It’s October. Time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffee house.
My week has been super busy with prep for the Obsessive Thoughts Workshop. It’s launching in 8 hours time.
Last chance to get the discounted price of $49.
Sign up now if you want to learn how to break free of obsessive thought loops without withdrawal pain.
Social media and indirect contact
OK, moving on to something new.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the impact of social media on limerence, as it’s a topic that comes up a lot in discussion.
I’ve written before about how it can be a sort of double addiction. As well as the limerent reward, there’s also the dopamine hit of checking your phone for an update.
If you have an LO who posts a lot on social media, the temptation to check for updates will be driven by both desire for indirect contact with them and desire for a quick social media hit.
What I hadn’t really considered before was the impact of the times when you don’t get the rewards.
When you check and there is no update.
That isn’t neutral, when it comes to reward signalling in the brain. It registers as a reward prediction error.
The original impulse to check is your dopamine neurons firing to motivate you to seek reward, so you check their feed, and… no new message.
Your hope is disappointed.
That silences your dopamine neurons, and as a result you feel bad. A dip in dopamine is aversive.
This phenomenon is partly why uncertainty is so powerful for reinforcing limerence – you are constantly experiencing reward prediction errors, so your dopamine levels are peaking and dipping and never settle down. You can’t learn a correct pattern of behaviour that reliably gives the reward.
Instead, you are trapped in a state of expectancy. Never knowing. Always wondering. Constantly reinforcing the addiction.
A good example of this principle is managing nicotine cravings. If airline cabin crew know that they are on a long-haul flight and aren’t going to be able to smoke for a long time, their cravings subside. There’s no uncertainty. They make peace with the limitation.
But, as their arrival time approaches, the exact moment when they will at last be able to light up and take a deep draught of smoke into their expectant lungs comes closer, but is not yet certain. That sends their cravings into overdrive.
Expectancy is tough for mood regulation.
I suspect this is more important for intensifying limerence symptoms than I previously realised.
So, there’s a topic to kick things off today: has expectant waiting on social media (or email or texting) affected your limerence cravings?
Anyone noticed a pattern?
I am not on social media, so that is one problem I don’t have.
Also, LO is not much of a texter, so that’s not really a problem, either.
My limerence seems to have bottomed out for the time being. Where I do have a problem is that being around LO is thrilling, even though my opinion of him continues to slide downward.
I estimate that I am at about 20% of my original insanity, which I actually find to be bearable. Since I am finding it bearable, actually enjoyable, I can’t seem to come up with a way to motivate myself to reduce it further.
On the one hand, I am pleased to be doing as well as I am doing. On the other hand, I have self-loathing that I could be so attracted to a man who says so many things that I find objectionable.
I saw LO yesterday. He brought up the “unedited” video of the Minneapolis confrontation between ICE agents and civilian Renee Good, who was shot dead in what appears to be an unprovoked attack. I asked him if he had been able to find the video showing that Ms. Good rammed the ICE agent with her car. He snapped at me that it would take him 30 minutes to find it, suggesting that he was never going to do so. Just as well, because I am sure it doesn’t exist.
The fact that he continues to believe that Ms. Good instigated the attack and deserved to be shot is ridiculous and completely unacceptable.
Yet I continue to drool.
Speaking of which, did you see the family just filed lawsuits over this? I watched Becca Good’s portion of the news conference they gave. There were so many awful things said about her online, and about Renee, basically painting them as frauds or convicts or that they brought it on themselves—and they’re just ordinary people. There’s Becca struggling to move on without the love of her life, trying to raise Renee’s youngest child and get him to Kindergarten, while he’s desperately missing his mother. And I go into the comments of the AP article (oh why did I do that) and people are still in there with their character assassinations.
To Serial:
I did notice that. One good thing is that LO would not be online attacking her, I will at least give him credit for that.
But I fail to understand why these people are so vilified.
I’m not on social media and since I became Limerent almost 3 years ago I’m so thankful that I’m one of the few who stays away from it. I believe it’s more than a double edged sword, maybe more like a triple edged sword.
On the first edge I’d be checking it constantly to see if she posted any pics of herself which would only feed the addiction and break the no contact rule.
On the second edge I might see that she had a get together with a group of friends over the weekend and couldn’t even think to invite me giving me a huge sense of FOMO/ (fear of missing out).
On the third edge I would constantly be posting pictures of myself doing cool things like extinguishing a vehicle fire with all of my turnout gear and air pack on as a way to look all heroic or letting everyone know I just got back from a 10 mile run. And I would only be doing it with the purpose of trying to get my LO to notice and maybe comment, not for my own good.
In my humble opinion social media is nothing more than adding gasoline to a fire for us limerents!
10 miles? That’s a half of Marathon 🏃♂️ Very impressive 👍! You’d run your LO out of your system soon…
Keep it Up 💪
To Richie:
Such a great post. Social media is one big exercise in FOMO.
I already suffer from FOMO due to being disabled and semi-housebound. I prefer not to think about all the activities I can’t participate in. I’m not in denial, but I don’t want to shove my own face into it, either.
Now, if I could extinguish a vehicle fire while running ten miles (?), that might be a different story. (Might as well combine your accomplishments for an additional boost.)
I don’t think any long-distance jugglers, runners, walkers would carry with them a whole air pack, except a big bottle of water w/o a smart watch.
Extinguishing a vehicle (most likely someone else’s) 🔥, with whatever one has in hand, is truly heroic!
