwise you’d just fall in a new LE one after another, even if you become experienced in dating.
Young as you are, I’m not sure you want to “suffer” a serial LEs down the road. LE can be very painful, mentally as well as physically.
To TT-Two
Yes, I never imagined it would be like this. Everything that happened—every step was wrong in exactly the right way.
She’s very gentle, so I guess she’ll try to understand. Being someone else’s LO would be pleasant. As for the pressure, I later added that what I’m infatuated with is the fantasy in my mind, so I hope there won’t be.
I still hold out hope for this (or poison?). Last year I was a senior and she was a freshman; I guess there might be room to figure yourself out at that age. But I can only wait and try to look elsewhere—don’t look into the pit.😖
I hope it is reasonable—it’s so strange. Written descriptions can’t make me understand myself. A back with little information: when I see someone who might be her, I try to identify them and then find it’s not her, but I can recognize her almost at a glance. Before I became aware of limerence, this experience made me decide that I’d either be with someone I “like” or not date at all, and then I’d know whether she is unique.
Another strange thing: I can imagine what kind of body I’d like, but hers isn’t it. Before I saw her, I couldn’t imagine going crazy over a back, and her face is quite lovely and unique. Romantic and sexual orientations don’t seem to align; maybe it’s just an independent glimmer. I don’t know the reason.
I switched to another campus in the same city. It’s convenient for commuting, but I won’t see her. Next year I might go to another city (at least I can be with friends). There is an “ambition”, but I can’t bother her. I’ve decided to wait until after she graduates to see if things change.
I’m interested in this psychological phenomenon—the experience, interesting biological facts, and similar people—maybe out of curiosity.
To ❄
The most immediate feeling is that she is much better than me in every way—age/personality/major/academics. Another reason is that I couldn’t imagine building a romantic relationship; I could only imagine myself as a follower.
I am love-starved, have no opinions of my own, and may also be prone to low self-esteem and some other minor problems. I only realized in my sophomore year that this wasn’t innate; it comes from long-term domestic violence. But I hate my personality only because of my poor life planning, not because of daily interactions—maybe that’s the root of the problem. It didn’t improve during college. I plan to slowly repair it over the long course of my life.
Because my low self-esteem made me afraid to show any interest, I missed out on a girl who was taller than me and liked me, while my LO is shorter than me. Maybe that was a double motivation for confessing, but I only got this one step right. Judging from the outcome, maybe even this step shouldn’t have happened. I don’t know how many mistakes I have to make in order to take the right path.
This LE has already been painful enough. I hope I can be prepared to handle what comes later. When I am able to settle down, I want to have a green-cheeked parakeet or something similar to stay with when hard times come.
Anvil,
“The most immediate feeling is that she is much better than me in every way—age/personality/major/academics. Another reason is that I couldn’t imagine building a romantic relationship; I could only imagine myself as a follower.”
In the matter of heart, only personality, core values and harmony between two loving people matter a great deal. Other three aspects are “superficial”, unless you count 3~4 years of age difference as a big deal. 🧐
But the sense of being a “follower” is not great in a relationship. Equal partners would have something unique to learn from and teach each other, no one is perfect! Otherwise, one side may develop an inferiority (if it didn’t exist beforehand) or feel like a “child/student” following a “parent/mentor”, not cool!
“I am love-starved, have no opinions of my own, and may also be prone to low self-esteem and some other minor problems. I only realized in my sophomore year that this wasn’t innate; it comes from long-term domestic violence. “
If this is the case, I strongly recommend to find a therapist specializing in cptsd to work with. They can help recognize residual/subconscious impact of old traumas and gradually heal your recognized/unknown wounds. It could be a painful/tough process, but it’s ABSOLUTELY necessary! Otherwise, you’d always feel “inferior” in your future heart matters or/and workplaces, and most likely, you’d fall in more LEs.
“But I hate my personality only because of my poor life planning, not because of daily interactions—maybe that’s the root of the problem. It didn’t improve during college. I plan to slowly repair it over the long course of my life.”
See the above paragraph. Therapies can help you sort out your long-term life planning/goals faster. I’m not saying you can’t repair the past damage by yourself; however, with a pair of professional ears to listen and of mental “eyes” to witness/observe, the “repair” process could be monitored with less “detours” or relapses. None of us can see our own “back of the head” (some personality traits), we need human “mirror(s)” (interactions) to spot them.
“Because my low self-esteem made me afraid to show any interest, I missed out on a girl who was taller than me and liked me, while my LO is shorter than me. Maybe that was a double motivation for confessing, but I only got this one step right. “
Height, as well as age, is also a big deal to Z-generation? 😀 Anyway, I think you did the right thing to disclose to your single LO (without knowing she’s a lesbian). Otherwise, you’d be tortured more/longer. Getting a definitive answer, one knows better what to do next.
“Judging from the outcome, maybe even this step shouldn’t have happened. I don’t know how many mistakes I have to make in order to take the right path.”
See the above. No one can know for sure an outcome ahead of time and actions. And if one is afraid of adverse outcome, thus not taking necessary steps, one would NEVER obtain anything that’s truly meaningful to him/her, particularly in love matters. Rational bravery is necessary and admired in all matters of our personal life.
In your long life path, you WILL make many mistakes, that’s only certain steps for one to eventually discover/tread on one’s “right path” or true calling, either in career or in “real Love” — not romance.
“This LE has already been painful enough. I hope I can be prepared to handle what comes later. “
If you’re new in LwL, try to stay a bit longer, read through DrL’s feature articles and his book. They will help prepare your long love/life journey down the road. You won’t regret time spent in exploring this “ghostly” psychological phenomenon called limerence.
“When I am able to settle down, I want to have a green-cheeked parakeet or something similar to stay with when hard times come.”
A green-cheeked parakeet? 🦜 So you want a chirping, mimic “follower”, too? 😳
Best lucks to you, young man!
Edit: “that’s the only certainty one has to…”
To ❄️
Thank you for your concern, and for these words! I’m a bit overwhelmed in a warm way 🥹
I agree that love is about the soul. Romantic stories are often set against messy reality, but understanding comes at a price. I guess the “superficial” things give you the confidence to pay that price. Including height, and maybe mainly a sense of inferiority (why didn’t she choose that taller, better guy?). The age gap may not matter after graduation, but in school it means a countdown to separation. Just my thoughts.
If a future partner loves me, the “follower” thing probably won’t happen. Even if it does, we’ll be equals. I’ll try to make sure of that—only be with the right one.
This personality issue is indeed a problem. In school it’s not a big deal—everyone is kind to me; my classmates don’t notice my problems; friends might think I’m just clingy; I was somewhat troubled but didn’t really understand. I only noticed the reason because of a video a friend sent me; he was surprised that I hadn’t noticed it. But once working, it could become a problem. I’ll seek therapy before then.
My being awkward isn’t the issue. What bothers me is that instinctive withdrawal sent things in a completely different direction—the direction in which a lack of understanding kept the limerence burning. I still don’t know what she was thinking at the time, why she showed interest the next day (out of fondness or just for fun, I kinda want to ask). Maybe it was just my longing to communicate with her playing tricks on me, and the other direction would have led to the same result.
Because of how I felt about LO, I once doubted whether what I felt for a particular good friend was more like liking. I even accidentally sent that message to him 😂. He sent a “?”, didn’t ask more, and told me it was time for gaming. I’m not sure whether, setting romance aside, I can identify “real Love”. I’ll feel it out.
This limerence experience has meant a lot to me. Thank you. I’ll gradually explore this “ghost”!
Haha, I like birds. Many aspects of them are charming. To me, a green-cheeked parakeet seems like a fun, mischievous little companion. 🤪
Anvil,
“Thank you for your concern, and for these words! I’m a bit overwhelmed in a warm way 🥹”
Most of people here are older (middle aged or senior) than you — still a big “kid”; so if we unintentionally sound a bit “patronizing”, please understand and forgive us. 🫂
“I agree that love is about the soul. Romantic stories are often set against messy reality, but understanding comes at a price.“
Another poster linked this Wiki source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance
which better explains to me (from the East) what the Western romance is all about.
To us, such romance or passionate “love” is considered as merely emotional attraction, from a crush to a “loss of mind” — limerence. We do agree that a romantic attraction initiates a possible love relationship, but itself is NOT love, not even nearly.
Your “understanding coming at a price’ means one has to suffer through the tumultuous, dramatic “pains” to understand what mostly unavailable romance is?
“I guess the “superficial” things give you the confidence to pay that price. Including height, and maybe mainly a sense of inferiority (why didn’t she choose that taller, better guy?). “
“Better” by whose yardsticks? Physical features, based on a cultural script, could give one initial, superficial “confidence” in the society (not in their own rooms), because it draws immediate attention and superficial attraction. But are human interactions and meaningful connection based on those superficial qualities?
If you get a chance, try to keenly observe or subtly ask those tall and good looking men, to sense/find out how much grounding confidence they have! It’s a particular human nature (not in other mammals) to desire what one does not have; but question is, does having/obtaining the missed necessarily bring one substantial confidence and lasting contentment/happiness?
“If a future partner loves me, the “follower” thing probably won’t happen. Even if it does, we’ll be equals. I’ll try to make sure of that—only be with the right one.”
That’s effective mental “tool” to building a future partnership. Again in a relationship both sides follow and lead at various time, depending on each partner’s talents and shortcomings. With or without love, people are equal in heart and spirit, despite differences in tangible and intangible possessions.
“This personality issue is indeed a problem. In school it’s not a big deal—everyone is kind to me; my classmates don’t notice my problems; friends might think I’m just clingy; I was somewhat troubled but didn’t really understand.”
At school, people don’t have direct interests/benefits related. In the competitive outside world, one has to strive with one’s talents and trained skills to make a living, or one could end up in the street (if without family inheritance).
“I only noticed the reason because of a video a friend sent me; he was surprised that I hadn’t noticed it. But once working, it could become a problem. I’ll seek therapy before then.”
I’m glad that you realized it and will seek therapy assistance. Don’t wait too long, even if you seemingly have tons of time which slips away really fast if not used efficiently and beneficially.
“My being awkward isn’t the issue. What bothers me is that instinctive withdrawal sent things in a completely different direction—the direction in which a lack of understanding kept the limerence burning. “
It sounds like your “instinctive withdrawal” due to a lack of confidence, casted uncertainty in your LE without other apparent barriers, which would still inflame limerence.
“I still don’t know what she was thinking at the time, why she showed interest the next day (out of fondness or just for fun, I kinda want to ask). Maybe it was just my longing to communicate with her playing tricks on me, and the other direction would have led to the same result.”
Based on your limited contact and information here, I’d think her interest (not sure how she showed it “the next day”) sent these messages: 1. You’re very courteous, which pleased her; 2. She’s single and possibly bi (she might have not settled on her gender identity yet), and you became an option over night; 3. she’s very curious about who you are as a person/an option, thus leaf the door open for further interactions.
“Because of how I felt about LO, I once doubted whether what I felt for a particular good friend was more like liking. I even accidentally sent that message to him 😂. He sent a “?”, didn’t ask more, and told me it was time for gaming.”
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here, what message to your good friend, also to this girl? Flirty yet confusing one? 🤔 Are you saying you like playing mischievous games with other people?
“I’m not sure whether, setting romance aside, I can identify “real Love”. I’ll feel it out.”
To me, romance is all about one’s own feelings, w/o fancy, talks (proses or/and lyrics) to express. “Real love” is about considering/caring and doing (words + concrete actions) for other side while maintaining one’s mental and emotional independence (taking care of one’s own mentality and emotional intelligence). If it’s mutual, other side reciprocate the same way.
I don’t quite agree that one can “feel love out”, feeling alone based anything would come and go at a whim or depending on one’s physical wellbeing. Love is also a set of learned skills, that can and has to be applied to one’s date/beloved in ordinary life, especially during hard times — sickness, job loss, friends’ needs, family emergencies, etc.
“This limerence experience has meant a lot to me. Thank you. I’ll gradually explore this “ghost”!”
Limerence is a “phantom” kind of love. If you can bring this “ghost” to the reality and let IT breathe and live under the sunlight, then limerence can transform to a real love.
“Haha, I like birds. Many aspects of them are charming. To me, a green-cheeked parakeet seems like a fun, mischievous little companion. 🤪”
Yes, 🦜 has its spirit and personality, can be mischievous and feisty, if “mistreated” or ignored.
To ❄
Haha, I also feel like I’m being treated as a kid. I never think of others’ patient guidance as “patronizing.” On the contrary, maybe it’s part of my personality problem: I only feel bad because others spend time on me, and I try to appear to be a qualified listener, which often makes them spend even more time 😂. This really needs to be solved!
I think romance culture exists widely. I’m also from the East. We all like love that is young, beyond material things, and full of vitality. It’s true that hormones may override soul-level love. Modern times have a lot of portrayals of controllers and the controlled, while in ancient times hormones and souls were often in tune—torn-apart young couples and homosexuals. I think, in terms of romance’s charm—its resistance to reality, there’s no difference; they’re all fascinating. The genetic trap happens when it gets out of control.
My personal temporary view: assuming love is mutual respect and trust at the soul level, the other person doesn’t even need to be your other half. Limerence is runaway romance with no place to release love. Controllers and the controlled are unformed love and romance. Ordinary couples are love and romance (perhaps romance will gradually be replaced by love). Between friends there can be love alone. The less actual love there is, the more crazily romance is needed to maintain the relationship.
The price of understanding—I mean that understanding a person requires actual contact. When you don’t understand them, you’re more willing to approach those who are better, unless you feel inferior. “Better,” in my view, is the material superiority of being with him/her, the guarantee of love. Appearance cannot tell a person’s soul, but before seeing the heart, everyone’s potential is the same. In the wild, when there isn’t enough food, only the strongest in a nest of baby birds are left. That’s the cruelty of reality. As humans we don’t have to encounter that, but the cruelty of love can happen.
I understand no one is essentially different; it’s just that their tentacles reach in different directions. A person who is disabled in one aspect may be stronger in another. It may take me a long time to learn to love myself and not compare myself to others, but it’s undeniable that some people’s outstretched tentacles are better at love, while some may never meet someone who appreciates them in their whole lives. This is just my superficial thought. I’ll try to be optimistic. Maybe only by being myself will I meet the right person!
I will make sure that my future partner and I love each other, while staying rational.
I am indeed worried about things after I start working. I’m not good at competition, but I can follow others 😂. Time slips away very fast. Ah, I’ve realized it. My personality makes it impossible for me to use it efficiently. Bad personality—I will fix it!
I hate my “instinctive withdrawal.” When the girl taller than me greeted me twice in a row, my mind went blank. After waving, I ran away. Similar things kept happening for three months, but I didn’t learn my lesson. And for LO, one thing made me suffer for 10 months.
I hope so. Sometimes I have brief moments of clarity: “She smiled only because I was funny.” But they are always broken by “the next day”. In the canteen, LO suddenly appeared in front of me. I didn’t dare look at her. I panicked, went to pay, and found a seat in the crowd, then out of the corner of my eye saw her slow down as she passed, look at me for a few seconds, and leave. Every day I regret that day. If I had gotten to know her, would things have been completely different?
I have two friends I really want to cling to. It’s not about intimacy or romance, but about the feeling they themselves give me. “If my feeling for her is called limerence, then my feeling for him is more like a crush?” I wanted to send it to another friend but sent it to him by mistake. A funny incident 😂.
I agree that romance is a feeling and love is a skill. I’ll try to “judge” it. I speak little simply because I don’t have much to say. I completely agree! And will learn!🥰
“Turn limerence into real love”—Currently I can only think about my LO. I’m not sure whether I should keep hoping to be with LO. I hope it isn’t just my illusion.
Even though they are all social birds, different species evolve different overall personalities. Green-cheeked parakeets are very mischievous, budgies help each other, and magpies are like a small gang. Let me take a sniff of those delicious feathers.😍
Anvil,
Opps! forgot you’re old enough to walk into a bar independently! You sound so mature and are too polite to say that we “elderly” tend to nag when given chance before our sunset, which indeed “needs to be solved”. How about I get my 25 yrs old voice out to chat with you? 😀
Were you born and grew up in the East, or came to the West when little, or are still in the East (Middle or Far)? It’s universally true that “young love” tends to be dominantly hormonal based romance, usually (not all) doesn’t last long, especially if it is reciprocated fast. Soul-level love takes time to develop in any culture.
“Modern times have a lot of portrayals of controllers and the controlled, while in ancient times hormones and souls were often in tune—torn-apart young couples and homosexuals. I think, in terms of romance’s charm—its resistance to reality, there’s no difference; they’re all fascinating. The genetic trap happens when it gets out of control.”
Idealized romance not only looks charming/amusing, but seems strong enough to resist or escape reality. But why a lot of controllers & the controlled in relationship are portrayed particularly in Modern times? Why hormones and souls were in-tune more in ancient times, (“with more “torn-apart youn couples and homosexuals”), when most of the cultures back then were macho? What do you mean “a genetic trap” in both times? 🧐
“My personal temporary view: assuming love is mutual respect and trust at the soul level, the other person doesn’t even need to be your other half.”
There is stronger, modern theory against this ancient belief that love is a union/merge of two “halves”, but stresses it’s two bodies, minds and souls stand “independently together” — the couple respect, trust and support each other to be a fuller individual, achieving what potentials of each and the both could reach in their reality (while battling individually or/and together against life’s adversities) — worldly survival/thrival, deep intimacy, harmony, contentment, peace,.
“Limerence is runaway romance with no place to release love. Controllers and the controlled are unformed love and romance. Ordinary couples are love and romance (perhaps romance will gradually be replaced by love). Between friends there can be love alone. The less actual love there is, the more crazily romance is needed to maintain the relationship.”
I agree with how you look at limerence and love here. In reciprocated “love” w/o limerence, (someone said here (paraphrase) that as soon as honeymoon is over, romance is “replaced” by love, seen as dull by some limerents; few even subconsciously goes only after limerence high, they don’t want the “actual love” part.
“The price of understanding—I mean that understanding a person requires actual contact. When you don’t understand them, you’re more willing to approach those who are better, unless you feel inferior. “
I’m not sure that’s how Glimmer sets off . And without the Glimmer in some degrees, modern people don’t have interesest to approach whoever are “better or worse”, unless they’re thinking about a practical connection of convenience based on mere physical, social, financial, popularity status.
““Better,” in my view, is the material superiority of being with him/her, the guarantee of love. “
Disagree. Material possession is a better foundation, but NOT the guarantee of love. Material superiority cannot “buy” a heart or a soulful connection that you talked about earlier.
“Appearance cannot tell a person’s soul, but before seeing the heart, everyone’s potential is the same. “
Most limerents would argue with you about their LO’s (even a stranger’s) appearance, which might mean a sky difference (to them) from everyone else’s appearance. A Cupid’s arrow is blind. In romance, everyone’s potential is random/different, even if s/he is already one’s existing friends — there is love, but no romance among them, as you points out earlier.
“In the wild, when there isn’t enough food, only the strongest in a nest of baby birds are left. That’s the cruelty of reality. As humans we don’t have to encounter that, but the cruelty of love can happen.”
I agree with Darwin’s evolution theory, but a matter of love (intangible) in modern world does not work that way, although “cruelty of love” can take place, but it’s not due to material/tangible inferiority. Frankenstein can find his mate in modern society — I saw many such cases in my COO, who still value some ancient virtues and philosophies.
“I understand no one is essentially different; it’s just that their tentacles reach in different directions. A person who is disabled in one aspect may be stronger in another. “
Very true. There is no difference in human essences. And people who are disabled in one aspect can apply and amplify their special strength/expertise in other areas and excel more than normal “abled” folks. In the matter of heart (not physical one), there is NOT innate disabled people!
“It may take me a long time to learn to love myself and not compare myself to others, but it’s undeniable that some people’s outstretched tentacles are better at love, while some may never meet someone who appreciates them in their whole lives. “
It’s very sad to hear that you feel under-confident due to some reasons, natural? But in love matter, I simply don’t believe one is innately better, because love is soul + mind + a set of learned skills. While instant crush/glimmer is not commendable, there is “delayed” glimmer takes place (by reports in this site) among existing friends and acquaintances, who already appreciated the said limerents in their life for the time being.