The most challenge still lies on how to extinguish LE 🔥 in 1 year or 5 decades… 😍
Dear Snow ❄️
Great point about extinguishing my LE 😆!
However according to Dr L and several other sources Limerence on average lasts between 18 months to 3 years. The very end of this month will mark 3 years since my infatuation began so fingers crossed 🤞 that I wake up bright and early on November 1st and my LE is 100% gone! 😆 however I’m not going to hold my breath.
To Richie:
When I hit my three-year anniversary of limerence, I naively thought that my feelings for LO would turn off like an expired parking meter.
Didn’t happen. However, when I look back at how badly I was bouncing off the walls in 2023 and 2024, I feel blessed to be doing relatively well today.
I’m coming up on 3-1/2 years, and I think I am stuck at a plateau, but it’s not unpleasant.
To Miss Snow:
I was trying to make fun of the way that people exaggerate on social media.
Too bad Richie can’t extinguish all of our limerence problems with his cool firefighter gear!
Richie,
Oh, by November 1st your ❤️🔥 will be gone 🪽 with 💨 ?
Okay, I’ll trick-n-treat a ❤️🔥 👻 to leave on 10/31 evening 🎃 , and then check with you the next day…. 🤪
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
I’m not on Social Media (except a suspended work IG), so I did NOT even get your joke. Anything on SM does not interest me.
Let’s see if Richie could extinguished his own ❤️🔥 🔥 by the end of this month, with all his cool gears from his work…
Thank you Norma. And to clarify I’m a firefighter/ EMT in my town so that’s why I used that as an example and just like my LO I’ve been a runner for over 20 years so that’s why I used the 10 mile example.
I am very sorry to hear you are disabled and semi-housebound but I always enjoy reading your posts. Thank you and all the best to you!
To Richie:
You don’t have to clarify. Your post was very clear. I was just making an attempt at a joke.
Also, perhaps a gentle poke at myself–just yesterday, I screamed with ecstasy because I was able to install the Hulu app on my TV correctly.
Richie,
I think the 3-year expiration date really depends on the limerent and the specific circumstances around the LE and, most importantly, what they’re doing to end the LE.
I’ve had LEs last one year. I’ve had some last more than 3.
I’ve never looked up my LO on social media, but the pictures that would really bother me wouldn’t be work photos. It would be pics with his SO. Or pics with him and some woman. I’d wonder if he was hooking up with her.
Thanks for the input Marcia.
The one thing I’ve mentioned before on this site is that I’ve noticed how far I’ve come over the past year.
Like so many limerents I spent the first year not being able to sleep and having to take Z-quil just to get a few hours of sleep. Now I’m finally almost totally back to normal even though the thoughts will always be there.
The one thing this has taught me is to never ever let this happen again!
„ adding gasoline to a fire for us limerents“
So true. Looking at LOs picture doesn‘t make sense and just hurts. Writing a message or staying in contact is gasoline! I wish my inner fire departement would to its work..
For this impossible, harmful LE 🔥, your “inner fire department” indeed needs to be fixed or renovated completely…
You have stayed away from checking this creepy LO’s profile, right? I hope so… 🙂
To ❄️
(no need to reply🥰)
There are many azure-winged magpies, blackbirds, and sparrows that appear in another green area; the previous area doesn’t seem to be their favorite.
And the hard-to-identify bird—I was puzzled by its plumage color. It seemed to be a blackbird with feather loss/fading around its neck 😂. I may have seen it again, together with other blackbirds. The feather I picked up is probably from an azure-winged magpie, though it’s a bit larger than I thought.
In Chinese superstitions, the blackbirds circling is always ominous sign signaling some deaths make place.
Azure-winged magpies are so loved and rare in the north.
Lucky you can see them! Maybe they can help you forget your “infatuating Dalmatian”… 🐩
😀
Edit:
“Some death may take place.”
Thank you! Some birds can be very common depending on the area. Today, an azure-winged magpie I was staring at preened with its back to me (showing off such alluring tail feathers, butt, fluff, and claws—I’m not a cat). If I could be with those lovely wings, I’m sure it would be much harder for LE to happen.
New try, one week now.. He sent me a message on Monday, „Hi“. I didn’t answer and deleted the chat.
Unfortunately I still think of him too much, my feelings for him are too much.. I never forget what he said to me on the phone over two years ago, „if I wouldn’t be married and if I wouldn’t have a child, I would have been with you already „.. 😞
Laloba,
Even if what he said to you two years ago were true, the reality is totally different story; anyone could say those beautiful, empty word, why his words weight so much to? Have you searched enough possible answers?
I believe what you’re expressing here, it’s just that myself can no longer comprehend how one is able to generate so much feelings for someone she has never met in person… 🤔
What a mysterious power! (I was naively “fooled” once by words only, later I wouldn’t trust words alone, even my own, which were often fed just by imaginations alone… )
How come you can’t block his messaging? Or you just can’t do it yet? *sigh*
LO has all sorts of positions in the church, community, AND demanding job, and he often shuts off his personal phone, so he’s never done a lot of texting. Doesn’t do much on social media, either, though he does now and then. BUT just searching for his name in the Facebook would bring up his picture to gaze at….
I already have a tough enough time dealing with LO in real life. Having access to him on social media would probably kill me. Been tempted to search for him on social media but haven’t because I’d probably show up as a friend suggestion on his feed. I’m also not on s.m. as much anymore. I get no dopamine hit from it.
I’d love to find a way to get a good dopamine hit that doesn’t involve things that would be bad for me.
LO and I were talking recently about his involvement in a club sport in my town and that he also goes to a public market in my town after practice. So I’m on s.m. later that day and there’s a post about the market, which never showed up before, and another post about a female team begging for players for that same club sport. Limerent me, seriously considered joining the team but wouldn’t that be weird to start doing the same sport as LO?
Speaking of weird, LO told me exactly what time he’d be at the market in MY town (and he knows I live there), so my limerent brain went into overdrive. The stars aligned perfectly. My S.O. was busy and I had free time to go to the market in hopes of running into him. Luckily, I ran into my neighbors and walked around with them. I couldn’t locate LO but then later saw him leaving. No clue if he saw me. Then I was terrified that if he did see me, he’d think I’m a stalker. But he was in MY town. Lol. My safe space and my market. Don’t worry, I probably won’t have an opportunity to do that again, as S.O. isn’t normally busy at that time and I’d probably end up going to the market with SO.
Fast forward a few days later, I had a pleasant surprise. Got to spend a solid two hours with LO walking close to him in a crowded setting which meant we bumped into each other a few times. He seemed to enjoy me being by his side/following him around like a puppy dog. I even apologized to him for being clingy (I hate being in crowds and losing the people I’m with) and I think he said something cute and touched my shoulder but my brain has blocked that memory out (just imagine the hours of ruminating). Those two hours left such a good feeling and I just want to hang onto that because it was calming and cozy. It’s that exact feeling that I wish I could have forever without any depressive crashes and cravings for LO.
I’m tired of the anticipation of interactions with LO as they always disappoint but I’d welcome pleasant surprises. Maybe there would be enough of those to snuff out my limerence or at least kill the ups and downs of this LE, get me back to a stable mood.
I would think of some creative, artistic hobbies, even starting from scratch: painting, drawing, (thin rice) paper cutting (a Japanese art form), creative writing, blogging, collaging, sculpturing, etc…
The artistic creation has been proven effective to reduce/cure stressed mind, and bring pleasant, stable “creative high” (w/o surprises), just look at Yayoi Kusama, my iSO auntie whose oil-painting got quite good.
I think you can join that female sport team, as long as LO would not be in the club. Physical sweating is really helpful to ease anxious or ruminating mind.
Dealing with another bout of sadness. Yay. The “high” from last week didn’t last very long. Lol! I know that pattern well now, yet can’t break the cycle. 7 months and counting… Blah.
So perhaps try some Stoic tricks: lower down your expectation, lower your “high” to “moderate” (not too low, perhaps 40~50%)?
Moderation of something often last longer, more stable, especially when you yourself generate/create that “something”, not depending on LO’s interests totally (perhaps a little bit as a push/catalyst)? 🙂
A correction here: I meant to low down one’s “Hope” to
40~50%, but 0% Expectation!
Expectation brings one disappointments (all the time), but hopes (with steady efforts for your own benefits) pumps one to get out of the bed in the morning and have a health dose of imaginations before bedtime…
“Tomorrow is another day…”
As soon as my LO began her serious, new relationship, I exited Instagram. I thought it would be too painful to see her happiness laid out in front of me, having built the fantasy alternative reality in my head that she was usually just at home most of the time, mooning over me (I know 😐).
I returned to Insta, tentatively, a few months later – only to discover that she had not only ‘unfriended’ me, but had also removed me from her list of followers. To this day, I have no idea whatsoever why she felt the need to do that and is certainly something I would never raise. But we both have private accounts, so there is no way of seeing what she posts now, even if I wanted to.
This is, without question, an unequivocally GOOD THING and there are two main reasons for that:
1) I can enjoy looking at what my friends and family are up to knowing I won’t, at any stage, be confronted with something that will upset/trigger/unsettle me. It’s freeing!
2) More profoundly, I am now able to enjoy something (Insta) which I previously believed was only about HER. She was the reason I began using it, she was the one ‘like’ I craved on every single one of my posts. I was addicted to her approval.
This is how I felt about a lot of things related to her and when our friendship ended I was utterly frightened by the idea that so many of my actions, behaviours, decisions, impulses had been driven by my addiction to her all along. I told my therapist how scared I was that she was the scaffolding holding up the crumbling edifice of my emotional life. Remove the scaffolding… and what would be left?
In reality, the building is fine, the structure is sound, and removing the scaffolding has revealed how beautiful it has been all along. Social media is a microcosm of that. I enjoy it unashamedly… but even more now, without a malevolent element reinforcing my addiction.
Come away if you can.
To Phil:
What a great summary of the mind games that social media can play.
I am so glad you have found some peace.
I still won’t go on Instagram because I have issues with estranged children and a horrible ex-husband. My ex-husband’s new wife used to post prolifically on Instagram, bragging and exaggerating about everything.
When my youngest daughters were still at home, they showed me a video of her at a country line-dancing event, where she captioned herself “the best of the best.” I burst out laughing. She was a marginally adequate dancer who knew the steps and could keep time to the music.
Which is why I attempted to make a joke above about Richie and his accomplishments, but you really should not try to make jokes on the internet because it’s too confusing.
I’ll go back to the over-70 table now and look at my bone scans.
“In reality, the building is fine, the structure is sound, and removing the scaffolding has revealed how beautiful it has been all along. Social media is a microcosm of that.”
A microcosm of what? “Sound building” of a personal life? A pictographs of a personal life? How many people in SM also honestly show their laundry of various colors? How much smiles covering swallowed, lonely tears (of Robin Williams or Matthew Perry), followed by thousands of viewers’ laughters?