Still, you’re right, few people, even having a material superiority, may never have enough luck to meet their desired mate. When that is the case, one still could learn to love oneself, not compete with others, and peacefully live with the fate (Stoic, Buddhistic?) — What else is left there to do if one can’t beat the fate? I watched the movie (Bride of Frankenstein, 1935) in which Frankenstein found his female counterpart and lived happily, against the cruel reality together.
“This is just my superficial thought. I’ll try to be optimistic. Maybe only by being myself will I meet the right person!”
Yes! ONLY by being content oneSelf, NOT compete with anyone else, not seek external validations (beside job skills), one could possibly meet “the right person”despite all natural adversities! People in any culture admire adversity-fighters and adore “self-containers”, not those over self-conscious, discontent, cynical self-pitiers. In my COO, I saw/met more of those kind with very “straight backbones”!
“I will make sure that my future partner and I love each other, while staying rational.”
That’s the only way to make a love partnership last.
“I am indeed worried about things after I start working. I’m not good at competition, but I can follow others 😂. “
There are bosses/jobs that like/need to be followed, or perhaps you can do some independent research work or arts designing stuff or writing — the skill is highly needed/wanted in all professions!
“Time slips away very fast. Ah, I’ve realized it. My personality makes it impossible for me to use it efficiently. Bad personality—I will fix it!”
If one determines to change self with a strong will, one can become whatever he wants to be, personality wise.
“I hate my “instinctive withdrawal.” When the girl taller than me greeted me twice in a row, my mind went blank. After waving, I ran away. Similar things kept happening for three months, but I didn’t learn my lesson. And for LO, one thing made me suffer for 10 months.”
Oh… such “instinctive” reactions will gradually disappear once we get more self-confidence and contentment with who we are. Then we won’t run away from taller, or strikingly beautiful, or seemingly more knowledgeable (wo)men, who not superior than us in mind, heart, and spirit, despite they might be children of millionaires, or an over-night successful startup boss, or holds 6 Ph.D degrees.
“Sometimes I have brief moments of clarity: “She smiled only because I was funny.” But they are always broken by “the next day”.
If you think/know you are funny, then she might indeed have appreciated it. But in LE, the “lack of confidence” strikes the limerent’s head worse than Zeus’ thunderbolt. I empathize why your clarity would disappear the next day. It happens to all limerents in LE (you can find it in this site), don’t worry too much about it.
“In the canteen, LO suddenly appeared in front of me. I didn’t dare look at her. I panicked, went to pay, and found a seat in the crowd, then out of the corner of my eye saw her slow down as she passed, look at me for a few seconds, and leave. Every day I regret that day. If I had gotten to know her, would things have been completely different?”
By your description, I don’t think she’d really get upset by your abrupt “departure”. Her lingering eyes show her awareness your nervous, romantic affection (is this before or after the disclosure?). If you had gotten to know her more, I guess things could have been different, more partially — you might like each other more or less; she might become bi or not…. But one awkward encounter would not turn someone off, if they like you, more than just superficially.
Is this encounter what you referred (in earlier posts) as her showing her interests in you? I thought you had a chance to talk with her a little bit about the nature of your LE, or you sent messages to each other or something?… I’m confused about the time sequence of your LE onset, encounters, disclosure and NC.
“I have two friends I really want to cling to. It’s not about intimacy or romance, but about the feeling they themselves give me. “If my feeling for her is called limerence, then my feeling for him is more like a crush?” I wanted to send it to another friend but sent it to him by mistake. A funny incident 😂.”
I’m also confused about the information here: what is “it”? If your relationship with your male friends are not intimate or romantic, why using the word “crush”, or relating the experience to the girl? Are you saying that those friends also arose some sorts of “awe” or mysterious excitement in you? or that you’re attracted to boys as well?
“I agree that romance is a feeling and love is a skill. I’ll try to “judge” it. I speak little simply because I don’t have much to say. I completely agree! And will learn!🥰”
Romance is about concerning one’s own feelings more; love is about caring for other side’s feelings/wellbeing. I don’t think you speak simply at all, after reading your response to “TT-Two”. It seems a lot of complicated/unclear stuff going on in your LE mind.
“Turn limerence into real love”—Currently I can only think about my LO. I’m not sure whether I should keep hoping to be with LO. I hope it isn’t just my illusion.”
Whether it’s illusion or not, I am not sure if keeping the hope for 3 years is really wise, despite you can afford the time. Because 1, she may remain as a lesbian only; 2. She may fall in crush with other gay/girl; 3, while waiting, you’d close your eyes for other potential LO who can also appreciate who you are.
Ironically, the only way to find whether it’s worthwhile to hope is to interact with and get to know the girl a little more, even just as an acquaintance; but you’ve gone NC. If you still hope, how is NC going to work? 😀
I admire your knowledge on birds! I’m more of mammal pets person, but love all animals in general, except snakes and snugs, and anything footless that only crawls on the ground.
To ❄️
Sorry, I really mean it. I feel guilty whenever anyone spends unnecessary time on me. I know this is an inevitable part of human life. I just feel bad because of my personality problem. This is only about myself 🤕
I’m in the Far East. I mean, regarding the portrayals that exist, modern people are more imaginative and better able to appreciate romance itself, while ancient people wouldn’t consider “controllers and the controlled” love worth admiring, they could understand that torn-apart young couples and homosexuals were loving souls—just my ignorant view. The genetic trap I meant is limerence, making one waste oneself on romance in vain.
I haven’t experienced the union/merge of two “halves”, so I’m not sure. My current understanding is that the feeling of romance doesn’t disappear, and no longer dominates. Right now I can’t imagine liking anyone else, so I hope I’m not pursuing romance itself, or that would be totally amusing.😂
My view of how feelings are built is indeed too superficial. I think material superiority also includes the body, the part other than the soul? Maybe my understanding is like a bunch of tiny people randomly bumping into each other, so it’s not about getting along and Glimmer, but about opening a blind box. It’s funny 😂. I’ll correct it, thank you!
If love requires another living person, then it’s not entirely in your control. I agree it’s not about material disadvantage. For example, introverted people may miss many things. Fortunately, we can choose to stay with animals. I think interspecies love is especially fascinating.
Overall, my personality problem is big: withdrawal and avoidance. The only real action I took was asking for LO’s contact info. At that time I felt nothing but extreme nervousness 🙃, and I could barely hear LO’s quiet voice. I worry that’s why she was smiling. But apart from the limerent urge, my heart wasn’t ready to pursue romance. Withdrawal was reasonable, but I just hate it. If I don’t end up with LO and no new LO appears, I’ll stay with pets and try to love myself!
Apart from not being able to date and being too clingy, I think my personality is actually quite suitable for interpersonal relationships. I’ll try these! A friend once suggested Adlerian psychology to me; it also seems to be about strength/courage.
Rationally I understand no one is superior. Sometimes I’ve thought that romance would help me overcome inferiority, but inferiority prevents romance 🫤.
When I’m in LE, my clarity only lasts for a very short while. The “interest” she showed the next day always makes me lose clarity.
If I had been a bit braver then, things would have been completely different. I can only interpret it as “everyone has their own path” to comfort myself. This is the “interest” I mentioned—very short, right? The process was roughly: the second encounter (when LE began), disclosure, NC, and not long ago, disclosing LE and asking for an explicit rejection. I didn’t discuss my LE, for fear of putting pressure on her, and also because I was afraid of wasting her time (see!), so I spoke very little. NC also came from this.
I want to say, if my strong feelings for her are limerence rather than a crush, then the (less strong) feelings for my friend are more like a crush? Just a joke. The reason I want to cling to him is not because of how intimate we are, but because of the feeling he gives me. I’m very sure I’m heterosexual, but I can “like” the same sex. This is also why I think there’s still hope (maybe the opposite).
I usually try to write more to “prove” I’m listening carefully, but sometimes I completely agree and don’t know what to say, so I can only say “I’m really listening!” A very bad mentality.
It may be very unwise. I’m also not sure whether this thought will continue in the future. I still have a lot of time to change myself, and this thought. If certainty is really needed, I may indeed need to break NC, but I’m not sure how to chat with her. Due to nervousness, I might only appear serious. That way we can’t understand each other, and it would also bother her.
Thank you! I don’t know much, just some interest. I need to learn slowly 🥰, and I’m very, very afraid of bugs 🤪.
Anvil,
You’re in the Far East, in communism or non-communism system? Which are radically different. Is your LO from your area, or belongs to another ethnic group? The reason I’m asking is only because most of posters in this site are from the West, whose social views/values may be quite different from yours. I’ve lived in the West for a long time, so I’m now a mix of the two world.
I agree with you that limerence is a “genetic trap” while Glimmer, short-lived crush is natural/normal in all cultures. Due to differences in cultures — without the thick “soil” of Romanticism in the East, it’s much easier for most people (by property) to squash an infatuation before it “explodes” into LE, “making one waste oneself on romance in vain.”
“My current understanding is that the feeling of romance doesn’t disappear, and no longer dominates. Right now I can’t imagine liking anyone else, so I hope I’m not pursuing romance itself, or that would be totally amusing.”
I’m glad that your feeling for your LO is NOT “dominating” any more. But your imagination seems to be still strongly alive, perhaps because it has not been checked against realistic knowledge about the LO. Without any dating, there isn’t relationship yet; only you would find out whether your hope is for romance only or with love both.
“I think material superiority also includes the body, the part other than the soul?”
Yes, I think so. Human beings are unique “habitual” animals, who get use to (or get bored of) any nuances soon or later, which certainly applies to the body’s appearance, beautiful or common. The intensity of liking or disking all dial down, ie. Esmeralda wasn’t afraid of Quasimodo anymore after chatted with him while hiding inside the cathedral, she even danced a solo for him after he brought him a small wild flower.
Meanwhile, each mind and soul/spirit keep learning, changing, and evolving, whether one tries or not; therefore they’re infinitely “fascinating”. When we say some people are interesting/attractive, that’s because they have eclectic knowledge, surprising insights that affect our thinking, or enrich/amuse our senses , or click with our own mindset/spirit. They can be sociable or shy.
“Maybe my understanding is like a bunch of tiny people randomly bumping into each other, so it’s not about getting along and Glimmer, but about opening a blind box. “
Hmmm…🤔 are you referring people in those computer games (I’m totally ignorant of them, never played)? In the reality, it’s NOT about opening “a blind box” by munchkins or giants, but human heart/mind/spirit trying to connect with like-minded others, hopefully without limerence, even if the pair-bonding desire is coded in our DNA.
“If love requires another living person, then it’s not entirely in your control. “
Yes and No. Romance requires another person and is mostly out of one’s control. However in matter of love, our logic and wisdom can direct our heart/mind to whomever we want and choose to love, even if they don’t reciprocate the same. There is unrequited love, without limerence, lasted short or long.
“Fortunately, we can choose to stay with animals. I think interspecies love is especially fascinating.”
Yes, pets can be our good/loyal companions, but they’re not human beings. They can communicate with and understand us only through eyes, tones, gestures, which I don’t think is sufficient for human brain/heart— NO other animals can understand what you’ve been expressing here! Moreover, we can’t mate with them, physical intimacy/sex is our natural desire and an expression of love.
“Overall, my personality problem is big: withdrawal and avoidance.”
I think this can be worked with professional therapists, which might take a while to lessen. Are psychotherapy services sufficient and good in your area?
“The only real action I took was asking for LO’s contact info. At that time I felt nothing but extreme nervousness 🙃, and I could barely hear LO’s quiet voice. I worry that’s why she was smiling. “
That tells me you really know little about LO in reality. Your nervousness is totally understandable and expected. LE can make an extremely logical person to loose his/her head for the time being, so sorrowful to watch. 🥺
“But apart from the limerent urge, my heart wasn’t ready to pursue romance. Withdrawal was reasonable, but I just hate it. “
I see. Hate what? the unready situation? If you truly see and accept this logic, then a lot serenity/contentment should have come to you, no?
“If I don’t end up with LO and no new LO appears, I’ll stay with pets and try to love myself!”
Don’t you think it’s too early (at the age of 21) to make such a decision? Besides, with or without a LO, one NEEDS to love oneself no matter living in what kind of condition/adversity. If one can’t even love him/herself (against whatever odds), why should anyone else love him/her? And if one is unable to appreciate and respect oneself, how are they able to love another one?
“Apart from not being able to date and being too clingy, I think my personality is actually quite suitable for interpersonal relationships.”
So you’re saying that your “withdrawal”, “avoidance”, “clinginess” (all three features have their root perhaps in one’s childhood or youth) would only occur in romance but not in other interpersonal relationships? Don’t you think now or soon, when you’re not dating, would be a good time to work with a therapist to remove their roots, so you could be “personality baggage” free for later romance+love?
“A friend once suggested Adlerian psychology to me; it also seems to be about strength/courage.”
Adlerian psychology is very helpful for individual’s mental and spiritual growth. I self – studied it for a few months. If you can find a good friend/therapist to work with, its practice would be more effective.
“Rationally I understand no one is superior. Sometimes I’ve thought that romance would help me overcome inferiority, but inferiority prevents romance.”
Absolutely no one! Yes, the sense of inferiority prevents one from approaching suitable romance+love, which a lot of time, favor, choose, and respond those courageous, confident, clear and creative mind/souls, regardless their “material status”. Living in the East, have you witnessed such examples?
“If I had been a bit braver then, things would have been completely different. I can only interpret it as “everyone has their own path” to comfort myself. This is the “interest” I mentioned—very short, right?
We don’t know. If you bravely interacted more with her in campus, and got to know each other a bit better, you might have found out what her “interest” meant AT The Time. Any “interest”/feeling — a sprout of romance, can grow or wither depending on if it is “Fed” by water and nutrition. When starved for a while, anything organic, including heart and mind, could die. What did you do on your part?
Henceforth, can we think and treat human relationships as alive, organic “beings”, not just figuratively but realistically speaking? Going NC is to starve the LE branch in those unavailable LE cases, your sounds like only temporary unavailable.
In terms of a path, no one’s path is ever fixed/unchangeable at any time, particularly at your age. People and all things/matter change all the time for better or worse, whether they intend to or not. This is one of four Buddhistic principles, are you familiar with?
“The process was roughly: the second encounter (when LE began), disclosure, NC, and not long ago, disclosing LE and asking for an explicit rejection. I didn’t discuss my LE, for fear of putting pressure on her, and also because I was afraid of wasting her time (see!), so I spoke very little. NC also came from this.”
So, you had two disclosures and NC, which still haven’t removed your LE? Then, it might be your ample imagination about her and a possible future relationship that has kept the LE alive, making you suffering, but much less now. I understand why you don’t want to give it up yet. But I think you hope to have a healthy romance + love later with the girl, not LE only, right?
“ I’m very sure I’m heterosexual, but I can “like” the same sex. This is also why I think there’s still hope (maybe the opposite).”
What you’re saying here? You can form a strong friendship and stay with men, instead of merely pets? 🧐
“It may be very unwise. I’m also not sure whether this thought will continue in the future. I still have a lot of time to change myself, and this thought. “
What “thought” do you mean here? Your limerence? Normally, human thoughts and feelings change either over a short or long time; but LE could last a bit or much longer. To think any thought will be fixed in the mind is incorrect or wishful, unless it’s neurodivergence involved.
“If certainty is really needed, I may indeed need to break NC, but I’m not sure how to chat with her. Due to nervousness, I might only appear serious. That way we can’t understand each other, and it would also bother her.”
Based on Dr. L, once certainty is obtained — Yes or No, LE would dial/die down. But based on the LO’s response, both your availability and a stretch of time in hand, I’m not sure how long a vague “certainty” is going to last, which she already gave you but your LE mind “refuses” to give up a hope.
To me, a break of NC could mean you naturally bump into her, greet a bit, or chat a bit, or ask her how her second year of studies is going, or common academic topics, or the school life/clubs… all small talks with sincere curiosity, care, and shy charms, which then would NOT make you nervous or bother her.
Don’t expect to understand each other soon, that’s the way down the road. The first step is to break ice… then warm the water… then stroll around the water…then get feet wet a bit… then splash the water a bit… And in each step, sense whether she’s comfortable, encouraging, or engaging… treating you like an close acquaintance or even a so-so friend (she left the room for men with femininity).
One thing, do not copy what Hollywood movies do in its cliche romantic scenes. Majority of ordinary Asian girls can’t stomach or shy away from them. They may run away if you imitate those feely, touchy gestures in public. Subtlety on verbal expressions of romance/love is a cultivated art in the Far East, as you know!
Now, I’m becoming curious which country you’re in…. Even people from the three main Eastern Asian nations are very culturally/socially different… 😃
I don’t mind answering; I’m just not sure if it’s appropriate to say. I’m Chinese, and I guess there’s a decent chance we share the same origin 😉? LO’s home and mine are 2,000 kilometers apart, but we should be of the same ethnicity. As far as I understand, especially on this topic, differences between countries are actually small. Typical examples are market economies and social welfare (the convergence of social systems in different countries), and Republicans and Democrats (divisions in political views within the same country).
“the thick soil of Romanticism”—I’m not sure whether listening to Chris Grey at that time had anything to do with my LE, or whether it had a subtle influence. But after falling into LE, every song reminds me of her.
I mean, with my current understanding of love, if there’s no romantic impulse, how do you distinguish a partner from a good friend? One reason I find it hard to distinguish her from my imagination is that learning about her feels like filling in this imagination. I think I can like her soul. Whether these things are right or wrong, I can only slowly figure them out.
I agree with “habitual”, but I think it doesn’t only happen in humans. On the one hand, there’s a tendency toward novelty in sex; on the other hand, long-term companionship produces a sense of closeness. I think Esmeralda could become friends with Quasimodo but not partners, even though there’s no difference in trust and respect, and Quasimodo deserves to be loved. I’m not sure whether, setting romance aside, I could find my LO “interesting”. No conclusion yet, but I hope I can.
Maybe. It’s just a metaphor. I’ve spent too much time on computer games, which also comes from my personality. It seems I think records in computer games are living footprints? Your words have encouraged me so much. Maybe I shouldn’t feel so inferior. Maybe my future partner won’t care how “bad” I am.
“Unrequited love without limerence”—I’m not sure I can imagine it. Like Quasimodo? I think communication and understanding can be had with friends, while sexual desire is less important and can be resolved. I really like the story of Chris Crowe and Walnut; what truly matters is love and companionship. This happens easily with birds 🤔. Maybe this is also part of romance.
I haven’t looked into psychotherapy resources, but if I wanted to find them, big hospitals should have them. I haven’t truly accepted this “logic”. I hate my withdrawal.
Maybe it is indeed too early for this decision. If I can’t appreciate a partner, I can at least appreciate pets. I don’t know whether, if I loved myself, I would still easily fall into LE. Maybe in some way I do love myself; it’s just that when it comes to loving others, I’m too inferior.
“Clinginess” also occurs between friends, and may occur with a future partner if they trust me. Apart from that, I don’t have many other social problems—except my inner sense of inferiority. I probably won’t have time for therapy until next year, and before then, I might resolve my LE by getting to know her. So far I haven’t practiced Adlerian psychology. Likewise, when I have time and feel the need, I’ll try it!
If I weren’t so inferior, I might have been with someone else before I discovered my LO 😂. I’m not sure if I’ve seen such examples. I have a friend who is well liked among friends, but it doesn’t seem to be about “confidence”. I can’t say why.
I did nothing but avoid. Now I think even if she had “interest” at the time, it has already withered 🥲. Deep down I don’t believe the obstacle is really about orientation; that’s why my LE hasn’t disappeared. I don’t know much about religion, but I agree that all things are always changing.
Yes, I hope to have more interactions with her (or to completely prove that my hope is wrong). I just don’t want to seem too strange. When I’m with two specific friends, I wish I were a girl. Toward LO, I also wish I were a girl, but it’s just a thought; I myself don’t have gender identity issues.
My idea was to wait three years if I could. I know it’s easy to change; I just had no other ideas. After chatting with you, I’m starting to feel that maybe I shouldn’t wait.
My LE brain was quiet for only two or three days. Fortunately, the physical reaction has faded, but there are signs of worsening. I’m currently on another campus, so I won’t run into her in daily life unless I go to her campus. I don’t think I can overcome my nervousness in real life, but if we chat online, I’ll try not to make the other person nervous.
I need to understand these words well! The only thing I can think of is to ask her about the things I’ve always been confused about, but asking too much is obviously not good. I’ll feel it out carefully! I hope I won’t seem annoying. When I got her contact info, I left immediately. I might have been so nervous that her comforting words seemed a bit like mockery to me 🙃, so I’ll be careful.