A life made of words and pictures alone is superficial, partial and impersonal to me. I get to know people through my naked eyes and realistic interactions over a period of time.
I’m staying away from SM, while I can “follow/lead” people in reality.
That’s not what I meant, but I clearly didn’t articulate it very well.
I mean I was concerned that my social media activity/behaviour was entirely dictated by my LO, and that this was actually a microcosm of my wider emotional wellbeing and how she infected it.
Got it! I was thinking possible issues of SM in a broader scale.
You sound doing very well with the “freedom” without LO! Keep it up, no more peeking…🫣
My father taught me not to ask questions that I didn’t want to know the answer to.
Looking at your LO’s social media is a great way to reinforce that you just might not be all that special to them.
Going further, one of my EAP counselor’s favorite questions was: “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
That woman could be a real buzzkill.
In the situation of an unavailable LO, ignorance is REALLY a blessing!
Our imagination of anyone will die soon or later without being fed by scattered information.
LE,
“My father taught me not to ask questions that I didn’t want to know the answer to.”
This made me laugh. It’s like the old adage: Never ask a man, “Where is this going?” If you have to ask, you already know the answer.
To L.E.:
Another question. If I start wishing that I would bump into LO, I ask myself, “If I bump into him, what will I HAVE?”
Q: Why do you keep banging your head against the wall?
A: Because it feels good when I stop.
To L.E.:
There is merit to that argument.
I think it’s simpler than we think. You find him attractive. He sets off feelings you can’t get elsewhere. His bad points are irrelevant to this simple fact.
Your friend’s suggestion is hilarious.
I’m working through the Thought Loops course at the moment. Even having read Dr L’s book and read lots of his material on here, I’m finding it helpful and it brings new perspectives to my situation.
For me, I don’t mind finding LO attractive. Just a normal crush makes life more interesting and isn’t a threat to my marriage. It’s thinking about him when he’s not there that I would still like to reduce, and the Thought Loops course is helpful for this. I already think about him far less than I used to but extra understanding and control of the situation is still helpful.
To Miss Cloud:
I also think my friend’s comments are hilarious, which is why I posted them. I don’t take offense at all; I know she doesn’t understand, and she’s technically correct. LO IS nothing special. I don’t necessarily think he’s a bad influence on me. He’s not trying to persuade me to do anything unwise, although the time I spend thinking about him might be better spent elsewhere.
“Q: Why do you keep banging your head against the wall?
A: Because it feels good when I complain about the pain to others and get their sincere sympathy. The more I get, the more I’ll bang against the wall”
The view from outside Norma’s bubble, compliments of another neighbor, a dear friend of mine, who does not understand limerence.
“LO’s house is an EYESORE! It will never sell. You’d have to be crazy to buy that piece of crap. It looks like a dump!! It will take a special buyer with lots of money. He made a big mistake buying that house. Poor investment.
“I have passed him when he has been standing outside by his house. He is nothing special. I don’t understand it. He is a bad influence, Norma! You are nuts.
“How old is he? 67? Maybe he has early onset dementia.”
To which I say, “But he makes my knees go weak.”
To which she says, “That’s crazy. Why don’t you think about doing charity work instead?”
“That’s crazy. Why don’t you think about doing charity work instead?””
I think that is great advice.
That’s a sign when the limerent is getting better. When there’s less focus on what the LO is doing
and more focus on what they are doing in their own life, their own goals, their own hobbies.
When you (generic limerent) start posting about things you are excited about in your own life, that’s when you know you are moving along on the road of recovery.
Social media played a big, if not the biggest part in the development of my LE. I really want to go into this in more detail here, when I have the time..it’s been hard to get away from it but I finally did yet I still find it hard, if not impossible sometimes, it is not to be underestimated. Thank you for this topic because I have a lot to say about it…
Congratulations, that you finally stayed away from social media!
The temptation of checking xLO would always be there, particularly you were together once upon a time….
Did you say something like that your glimmer at xLO hit you like a freight train, more than a decade ago or recently? So you’ve stopped checking his SM now? Wow, that would be superbly challenging! 🧗
Forgive me if I don’t remember your LE story clearly… 🙂
No worries! And thanks, you remember quite a lot. We briefly dated over a decade ago and there was no glimmer. I met my SO, forgot about him, then we met again. I just wanted to say hi to him, because I was in a phase where I wouldn’t hold any grudges to anyone and simply wanted to recognize his exsistence and the fact that I remembered him, no glimmer, no intentions, probably some naïvety on my side. That’s when he asked if I were on socials and he added me and I instantly regretted my approach. He started sending me messages scattered in the years after that…a like here, a heart there, some chats ‘You crossed my mind lately…’ started talking about topics that interest me, invited me out for walks..Oh yes why not? We can be friends right? Regardless of my SO, there are no deep feelings here right? So let’s be friendly. A like here, a like there, some invites. Oh you know I might be more ‘active’ right now but nothing I post has anything to do with the fact that I am in desperate need of that one little heart from that one particular person? ‘You are my type of woman’ oh yeah sure. Wait a minute..so I am somebody’s type? Now why should you tell me all this? You can imagine the impact. So back and forth, no glimmer..until my relationship with SO got in a rut years later. Turned into a crisis, a near breakup, and then we met again and that’s when the freight train glimmer happened. I could see something sparkling in his eyes and it scared the shite out of me and it made me lose myself in a burst of euphoria simultaneously and it was weird and amazing and nothing I had ever felt before. But I couldn’t act on it. I was in crisis mode. And then the social media thing really hit off and there was no escape. It’s been an intense few years of intermitted reïnforcement, ambiguous encounters, hot cold, breadcrumbs…I am so glad that me and SO worked it out through all this and we are doing so good. But the pull of social media is still there, even though in time I hid, then unfriended, then even deactivated my account. But his posts are set public so in just a few clicks it is so easy to keep up to date, it’s brutal. But the thing that really made me get off the apps completely was the photograph of him and his new girlfriend. So there you go, self preservation mode on. I feel better now. But it’s been tough. Blocking all socials from my life was the best thing I could do.
I see, it’s a story of a long-term, committed relationship conquering transitory, intense limerence, despite its addictive drug quality!
I agree that social media is gasoline to unwanted, unhealthy relations, including “friendship”.
Confradulations again! 🏆
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My entire connection in my LE was 100% based on social media. I was constantly waiting for his new stories, new profile pictures, new messages, and even for him to be online on the Messenger I use, which I could track down to the exact minute. On bad days, I checked my phone every few minutes just so I wouldn’t miss my next hit of dopamine. It was awful.
Are you aware that what you know about your online LO is only fragmented, imagined, or biased (based on your hopes), since you’ve never met him in person?
His new stories, profiles pictures, messages, video clips, etc could all be contrived/performed to impress you and his other “dates” (behind his wife); they’re not realistic or integral of him.
It’s your own imaginations of him and his life, based on those fragmented information that GIVES you a hit of dopamine.
Yes, it is only in my head.. It is so hard to let go. Sometimes it filled my emptyness inside when I checked his profile. when I feel sad and he just writes „whats up?“, I am feeling better.
Can’t you see that the cause of your LE is not LO or his words, even if they’re true, but it’s the sense of your “emptiness”.
If you feel purposeful, busy with your work, your daughter, and your personal life, whatever he says would not make a dent in your life…
Have you sought out therapy to help you with your personal inquiries “what is truly missing in my life? why? How can I reduce/remove the sense of emptiness without using this internet LO as a temporary, inauthentic “painkiller”?
Sorry if I speak too straightforward.
If I knew why I’m so attached to him, I’d be a big step ahead. I told my therapist about it. She isn’t that familiar with limerence. From a psychodynamic perspective, it’s certainly because the inner child in me is searching for affection, attention, and love. An emotional bond is possible even through pure chatting. Since I chatted with him a lot, talked on the phone sometimes, and exchanged quite a few photos, feelings were able to develop. And in my head, the perfect boyfriend started to form. Plus, I just really like the way he looks. That’s a dangerous mix. When I feel lonely, I miss something and project it onto him. It feels to me as if I love him, but this pain is probably due to the fact that I would simply like to have a partner by my side.
Laloba,
If I remember clearly, you guys chatted a lot of erotic stuff, and he’s married and lives hundreds of miles away.
Despite photos and video clips, you have never held his hands, or 5-sense sensed his entire being in reality; you don’t viscerally know YET whether if he’d be a fit partner by your side physically in your reality. Intellectual knowledge and imagination based on words is still very different from visceral experiences.
One’s look is subjective to beholder’s eyes and can’t alone product emotional connection… He goes to bed with his wife daily and might also chat erotic stuff with other females online, how could he ever be a “perfect boyfriend”?! If he were single, then it’d be a different story.
I get it that glimmer and limerence can develop online involuntarily. You clearly know your inner child (the same with many people) needs deep, unconditional love and affection; projecting whatever you miss onto him/LO is expected during LE, but can you realistically get them from him?
And you have a daughter to raise, as a child, she really needs your unconditional affection, attention, love. Now, how could you focus on her while you’re so stuck in a totally unavailable LO? Have you ever thought what your daughter would be like in the future, if your heart/mind is always absent while raising her? She’d grow into another YOU!
In your situation, LE is spiritually/emotionally harmful to both your daughter and yourself. If you can find some available men nearby to fall in smaller crush, that would be helpful.
Wow…i mean. ❄️(snow) That sounds quite harsh. You can’t really drill somebody out of limerence by imposing massive guilt, besides, mothers are humans too and you can be an amazing mother while still being limerent for someone. I was going through a breakup and addictive LE while being an employee for a terrible boss and while it was extremely hard and felt impossible at times still I showed up the best i could manage. In fact limerence is a deeply human thing and it just shows you’re wired for connection.
The thing is that being in limerence while being with an SO made me wonder what it is exactly that I crave for, what attracted me to LO. There is no higher form of romantic love than the companionship you build over the years with someone who really knows you, yet I still crave for LO because it’s different. My answer was ‘my SO doesnt want/crave/long for me like LO does. SO knows me through and through, including my negative sides but doesn’t long for the made up version of me. And it is this particular version you long for that is built up out of the scarce and scattered fragments you know of them, how you have experienced them and the image you see of them and you remember as their facade. And even if you’ve experienced them in real life, your mind is still stubborn to remember the parts as you like to see them. And the unsettling thing is it is not even them you want in reality, you are really attatching to a ghost. But if they cease to exist in the way you’ve built them up that means that the person they long for (you) disappears as well, or has no witness and destination anymore. So the qualities you like within yourself, the confidence they boost within you, all gone with the illusion. That is why you are what you love, not what loves you. Because all those qualities aren’t dead and gone as soon as you lose LO..they are alive and kicking within yourself and being in LE just points towards those qualities within that need your attention and nurturing. Hope this makes sense. It doesn’t come with willpower, it happens gradually and in time you’ll begin to realize and reclaim your love as yours, and all aspects that attract you to them were yours to begin with.