As mentioned above, I feel my experience isn’t very related to culture/society. It’s more like LE colliding with a bad personality.
To ❄
I used to comfort myself with one reason: my liking for her is selfish. If I truly liked her, I shouldn’t try. I don’t know whether it can count as “unrequited love without limerence.”
Maybe I don’t need a result; rather, I need more understanding and a judgment about whether I can wait. I don’t know whether I can wait without being in LE.
Anvil,
Are you Chinese from Taiwan or Mainland China? They are two quite different political and “cultural” systems — the Red and the Golden (I name them this way in my head). But I don’t want to discuss about the cultural similarities or differences in a large scale.
Chris Grey’s voice or his singing style is unique, he’s one of few instantly recognizable singers (for me). The music and lyrics are hauntingly sad, longing, helpless… grasping the listener’s heart, mind and soul… I think anyone’s LE can be intensified 10 times folds if listening to his songs.
“I mean, with my current understanding of love, if there’s no romantic impulse, how do you distinguish a partner from a good friend? “
Aside from other businesses, partners usually live together (in the West), sharing and supporting each other with a set of specific, mutual living goals, they’re closer physically, emotionally /mentally. Good friends lead their separate daily lives w/o the similar interests or goals, they don’t deal with us regularly or constantly.
“One reason I find it hard to distinguish her from my imagination is that learning about her feels like filling in this imagination. I think I can like her soul. Whether these things are right or wrong, I can only slowly figure them out.”
Not sure how you have learned about her to the level of “filling the imagination”. If attracted at a soul level, then the LE might be more than romance only (or could be illusions).
By what social or personal yardsticks, what things could be measured “right” or “wrong”? I’m a bit confused here, but do wish you could figure them out sooner or later.
“On the one hand, there’s a tendency toward novelty in sex; on the other hand, long-term companionship produces a sense of closeness. “
True. Some people just chase novelty in romance and sex, while those, who especially have cptsd and other abusive traumas, intuitively seek (at a subconscious level) safe, steady, harmonious, lasting sense of emotion/physical connection and balanced inter-reliant closeness.
Of course, Quasimodo deserves to be loved! There is romance+love on Quasimodo side, but only compassion + friendship on Esmeralda (she’s drawn to the fancy, play-boy officer). Knowing the inevitable tragic consequence for Quasimodo’ noble, unrequited love, Victor Hugo had to “kill” the both (in an unseparated hugging position) to become a Father of Romance fiction. 😀
“I’m not sure whether, setting romance aside, I could find my LO “interesting”. No conclusion yet, but I hope I can.”
That’s especially why you need to interact with LO more. Maybe her flaws could turn off your LE. If she turns out not “interesting”, without the LE rosy lenses, would you still like her soul?
“It seems I think records in computer games are living footprints? “
I can’t agree with you here about “living footprints”. Anything inside a computer is so fleshless “inhuman”. I hated programming so much that I threw away my BS in “computer science” and restarted the humanity study in BA and then MA. My XSO’s “addiction” in computer games turned me off so much…
“Your words have encouraged me so much. Maybe I shouldn’t feel so inferior. Maybe my future partner won’t care how “bad” I am.”
No matter what shortcomings one is born with, no matter what terrible things happened to him/her or what mistakes one made in the past, one should NOT feel inferior but take corrective and progress steps to modify or improve oneself for one’s own contentments and joys — the Smart Selfishness.
Meanwhile cutting down the sense of “inferiority” requires NOT comparing oneself with others in personality or all superficial stuff. Who has a standard measuring stick anyway?! The only comparison to make is to compare with one’s previous self — checking progress or recession in body and mind.
I’ve argued on this site before that no one else can truly validate or invalidate us, because they never walked on our previous personal path (especially a tough, winding one) up to this point; they have no/little visceral knowledge of what we went through, so how could they be qualified to judge/assess us? Good intentioned, but unknowledgeable or insubstantial praises are still “flattery”.
Based on your talks here, I foresee that whoever cares about your “weakness” would NOT become your partner. You’d choose a “right” girl/woman who is able to clearly see and appreciate your authentic Self that is still “evolving”, and to assist you to shine in your unique strength and light.
“Unrequited love without limerence”—I’m not sure I can imagine it. Like Quasimodo? “
Quasimodo is a just frictional character. I was thinking about Gregory Peck and Audrey Hepburn’s mutual, unrequited love. I don’t think either had limerence after falling in a crush while shouting “Roman Holiday”. They exchanged small, valuable gifts, kept very loose contact, and walked on their separate life paths. Their love story came out only after Peck attended Hepburn’s funeral and got very emotional?
“I think communication and understanding can be had with friends, while sexual desire is less important and can be resolved.”
With friends or companion partners? Sexual desire is usually completely absent in friendship. Friendship comes and goes, but not so easily or frequently with loving/living partnership. How sexual desire can be resolved, in what relations?
I really like the story of Chris Crowe and Walnut; what truly matters is love and companionship. This happens easily with birds 🤔. Maybe this is also part of romance.
The story of Chris Crowe and Walnut is amazingly touching! I couldn’t imagine a bird could bond with a human being! Did Crowe have his own human mate at home? I agree that love and companionship is MORE important than romance — the usual but not necessary spark possibly leading to a long-term bonding.
I forgot to tell you about my XLE’s positive effect: XLO’s passive tolerance “helped” me dissolve my long-term cptsd impact, after I boldly “enlisted”/pushed him to be a silent, patient “ear” for my written monologue. All my previous therapies did not achieve this goal, besides professionally informing/analyzing my cptsd.
Do you sense that your LO might potentially be able to serve as a “tool” for easing your cptsd symptoms (avoidance, withdrawal) and its impact (sense of inferiority)? It can only work before the LE disappears, when a good LO, even unavailable, could still positively influence limerent amazingly.
“it’s just that when it comes to loving others, I’m too inferior.”
Loving others — to love, means to give our loving care to others, there is no superiority or inferiority here! Quasimodo’s love is just same as Romeo’s – they both chose to die with their beloved. The sense of inferiority springs out from whether one can feel enough to be “loved” or “desired”.
Limerents’ “clinginess” could be off putting to non-limerent LO, who wants a strong, steady, intimate and inter-dependent pair-bond.
“If I weren’t so inferior, I might have been with someone else before I discovered my LO”.
You are NOT inferior, but have a false sense of “inferiority”, which might have prevented you from connecting with someone else before LO.
“I have a friend who is well liked among friends, but it doesn’t seem to be about “confidence”. I can’t say why.”
I don’t think confidence comes from being liked. On the contrary, many confident people are “loners” by choice. They don’t care about being (dis)liked or desired by mediocre or social butterflies, they just want to walk and stay on their own path, treading on which could bring them steady contentment, joy, and peace.
“I might resolve my LE by getting to know her. “
In your case still with a hope, it might be more better than NC. You can only know by giving it a try.
“I did nothing but avoid. Now I think even if she had “interest” at the time, it has already withered 🥲. “
Time and space can often, but not necessarily, kill anything, unless her “interest” in you involves more than a romantic spark… ie. a wish for a close, solid friendship, who knows.
“Deep down I don’t believe the obstacle is really about orientation; that’s why my LE hasn’t disappeared. “
It makes a lot of sense. If you really believe LE doesn’t come around you that easily, then you should be really courageous to take the rare chance, to get to know this LO.
“After chatting with you, I’m starting to feel that maybe I shouldn’t wait.”
Do you want another three years of LE pains? If NC can’t kill it, then only choice is to “confront” and interact with her, but in a natural, calm, and amicable way.
“I’m currently on another campus, so I won’t run into her in daily life unless I go to her campus. I don’t think I can overcome my nervousness in real life, but if we chat online, I’ll try not to make the other person nervous.”
Well, chatting online first might be better to reduce your physical nervousness — the screen blocks out all senses but also restricts obtaining visceral knowledge from each other. Still, you can start with small talks about both of your school lives. Once you both feel more comfortable, you can invite her for coffee/tea in her campus.
“The only thing I can think of is to ask her about the things I’ve always been confused about, but asking too much is obviously not good. “
Hold your horse 🐎 for a second! It’s the way too early/fast to go there! You’ll have to live with your confusion for a while until you feel/see she’s open to your inquires and wiling to answer your complex questions.
“I might have been so nervous that her comforting words seemed a bit like mockery to me 🙃, so I’ll be careful.”
I don’t think she’d mock you, based on your description about her. Also, I think she’d appreciate anyone who appreciates her artsy face and her as a person.
“I used to comfort myself with one reason: my liking for her is selfish. If I truly liked her, I shouldn’t try. I don’t know whether it can count as “unrequited love without limerence.”
Limerence is mostly self-centered, it’s not love. If you truly like/love her without LE, then you’d care more for her wellbeing and would do something (words + actions) for that goal without so much fear to be rejected, like Quasimodo.
“Unrequited love without Limerence’ usually takes place between unavailable couples, like one or two sides with a SO. Their love can’t be reciprocated in reality. You’re not LE free, and you don’t know yet whether your love would be finally requited or not.
Yes, to be able wait or not, without worsening LE, is your current important concern.
To ❄
I’m from mainland China. Here we usually call them Red and White/Green. It seems the “chance” is a bit smaller.😦
It seems music really is a booster for LE. I didn’t expect it to have such a big effect. I’ve realized that the singers I like all have unique voices, whereas before I liked EDM, where vocals were just an embellishment 😂
As I understand it, romance helps us choose a “good friend for life”? In some way, this isn’t chosen by our rational selves. It’s really marvelous.
I really hope my LO and I can be attracted to each other at the soul level. If there’s a chance to get to know each other, I’ll try to chat today. I’m not sure whether my assumption that I’m “not just pursuing romance” is right. I’ll figure it out.
My understanding is that, in terms of acquired influences, people go in different directions. But if we’re talking only about the human species itself, loyalty isn’t our label. We use self-awareness to fight it or intensify it.
When death (especially shocking death) is combined with love, it sets off romance itself very well. Considering Esmeralda’s own innocence and simplicity, the tragic element is greater than the romantic one. I really like Bonnie and Clyde, but unfortunately I can’t be either of them.
Considering that for so long my mind has been full of her—what she means to me—maybe she would have to make me really dislike her to break this. I don’t see any signs of that. I’ll try to interact with LO, starting now!
This is indeed my personality problem. When I’m alone, I just can’t get satisfaction outside games. Looking at a screenshot album and seeing what I did at different times also makes me a little happy. Games are like modern Salon paintings, made by humans (until now). But I understand you very well! Having someone important to you addicted to games is indeed very painful. I also have a close relative who went through this.
Yes, I need to be optimistic! You’re absolutely right. I also think it’s a false sense of “inferiority”. It’s because of withdrawal that I hate it so much.
I totally agree that everyone’s path is different. I also only want to be with someone I’m sure I can walk through life with. Thank you!
Walking through life together while physically apart is indeed very moving, like old friends who have shared an intimate experience. I heard that Gregory Peck didn’t attend Audrey Hepburn’s funeral due to health reasons?
Communication can happen with friends, even about relatively private thoughts. Sexual desire can be dealt with on one’s own. If one can’t find a life partner, animals at least won’t hurt one. That’s my current superficial view.
It seems birds raised or rescued by humans easily choose humans as partners, depending on how the human responds. It seems Crowe didn’t have a partner? Relationships beyond the body are also romantic, in my understanding.
😲! I also think being with her would change me a lot, but I didn’t realize that even she as LO might be able to change me. Before, I didn’t see any benefit; the only thing I could recognize was the freedom after getting out of LE. I’ll look into it. Thank you for your insight!
I want to change my false sense of “inferiority.” I’m too afraid that in front of more outstanding people, my liking will seem ridiculous. On the day I asked for her contact info, she sent “Thank you, you’re also excellent!” That sentence really stuck with me. I’m afraid that after she gets to know me, she’ll find out I’m a “bad student” 🫤. But for a real relationship, that doesn’t matter at all! Until I feel that a friend or partner trusts me, I won’t show “clinginess.”
I’m not sure what’s special about that friend. Maybe it’s because his personality is interesting. For me, being with him is very comfortable.
For my situation, making even awkward attempts does seem better than NC. I’ll try now!
I hope that “interest” hasn’t been killed yet. Even if it has disappeared, it’s worth trying. Maybe she is just nice to everyone. I think LE is indeed rare. Be brave and try! Thank you for your guidance!
I absolutely don’t want another 3 years of LE. If I can’t be calm and natural, I hope she can understand my awkwardness. I’ll try to be relaxed and casual. I won’t ask about what confuses me most, but I don’t know if I can ask lighter questions, like: was she wearing glasses at the time? 🤔
I’m sure she won’t mock me, but I’m not sure whether she can appreciate this. I’ll find out. Because I know so little about her, I don’t seem able to truly like her yet. I can’t achieve a nobler kind of love. I’ll first try to get out of LE.
No matter what, I’ll make changes. Best wishes to you and TT-Two!🥰
LO replied. It seems LO didn’t change me the way I imagined. I hope this ridiculous limerence ends here. Thank you for your encouragement and guidance—I’ve really learned a lot. I’ve written my immediate feelings below. 😉
Anvil,
I’m sorry that you got a bitter NO from your LO, but also felt a relief that now you don’t have to ruminate Yes or No questions nonstop.
Your imagination of LO hasn’t changed because you still don’t know her. I strongly suspect her rejection is related to her orientation (outlawed in China). I’m quite surprised that she dared to hint herself homosexuality, considering it’s such a taboo over there.
“As I understand it, romance helps us choose a “good friend for life”? In some way, this isn’t chosen by our rational selves. It’s really marvelous.”
I don’t think romance helps in terms to choose a “good friend” for life or even for a short period of time. Friendship depends on personality of a potential friend; in romance, our mind is mostly “illogical” but all emotional, blurring our discerning eyes to see who a potential friend is.
Friendship is usually formed without any romance, after a short or long while of knowing someone. You’re right that close, deep communication can/should take place among good friends with just easy/calm affections, like you with your “special”, interesting friend who makes you feel very comfortable.
I’m not sure how relationships beyond the body can be romantic; romance usually involves strong emotional attractions that are required/strengthened by our bodily/sensory knowledge about a romantic candidate. I found intellectual bonding, purely based on words, is insufficient to form a romantic connection, but a strong camaraderie.
Animal can be better than friends as consistent, affectionate, and loyal companions who can well sympathize our emotions, but can’t use human languages to share and empathize our deep thoughts.
You’re still too young to think about not ever finding a life-partner down your path. Please have a faith that whether you want to or not, you’ll bump into a lot of potential candidates.
Now after your first limerence, I’m sure you’d be much more observant and aware of your future crushes after a glimmer takes place. Don’t wait too long but take concrete actions to either ensure LO’s reciprocation for dating or to wave a painless goodbye, so no uncertainty could breed/grow to a giant, uncontrollable limerence.
I don’t know if “fatalism” is still strong in the Red system. Traditionally, Fate plays a big role especially in ordinary people’s life. Like Stoicism in the West, the notion of “deserve” rarely existed: life is whimsical, fair or cruel randomly. Life is not about what one should or “deserves” to have (or not have), but about one’s efforts making along with the Fate’s spinning wheel.
Without carrying or stressing this notion in the head, one is most unlikely to feel deep resentment/anger towards unfavorable situations, injustice or mistreatment; s/he would face the harsh reality with serenity while trying to make something best out of their special strengths (despite the nagging sense of “inferiority”).
All my best wishes to you! 🫂
To ❄️
I’m glad I finally took a step. I still need to adapt to what I’ll be like after getting out of LE—it feels like a part of me is empty. This is a good chance for me to fill it by myself.
To some extent I’m sure of one thing: I completely don’t understand her, and I’ve ruled out some of my LE brain’s speculations. As for the relationship between sexual orientation and society, there seems to be a misunderstanding. I’ll add what I personally know: the only problem is the marriage certificate. Legally, same-sex marriage isn’t recognized, but it’s not a taboo. When I was underage, I guessed I was gay because of my social relationships. I believe this isn’t an isolated case. In terms of group acceptance, only gay men might be “awkward” to some people, rather than lesbians. Judging from her refusal to chat, I think my behavior was just too “boring” to her.
If being with a partner means walking together all the way, at least you need to get along. And on some non-romantic topics, like career and private topics, what you do with a friend is the same, right? 😉 Maybe my personality isn’t very independent, so I put many needs on others. Currently my expectation for a partner is a friend with a romantic relationship. I think I probably need actual experience to correct this.
For the same reason, for me sex and romance are somewhat separate, even though both “override reason” for me. In my imagination, descriptions of sex would interfere with romance, while adversity, different species, and death can highlight romance. But through songs I also feel that two people glued only by sex without extra feelings are equally romantic. Maybe I just separate physical contact and sexual desire too much 🤔, while in real life they happen at the same time. I need to slowly experience it.
I agree that words can’t convey romance, but romance doesn’t need language or deep thinking either. It only needs contact, companionship, and possessiveness. I’m starting to believe she isn’t the only one. I’ll try not to think about it, not refer to LO, and wait for glimmer to suddenly appear. With this painful lesson, I’m sure I absolutely don’t want it to happen again. Don’t withdraw, no uncertainty 😣
“Fatalism” seems to only appear in religion. I think it’s a kind of control? I’m not sure if I mentioned it. If I did, it was just a metaphor for what has already happened. I strongly agree with your view on fate. The Red system promotes materialism, and religious activities aren’t allowed in public places. I think non-joking fatalism would only appear among religious people.
I’ll try to learn something from this lesson. My meaningless withdrawal indeed brought short-term escape and long-term pain. I need to remind myself to overcome that strange sense of “inferiority”.
Thank you very much for your and TT-Two’s selfless and patient guidance. I’ve learned a lot and have started to recover.
I wish you all the best and happiness every day! 🥰
I guess it’s one of the cases with the least actual interaction.
Basically, it’s falling into limerence for a stranger and confessing for the first time at 21 (it must mean something to me, right? right? 🥲), then ten months later asking for an explicit rejection. She did as asked, which helped me a lot, but it wasn’t quite explicit enough for the limerent in me. She even added “men with feminine qualities” (oh god, I feel like it was a hint from her).
Anvil,
“Yes, I never imagined it would be like this. Everything that happened—every step was wrong in exactly the right way.”
Are you saying that your every misstep actually led to “the right way” — your wished destination? In what ways?
“She’s very gentle, so I guess she’ll try to understand.”
You have to trust your intuition here, even just partially.
“Being someone else’s LO would be pleasant. “
Not necessarily. It depends on who limerent is: a) intense eye “stalker”/stranger; b) pleasing acquaintance; c) subtle /bawdy flirt; d) shy/aloof gentle (wo)man; e) amicable/good friend…etc.
It also depends on who LO is: secure/insecure; earthen/vain, self-content/validation hungry; altruistic/self-centered; Stoic/clingy; healed/ongoing trauma “survivor”, empathetic/insensitive; etc…
“As for the pressure, I later added that what I’m infatuated with is the fantasy in my mind, so I hope there won’t be.”
As long as you didn’t often appear in her (physical or online) vicinity, she wouldn’t feel “pressured”. Moreover, if she already knows about LE, then she’d understand what your “infatuation with the phantom” means.
“I still hold out hope for this (or poison?).”
I don’t DrL or other researchers would ever call it “poison” but a temporary “loss of the mind” (in Ancient Grace and the current Far East) — the altered state of the mind. So you still intuitively think/feel there is hope for your LE to be reciprocated?
“Last year I was a senior and she was a freshman; I guess there might be room to figure yourself out at that age.”
Are you referring her (18 or 19 yrs) or yourself here for having the “room”? Are you a graduate student now?
“But I can only wait and try to look elsewhere—don’t look into the pit.😖”
“Look elsewhere” for what? Realistically, you have 80 more years and the whole globe to bump into your new LOs. 💭
“I hope it is reasonable—it’s so strange. Written descriptions can’t make me understand myself. “
That’s what LE could make one feel/think, especially before knowing what LE is.
“A back with little information: when I see someone who might be her, I try to identify them and then find it’s not her, but I can recognize her almost at a glance. “
You’re saying no one else is like her in her aura, and your LE eyes could immediately spot her, as if you knew her from the past?
“Before I became aware of limerence, this experience made me decide that I’d either be with someone I “like” or not date at all, and then I’d know whether she is unique.”
It’s smart not to date/shop around for one’s future mate, people are not objects/products but sentient beings who are constantly changing/evolving for better or worse.