Kat,
“That sounds quite harsh. You can’t really drill somebody out of limerence by imposing massive guilt, besides, mothers are humans too and you can be an amazing mother while still being limerent for someone.”
You’re right that I can’t drill anyone out of limerence by imposing morality or guilt. But I can urge them to use their mind (if a bit out of the altered state of the mind) to think for their own offspring’s long-term wellbeing. Isn’t this a goal of LwL?
I didn’t assume that all limerents can’t be a good parent, but Laloba told us here in the past that her mind was with her LO while taking care of her daughter, which made either her daughter or herself sad (I can’t clearly remember the details). She felt guilty herself and agreed with me that she’d make efforts to act out like a caring mother.
From age 10~15, my mother was in LE with that spy LO first and then a maintenance-worker LO on campus. I got coldly ignored, severely scolded, or sudden ace slaps for 5 years until I finally stopped her by giving back one slap on her face! She’s in constant irritable moods or impatience, so my mental and physical abuse continued after coming back from the exile (during which she didn’t treat me badly), inflicted by my mother in a series of LE.
By definition and as everyone knows here, LE in its peak or limbo stage is very consuming, agonizing, and distracting. Children of any age are very sensitive to detect parents’ moods and attention. They know, even without language, whether their caregiver’s mind/heart was with them or not!
“I was going through a breakup and addictive LE while being an employee for a terrible boss and while it was extremely hard and felt impossible at times still I showed up the best i could manage.”
Are you comparing your insentient work with a 10-yrs old child’s growing needs that requires a mother’s devoted attention, affection, and love (without getting directly paid)? Can I assume that you haven’t raised a child (your own, an adopted or step-child)? Sorry, if I’m wrong.
“In fact limerence is a deeply human thing and it just shows you’re wired for connection.”
So the other 50% of population in the non-limerent tribe are not wired for connection and cannot find a beloved mate? By now, we have learned from LwL that limerence is NOT real love, but a gigantic infatuation (mostly blind), a crazy urge to form a pair-bond with LO, whether a good or dodge one.
Between children and their parents in LE, I’ll always speak on behalf of the children, since they don’t have a voice here. I think and hope you can understand why…
*****
“The thing is that being in limerence while being with an SO made me wonder what it is exactly that I crave for, what attracted me to LO.”
Every partnered liemrent here seems to have their own reasons, sometimes not so uncommon from a bystander’s eyes.
“There is no higher form of romantic love than the companionship you build over the years with someone who really knows you, yet I still crave for LO because it’s different.“
You mean once settled/committed, all romantic elements of a partnership would be gone/dead? And a steady, loving companionship is not/never enough for a limerent?
While believing your SO “really knows” you inside out, do you really know all your selfs (in IFS terms)? What exactly did you crave LO for?
“My answer was ‘my SO doesn’t want/crave/long for me like LO does.”
Can’t remember your story in details; what your LO longs/craves for you which SO doesn’t?
“SO knows me through and through, including my negative sides but doesn’t long for the made up version of me. “
What’s the “made up version of” you? Does SO know this version? LO knows and craves for it?
“And it is this particular version you long for that is built up out of the scarce and scattered fragments you know of them, how you have experienced them and the image you see of them and you remember as their facade.”
You switched the topic here, from a made-up version of you to of them? I assume “them” is LO? Your SO doesn’t know this version of you, since you haven’t disclosed your LE to him, right?
“And even if you’ve experienced them in real life, your mind is still stubborn to remember the parts as you like to see them. “
Yes, you’re creating an idealized phantom inside you, instead of dealing with/accepting the realistic LO. I experienced that in my XLE.
“And the unsettling thing is it is not even them you want in reality, you are really attaching to a ghost.”
Yes, attaching to your own “phantom”, which is not LO, but from inside you.
“But if they cease to exist in the way you’ve built them up that means that the person they long for (you) disappears as well, or has no witness and destination anymore. “
If I understand you here correctly, I disagree with your view. The imagined/created phantom is just one part of you, not all of your selfs. It is overwhelmingly “powerful”/big because you probably projected the phantom onto LO. The phantom just temporarily blocked/repressed your other (IFS) selfs which are also quiet witnesses underneath the center/core.
“So the qualities you like within yourself, the confidence they boost within you, all gone with the illusion.”
They should not, because the qualities and confidence were already inside you sleeping prior to LE. LO/LE as a catalyst made them waking up or you seeing them. They can’t leave with the departure of the illusional LO/LE.
In my case, my XLE temporarily blocked my hidden qualities and confidence (of a lifetime), I subconsciously believed I needed a surrogate parent to feel cared, strong, and worthy. But once XLE following its root, the aged Longing, is pushed away by my own envision, my real selfs immediately surfaced and I magically become my own parent over a couple of hours….
“That is why you are what you love, not what loves you. “
Yes. But you’re more than “what you love” at present or in the past; just keep digging within, you’ll find out more or grow more.
“Because all those qualities aren’t dead and gone as soon as you lose LO..they are alive and kicking within yourself and being in LE just points towards those qualities within that need your attention and nurturing.”