Yes, “Liking” should be the initial to get to know someone for a possible long-term pair-bonding. In other words, one needs at least a mild glimmer (60% + ) to “see” someone. (If both sides are available)
“Another strange thing: I can imagine what kind of body I’d like, but hers isn’t it. “
Perhaps you over-trust your imagination? Human imagination is one thing, mysterious DNA drive is another; yet acquired eclectic tastes is another. It depends on one’s culture/art acquisition and the mind’s (not brain’s) plasticity.
“Before I saw her, I couldn’t imagine going crazy over a back, and her face is quite lovely and unique. Romantic and sexual orientations don’t seem to align; maybe it’s just an independent glimmer. I don’t know the reason.”
You romanticized most for her bare back in the summer Sunlight? Not eyes or “lovely face”? Your glimmer is indeed unique! 🦄 Don’t worry, NOT a single person in the history can definite what glimmer is to each individual or how a Cupid’s arrow affects a “victim”’s heart!
“I switched to another campus in the same city. It’s convenient for commuting, but I won’t see her. Next year I might go to another city (at least I can be with friends). “
How long have you’ve been in NC physically? (No online contact?) Has LE lessened somewhat?
“There is an “ambition”, but I can’t bother her. I’ve decided to wait until after she graduates to see if things change.”
“Wait” for what? What sort of “things” do you expect to possibly change within three years? What would you do meanwhile? You’d contact her again three years later? Do you know where you’d be by then?
“I’m interested in this psychological phenomenon—the experience, interesting biological facts, and similar people—maybe out of curiosity.”
So you’d use yourself (and “similar people”), as example to learn more about limerence? Perhaps you can study to become a professional therapist specializing in limerence?
To TT-Two
Thank you for your concern! I never imagined I’d be treated so warmly.
I think if I had made my mistakes differently, the uncertainty would be somewhat reduced.
I’m probably the shy stranger type. My LO seems well-liked but always appears alone—quiet, special, charming—but if I try to understand her, she’s an ordinary, gentle person.
Given the way she smiled at me and her single status, if she ever changed her orientation, I guess I’d be an option. But I can only wait. If hope keeps limerence burning, it poisons my current life.
“Room” refers to her, maybe also me. I took a gap year due to academic issues; maybe I’ll start grad school next year.
I hope there will be a new LO, otherwise it would be too unfair.🙂 I feel like a stray dog that got used to its own life but then chose a passerby as its owner.
As for her aura, I don’t feel like I knew her before, but like she’s on a different layer from everyone else. Right now I still can’t imagine liking anyone else.
If I had seen her photo before meeting my LO, I probably wouldn’t have been infatuated. What really pulled me into limerence was probably reality—just now, the one who passed by was that cute back I’ve been thinking about that whole day!
It was November: a black overcoat, loose hair, a black backpack and gloves, covering a small body—quiet, mysterious (looked like a kid in grown-up clothes? No weird intentions, I swear!). I never thought I’d be fascinated by a girl like that. When I asked for her contact info, she moved her hair aside, and I saw her face clearly for the first time—cute, fair, with a surprising number of moles, but the next moment I already liked them, like spots on an animal. I guess even without limerence I would have liked her.
Two things: what I don’t want to admit is that she looks a bit like my middle school classmate who sat next to me, whom I once liked, but that’s not the glimmer. Strangers often take me for a middle schooler. I’m not sure if that’s related to my glimmer.
It’s been 10 months without contact, and it hasn’t lessened. It may have gotten worse after graduation and being separated from classmates. When I run into her by chance, I’m numb for a long time—weak all over. When I collapse in a chair, listening to music and thinking about her actually feels kind of good. But more often, LE is a long bitter ache all over my body.
A temporary thought: if she’s still single three years later, I’ll contact her and ask her out. In the meantime, maybe I’ll try not to think about her and focus on my own life? I don’t know if I can do it. Three years later I might still be in school, but I might be able to choose where to go.
Yes, I’m very interested in this phenomenon, but I guess it’s too late to make it an actual career. I thought I should have studied art, but in the end I studied engineering. I only realized it when I found I wasn’t interested at all in what was in front of me, but it was already too late. It doesn’t matter. I don’t know what the other possibility would have been either.🫤
Anvil,
“I think if I had made my mistakes differently, the uncertainty would be somewhat reduced.”
It could be. Every limerent has made big or small regrettable mistakes during their LE, which either worsened or bettered their LE pains.
“I’m probably the shy stranger type. My LO seems well-liked but always appears alone—quiet, special, charming—but if I try to understand her, she’s an ordinary, gentle person.”
It Sounds like you’re a shy, lone gentleman, and your LO is a “domesticated”, lone wolf 🐺. Seeing her as “ordinary” is “beneficial” to your mind.
“Given the way she smiled at me and her single status, if she ever changed her orientation, I guess I’d be an option. But I can only wait. If hope keeps limerence burning, it poisons my current life.”
I highly suspect you’d be a preferred option, but how long do you think you’re willing to wait? Is it wise or worthwhile to wait since the LE is “poisoning” 😨 your current life?
““Room” refers to her, maybe also me. I took a gap year due to academic issues; maybe I’ll start grad school next year.”
If you’re in a public college, then study there as long as possible. There is no need to rush to workplace with insufficient knowledge or pragmatical trainings.
“I feel like a stray dog that got used to its own life but then chose a passerby as its owner.”
It sounds like a “stray dog” bumped into a“domesticated lone -wolf” ?🙃 Perhaps that’s why just her clothed back drew your inner 👁️ … You two might have originated from the same “mammal” lineage.
“As for her aura, I don’t feel like I knew her before, but like she’s on a different layer from everyone else. Right now I still can’t imagine liking anyone else.”
She’s unique with a lone-wolf aura that you somehow spotted, which never occurred before?
“If I had seen her photo before meeting my LO, I probably wouldn’t have been infatuated. “
Two dimensional photos could hardly get anyone crushed, let alone glimmer infatuated, at most “interested” or a bit “attracted”. But it’s easier NOT to like someone based on their photos, quite unfair!
“It was November: a black overcoat, loose hair, a black backpack and gloves, covering a small body—quiet, mysterious (looked like a kid in grown-up clothes? No weird intentions, I swear!). I never thought I’d be fascinated by a girl like that. “
Again, no one knows how a Glimmer is set off… at a particular LO.
“When I asked for her contact info, she moved her hair aside, and I saw her face clearly for the first time—cute, fair, with a surprising number of moles, but the next moment I already liked them, like spots on an animal. I guess even without limerence I would have liked her.”
So she looks like a Dalmatian “lone-wolf”? 😙 (just humoring a bit).
“Two things: what I don’t want to admit is that she looks a bit like my middle school classmate who sat next to me, whom I once liked, but that’s not the glimmer. “
She reminded you of your first sweetheart in your budding age, no wonder!
“Strangers often take me for a middle schooler. I’m not sure if that’s related to my glimmer.”
Could be. It’s said here that one in LE heat looks younger and blooming, often drawing others’ wonder…
“It’s been 10 months without contact, and it hasn’t lessened. It may have gotten worse after graduation and being separated from classmates.”
So NC didn’t work for you, that’s too bad! But you’re not the first one here, there were limerents in the rekindled/relapsed LE pains after a total NC of several decades. I really feel sorry for them and you. 🥺
“When I run into her by chance, I’m numb for a long time—weak all over. When I collapse in a chair, listening to music and thinking about her actually feels kind of good. But more often, LE is a long bitter ache all over my body.”
I’m so sorry 😢 to hear your specific, unbearable LE symptoms! I had some in my XLE, but not so severe. I never estimated that LE “chemical (re)action” could work like “poison” in one’s neurons. It’s no exaggerations to call it a “chemical addiction”.
“A temporary thought: if she’s still single three years later, I’ll contact her and ask her out. “
Why do you have to wait for 3 years just to “ask her out”? Why not sooner? 🧐 Are you not worried that she’d bump into other young men in the campus? Gender change could take place slow or fast at any given time, right?
“In the meantime, maybe I’ll try not to think about her and focus on my own life? I don’t know if I can do it. “
The moment the mind tries/determines NOT to think about something, that thing sticks stronger/deeper in the head. Could you just watch her/your LE flowing in and out of your system without too much resistance but as a norm? Meanwhile, you still try to focus on your life, your academic goals, or vent off your LE stress here in LwL?
“Three years later I might still be in school, but I might be able to choose where to go.”
Why “three years” is such a significant number/period in your life? Please don’t feel obligated to answer any of my curiosity.
“Yes, I’m very interested in this phenomenon, but I guess it’s too late to make it an actual career. “
Actually, I know several middle-aged people (musicians, painters) chose to study psychology and become a licensed therapist. In that field, age is not so important as those IT professionals/engineers required super fast mind.
“I thought I should have studied art, but in the end I studied engineering. I only realized it when I found I wasn’t interested at all in what was in front of me, but it was already too late. “
Then abandon it! In such a short human life, one can’t do well or achieve a meaningful goals by doing what s/he is uninterested. It’s never too later to study and train something new. I’ve personally known a grandma who got her Ph.D in Art History at age of 84, after raised her children and helped her grandchildren. She so wanted to complete something that she had started, for her own fulfillment! She beamed like a kid in her Doctoral Graduation gown!
“It doesn’t matter. I don’t know what the other possibility would have been either.🫤”
See the above. There is a shortage in qualified therapies all over places. Perhaps you can think about it and do some research? Also, in psychology, one needs broaden knowledge in arts, cultures, literature, history, religions/spirituality… and other liberal arts/humanity fields.
Gosh, you’re still so young… the whole professional world 🌎 is still wide open to you…
To TT-Two
Thank you. I always feel I made the mistake that worsened my LE the most. Maybe that’s part of LE.
I’m not sure whether she is a “lone wolf.” She replies to most people online and even calls other girls “hubby”. Maybe I know too little about her. She seems kinda free-spirited, while I’m not, so maybe I can’t understand her well.
I don’t know. I only started liking her in my senior year, and she still has three years until graduation. She should enjoy her college time. I feel I shouldn’t disturb her. I don’t know if it’s wise 😞. Also, I can’t guarantee where I’ll end up or my ability to date, while I don’t want to completely snuff out this possibility.
Because of my personality, I’m clearly in a better mood and more optimistic at school, though in some ways I don’t fit in.
It seems that she is similar to me in some unknown way. I think that fuels limerence, but I’m not sure if it’s common, whether the feeling is right, and what that represents.
The occurrence of Glimmer is really magical. I never thought I’d like a petite girl. I’m not sure how it formed, but I’m starting to understand why I like her.
Another thought: before college I suffered long-term domestic abuse, and it seems to have kept part of my inner self from growing up? My face looks like a kid’s. Might be the reason for the feeling of fondness. A kid liking another kid?
I only ran into her once. She had changed a bit, but I recognized her at a glance. The numbness that time left a deep impression. It was a bit like the initial feeling, only my heart no longer pounded.
I think NC might be useful, but the pain of LE may be intensified by an empty life. After leaving school and classmates during summer vacation, the occasional, rare “calm” made me feel happy. Also, in this case, I always hold onto a hope that requires a long wait. My motivation to stop this hope is too weak—it’s just my life that needs saving.
I don’t want to disturb her college life. I might go to another school next year. The move toward her may be irresponsible. If she ends up with a guy/girl, it would be a relief. Maybe I’ll fail to endure the wait first.
I’ll try to get used to it. It’s much better now, but there are signs of worsening again, and I’m a bit worried about that. I’m not sure whether, when I lose control, I should ask her to end it again😂.
As mentioned above, I have no idea about time. It’s only been 10 months, and I might not be able to hold on 😮💨.
I really need a stable income to get away from the family I hate. Even if I find I’ve already gone the wrong way, when I have my own job (even just grad school), I’ll try to learn about these—drawing and psychology. When I first got a taste of being free from limerence, I immediately realized why people who are free from limerence are willing to help others. This self-binding experience needs help, and is also very much not worth it. If I have the chance, I’ll try. Sometimes I listen to friends vent, analyze and give advice. That might also be part of the practice—becoming an amateur therapist. I’ll look into it, thank you!
Addition: As for the feeling of LE, maybe this is the price of knowing yourself. If it weren’t painful enough, we might not realize it’s limerence, let alone find effective ways to free ourselves from it—like having been through a particular illness.
My record of the shift: Even if separated by only a thin surface of water and a faint dream, what is seen is completely different.
What I see is a hormone-wrapped blur, sleepwalking on the nighttime street, not recognizing him. He can read aloud all the words on the page, can judge whether a passage is right or wrong, can even continue writing it, but he can never truly understand, unless he is no longer him.
Addition 2: To me, the aura never occurred before, kind of mysteriously lovely. This is only her look in winter; I hope it isn’t unique.
It’s because of LO that I started to understand why moles can be an adornment (an urge to kiss😣). Sometimes I realize that what I like is a fantasy, but I only realize it.
Something interesting: in all her selfies she’s wearing glasses, but in all my memories—even after seeing her selfies—I have no impression of glasses. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m face-blind, the frames are too thin, or whether this is an allegory about fantasy.
I’m still preparing for my studies. The real obstacle is that it’s hard for me to focus on things I’m not interested in. I’ll try to deal with it.
Anvil,
“My record of the shift: Even if separated by only a thin surface of water and a faint dream, what is seen is completely different.
What I see is a hormone-wrapped blur, sleepwalking on the nighttime street, not recognizing him. He can read aloud all the words on the page, can judge whether a passage is right or wrong, can even continue writing it, but he can never truly understand, unless he is no longer him.”
The above is very difficult to understand; “him” is referred to the dreamer, the LE experiencer, God? Is it your LE initiated and intensified by “hormone- wrapped blur”?
It reminds me an incomprehensible poem that might echo your passage —
*****
That This
Susan Howe
1937 –
Day is a type when visible
objects change then put
on form but the anti-type
That thing not shadowed
The way music is formed of
cloud and fire once actually
concrete now accidental as
half truth or as whole truth
Is light anything like this
stray pencil commonplace
copy as to one aberrant
onward-gliding mystery
A secular arietta variation
Grass angels perish in this
harmonic collision because
non-being cannot be ‘this’
Not spirit not space finite
Not infinite to those fixed—
That this millstone as such
Quiet which side on which—
Is one mind put into another
in us unknown to ourselves
by going about among trees
and fields in moonlight or in
a garden to ease distance to
fetch home spiritual things
That a solitary person bears
witness to law in the ark to
an altar of snow and every
age or century for a day is
******
To TT-Two
I’m not good at writing. I just like this metaphor 😂. People inside and outside LE can’t really understand each other. I feel like an empty shell that has been injected with a soul, and no longer recognize my former self. After getting a taste of what it’s like to be out of LE, I feel my LE self is like a sleeper trying to get up with eyes closed the whole time. I can feel the outside world, yet there’s a filter over it. Even if I know how limerence controls me, I still can’t wake up. Maybe true consciousness doesn’t exist in the flesh.
This poem is indeed incomprehensible. Maybe before understanding it, one needs to have experienced a similar feeling.
Anvil,
“People inside and outside LE can’t really understand each other.
True. Even Limerents’ LEs are all different from each other depending on their biological and psychological markers, and their cultural conditioning.
“I feel like an empty shell that has been injected with a soul, and no longer recognize my former self. After getting a taste of what it’s like to be out of LE, I feel my LE self is like a sleeper trying to get up with eyes closed the whole time. I can feel the outside world, yet there’s a filter over it. Even if I know how limerence controls me, I still can’t wake up.”
That’s a very vivid LE description, “visible” and understandable! Some limerents here can relate to it.
“Maybe true consciousness doesn’t exist in the flesh.”
Well, the brain itself is flesh that produces and contains consciousness.
“To me, the aura never occurred before, kind of mysteriously lovely. This is only her look in winter; I hope it isn’t unique.”
Sounds like it’s your first big infatuation/LE — everything you saw/see on her would be UNIQUE. Check how she looks like in summer, spring, fall and after your LE’s gone.
“It’s because of LO that I started to understand why moles can be an adornment (an urge to kiss). Sometimes I realize that what I like is a fantasy, but I only realize it.”
Indeed. You can even exclaim, “it’s because of LO (along with Dalmatians) that I understand where Yayoi Kusama‘s genius inspiration came from! “
“Something interesting: in all her selfies she’s wearing glasses, but in all my memories—even after seeing her selfies—I have no impression of glasses. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m face-blind, the frames are too thin, or whether this is an allegory about fantasy.”
You’re not face-blind, but wear liemrence filtering, rosy lens — “an allegory about fantasy.”
When your LE fades away one day, everything on her face might “stand out” through your ordinary lens… which would be the time to test whether your “love” for her exists and can continue.
Anvil,
“I always feel I made the mistake that worsened my LE the most. Maybe that’s part of LE.”
You might never fully understand what you did (right or wrong) until you come out of LE. Outsiders sometimes clearly see obvious mistakes limerent made or are making, but they themselves either refused to admit or stubbornly kept doing so. At least, you’re self aware, getting some inklings.
“I’m not sure whether she is a “lone wolf.” She replies to most people online and even calls other girls “hubby”. “
Are you on her SM? In reality, with 1~100k followers on a SM, one could still lead a “lone wolf” life. Your observation of her in-person activities in campus would tell more about the realistic her, even just superficially.
“Maybe I know too little about her. She seems kinda free-spirited, while I’m not, so maybe I can’t understand her well.”
Until you directly communicate or interact with her, you know basically nothing about her, aside from her appearance in a public arena. There is little/no way that you can understand her yet, whether she’s free-spirited or not. So far, much imagination is going on in your LE head.
“I don’t know. I only started liking her in my senior year, and she still has three years until graduation. She should enjoy her college time. I feel I shouldn’t disturb her. I don’t know if it’s wise 😞. “
Do you know whether she has enjoyed/suffered her first year of college? How do you know your future interaction would surely “disturb” her? What about befriending her after you remove LE on your own?
“Also, I can’t guarantee where I’ll end up or my ability to date, while I don’t want to completely snuff out this possibility.”
Relocation due to a right career calling often leads to an end of romance, friendship, and even love. You both are too young to settle for anything, even if you are seriously dating (there are few exceptions with mutual LE + love knot during college)
You doubt you have ability to date? Can you go to some experienced friends or aunts/uncles asking for dating advice? Or watch YouTube’s relationship coaches?
“Because of my personality, I’m clearly in a better mood and more optimistic at school, though in some ways I don’t fit in.”
School is temporarily brain-training (how to learn and think) ground, no one is “fitted” to stay there for too long, unless you want to get a Ph.D and eventually teach at a college. Do you think your personality could be helped with therapy before you go to the job market?
“It seems that she is similar to me in some unknown way. I think that fuels limerence, but I’m not sure if it’s common, whether the feeling is right, and what that represents.”
It’s possible that you’re feeling are “right”. However, we learn from LwL that a lot of feelings inside Limerents’ head is just one’s wishful thinking or imaginations. Only in hindsight’s, they realize it.
Any type of uncertainty in LE fuels limerence. Rarely, some feelings are “right”, but they can be confirmed only after interacting with LO and getting direct answers from them.
“The occurrence of Glimmer is really magical. I never thought I’d like a petite girl. I’m not sure how it formed, but I’m starting to understand why I like her.”
Are you too tall for a petite girl? A Glimmer rarely takes place with reasons immediately known. After your NC of 10 months, what do you understand about your Glimmer?
“Another thought: before college I suffered long-term domestic abuse, and it seems to have kept part of my inner self from growing up? “
It could be true. You should discuss this with a therapist. Do you have an access to them?
“My face looks like a kid’s. Might be the reason for the feeling of fondness. A kid liking another kid?”
Yes. A kid can easily spot kid-like sprit in a grownup. So your LO also comes across like a kid?
“I only ran into her once. She had changed a bit, but I recognized her at a glance. The numbness that time left a deep impression. It was a bit like the initial feeling, only my heart no longer pounded.”
If you run into her more times and get to know her more, your LE would reduce its initial strength or dial down significantly.
“I think NC might be useful, but the pain of LE may be intensified by an empty life. “
Do you think the “empty life” is a (partial) cause of your LE? If so, then regardless of having LE or not, you’d want to first fulfill that “empty life”, right?
“After leaving school and classmates during summer vacation, the occasional, rare “calm” made me feel happy. “
So you tasted the temporary “calmness” during LO’s/LE’s absence?
“Also, in this case, I always hold onto a hope that requires a long wait. My motivation to stop this hope is too weak—it’s just my life that needs saving.”
Is this hope related to your career or LO? How could your life be saved? by whom (outside your abusive family)?
“The move toward her may be irresponsible. If she ends up with a guy/girl, it would be a relief. Maybe I’ll fail to endure the wait first.”
You’re very kind and considerate for her, despite your LE. It’s certainly possible that she date a woman/man whether you’re around or not. Meanwhile, you may fail the wait, or bump into another potential LO. A collage is a romance-inflammable “rattle-ground” for every eligible student with sky-rocking hormone.
“I’ll try to get used to it. It’s much better now, but there are signs of worsening again, and I’m a bit worried about that. I’m not sure whether, when I lose control, I should ask her to end it again.”
Based on some reports here, LE could go up and down, relapse repeatedly, and even last for decades; please be prepared or determine to “kill” it. Why do you think your LO could end your LE, after she failed first time after your disclosed? Why couldn’t you end it after knowing she’s a lesbian?
“I really need a stable income to get away from the family I hate. “
Being able to make one’s own living brings one grounding confidence, regardless of their family background. Also working in one’s preferred profession brings substantial contentment, if not consistent joy.
“When I first got a taste of being free from limerence, I immediately realized why people who are free from limerence are willing to help others. This self-binding experience needs help, and is also very much not worth it. “
That’s the goal of DrL’s website and Youtube videos. He even gives up his regular university job so as to follow this benevolent calling, helping out thousands or millions of ignorantly suffering liemrents currently or down the road.
“If I have the chance, I’ll try. Sometimes I listen to friends vent, analyze and give advice. That might also be part of the practice—becoming an amateur therapist. I’ll look into it”.
As long as you don’t charge anyone as an amateur therapist, it’s a great practice to lend your sympathetic and empathetic ears to those who are in need, and give them your advice, regardless of whether or how they take them.
Many times, people in emotional/mental pains, especially in “self-bending” LE, need just a patient, understanding ear. It’s up to each limerent to truly get rid of their limerence and its root.
To TT-Two
I want to say that my instincts interfered with my brain—some cyberpunk stuff, The Flesh is Weak & Synthetic Evolution (just kidding!) 🤪
I guess she was also surprised that she could fascinate a stranger in that way. It seems she also rejected some classmates who liked her. I worry I’m just “another one”. Sometimes I realize that in other seasons I wouldn’t fall into LE (except autumn?). But after recognizing her face, I couldn’t test that anymore.
I’ve really never seen anything like this—like a gentle version of ink spots splashed on white paper, concentrated around her face. A stray dog infatuated with a passing Dalmatian? 😳
I have mild face blindness. I once had this experience: “Two months later, two people appeared in front of me at the same time, and only then did I realize they weren’t the same person.🫣” But I would never forget the glasses—rose-colored lenses! I’m very curious how I’ll see her after completely getting out of LE. I’ve always tried to understand her, but I only have a rough guess, and I realize that she is too different for me to understand.
—
During NC, I kept thinking about those tiny bits of information. I formed different judgments about her from different angles, only to find in the end that I knew nothing about her. For example, her profile picture was an abstract painting of a woman. After thinking about it for a long time, I realized it was just a meaningless avatar that no one else would happen to use 😂.
Maybe I should try to get to know her by chatting. But if I come across as serious because of nervousness, it would probably bother her. If I can get rid of LE, maybe I don’t need to be friends with her?
Uncertainty about where I’ll end up is also one of the reasons I plan to wait. I’ve seen people break up because of long distance, while my friend and his partner fell in love during long distance after knowing each other for a long time.
I’ve asked friends for advice. If following their advice can help me date normally, I think I will!
I haven’t tried it. It seems I’m happier at school—partly because of “a society of peers,” and partly because I have mild PTSD at home. I’m not sure if I’m suited for work, though I probably could be. From the perspective of mood alone, therapy doesn’t seem to be an urgent need.
Yes, only by knowing her better can I be sure of this. I can only judge from her speaking habits and the small details I’ve learned about her. The “common ground” I feel may be wrong, or it may be something that naturally overlaps between anyone.
I’m not tall. I don’t know if guys can be “too tall” in girls’ eyes. From my memory, the Glimmer was probably her mysteriously cute back (and scarf), and her face didn’t break that.
I haven’t contacted a therapist. I’ve only discussed it with friends, and I’m not very willing to recall it again. My friend once went to a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist suggested he leave (maybe he went to the wrong place 😂). If my personality might affect my work, I would definitely get therapy.
Yes, at first I felt my LO was childlike to some extent? Although I can’t explain why. It wasn’t because of height. Maybe it was set off by the black overcoat, backpack, gloves, and scarf? I really regret avoiding the places where I might run into her in the days after. I was just afraid she would see me, but I didn’t realize what was happening, and it might have intensified the LE.
I think an “empty life” intensified the LE. Even without LE, I would want to fulfill it. After leaving school and classmates, the LE clearly worsened. Calm became rare, and I was happy whenever I realized I was in a calm state.
The “hope” is related to LO. If I completely break the LE and this hope, maybe I can save my life and studies. But it only involves me, and I don’t have a very clear plan for it.
If she ends up with someone else, that means my fantasies are all false. I really hope I can meet another LO. I tried to imagine it but failed—it’s like the dominoes inside me have already fallen, and for now I can’t stand them up again and arrange them into another pattern. Another doubt: I met my first LO in my senior year, and she was still a freshman. I know limerents may have many LOs in their lifetime. I just can’t imagine such a low-probability event happening.
Because of her smile and interest shown in me (maybe just my feeling) and my own experiences (confusion, having been suspected of being gay), I guess the future might be different. When I asked for an explicit rejection, my LO didn’t reject me personally. Instead, she said she likes girls, and if she were to want a guy, he would need to have “feminine qualities”. At first I was relieved, but gradually couldn’t help thinking about it. If she had rejected me personally, or if I could have feminine qualities (I think I can), the situation would be clear. I’m just afraid of bothering her again. Maybe I really can take action if LE gets worse and not be afraid of awkwardness—I need to be prepared first.
I feel that once I have my own income, my life will be under my control, and I can also have my own pets. This is why I’m full of hope for the future. About 20 days ago, I ran into a teacher. He thought I was a freshman but didn’t see any parents, so he started chatting with me. He told me that I “could” keep pets in grad school 🥰. Maybe change is not far away.
I admire this utopia-like place and the warm people here! For now, I only talk about these things with friends, but I think I’m a good listener, and I am willing to help others. I will try to completely get out of it. Thank you!
Anvil,
I want to be a bit more “rational” here, please forgive my directness.
Cyberpunk stuff seems to be highly technological, not sure how it’s related to classical romance or limerence. .
I don’t think you need to be worried to be “another one”, because a girl with a Dalmatian face in any society is more likely very self-conscious, possibly treated as a social “outcast”, which is very unfair and cruel. That might be your LO’s surprise by your amorous interest.
If you LO could truly see herself as a beautiful “Dalmatian”, then she’d be very interested in Dalmatian lovers. Please don’t put yourself down as an unwanted “stray dog”, which would worsen your “avoidance” and “withdrawal”.
No one, including yourself, can know how you LO would appear in your eyes when your LE is gone. Due to limited/little realistic knowledge about her, you can neither understand nor misunderstand her. That’s why your imagination is still rocking the sky.
If you chat with your LO, the nervousness/awkwardness and seriousness could be reduced with increasing contact and time. If bothered, she’d subtly let you know or back up. Moreover, her “interest” and friendliness can speed up such a reduction. By staying NC, they’d never go away, even for a next LO.
Whether you’d want to befriend her after your LE fades away, is a matter only you could know in the future, when you’d have matured more.
Long distance more than often breaks up young/unsettled couples; only in rare cases, they manage to stay together, but not for too long though. It’s too early for you to worry about this now, when you don’t even know whether you could be “coupled” with the girl.
A choice between career and relationship, involving relocation, is always a tough choice for many couples at some points of their life.
Asking friends for dating advice is just one option, please keep in mind that their dating experience may not apply to you, due to your different personalities. The same goes with watching relationship coaching videos. Sometimes happily married (older) people could give you bitter but wise cautions to prevent usual/unique headaches of a romance/relationship.
If your ptsd could possibly affect your future employment, then it’s somewhat serious, and seeking a therapy should be considered soon. It takes a long time to reduce/eliminate PTSD impact, which could be a big root of your ‘awkwardness, ‘avoidance’, withdrawal’, etc.
The “common ground” between you and LO can only be defined after you get to know each other more. There is always a common ground between any two individuals, never “none” or “total” in sync.
The phenomenon that you glimmered at LO’s back and her “artsy” face didn’t break it is amazing, which is not on DrL’s list for Glimmer factors.
There is an inner ‘child’ in everyone, alive or buried. Your LO’s inner “child” might be still vitally breathing, so you felt it. Just like a dog can spot dog lovers instantly, an “inner child” could sense another one easily and be attracted. Maybe not in romance, but in friendship and love, childlike curiosity and “innocence” for life and the whole world is adorable and desirable, as long as their grownup rationality is not absent or compromised.
It seems that your NC has indeed intensified the LE, due to its vague certainty and the perceived uncertainty in your head.
It’s very common that an “empty life” or an inner psychological “hole” leads to and intensify a LE. One has to fulfill IT independently whether in or out of LE; but it’s nearly impossible during LE, since the limerent has an “altered” sense of his/her reality. For suffering limerents, mere calmness/peace is a “true” fleeting happiness.
If your LE and hope negatively affect your “saving your life and studies”, then perhaps the LE and hope need to go? How would you stop this hope? Have you lived a period completely without any hope? Are you prepared or strong enough for that sort of psychological darkness?
It’s “reasonable” for an limerent to be unable to imagine s/he could ever fall for another LO, . But you have a long life waiting ahead of you, anything is possible by (mathematical) logic or fate. You really should keep a hope in this regard.
When one has their own income, s/he can feel much better in control of their survival or thrival. But be clearly aware that a lasting, substantial romance + love are a different matter, having little to do with wealth, social status, or popularity.
Best lucks!
To TT-Two
“Rational”—sometimes I feel that the so-called possibility is just my LE brain deceiving me. I’m very grateful for anything you say! 🥰
I want to say that once we enter synthetic bodies and become another species, we won’t have to suffer from limerence anymore 😎. Just a joke.
Sorry, my description wasn’t very clear. She has more moles than most people, but they don’t ruin her cuteness. I know some people like freckles; maybe it’s similar. But she may not really realize how charming she is. From what I understand, she probably did reject one or two classmates. I worry she treats me no differently.
“Stray dog” is one metaphor I think fits—like suddenly finding a master for myself. I don’t know if other limerents have the same thought. I’ll try to work on my withdrawal.
I really know too little. ❄ also suggested this. I’ll try chatting now—any change or understanding is better than now!
Uncertainty about where I’ll end up is still a concern. I plan to learn more about her without changing anything, if that can completely get me out of LE.
In my imagination, is long-distance separation a test of how strong the relationship is? In the internet age, maybe it’s not so hard to endure.
I can’t really learn those dating techniques; it would feel strange. But friends may know me better. Maybe sincerity is more important. I guess I can handle these things in the future.
I only show mild PTSD (suppression/anger) at home and about things related to my parents; I don’t feel it elsewhere. Apart from people I might be romantically interested in, I don’t show avoidance. My good friend says everyone feels inferior in front of someone they like (I guess not).
I’ll try to find out whether my judgment is correct, guessing together with someone who has “unrequited love” but is afraid to act 😂. You’re all so patient—it’s really touching!
In cases of love at first sight, attraction to someone’s back seems normal? It may be too intense for me.
I’m curious whether it’s because of “childishness.” Although LO’s back really is nice-looking, I want to ask her how she feels about herself. Sometimes I think if I had a child’s mind, how beautiful the world would be, but human rationality must grow up.
I can’t compare whether NC intensified the strength of LE. I guess it’s less intense than at first, but NC made it last a long time. When things are good, calm and torment alternate; sometimes for a long time there is only torment, like alternating euphoria and depression. But it only comes from my LE brain. When my image of LO fades and intensifies, I’m not sure what controls this alternation.
If possible, LE and this hope must go. I want to get more information to turn hope into a judgment that won’t change. In the initial period after she rejected me, I had no hope except mocking myself. It felt easy. But because I couldn’t divert my attention, LE gradually burned up. I guess having no hope is a good thing.
I believe I will meet other LOs. Currently I can’t imagine it at all. Maybe the unknown is the best!
I’m glad to know romance and love aren’t strongly related to material things. I’ll try to really get used to it.
I’ll try to make changes to my LE now. Thank you very much! Best wishes!
(Opening LO’s message screen) Oh god, I’m so nervous I can hardly breathe. Maybe I shouldn’t do this. I feel like I’m going to mess it up. What will she think of me? It’s just awkward—that’s all! 🥲
Can you take a few sips of wine or beer? not too much though…
From previous experiences and others’ telling, such ice-breaking act, even clumsy, would feel cute to most girls, some flattered, some touched, some empathetic, some amused… if not, would you want to deal with an insensitive or arrogant girl (she doesn’t sound like one)?
There is one certainty in life — everyone will mess something up, particularly in matters of heart. That’s when one could truly learn and grow.
But don’t do it too late at night (not after 9pm), until you know each other better.
Thank you. I feel like a child being treated warmly. I don’t like drinking; at school there seem to be only canned cocktails. Based on the result, LO does seem very free-spirited, rather than trying to understand. I’m sorry if I disappointed you 🥺. I’ve thought many times about DrL’s limerence principle, “you cannot predict how LO will react”, but I still wasn’t really prepared.
After sending the message, I spent 4 hours in agony, regretting that I said “If you don’t feel like chatting, just ignore it”. Finally, LO replied: “I don’t like chatting. Don’t message me again.” Undoubtedly bitter, but it did achieve the goal, in a way. I guess even the limerent in me can’t argue with that.
Right now it feels like I just came off the operating table after having a diseased organ removed, walking unsteadily on the road. It feels awful, the only thing I know is that the days ahead will get better.
After sending the message, I asked a friend. My friend thought the words were okay but the timing was terrible. Fortunately, LO didn’t ignore me like I feared, but actually replied.
I don’t know how to view my first limerence—funny and bitter. I still haven’t fully accepted the fact that what I’ve “liked” for 10 months was an illusion, and that LO isn’t “special”. If I could fully accept it, maybe that would mean I’ve matured. I hope I really learn something from this lesson, and I hope I’ll be more alert next time.
Without the warm encouragement from you and ❄, I don’t know how much longer it would have taken me to take this simple step. I can’t put into words how grateful I am for your kindness and patience, and all I can offer in return is a failed result. I feel very guilty and very grateful. I wish you happiness every day!
Anvil,
You did it! I’m glad that you bravely sent LO a message, but really sorry for the pain you got, which would last much shorter time than taking no actions.
No, no disappointment here, but the proudness that you finally took an action that’s required to remove the uncertainty. Next time try the Stoic way to prepare for all “risky” actions, then crushing pains may never land on you — a“trick” or marvel of psychology.
What “free-spirited” means to you? What result makes you thinking the LO didn’t try to understand your message? Did something in it that subtly solicited some sort of understanding?
“After sending the message, I spent 4 hours in agony, regretting that I said “If you don’t feel like chatting, just ignore it”. Finally, LO replied: “I don’t like chatting. Don’t message me again.”
I can’t tell why you need to regret what you said here. Instead of being uncaring or insensitive, LO respectfully gave you a straight-forward answer (her last sentence is a bit harsh without even the word, ‘please’). Regardless of whatever reasons behind her answer, you “achieved the goal”. Now you’ll have an easier or shorter time to let LE go.
“Right now it feels like I just came off the operating table after having a diseased organ removed, walking unsteadily on the road. It feels awful, the only thing I know is that the days ahead will get better.”
So sorry about how awful you feel after the “surgical procedure”, I know how it feels like… However, following the removal of the “organ of uncertainty”, your mind will become free soon!
“I don’t know how to view my first limerence—funny and bitter. I still haven’t fully accepted the fact that what I’ve “liked” for 10 months was an illusion, and that LO isn’t special.”
That’s what most limerents think/feel in the beginning of infatuation and in the height of limerence, it’s not funny but painful. No matter how LE recovered people point out, shout, and swear about LE illusions, limerents inside of “the LE wall” cannot or refuse to see the truths and knock down the wall!
At least, the girl doesn’t sound like a doggy LO, but just a lesbian. Her NO is most likely a result of her Nature, which doesn’t say anything about your personality and attractiveness. It’s her “mysterious” friendliness that was perceived by your LE brain as romantic interest. You didn’t fail anything in this limerence episode, no other men can win her, either, at this point.
“If I could fully accept it, maybe that would mean I’ve matured. I hope I really learn something from this lesson, and I hope I’ll be more alert next time.”
Give yourself some quiet time to reflect on whatever happened; then you’d learn more about your own mind and feel a lot matured. Next time, you’d be more clearheaded and cautious, not to slip into LE too easily/fast. At your age with a college life, you’ll have plenty of chances to bump into a single, available LO. Have a trust!
It’s challenging but meaningful to chat with you about your LE case, how I wished it could be marginally reciprocated! Thank you for your good wish for my days ahead.
I wish you great successes in your current and future studies. After completing the current BS, go for your higher educational interests/goals and follow your true professional calling.
The best luck!
To TT-Two
The pain was indeed very short. Right now what I care about is only this: to LO, I will always be a weirdo, and how I should adapt to my “new identity”.
Thank you for your concern. I hope next time I’m truly prepared. Compared with long, drawn-out anxiety, accepting a fact seems much easier, apart from the brief bitterness.
I don’t know if “free-spirited” is a fitting description. From some details I learned, LO doesn’t seem to care about them. She lives lightly, which means what she sees could be completely different. She’s hard for me to understand, and it’s very likely she won’t try to understand my tormented state and its reasons. Judging by the result, that’s indeed the case. She thought it was just a strange attempt after 10 months—though she’s not wrong.
I added a sentence I shouldn’t have added. Fortunately, 4 hours later, she didn’t mention that sentence and just replied directly. Her directness was indeed unexpected. Now that I think about it, it was probably the most effective. I don’t know whether I’ll care about her view of me—a weirdo—or whether this kind of struggle in a small box no one notices happens often.
It’s really strange. I tried so hard to understand LO for so long, and in the end I found that the only thing I got right was that LO is completely different from me. But I didn’t want to believe it, and preferred to believe in a 1% chance 😂. I should have accepted the truth long ago, but for some reason I slowly changed my mind.
As if I had been injected with a “soul,” I feel I have also lost my “soul.” Suddenly I have no idea who I am, whom I belong to, and where I should go. I’ll probably adapt soon and return to my pre-LE state. I’m not sure whether I’ll miss the present. I still need to find my own meaning.
I will always be grateful for your selfless help and the generous time you’ve given me. Maybe, for this kind of thing, accepting it as it is can also be part of its charm. Thank you for your blessings. I will always remember this warm place and the wonderful people here!
Best wishes to you!🥰
I just realized why she replied in such a harsh way. She guessed my purpose and what I wanted to ask, and thought I was boring—reasonable and effective. I don’t know if this counts as growing up. 🙂
Most likely she guessed your purpose, but we don’t know her thoughts behind her cold act.
There are 3 possibilities:
1. Her orientation remains the same.
2. You appeared boring to her personality or tastes.
3. Your “icebreaker” was 9~10 months late, not soon after she gave you her contact. She could be even offended — Not treated as your top priority even just for an online icebreaker.
Moreover, what does “boring” mean to everyone? To you or to her? Is it helpful to think yourself in a negative light? although it’s totally understandable that it’s a habitual reaction based on the sense of “inferiority”.
On the other hand, if regardless of whatever the reason could be, you CHOSE to believe it’s neither good nor possible to be with her, thus to actively kill every bit of LE hopes, then you’re indeed “growing up”. You’d be on a Stoic path — calmly letting go all that is out of our control.
Anvil,
Each of us is a “weirdo” at a given time to someone else or many others. It depends on their personality and tastes — out of our control; why care? There is never a need to adopt a “new identity” for anyone else’s sake, let alone an unknown or personality-opposite LO!
“Compared with long, drawn-out anxiety, accepting a fact seems much easier, apart from the brief bitterness.”