You see (just as I said above), you’ve waken up your true inner qualities/selfs through the catalyst LE, and they remain with you even after LE is gone. No one or phantom can take them away; they can’t, even with your permission!
“Hope this makes sense. It doesn’t come with willpower, it happens gradually and in time you’ll begin to realize and reclaim your love as yours, and all aspects that attract you to them were yours to begin with.”
Superbly said! I think I totally understand what has happened to you, since I’ve gone through it myself more than 17 months ago…. So your LE has completely left you now?
Now, let’s hope and help Laloba see/find her inner powerful selfs which can and will sufficiently care and nurture her “inner child” and her real daughter. 👧
Snow,
Thank you for sharing your story because I feel I understand your response better now. What you describe sounds intense, painful and something You’re carrying with you forever. And I appreciate your sharing.
I’m not a mother myself and didn’t want to make it seem like I’m comparing the responsibilities of my job to those of of a mother, those are worlds apart. I wanted to encourage Laloba to not feel like a bad mother, like she can do it, regardless her condition, which can indeed be all consuming. We have to get through it in some way. It doesn’t just disappear with the right mindset. But I now understand your urgent reply.
It seems though you’re dissecting everything I say word for word without reading further into it. In the end I believe you understand what I’m trying to say. LO doesnt walk away with your inner qualities and they’re not literally gone (which is what I conclude in my reply), I’m talking from my own experience of identifying with the LE, and how the experience felt to me and why it was so painful letting LO go. Because it truly felt at the time like he took off with a vital part (or possibility) of me.
What I mean by no higher form of romantic love is that I wouldn’t trade SO for anyone. We’ve evolved significantly through my LO and I shared it with my SO at the time it was happening. The trust and love (cliche but true) that comes forth out of a durable, long term partnership is uncomparable and a totally different experience. Limerence is completely different from that and it mostly exists because of projection (of that made up version). As I projected my version of him onto LO (basically just how I wanted to see him), I was also constantly seeing myself through his lens (how I wanted to see myself and needed to be validated for). The difference with SO is that I believed, and still do, different people and different circumstances do bring out different parts of yourself, and I wanted to grow and evolve into that.
My LE isn’t completely gone. I’m still struggling with parts of me that feel ‘missing’ or ‘unfulfilled’. That’s why I’m still returning here I guess.
While everyone on here will understand eachother to some degree, you can never understand another completely because each individual case is so different and it’s really hard to explain deeply personal experiences, even to people who have experienced ‘the same’.
Kat,
A quick reply.
Sorry that I misunderstood your big “mumbo jumbo” message. I can better understand shorter sentences and paragraphs.
If your LO is still in the picture, then your vision is still a bit muddled, and can’t see what I’m seeing in my LE-free spot. In short, when LO/LE is gone one day, your awakened qualities — your own phantom, would not disappear or go back to sleep again. Try to envision it now.
Got to run now, later.
Kat,
“Thank you for sharing your story because I feel I understand your response better now. “
Thank you for your better understanding of my previous somewhat “aggravated” post….
“What you describe sounds intense, painful and something You’re carrying with you forever.”
The memory of that piece of history is still clear, but its emotional impact has been washed away by time, except when I recall and talk about it again/repeatedly (also while I have to take care of my unapologetic “abuser” at a regular basis).
That’s why I’m against the therapeutic method of “using anger to repress/avoid depression/dullness. The more one utilizes energy/Chi of resentment (fresh or old), the more that negative Chi intensifies and elongates, making one stuck in the cycle of resentment about something in the past one can never change except to let go. Practicing Stoicism can help dissipates resentment of all sorts for one’s long-term mental/emotional health.
“I wanted to encourage Laloba to not feel like a bad mother, like she can do it, regardless her condition, which can indeed be all consuming. We have to get through it in some way. It doesn’t just disappear with the right mindset. “
One is not a bad mother if she doesn’t abuse her children out of malice or ego to control. But if due to poor physical or mental health (LE falls in here temporarily), a mother takes out their frustrations/pains on her children or helplessly neglects them, then how would w advise/help her? Between a neglectful parent and their children, who’d be the longer sufferers? A truly caring/loving, aware limerent parent needs to repeatedly think/reason in this aspect; logical mind and right actions would lead F brain eventually.
“It seems though you’re dissecting everything I say word for word without reading further into it. “
I literally couldn’t understand (I’m an ESL speaker) what you were trying to say in that super long paragraph, so had to dissect it period by period, in order to comprehend one element in a long, circulatory sentence.
“In the end I believe you understand what I’m trying to say. LO doesn’t walk away with your inner qualities and they’re not literally gone (which is what I conclude in my reply)”
I was very glad to see your conclusion in the end, thus thought your LE was already gone. One’s inner qualities neither literally nor superficially gone, when an external mirror, LO, leaves, which just makes it harder for one to sense them within. The ultimate goal is to clearly see those qualities within and apply them for benefits of oneself (and others, SO), independent from both LO and SO.
“Because it truly felt at the time like he took off with a vital part (or possibility) of me.”
I know how hard/painful it could be to let LO go when one was not mentally/emotionally ready or the LE root was still alive inside one. However, “It truly felt like” indicates it’s an illusion, your logic clearly knows that your qualities stay within you, LO (not the realistic LO) was just a mirror reflecting them, which your SO, as another mirror, seemed unable to reflect at the time.
“What I mean by no higher form of romantic love is that I wouldn’t trade SO for anyone. “
Very wise of you, which would bring you a life-time steady gratifications and more happiness, hopefully.