That’s a big lesson learned! 👏
I have a “theory” that might explain your LO’s free-spirited personality or behaviors…. But she’s no longer your concerns now; your recovery and moving on are most important.
It’s neither strange nor uncommon to misjudge a LO, since most limerents know little about realistic LO or have LE-distilled illusions of LO. To wish LO to have similar personality as ours or refuse to acknowledge noticeable differences is so “natural” during LE, because of the blind pair-bonding drive. Please don’t beat yourself up on the incorrect perceptions of your LO.
To consider LE as an injected “soul” shows its gigantic impact in your system. But one’s own soul was still breathing during LE, just temporarily covered by thick LE fogs. Now, with the removal of the uncertainty, you’re at the end of the LE tunnel.
Please don’t feel sacred or lost during this short, seemingly “soulless” or “empty” state. Once the fog is blown away by the external Sunlight or your inner light of essence, your own soul would dance in the center stage of the mind again.
I don’t think your mind can return to your pre-LE state. You’ve gown a great deal through LE highs and lows, and painfully learned lessons. Once the mind calms down from this “rejection”, it will be renewed or create new meanings for your LE-free life.
Have a faith and courage to take wise steps to move forward!
To TT-Two
Based on the advice LO gave me, I think she would probably find someone who agonizes over such a small thing for 10 months “boring”, especially after I asked for an explicit rejection and then got curious again. As for me, I wouldn’t think of myself as that boring—at least I wouldn’t ignore myself just because I’m boring.
I’m not sure I can consider her “not good” for me. Right now I’m still trying to distract myself and not think about LO. Her reply seems better than “I know what you’re thinking, impossible” or a clear explanation. Once again, it proves that I don’t understand her at all.
This is indeed a good lesson: when “everything I want” truly can’t be obtained, and life must go on, I have to learn to be open-minded. 😌
I’m indeed too afraid of being embarrassed in front of others, even in the virtual world. Usually it won’t be too big a deal. I probably need to slowly get used to this and care less.
I vaguely feel she has a personality that isn’t rare but I completely know nothing about. I’m not sure if I would “want” this kind of personality, just as I can’t imagine LO’s image. I can’t draw a conclusion. I’ll look elsewhere.
I think I might be one of the cases with the least understanding of LO—almost no information from LO herself, and my guesses start from what I want to believe. What an interesting lesson.
I believe I will find my soul again. 😎 I always subconsciously choose not to endure, wanting to rely on the external world, others, and virtual things. But my body taught me a lesson: I need to fill it by myself. I will think carefully about what this “filler” should be like.
One good thing is that when everything I want suddenly disappears, the future becomes completely unknown. If I don’t have expectations, it seems like it could be quite interesting.
I hope my mind has truly matured, and that I understand myself better. At least if it happens again, I won’t be completely unprepared. I hope one day I can really experience what DrL said: “limerence can lead to personal renewal”.
Thank you so much for your insightful guidance and encouragement. I’ve really learned a lot. It’s time to stand up and move forward! 🥰
Anvil,
Your guessing or assuming about LO’s mind is still going on. 😀
Did LO give you any advice, besides asking you not to message? Your agonizing can be seen more hesitating, driven, unyielding rather than “boring”. Boring people usually don’t invent or initiate but follow others.
“As for me, I wouldn’t think of myself as that boring—at least I wouldn’t ignore myself just because I’m boring.”
That’s self-respect, good for you! Never ignore yourself due to external (perceived) opinions or your own unfavorite assessment of Self.
“I’m not sure I can consider her “not good” for me. “
I don’t think you know her enough to judge her either “good” or “not good” in her personality. Presently, “not good” only means she’s unavailable to you now.
“Her reply seems better than “I know what you’re thinking, impossible” or a clear explanation. Once again, it proves that I don’t understand her at all.”
No truly sensitive and considerate person would write those words to reject a suitor, they sound assuming, rude, narrow-minded. And usually people wouldn’t explicitly explain why a NO, since they don’t really know you well, either.
Based on what you previously told here, I don’t see how you could understand her with so little in-person contact. Your impressions and guesses were formed mainly by your imagination only after a couple of brief encounters.
“This is indeed a good lesson: when “everything I want” truly can’t be obtained, and life must go on, I have to learn to be open-minded. “
Did you know what you truly wanted to obtain in this LE, since you knew so little about the realistic LO? … But never mind, you must move on now.
One person’s views are perpetually limited; so open-mindedness means to encounter unknowns with genuine curiosity, instead of assumptions or cliches. An open-mind also tries to considers for all sides of a matter, stepping into others’ (‘wrong’ sized) “shoes” to speculate it.
“I’m indeed too afraid of being embarrassed in front of others, even in the virtual world. Usually it won’t be too big a deal. I probably need to slowly get used to this and care less.”
Why so afraid? In your case, a “Romeo and Juliet” are realistic available, no cultural/social barriers or aged clan duels, then what factors in your budding amorous affection that could be deemed “embarrassing”?
In the virtual world, we’re “ghosts”, have nothing realistically to do with each other, and can’t have audiovisual effects on each other, so what could be accountable threats? Is it because a LE is more intense and addictive than a crush?
“I vaguely feel she has a personality that isn’t rare but I completely know nothing about. I’m not sure if I would “want” this kind of personality, just as I can’t imagine LO’s image. I can’t draw a conclusion. I’ll look elsewhere.”
What is felt about someone could be miles away from their reality. Only direct interactions with them can reality check. In your case, if you proved LO’s personality isn’t “rare”, would you have backed up sooner without slipping into LE?
What sort of “rarity” in personality you’d want and value? Are you seeking a “rare” romance? You met LO in person, why can’t you imagine her image? If one simply walks away from a non-conclusion, then that’s not open-mindedness…. Nonetheless, she’s made a decision for both of you…
(By the way, I intuitively think your LO’s “free-spirited” appearance and behavior might be a self-defensive shield 🛡️ protecting her insecurity deep inside…)
“I think I might be one of the cases with the least understanding of LO—almost no information from LO herself, and my guesses start from what I want to believe. What an interesting lesson.”
If so, that’s indeed a lesson for in-depth study. “Guessing what one wants to believe” — projecting one own wishes and imaginations to reality, is human nature. A cool mind would constantly check hopes and fantasies against realistic facts, recognize discrepancies, and expect little in favoring only oneself.
A more maturer mind wouldn’t even project, but calmly, patiently let reality unfold on its own pace. As long as there’s no expectations but hopes and tryouts, one wouldn’t be badly disappointed or hurt.
“I always subconsciously choose not to endure, wanting to rely on the external world, others, and virtual things.”
That’s dangerous, giving control of your own affairs and mental health to external forces, especially virtual things that hold no human breath.
“But my body taught me a lesson: I need to fill it by myself. I will think carefully about what this “filler” should be like.”
Absolutely true! Your own body/mind is your truly reliable master and supporter, who knows what’s best for their vital needs. Don’t ever let others or LO dominate/lead it.
“One good thing is that when everything I want suddenly disappears, the future becomes completely unknown. If I don’t have expectations, it seems like it could be quite interesting.”
When there is no excessive desires or any expectations, the entire world becomes open and fascinating. The mind enters a kid-like “innocent and curious state, but with its maturing rationality and experienced wisdom.
Through your LE experience, you’ve already got on the path of “personal renewal”: your constant reflections on gains, losses, and anything in between are steps to maturation.
Standing up on our grounded feet feels liberating and renewing, please firmly move forward to fulfill your hopes and dreams.
🫂
To TT-Two
Deep down, I feel I’ve received too much help and feel a bit guilty. No need to reply! I’m just writing down my thoughts as a careful listener. I’ll take what you’ve said to heart. I’m sure the rest of the work is just to shift my attention. Sincere thanks! 🥰
Judging from the advice LO gave me when I asked for an explicit rejection, she probably thinks I’m a very flat person. Otherwise, why would I agonize over such a small thing for so long? 🧐
Now I hope that one day I can get to know a personality similar to hers. I’m not sure if I’d be interested after taking off the LO filter.
I think it might be an understandable defensive reaction. From her gentle behavior online, she seems not to want to answer the questions I might ask. After all, too much time has passed; after losing any interest, she’d probably just find me annoying, which also shows her personality is somewhat free-spirited.
My imagination was wrong in too many ways. Fortunately, her reply reminded me of this. I can’t say “deviation”—it was completely wrong 😂
Since the LE began, I’ve felt that being with her was “everything I wanted”, even though I don’t even know her. A magical phenomenon.
I think I’ll try to put myself in others’ shoes to speculate. I’m also quite curious, and I like this about myself—it’s just that regarding LO, I was completely wrong 🤪
For potential romance, I’m afraid the other person will find out I’m someone “not good enough” for her, but I’ve realized none of this matters 🫡
Even unrelated to romance, in the virtual world I’m also afraid of being a weirdo. I thought this was a normal phenomenon. I don’t feel there’s any threat; I just care about others’ opinions. I need to slowly get used to this.
The feeling she gives me is stronger than the personality I guessed. Maybe it’s only because of lack of understanding and the filter that I might think this personality “rare”. I can’t yet say whether I like or dislike this personality. For me, being with a free-spirited person might be easier. The guys who attract me are also fairly free-spirited, but a male version of that. So if I still withdraw, I might similarly slip into LE.
Personality is one of the guesses after falling into LE. Before seeing LO, I couldn’t imagine liking someone like this. I hope to know more.
I even dreamed of a “misunderstanding and resolution”. My LE brain is still fantasizing about “what could have been”. Fortunately, it won’t affect my real judgment. I’ve learned more about Glimmer. The last thing I saw was “a little girl with messy hair, even wearing pajamas, lying on her side looking at her phone, hurriedly getting up”. After waking up, when I lay down and dreamed again, the fragment was kinda painful—watching her interact with others online 😂
From the fact that my romantic and sexual preferences are completely different—while the latter can be imagined—I think my Glimmer might be acquired, maybe like the liking between children, which gives me a sense of security.
I agree her behavior might be related to a sense of security. I still can’t understand these things at all.
I tried to test with facts, but the facts I got were too few, and a reward greater than everything made any possibility incredibly attractive. In the end, all the lessons come from the uncertainty brought by withdrawal, while to her it seems it was just a passing whim.
I need to fill myself with myself. I clearly remember the night I first saw LO. I was live-streaming to my classmates in the main hub town of a game server, Port Fortuna, before sleep. I kept thinking of LO, feeling that if I could see her again and get to know her, how happy it would be. Now I’m tired and just want to forget her. What an amazing lesson 🥲
When I’m with friends, I’m like a happy child. I’m looking forward to “personal renewal” and keep the feeling of being a mature child.
Thank you for your patient guidance. I’m much more optimistic. I’ll carry this experience with me on my future path.
Woof—all my best wishes! 🐶
Anvil,
Your sense of emptiness doesn’t seem to have lasted long, a lot of rumination about your LO is still going on, it’s all expected. Please just accept thoughts without fighting with them but watching them come and go with the “wind”… — physical activities, your school work, DrL’s feature articles…
With little direct contact with your LO, there is no way to know what’s going on in her head and understand or even misunderstand her. Imagination is marvelous but also can be “dangerous”, every coin has two sides!
“If being with a partner means walking together all the way, at least you need to get along. “ And on some non-romantic topics, like career and private topics, what you do with a friend is the same, right? “
That’s what I think. With a partner we can get physical intimacy, bed and naked body sharing; but not with friends. Emotional tie is definitely stronger with a partner than with friends.
“Maybe my personality isn’t very independent, so I put many needs on others. Currently my expectation for a partner is a friend with a romantic relationship. I think I probably need actual experience to correct this.”
In this era, a lot of people have acquired memetic “needs”/desires (FOMO), which makes their life loaded with motions, some meaningful while others nonsensical (ie. behavioral addictive activities). They can temporarily ease restlessness or fill some kind of inner “void”; but they’re mentally unhealthy.
We all need other people to survive and thrive in a large scope; but everyone is supposed to make efforts to take care of one’s personal needs independently with his/her physical, mental, and financial capabilities. Partner and friends could help us with our mental and emotional needs to a certain extend, never all. We still need to handle “alone” our intangible matters, such as true learning, soulful loving, winding healing, gradual maturing… Relying on others for such matters is impossible; they can assist, but they are not us.
“For the same reason, for me sex and romance are somewhat separate, even though both “override reason” for me. In my imagination, descriptions of sex would interfere with romance, while adversity, different species, and death can highlight romance. “
Romance heightened by adversity, different species, and death is a myth of Western Romanticism, existed and gloried only books. To me, romance has one’s emotions involved — an emotional connection/closeness. Sex can take place with or without emotions. The latter is not defined as romance but FWB. Yet, with emotions, sex could be absent but physical intimacy have to exist through sensory/nerve endings, like in aging couples, or patting pets. Gratifying sex is the most intensified physical intimacy; although not required for romance but it can hugely strengthen romance, not interfering it.
“…through songs I also feel that two people glued only by sex without extra feelings are equally romantic. “
Not to me, that’s animalistic, boring after while, which has been shown repeatedly in classical literature, modern media and attested by my own dating experiences! Gosh, it’s so boring 🥱 like “two beef stakes pounding on each other” (my cousin’s wording)!
“Maybe I just separate physical contact and sexual desire too much 🤔, while in real life they happen at the same time. I need to slowly experience it.”
Sexual desire can exist without any physical contact, but it will be intensified with physical contact, with or without emotions are involved. In FWB or forced sex, some “victims” claimed to have “enjoyed” carnal pleasure while wishing to kill the rapist.
“I agree that words can’t convey romance, but romance doesn’t need language or deep thinking either. “
That can be true, especially with pets. But romance may not go deeper or last longer. Language has its power to create and enforce or damage and kill. But emotionally expressive words alone without realistic backup actions will evaporate in the thin air sooner or later.
“It only needs contact, companionship, and possessiveness. “
The word “possessiveness” is a “scary” concept, related to slavery. Human mind, heart, and soul cannot be possessed but willingly shared with others. Moreover, one cannot even choose to be possessed, because his/her own mind has its own life, as everyone knows. Yes, we can possess pets while not knowing exactly what’s going on in their head — still free.
Your LO is definitely NOT the only one, there could be many “ones” down your path. But don’t wait around to pray or expect a sudden landing of Glimmer, let Fate take care of it, while you further mature. When a glimmer lands again (certainly will), you’ll be wiser to know how to kill uncertainty after a crush.
In my previous post, “fatalism” has its secular meaning, same as “fate”. Fate played a roll in what already happened to us, but will also play a role in our future. So one needs to mentally prepare to meet unknowns and possibly face the worst. That’s a rooted belief and practice in Chinese transitions.
Right now, it’s time to focus on your studies and career trainings. Dwelling on anything about this LO is futile, only causing more confusions and rumination in your head. I know it’s hard to force mind not to think, so you may try some vigorous bodily activities that require focus.
I wish more clearer, bluer sky come to your way! 🫂
Young man,
Go to some tracks to run your legs off, have plenty of nutritious food and sleep, stay away from those addictive computer games, and leave your aunt here alone to have more rest and time to cough… 😆
To ❄️
Thank you, Auntie Snow. I’ve really been taken care of so much. No need to reply! I just want to show I’m a careful listener. I’ll remember these teachings and try to live a healthier life.😃 Take care!
I pay close attention to anything related to her, but I can’t guess at all. If LO were a guy, I think I could understand.
I don’t seem to have much FOMO, but I can’t help confiding in friends. Learning to carry these things myself is a long lesson. In fact, after my friends all moved on to further study, I’m adapting to this difficult time of living alone.
I was worried that our understanding of romance differed on whether it includes sex; it seems it’s the same. The pleasure from physical contact is more stable than the pleasure from sex. As for romance brought by adversity, it does flatten the protagonists, but it’s classic as art.
As for two people glued only by sex, the “romance” I felt came from songs; from a bystander’s perspective it is indeed boring. Maybe in reality it should be accompanied by music? 😂
Our body and consciousness don’t move in the same direction—limerence has made me deeply aware of that. I saw an interview; a person who first lived as a man and then as a woman said that for women, most sexual desire is triggered by physical contact, while for men it is not.
The need for language—maybe that’s why many animals are more loyal than humans. In romantic relationships, humans need more and more complex things.
“Possessiveness” is a metaphor (I’m not very confident about my wording). I mean that in a romantic relationship, neither person can be with someone else. Also, some romanticized songs about possessiveness are fascinating.
Living without expectations—that’s what I’m doing now. I might understand my Glimmer a bit: LO is strongly romantically attractive to me yet not sexy at all—more like something acquired, the feeling of liking between children.
I agree that “fatalism” in its secular sense is widespread, but I’m not sure what role it will play in the future. I’ll try to handle it carefully. I had a dream about LO; it seems my LE brain hasn’t gotten used to it yet, but it won’t affect my judgment—it gave me some insight into Glimmer.
I believe I’ll gradually shift my attention! Thank you sincerely. I wish you good health and happiness every day!🥳
Hi Young Man,
With the daily wishes for your auntie’s happiness, I even had a unimaginable, happy dream last night 😊 —
I went to France of Napoleon to travel/live and stayed with an ordinary humble French men. I frequented (as a guest of a lady) Napoleon’s palace and began a couple of romances simultaneously with his soldiers (in fabulous red/blue uniform) and Napoleon himself a little bit. Napoleon was much thinner, bit taller but uglier ( than his realistic paintings) — wearing a short goatee on his very hollow cheeks. With my lady friend, we just flirted with those red coat.
There was a Buddhist temple on the back the palace and I visited there for its quietness, so we ladies could chat. Then I found I was pregnant! 🫃 … and my belly was showing. My Frenchman nervously asked whether it’s his baby. I assumed him it was his baby, because I had only one sex with him during my entire stay. He said he’d help take care of me, I told him there is no need, I’d be going back to my current home in the US… meanwhile, I continued spending fun time in the shinny palace…
In the end, my Frenchman host guided me to a huge square near the palace, scattered with people in 18th century fancy attire, to watch in distance Napoleon’s fanfare celebration for his Waterloo “victory” on a huge platform…
Then I woke up for my déjà vu…. (None of people resembled anyone in my reality or in movies)
Again, thank you for your blessing!
Don’t forget the Moon Festival on Friday and try to find someone to share a piece of 🥮 and watch the moon near water.
To ❄️
Wow, what a romantic and interesting dream 😲. The collage-like and creative elements remind me of steampunk fantasies—gorgeous airships and countless inventions. I love different eras coexisting, alternate timelines, and free travel. And I’m sure the Napoleon you saw was more real than the portraits 😂
Nothing could be more wonderful than an imaginative dream with elements of adventure and romance! As for wonderful dreams, during this period for me, there have only been dreams of a blurry LO in the distance, and joy amid tension—but thanks to you all, maybe it won’t be the only theme for much longer. 😌
Sometimes dreams wake you at just the right moment. I once dreamed of a dark animation that abruptly stopped at the most suspenseful scene and started playing the credits. When I woke up, I realized that stopping point was interesting. Maybe that’s the only way to keep the best part in our memory; for this dream, it’s the most romantic memory.
Thank you! If blessings really work, I once again wish you happiness every day, and all the best! 🥰
I don’t know anyone here. Maybe I can pick some nuts and seeds out of the mooncake filling and leave them for the birds. Since the campus isn’t big and is in the city, there don’t seem to be many birds (today I saw a small spotted dove at the canteen entrance). At my previous campus, there were especially many cute azure-winged magpies, plus quite a few magpies and spotted doves 😃
Anvil,
I found that a lot of Z generation is into fantasy novels or online series, while us aunties/uncles could not get into them that much. I majored in engineering in college and was very interested in Sci-Fic for a short time, then I lost the zest.
I gradually realized that high technology doesn’t really improve qualities of human life, because human psychology has progressed little in the past 3~4 thousands years. Our human fundamental needs, in body/mind, remain more or less the same due to our biology same to 5 thousands years ago, while some animals are domesticated.
High technology makes our life more speedier, anxious, more complicated and less content; happiness seems fleeting faster, patience, resilience last shorter…
Myself still likes historical stuff, although I enjoyed Dr. Who series. I guess my Tardis is my brain that dreams every single night and remember most of them. I wish they could be designed/“controlled” by others’ blessings and one’s wishes… somehow, the impact of fancy dreams, out of imagination, romance, lasts shorter than haunting nightmares, comprising of anxiety, fear, and longings…
I guess you can share a nutty 🥮’s seeds with doves. There are a lot of doves in my areas, hating eggs in a tiny nest on some old school or church wide window sills, they’re so touchingly devoted and laying there for days, rain or shine. Occasionally, one egg was left unattended outside the nest for days. Maybe its mother sensed it’s a “bad egg” or she was hunted down…
Hope you enjoy the biggest Moon 🌕 of a year tomorrow evening with Doves and have more better lucks and joy 🤩 henceforth…
To ❄️
I think that aside from the era, personal tastes play a greater role, depending on what we’ve seen. For me, all kinds of alternate-world fantasies are fascinating. The fantasies of this era are usually more intricate Nautilus submarines—elements are just “newer”, and it’s easier to find things that suit our tastes online.
Two months ago I played The Invincible, a “walking” game based on Lem’s 1964 novel of the same name. People back then needed imagination to conjure things up; today people can effortlessly see mature artistic concepts. Maybe that’s why tastes shift with the times.
Basically no sci-fi work thinks technology brings happiness. One of the great charms of cyberpunk is the scene formed when technological development “crushes” human adaptation—organisms gasping in the cracks of metal. High tech, low life. No one wants to live in that world, but that doesn’t stop it from being appreciated.
Having a dream-loving brain is truly a pleasure—dreaming every night, or rather remembering your dreams every day, is absolutely a rare and enviable gift for inspiration. Usually we can only remember the dreams from the period just before waking. Before neuroscience develops enough, if you want to know what you dreamed earlier, you can only use an alarm clock to “slice” the dream.
Dreams seem to be a mixture of what we’ve seen and the subconscious. In my experience, only a few lucid dreams can be “controlled”, and once I try to control them, the dream won’t last long because my imagination breaks. I have to pretend to still be that puppet 😂. I’ve also developed a habit in non-lucid dreams of trying to “teleport” with my mind. It doesn’t break the dream, but it takes a lot of effort to succeed, and I often find I’m still in the same place.
I guess fantasy dreams rely on unconstrained imagination, like an AI generative model—you wake up once it gets stuck. Nightmares aren’t limited by this, so they’re harder to wake from, which makes the former very precious.
Spotted doves are famous as silly mascots on the Chinese internet—they can be chased away by much smaller birds, and they’re often photographed with completely careless nests. So those doves are demanding architects 😲. In France, a wood pigeon even frequently visits a peregrine falcon pair’s nest. I think it might be a worse possibility.
Thank you! I’m not sure if I’ll see birds. There are many very tall trees here; I can hear birds, but maybe they prefer to stay up there. I’ll leave a little on the grass (probably won’t be noticed), and go look at the moon. Happy Mid-Autumn Festival to you too!
(This is a very early time 🧐)
Anvil,
A couple of things I meant to respond —
“Possessiveness” is a metaphor (I’m not very confident about my wording). I mean that in a romantic relationship, neither person can be with someone else. Also, some romanticized songs about possessiveness are fascinating.”
You’re talking about monogamy/exclusiveness here right? I think in a romantic relationship both parties’ mind/emotions can be with someone else (just look at LwL), but they either choose not to, or somehow too “naturally glued” to feel/do so.
Possessiveness in some romanticized songs are “scary” as if one has lost faculty to choose or contribute to the romance, and s/he is helplessly “chained/paralyzed” in love… That kind of helplessness would make an ordinary, mature girl/woman (with her own vulnerabilities) feeling uncomfortable or overloaded with “responsibility”….
“I might understand my Glimmer a bit: LO is strongly romantically attractive to me yet not sexy at all—more like something acquired, the feeling of liking between children.”
I think your type of Glimmer, “the acquired feeling of liking between children” is healthier and stronger than those instant glimmer at the first sight, which could go horribly wrong (of course not all)… As many know, romantic friendship formed in childhood/youth (no other self interests/benefits involved) are very strong in many cultures, often lasting for life.
“I agree that “fatalism” in its secular sense is widespread, but I’m not sure what role it will play in the future. I’ll try to handle it carefully. “
It means that Fate could in the future bring one either/or both good and bad lucks at different/or same times, when one thinks everything in a matter is under control (career, friendship, romance, family, etc). Fate is unexpected, whatever it might be. Nonetheless, one still makes best efforts despite unknowns.
I hope your LE has calmed down a little more? 🫂
Anvil,
I don’t object fancies movies (no time for their books) and could get into them once I started in engaging them; after all, they’re very creative with unpredictable journeys and destinations that always excite a curious mind. It’s disappointing only that in the end all human characters still can’t escape our universal vulnerabilities, suffering similar mental, emotions, and spiritual pains and unable to be happier than us, despite their “super powers”.
I was almost drowned in a pool (with eyes open watching the surface but “paralyzed”; still can’t forget that moment) when I was 4, so I never liked watching anything taking place under water; its pressure is threatening to me. I can dive a meter down with or without a snorkel, but any fantasy under water is unappealing to me.
I agree that with technology development, games, internet, young people of today have acquired or cultivated a lot more scientific, artistic and cultured crafts in films and games, which have so much more inspiring and entertaining stuff to kill one’s dull/down times.
But have they reduced human psychological issues? With more abundant material comfort in the West, there’re increasing behavioral “addictions”, mental health issues, as well as aged substance abuses. (According to some reports, China has a lot of youth, dominantly male, “addicted” to computer games, with one extreme story that a father threatened to cut off his teen boy’s hands. )
I like soft things on earth: river/lake, soil, plants, grass, flowers, leaves, animal furs/features, human flesh/skins, cotton, silk, linen, singings, dances, paintings, clay sculptures…. Metal is a necessity of computer games and fantasy series, which turn me off, even though those metal or hard-plastic, high-tech uniforms those “superhuman” characters wear (Spider Man is okay). But again, what are goals of having such super powers? Winning/losing for what, if the quality of fundamental human life in a personal or cosmical scale, can’t improve in the end of their adventures and struggles?
My “impressive” dreams have its two sides like any coin: both nightmares and yummy dreams get remembered; but the impact of the former lasts twice or thrice longer than the latter. I still remember some horrific nightmares since age of 10 (without ever writing them down), they became a part of my consciousness; only God knows how many forgotten nightmares or daytime traumas stored in my subconscious! I forgot last night’s bad dream within a few minutes after waking up (6am), by its “heavy” effect pissed me with no apparent reasons and is making me sleepy now (2pm).
I had a very few lucid dreams over decades, only one or two was pleasant. I never tried to control them but was frightened to death by the horrifying ones (only my previous dog proved they’re Untrue). In non-lucid dreams, my mind once actually ordered a “teleport” and it worked instantly like in “Harry Potty” (but only among buildings) without waking me up. Next time, it may work across seas.
Among all people I’ve known throughout decades, I’m the only one who’s remembered the most vivid, detailed “fantasy” dreams, some so unimaginable and unbelievable 🤩; yet they were all tied to my life of the time. I attribute them to one habit of mine — reading books/anything written slowly or repeatedly so I could reflect and digest them page by page or line by line. It’s not plots/facts but the personally digested stuff that gets stored in the Unconscious, and soon or later exemplify through dreams.
If you leave nuts on the grass, believe me, all sorts of birds will smell them and fetch them soon. I’ll take a bet with you on this. 💪
I’ll send you 🥮 scent 🌬️ to you tomorrow… 😀
To ❄️
Strongly agree. A good relationship requires both sides to consciously maintain it. Many romanticized images in songs are indeed just expressive devices. A relationship lacking understanding and respect is doomed not to last. I need to slowly understand this.
I’m only guessing about my Glimmer. I think feelings that don’t include sex are more stable. Referring to LO (I fantasize that she is the girl most likely to understand my “childishness”), maybe it’s just my one-sided preference for appearance/personality, and it doesn’t really matter. I hope to meet an LO who feels the same.
This experience has already made me feel how “unexpected” things can be. What’s funny is that, looking back, I was taken over by fear, like an unconscious puppet; only afterward did I realize what I should have done. I’ll remember this well and try to “influence” my life.
So far I haven’t been able to shift my attention, but I’m sure I don’t feel it worsening. It just needs time to pass—maybe also meeting a new LO, but that would be much later.
—
In all fantasy works written by humans, humans (even aliens) are still human. Sci-fi stories aren’t better than novels from hundreds of years ago. It could be seen as each person’s preference for style.
Sorry to hear about that 😣. I was trying to say that sci-fi classics appeared a long time ago. I also had a brief drowning experience, but it left no fear. Remembering something that happened at age 4 is amazing. I have very few memories and always feel that my past self was unconscious. This has improved over the past few years.
I agree that the development of the times hasn’t made humans evolve and has brought many problems. I also find it interesting to see how contemporary society shapes humans. It’s not about good or bad, but about what we are like while alive. I think the name of this album, or something similar, expresses this: Late Bloomer, Early Death.
Mental health issues may have only become more recognized in contemporary times. In college I found that I wasn’t really “addicted” to games. A bad family environment made me unconsciously look for anything I could use to escape/relieve pain. I don’t want to recall it. When I’m with people I like, I don’t think about playing games.
Soft things—what an interesting preference. I can recall that I really liked the touch of certain fabrics, and I liked clinging to a friend who was very tall and thin but very soft. Limited by our bodies, the happiness we feel is no different from that of ancient people. Treating fantasy works as a hobby is like appreciating paintings of different styles: Picasso’s paintings are hard to understand, but some people like them.
I’m really sorry about your nightmare last night 😟. I didn’t expect it could have such a big impact. Maybe everyone’s experience is different. If a nightmare is too intense, I might become lucid, but I can’t control it and have to struggle desperately to wake up. Apart from providing inspiration, dreams have no observed meaning for humans. I guess the brain is organizing memories and we just “happen” to see it.
Truly terrifying lucid dreams can’t be controlled; they’re driven by a feeling rather than imagination. You can try struggling desperately when you realize it. Maybe watching more positive and sunny things would help. My teleportation in dreams is like this: I imagine myself moving to a nearby place, then try hard to make myself “believe” that I’ve really moved, while not realizing that my body is still in the same place. This unstable superpower is fun once it succeeds.
Remembering your dreams every day is definitely an extremely rare ability. You’re probably a very sensitive person, feeling more than most people (a gift or a curse). Reflection and digestion is a good habit. Inner activity does easily show up in dreams. For me, it’s more like psychological compensation.
When I got to the canteen, the mooncakes were already sold out 😧. There were only the most unpopular five-kernel (nut) mooncakes 😆.
But the filling was too crushed and mixed with things unsuitable for birds. I could only pick out a few peanut pieces. This was the slowest mooncake I’ve ever eaten. Peanuts are too inconspicuous in the grass, and few birds come by 😶. I’ll check tomorrow.
Thank you! The moon is full and round tonight. The bright, soft light filtering through the moving clouds seems beautiful.
Anvil,
I agree with you that most of romanticized images in songs are focused on the emotions of crushed/infatuated /besotted ‘lover’; the other side (the beloved) is either unknown or affectionately unresponsive. It’s about a mental stage the way before launching a relationship.
In my view, without understanding and respect, a relationship could hardly begin. With them, It still needs mutual active contributions (words + actions) — adapted compatibilities, creative, artistic, loving skills and rituals to nurture, grow, and transform a sprout to a tree. One foot in my grave, I’m still learning!
I don’t know whether “feelings that don’t include sex” are more stable, because non-sex bonding also produce oxytocin. So what makes sex so risky/unstable in feelings? I also know sex makes the most oxytocin yet it does not make one to love the other side more or longer. Can romantic friendship between children ever amount the same quality or/and quantity to a committed romantic partners/spouses?
Only after coming to LwL, I realized that Glimmer is so “mysteriously” complex and just undefinable. It took place never with conscious sexual attraction involved (in my cases), yet the attraction is stronger, more “stubborn” than that of all other existed relations, for a short or long time. Once completely reciprocated (without any SO) emotionally, LE can leave one really fast.
In hypothesis with your LO, do you think a mutual attraction and appreciation of each other’s “childlike” personality, without sexiness in your glimmer or enough knowledge in her compatibility, can develop into a stable and workable relationship? (Assume you took the step when it was needed)
From your self-reflection, it seems that your fear of LO’s rejection was much stronger and longer than the rejection itself, which is fairly common in limerents’ mind. The fear “paralyzed” your system for taking a courageous, legitimate action that would prevent LE or reduce its lengthy, worse pains. 😞 But the wisdom is gained 👍, and I’m sure you would’d be much braver when meeting a new LO in the future.
—
I like all human beings or other furry creatures in fantasies, but just don’t like see metal weapons, equipments or costumes. It’s equivalent to that I like soft rocks, but can’t stand any “heavy metals” in music; they’re unbearable “noises” to me.
“I agree that the development of the times hasn’t made humans evolve and has brought many problems. I also find it interesting to see how contemporary society shapes humans. It’s not about good or bad, but about what we are like while alive. “
Your observation at such a young age makes you suitable to study psychology or social workers, trust me!
I’m glad that in online games, you’ve found temporary escape/relief from dealing with your unpleasant family environment. My aging brain is too slow to play computer games, it’s over stimulating, in addition to that winning or losing in games had NO effect in my personal life, besides taking away so much of my slower reading time or watching movies/shows.
Very true. I guess I was hoping that happiness in fantasy works could have more than what we are able to have. Happiness in the modern eras are fewer and fleeting faster … so limited by human nature’s complexities.
Dreams have a meaning in a sense that they can tell our current stress level or sometimes deliver vague messages, based on Jung. Jung said that in his later life, he rarely dreamed anything. I deem that his own analysis and shadow work had “killed”/removed them all.
Yesterday, I couldn’t remember any scene from the bad (anxious related) dream, but its impact oppressed me the most of the day until I finished my physical workout to clear “stuck Qi” in the meridian paths (as you know basic Chinese medicine concepts). Mind affects body, and body balances mind.
I had a rather nice dream last night about tutoring a little girl from the spring. This morning between 7 & 8am when I fell back to a half-sleep, I had a lucid-like dream: my former student from Hong Kong, shorter (than me), flamboyant, respectful and gay, came to sit next to my bed in my realistic room. He was pleasantly, excitedly told me what he planned to do career-wise after graduation (he’s been working over 2 years in reality)…
Then, I heard the key turning on my door, my mother came back from her night-shift (true in my childhood/youth). My heart skipped a beat: how I’m going to explain to her about this young man sitting at the edge of my bed? Her normal stern, irritated, critical face would frighten me.
Then a male Middle-Eastern friend of my ex-student (untrue in the reality) dashed into my open living room looking for him. Then I felt immediately relieved, thinking this guy can convince Mother that they’re a couple! … Then, I woke up 😃. Later, my day was busy but pleasant.
Being very sensitive is both a gift and a curse — two sides of a coin. The gift: you can sense and understand others and the world better/more (even without language); the curse: ability to sense others’ subtle/deep pains and the world’s miseries makes you a “2nd-hand sufferer” — unable to help much and feeing pessimistic and depressed.
Since young, I wanted just one supernatural power — invisibility (w/o a cloak), so I could walk around ear-dropping others’ chats — curious about what they truly think and feel. But I rarely questioned what I would do with all that internal information of others? To connect with them better?
Sorry that you only got the worst kind mooncakes yesterday, has the peanut pieces been picked up?
I cooked a dinner with Thai, Korean and Mediterranean dishes, and shared a mooncake with my family. Unfortunately, it’s raining here tonight 🌑 and a big storm/flood is coming tomorrow.
Hope your days are getting better and easier after a full Moon night…. 🌕
To ❄️
Maybe songs favor the tension of abnormal romantic relationships. I like depictions of “controllers and the controlled”; good things are too bland.
In my understanding, sex is about the body rather than the whole person. Glimmer, at least, exists rarely and bewitches us; sex doesn’t. I guess romantic friendship between children is inferior in quality to a committed partner, unless they grew up without separating—and in quantity it seems small.
Glimmer really is a mystery. My feeling is that she is very cute, forming a chain reaction inside me. I don’t know whether people with strong self-control can stop this chain reaction. As long as LO remains a reward greater than everything, and the mind feels there’s a probability—rather than 0 or 100%—you can’t break free.
I’d like to chat with her first, and say everything on my mind when the time is right. I hope I can please her—even dressing up as a girl would be okay. I can’t think further; I can’t even chat well. The cost of communication is really high.
I didn’t realize how long the pain of avoidance would be. Fortunately, I realize it now. Thank you and TT-Two—I will definitely be brave next time.
—
I deeply understand. Everyone has different preferences. I’ve also been puzzled by a friend’s taste in music for a long time.
My hobby and talent are in drawing, but I didn’t have much subjective choice and ended up studying engineering. By the time I realized it, it was too late. Maybe change needs to happen when I can handle it.
Thank you for understanding. Staying away from games is very right. The drawback of live-service games is that, to make a profit, companies find ways to meaninglessly prolong players’ game time.
I forgot that point. Dreams indeed contain a lot of information about us; often even very subtle subconscious things are projected into dreams. I’m not sure whether it’s because I really subconsciously care or because I just happened to see/remember it.
I’m sorry the dream’s impact was so strong, but I’m glad you had a nice dream. I think I can understand that concept, but I haven’t learned about traditional medicine. Childhood fears are so persistent 😧. I rarely have nightmares about my parents. I guess it’s because I don’t want to recall them. Sometimes I wake up from an awkward dream and feel really relieved to find it was all a dream. Usually, I don’t remember any dream having any effect on me.
I can’t understand that kind of sensitivity, but I know some people aren’t sensitive in comparison. Even in such subtle places, humans differ too much. If the pain of sensitivity doesn’t come from oneself, I feel it might be solvable mentally.
Only the worst mooncakes had parts birds could eat; the others had too much oil. Today the peanut pieces still haven’t been discovered, but nearby I saw a beautiful azure-winged magpie with long tail feathers, and a hard-to-identify bird in the distance. I also picked up a black-and-white feather.
Your cooking skills are amazing 😲. I really hope I can have good cooking skills in the future too (to win LO’s praise). If I don’t consider life and just look at preferences, I think rain is beautiful.
Thank you, and I wish you good health and sweet dreams every day!
Anvil,
Songs are just like films and novels, which need dramas, preferably high dreams with impossible adversities, without which few people would want to listen, watch, or read. But in reality, most people want good things and feelings of happiness without dealing with any adversity or pain. A tiny population (worry-free about the basic survival) pursues dramas and stimulations, for the sake of excitement, or feeling “being alive”.
I agree with your view on Glimmer vs. sex. Without enough emotional closeness/connection (even with SO), sex is also boring to two partners themselves, not just to “outsiders”.
Romantic friendship between children could be less or “inferior” than two committed romantic partners; however, two mature (EI + T 🧠 ) grownups with an active “inner child” can purify, lighten, ludify usually repetitious, mandatory adult life. Such a couple could make their romantic relationship tie stronger than “inner child — buried” couples.
No one in the entire history has figured out what Glimmer is. Once acquired, it cannot die if LO’s reciprocation is between 0 and 100%. Now, my question for you is: if LO is available (single) but also could reciprocate your LE less in quality — emotional intensity or/and in quantity (Greek loves and compatibility), what would you do?
“I’d like to chat with her first, and say everything on my mind when the time is right. I hope I can please her—even dressing up as a girl would be okay. I can’t think further; I can’t even chat well. The cost of communication is really high.”
Dressing up as a girl to please LO? 🤭 Isn’t that “over pleasing”? Do you think just being yourself could be enough to please her? Free chat/honest talk is definitely most important to start any possible friendship/relationship, like in the film trio “Before…”. Have you seen it? Very touching and convincing!
Why do you think you can’t chat well, with her or anyone else? Why is the cost of communication high? Most of SM from the West is banned in China, but Wechat phone and video chats are free even with overseas.
The pain of avoidance or meaningless waiting or fearful avoidance can last for years, it’s the worst kind than any “cold” rejection!
Have you read Ha Jin’s short novel “waiting” that won him Pulitzer Prize? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_(novel).
I remember clearly that after 14 years of agonizing waiting, the protagonist found the woman was NOT what he imagined/thought, and realized that the “painful waiting” itself had become his obsession.
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If you’re talented in drawing, major in engineering, and enjoy games, can you learn graphic, animation, or game designing? (It’s a new major in some colleges here). I wish today’s world has more human drawing and paintings, instead of “stiff” AI images.
I’ve heard how all computer and live-service games are designed to make players “addictied” so companies can make profits. I’m too stingy to let anyone/anything rip me off in time, energy, and money. I’d enjoy playing pokers, board and other games with fleshy human beings f2f. The metal screen is just too alienating to me and many others — I can’t viscerally sense their humanness, while chatting or gaming with my T 🧠.
“Dreams indeed contain a lot of information about us; often even very subtle subconscious things are projected into dreams. I’m not sure whether it’s because I really subconsciously care or because I just happened to see/remember it.”
Intuitive or visceral knowledge doesn’t’ take long (sometimes, just a couple of seconds, ie. Glimmer) to get into the mind and then sit in the Unconscious. Then the Unconscious manifests those information in “bizarre” dreams. Based on Jung, if one is ready to listen to what the Unconscious has to say, they’d remember their dreams. (Everyone has REM time, but people don’t always remember their dreams.) However, neuroscience has its own terminology to describe a brain in dreams and high/low dream recaller.
In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), Qi and Blood are the foundational life forces that sustain health, and their harmonious circulation determines your physical and mental well-being. They share a deeply interconnected, symbiotic relationship often described by the classical medical maxim: “Qi is the commander of Blood; Blood is the mother of Qi.”
When Qi and Blood flow smoothly, the body experiences health, vitality, and emotional balance. Disruption in this circulation leads to disease, or simply feeling unwell — Qi stuck. That’s what happened after every single nightmare I had. Nowadays, I’d do workout from 30-60 minutes to move Qi until I feel it’s grounded in my two feet (not stuck somewhere in the body), then my mood can be switched from cloudy to sunny.
Childhood fears or traumas are most persistent, stored in the deepest “memories” in the Unconscious; they may never surface again after the brain “shut down” some of horrific traumatic scenes, which is the smartest thing a young, protective brain could do!
You’re lucky that dreams don’t have much effect on you. I don’t believe some horrible, ugly, messy dream images or illogical narratives, but their impacts used to get hold of my nerves and moods afterwards from hours to days. Nowadays, I use PT workout to shake off their negative effects.
“I can’t understand that kind of sensitivity, but I know some people aren’t sensitive in comparison. Even in such subtle places, humans differ too much. If the pain of sensitivity doesn’t come from oneself, I feel it might be solvable mentally.”
By intuition and five senses, I know sensitivity distinguishes people hugely, even just a subtle eyebrow knot, but I cannot verbally describe how/why one differs from another in sensitivity/sensibility. I just sense something intuitively and later confirm it with tangible facts.
To reduce/kill the second-hand suffering, one needs to be Stoic — the only tool for me. Once I felt chocking sad for over 10 days for a very saddened limerent who was firmly turned down by his LO — me. To him, I was his pain and also a solution; to me, I only saw his suffering without any solution — I was unable to force my mind/heart to like him; it’s impossible! An authentic Stoic often comes across as “aloof/stern” or “unsympathetic/unempathetic”. I am still not “aloof” enough…
You saw an azure-winged magpie 🦜 ? A Chinese superstition believes that a magpie brings one a good news or a new spring.
If you want to win LO’s praise, then perhaps spend more time experimenting and practicing cooking, instead of live-streaming games? Playing with fresh food is really fun, it’s creative and then you get to eat/enjoy your freshly made works! One personality of mine is NOT following rules, so I rarely stick to receipts of any type ethnic food; they all have your auntie Snow’s improvisational style/flavor with the main, required ethnic ingredients. 😊
If living in a house in suburb or countryside, I think watching and listening to rains are just romantic (also goes well with piano music)! But if one has to go out working or the storm is knocking power off, then it’s very gloomy! So far, my town still has power and rain hasn’t floored the area (already did in the neighbor cities)… Let”s keep 🤞!
I hope you maintain more peace in the mind, able to focus on your school work and drawing, despite LO may stay there for a while…
To ❄️
Yes, it’s hard for some people to get pleasure from ordinary stimulation, so they pursue extreme or dramatic things.
A partner with an “inner child”—that sounds really nice. I dreamed of a young couple who started dating in high school; it was very sweet. After waking up, I realized they were from many stops ago. I never liked anyone in high school.
I don’t know. If I don’t mess it up, I want to get as close as I can, and then try to adapt? Even though I’d never be satisfied—maybe worse than reality.
I’m a bit embarrassed to say that after starting college, I’ve rarely read books or watched movies. I think if she got to know me, she wouldn’t dislike me. If she likes a partner who dresses up as a girl, I have no reason not to do it, though I can’t change my bones and the hardness of my skin.
I have no problem chatting with guys, but with girls I don’t know, I mess up right from the start. Maybe that’s the “cost”. Getting to know each other takes time, and I can mess up at any moment.
I’m not interested in contemporary fiction (awkward imitation, frivolous writers, degraded awards). But I’ve realized that LO and my fantasy are not quite the same. I still can’t draw a conclusion about her.
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I’m also very interested in this. I plan to try graphic design in my spare time, but unfortunately the current game industry uses AI heavily for cost reasons. In a way, it’s like dreams—AI that has learned a huge amount of “memories” can even give people inspiration. Cherish this era full of humans. 🫤
Being with living people—maybe this is also a manifestation of sensitivity. If I can be with friends through a screen, I’m somewhat satisfied. Yesterday I scratched my face with a feather I picked up, and it felt unexpectedly pleasant. I can’t imagine how happy it would be to have a pet.
Since we only remember the dreams from just before waking, I think what we remember is also only a small part—just an extra piece of memory. I believe TCM has some truth. Medicine derived from experience has its uses before modern medicine fully understands humans.
I hope those scenes really were shut down. Occasionally I have related nightmares, but fortunately they don’t have a lasting effect. This is the first time I’ve known someone could be so deeply affected by dreams.
That kind of sensitivity is really marvelous, like Glimmer or an invisible QR code—unexplainable. I’ve wondered whether LO’s coldness might be helping me get out of LE faster 😆. I think she wouldn’t be aware of it, just an instinctive defensive reaction. I think a person who is inwardly Stoic can also show appropriate warmth to others. I think if he’s a good person, it’s a good idea to help him analyze the problem clearly and then give him a clear rejection. Some pain must be endured.
Magpies are a bit bigger than azure-winged magpies, and I see them less often. Both are well-loved for their charm. China really has this superstition—one is called “happiness magpie”, the other “grey happiness magpie”.
When I can live independently, I’ll try cooking, though it’s not something I feel strongly about. Improvisational style—you must be very talented 😲.
I like the look of medium and light rain in the city. Whether gloomy or sci-fi, it’s very fascinating. When the rain gets heavy enough, it’s indeed very dangerous. Not long ago, there was an extreme rainstorm/flood in Guangxi, China. I watched a mini-documentary about the rescue, and it was very moving. I hope you’re all safe!
I’ll “focus on scribbling messy doodles” while studying 🫣. Although I’ve only studied on and off for two years, I probably like sketching, quick sketches, and doodles. Thank you! I hope I can get my life back to normal soon.
(And… no need to reply 🤪!)
There seem to be a lot of birds here. I noticed that a very large flock of birds flew past. There are many bird calls coming from those towering trees; they all seem to stay up there.
The peanut pieces are gone! 😆 I don’t know which careful little cutie picked them up, and I hope they’re still edible.
Anvil,
I think Asian people (based on my limited visits), compared to Americans, are a lot better in desiring pleasure from ordinary stimulations. Aside from staying away from extreme pursuits, the degree of same desires is less intense on your side of the Globe. The Doctrine of the Mean is still highly valued like in the Ancient Greece.
I get the possible existence of mature grownups with an active “inner child” from my own Granny and Father. Despite the WWI, the civil war, the Starvation, and the Cultural Revolution, they both lived and welcomed each day like a “toddler” while fully aware of the bleak sky, day after day, year after year…
Yet, they fully engaged in the restricted, deprived personal and social activities, enjoyed whatever they had in hands, and believed/preached “tomorrow will be better!” What else was there to believe or cheer up their spiritual life or physical survival, when no religions were allowed? They acted like kids playing “household games” while their mind observed , understood, and prepared for the surroundings like a hawk.
“If I don’t mess it up, I want to get as close as I can, and then try to adapt? Even though I’d never be satisfied—maybe worse than reality.”
Trying to adapt is all sentient beings, especially Mammals’ innate/instinctive ability for survival and thivival. Human satisfaction always comes from knowing how much is enough to oneself; and having Some good, precious things is better than having Nothing, right?
Have you heard enough from your upbringing (schools) the idiom, “ Zhīzú zhě cháng lè —Contentment brings happiness“? It applies to all kind of social, intellectual, and relational life. The more intense of a desire, the more suffering if it can’t be met, which captures the LE’s essence, especially during its Limbo stage.
“I think if she got to know me, she wouldn’t dislike me. If she likes a partner who dresses up as a girl, I have no reason not to do it, though I can’t change my bones and the hardness of my skin.”
That’s some confidence you’ve got there! However to a limerent, “not dislike” is not enough; they usually want LO to LE for them, too, while knowing LE is not even a true love…. Your willingness to dress up like a girl for your LO is adorable, I bet you’d follow Dr L’s footstep to read Proust’s “In Search of Lost Time, IF your LO happens to love Proust’s works. 😆
“I have no problem chatting with guys, but with girls I don’t know, I mess up right from the start. Maybe that’s the “cost”. Getting to know each other takes time, and I can mess up at any moment.”
Shyness or styles of conversation may make initial chats feel awkward and nerve rocking, but please remember, it’s not the manner but contents of honest dialogues that truly matter. There is not such a thing as “mess up at any moment” if you’re sincere and sure about where you stand or prefer in any topics. Your LO might be also shy or have her sense of deep insecurity. Everyone, grownup from any era to today, has their own set of insecurity; no one is spared, trust your auntie ❄️ on this!
“I’m not interested in contemporary fiction (awkward imitation, frivolous writers, degraded awards). But I’ve realized that LO and my fantasy are not quite the same. I still can’t draw a conclusion about her.”
I’m sorry to correct your words here a little bit: with such limited, indirect interactions with LO, you cannot “realized” anything substantial about your LO yet. It’s quite logical that you can’t draw any conclusion about her, besides her online behaviors with others or your senses of her under delusional LE interference. 🙂
About books, I’d go for classical literature up to Sartre and Cumins. Ancient Greek plays and those giants’ fictional works in 19th century across Europe are greet, never faded with time. I enjoy linear story telling in classics; for modern ones, I like “the stream of subconsciousness” flowing on the page represented by Woolf and Proust. Joyce’s language is hard for me to grasp.
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Due to my abnormal sensory organs (had a “professional test) and their sensitivity, I can’t feel/sense anyone well behind a screen, making me at most only intellectually connected with their mind, but not their full humanity. Soon or later, online conversations with friends even become mechanical.
Pets are great! They don’t need human’s language or complexity to love you or to be loved. Life with them is sensory based and mostly pleasant, aside from our labor for them. They can sense and understand our joys and pains instantly, especially dogs.
I don’t care whether TCM has modern scientific data to back up its truths, I practiced it to lessen/cure many of my “unsolvable” physical /psychological issues over years, which worked; so TCM counts to me! It’s also important in preventive medicines.
Most of my dream scenes would fade away in time, if I didn’t record them. But if I jolted them down, their negative/dark effects are reduced sooner. Nice dreams linger longer because they have inspired something new in the mind.
“I’ve wondered whether LO’s coldness might be helping me get out of LE faster 😆. I think she wouldn’t be aware of it, just an instinctive defensive reaction.”
Based on your descriptions, her coldness could be a defensive reaction, or her own sense of insecurity, her frustration of being ignored/avoided for 10 months, or a decision to cut off your indecisiveness. Now young man, tell us how much she has succeed?
“I think a person who is inwardly Stoic can also show appropriate warmth to others. I think if he’s a good person, it’s a good idea to help him analyze the problem clearly and then give him a clear rejection. Some pain must be endured.”
It’s an insufficient understanding that Stoics are all “aloof” or “cold-blooded”. They keep in mind that the external world and other people are out of their control, so they care none/little about others’ opinions, positive or negative, and they don’t want to get a simulated/read headache (emotional or physical) just in order to sympathize or empathize others’ headaches.
Goodness and capabilities in people do not guarantee or secure a glimmer, or grant them an ability to understand why a LO cannot “glimmer” back at their qualities. Even limerents themselves can’t explain why and how their glimmer takes place in the first place. Thus it’s hard for LO to rationally explain why he’s unable to emotionally reciprocate. Is saying “I don’t have the glimmer” enough? But caring efforts of reducing limerents’ pains can be made, if LO is decent enough.
I’m not talented in anything, just like to get my hands/legs on doing something, thus cooking, gardening, dancing, playing music instrument, workout, walking/hiking in the nature…
So you like abstract drawing? I like classical portraits drawings, they’re so painstakingly detailed, soft and curved… 〰️
I hope you continue feeling better and freer from LE everyday! 🫂
Edit: “ get a simulated/real headache (emotional or physical) “
To ❄️
(I mean, no need to reply… for the whole message 😉)
I’m more inclined to think this kind of pursuit depends on population distribution, culture, and lifestyle habits. Individuals who are hard to get pleasure from ordinary stimulation will appear within any population. Even within the Confucian cultural sphere, there are cultures that make no attempt to conceal desire. For an individual, once they get used to a certain kind of stimulation, they need stronger stimulation to get the same feeling.
The Cultural Revolution? Now I get the answer. In our conversation I was almost about to rule this option out 😧. Religion is restricted but not banned; for non-believers it’s more like a cultural product. My friend even met a very devout Christian “missionary”. I admire optimistic and open-minded people, though I’m not one yet.
When LO becomes a potential reward that surpasses one’s own life, I think no one would be willing to be content. Only when the cost of pursuit exceeds the reward should one be content. That’s my view.
Haha, I know I’m “harmless”. I really hope she feels the same way (nope). I’ve put a filter on all of LO’s possible preferences. She even reads tarot/divination; she might also want to learn drawing. If she has read any classic literature, I’d want to read it too.
I believe that. Although I “messed up” the chat, judging from her behavior the next day, she wasn’t angry. But I withdrew because of my “mess-up” and inferiority.
I’m always happy to be corrected ☺ (and I also like to share my views). I thought of many possible reactions from her but didn’t expect her to say that. It seems this can rule out some of my guesses, but after I realized it might be defensive behavior, I became uncertain again.
I really admire your literary background! I rarely read now, and it’s likely I won’t be in the state to pick up books again. Many things are gone forever.
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It seems you need to feel more. For most people, what sound conveys is already enough. How marvelous.
Animals’ senses are indeed very sharp. Dogs and humans are to some extent symbiotic species; after long evolution, their compatibility is very high. I meant the feeling of touch—I hope its intensity won’t decrease after I have a pet.
As a medicine that summarizes a great deal of experience, TCM is undoubtedly very valuable. When modern medicine has problems it cannot solve, one can turn to TCM.
Only by consciously writing down dreams can they stay in memory. I’m not sure I can understand “reducing negative effects”—seeing clearly that it’s actually not that scary 🤔. Remembering beautiful dreams only keeps me in a good mood for a short time, before I’m fully awake.
She was very, very successful. If this response can’t get me out of LE, then I’m probably beyond saving 😆. I think all possibilities exist, but I can’t guess anymore. I hope it won’t become a lifelong mystery.
I think if you’ve done what you should, his pain is no longer your concern. A warm LO will give the limerent unnecessary hope, but there’s no need to be cold in order to shorten his pain. Honestly communicating any feelings and then leaving when necessary seems like a good approach. The response only needs enough information and respect to let him clearly experience the necessary pain.
To some extent, a hobby is a talent. Free improvisation shows that inspiration is no longer satisfied with “just doing this thing” itself 😲.
I like things like sketching, weaving structure and images with lines, but I’m not very sensitive to color. Classical portraits are too perfect and complex. I like conceptual things. I’m not sure if it’s an undeveloped preference.
Thank you, and I wish you health and happiness, and enjoyment of all your hobbies in life! 🫂
Thanks, I’ve joined the waiting list. (After all the months on this forum it felt really wrong putting my real name in a box).
This sounds really helpful for me right now: I understand why the limerent episode started and the problems which led to it are fixed or no longer an issue. Things are good in my relationship, but I still get into unhelpful thought loops, including thoughts of LO amongst other things. Even just calling them thought loops helps rationalise what’s happening in my brain and turning down the emotional temperature. I look forward to finding out what the workshop entails.
☁️,
“Even just calling them thought loops helps rationalise what’s happening in my brain and turning down the emotional temperature.”
I resonate with you that if I can verbalize in writing about, especially, negative OCD emotions/thoughts, ie. depression or anxiety or worries about a pending logistical matter, they’d lose their “disturbing” strength and emotional “temperature”. The issue with me is that sometimes, I was unable to Name what I was feeling, it’s often a jumbo mambo of a “flowing/bouncing” stuff…
I wonder if Dr L’s workshop could help my mental OCD, so often ruminating on all sorts of stuff in my head.
I’m so glad to hear that the issue that caused your LE are “fixed”, was this the only root? do you think you’d ever fall into another LE? (Glimmer would occur again in anyone perhaps 🤔 until their deathbed… )
The pandemic had a lot to do with it, for various reasons, making me feel isolated and taking away all of my opportunity to work and express myself. Not being able/allowed to meet people made it all the more glimmery when I did meet someone while out in the park. My SO has also made some significant changes which I won’t go into here. I can’t say that I won’t have other crushes or other limerence, but it was a specific set of circumstances which caused this limerent episode, and they no longer apply. I’m not worried about having crushes in future, as it’s fine to find people attractive and I do that sometimes without it becoming obsessive. I’m more worried about continuing limerence for LO and that’s my motivation for wanting to do this thought loops workshop.
Cloud,
Re your last sentence there, I empathise. Even after all the intellectual work has been done to understand has happened and why, a particular person’s ‘hold’ (as LO) on a limerent seems strong … even when they’re not doing anything to keep hold.
I believe it is nothing much to do with the LO, and more to do with the limerent hankering back after all the colour that the glimmery phase of limerence brought (or seemed to bring) into their life at that time when it was needed. It’s like we’ve broken it on an intellectual level where we know LO is no good for us … but it’s a whole different game breaking the emotional associations that he or she provides. Like the thought loops happen on two levels – one more in the head, one more in the heart.
Workshops, books, articles, reminders. What honestly works? Or is it only when our hearts and minds really want to rid ourselves of this nightmare?
Looking back in my journals that I started in March, I noticed that I gave myself lots of good advice, in between the highs and lows I wrote about. It hasn’t yet clicked.
Just this weekend, I started up a whole new fantasy of LO, all while knowing the reality of this situation. Then spent two days this week at work terribly sad that LO doesn’t reciprocate or show any interest.
I’ve honestly thought about asking him if he was okay with me. Could you imagine the confusion on his face if I did ask him? He’s only really going to talk to me if he needs something work related but then I remember the few occasions where we casually talk or he’d come to my office to say good morning.
The pain isn’t as intense as it was but it’s still there. The anticipation is still there but not as much. Making slow progress.
I literally feel sick…
I was offered a chance at a faith based group healing program (to work out the deeper issues) but SO doesn’t want our business out there for the whole town to know. Possibly, I’m using that as an excuse to continue this LE.
“Or is it only when our hearts and minds really want to rid ourselves of this nightmare?”
In a nutshell, yes. I was just watching a youtube video on limerence by the Crappy Childhood Fairy, and she said limerence is magical thinking and an escape from reality.
So, when you’re ready to return to reality (as annoying as that sounds), that’s when the LE at least starts to fade. It usually takes time to get rid of it completely. On some level, I think it’s a decision, a mental shift. Saying to yourself, “I’m done with this,” and starting to act in a way that would facilitate the ending (staying away from the LO, trying to get involved in other things so as not to dwell on the LO, etc.).
LIAMF,
You are very clear/logical minded about how futile your LE is, but unable to kick it out of your mind as fast as you wish.
I think you may want to pay more attention or taken more actions to remove its cause— the deeper issues and unsupportive SO. If LE’a root is existing and active, the LE will not go away. The ROOT is cause of the LE and excuse to cling to the LE.
If SO only cares about his own reputation more than your mental well-being, then this marriage is facing a huge problems — lack genuine loving and caring. you need to talk with SO through private therapy. You need to assess if it’s savable.
For the deeper issues, can you find an affordable private therapist? In a group setting, it’s very hard to dig deep within the private. Also others’ issues could trigger and worsen your own.
Edit: “digging within the private, naked self”.