“Limerence is completely different from that and it mostly exists because of projection (of that made up version).”
That’s what happened with my XLE, which I realized even before I found LwL.
“As I projected my version of him onto LO (basically just how I wanted to see him), I was also constantly seeing myself through his lens (how I wanted to see myself and needed to be validated for). “
Yes! As I said above and in my last post, “his lens” is not the realistic LO’s lens, but your idealized phantom’s lens, serving as a “mirror, reflecting what you already had and so wanted to be validated. So, metaphorically speaking, your own phantom’s eyes are seeing yourself; LO was just a walking “frame” temporarily holding your phantom. Do I make myself clear here?
“The difference with SO is that I believed, and still do, different people and different circumstances do bring out different parts of yourself, and I wanted to grow and evolve into that.”
I agree with you on that different people hold up different mirrors to us (through our interactions), to reflect or “bring out” different parts of us, known or unknown (on the back of our head). Here, you “wanted to grow and evolve into” what? the parts that SO reflects and the parts more echo and match SO’s parts?
“My LE isn’t completely gone. I’m still struggling with parts of me that feel ‘missing’ or ‘unfulfilled’. That’s why I’m still returning here I guess.”
Oh, I’m sorry to hear that. What are still “missing or unfulfilled” parts of present you? Can you name the “hole”? How long have you been here? Has LwL helped you figure out yet your LE’s root(s)? Can we, other aware limerents (different mirrors), possibly wake up the “missing” parts sleeping inside you?
“While everyone on here will understand each other to some degree, you can never understand another completely because each individual case is so different and it’s really hard to explain deeply personal experiences, even to people who have experienced ‘the same’.”
Totally agree. This truth also applies to: No one else, LO and SO included, can ever completely validate or invalidate our inner qualities and all experiences, only Oneself can do it!
I spent some time with LO yesterday and I am seeing more progress.
We had a good time talking, and I was less bothered by my limerence symptoms than usual. I wondered if our relationship could ever be a normal friendship?
I actually don’t think I’d want to be friends with LO. His complete self-absorption was on full display, again, and he did most of the talking.
The talk turned to pregnancy and I told him I had quite a lot of difficulty enduring two amniocentesis procedures for twins back when I was about four months pregnant. He called me a wimp and compared me unfavorably to his mother.
I don’t mind being called a wimp, because it’s true, but it’s unfair to compare me to someone who is more gifted genetically, since I have no control over that.
I told him right up front that I am disabled and have many medical problems. So OF COURSE I am going to have a hard time with a double amniocentesis! For one thing, you have to lay on the table for 90 minutes with a full bladder. That right there is hard, never mind the needles and everything else.
ND,
To “Blame the victim” a little, you did kind of set yourself up for that one.
You talked to a man, an insensitive man at that, in a lot of detail, about a uniquely female topic. You gave him the grenade. A lot of men might find that conversation in general uncomfortable. They shouldn’t but they do.
Telling him that you had significant complications with your pregnancies and let it go beyond that would have been better. If the details aren’t about him, he doesn’t care. It was unfair of him to compare you to his mother. He doesn’t care about that, either. Why didn’t you shut him down?
“You definitely don’t know my medical history and I’d guess that you don’t really know all that much about your mother’s. Don’t compare me to her.”
“I told him right up front that I am disabled and have many medical problems. So OF COURSE I am going to have a hard time with a double amniocentesis! For one thing, you have to lay on the table for 90 minutes with a full bladder.”
In one ear and out the other. It’s all about him. You know your LO. Quit setting yourself up for disappointment. Unless he encounters a burning bush or is struck blind, he’s not going to change. Enjoy his company but keep your expectations low.
Crap would come out of LO #2’s mouth all the time. I couldn’t decide if she was actually malicious or incredibly clueless. I’d explain something to her, she seemed to understand, and 5 minutes later, it was out of her head. I never sensed any vindictiveness or malice in her. Once I understood more about Cluster B personality disorders, I think it was probably the latter. But, I don’t take being demeaned well so I would shut LO #2 down. It got really old.
To L.E.:
Thank you so much for your reply. All excellent points, well taken.
I should have explained in more detail that LO compared me to his mother, who gave birth in the car on the way to the hospital when his younger brother was born.
Well, that’s a nonsensical comparison. His mother is far stronger than I am, and I concede that point. My question is, is LO willing to accept me as a wimp? Because I certainly can’t do any better.
And it’s not all bad being disappointed by LO. The more disappointment, the less limerence.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
That’s what happens when one is trying to “save” a damsel/lad in distress….
I’m with you in listening to someone else’s (except one’s SO) medical conditions in details — one’s privacy. My deceased aunts, Mom all “addicted” to chatting/complaining about their medical issues in such details, that I sometimes just wanted to vomit (I’m not trained as a doctor or a nurse). Why can’t they read some beautiful books and talk about them?
I just received a paper book newly published by the current wife (78) of my x-father-in-law. She worked on it tirelessly for 5~8 years while recovering from her mastectomy and Chemo therapy. A tiny, skinny, but optimistic, tough lady! (I’ll be seeing her again during Thanksgiving).
I haven’t read or thought about Proust for a while, but I saw him and a British King (visiting France, not Charles or two princes) in my dream last night. Along with a red-coat soldier, they three charmingly toured me in a huge, candle lit cave (can’t remember what we discussed).
In the end, I was asked (not sure by whom) where I’d want to take lounging for the evening, I chose to go with Proust, Of Course!
Then, we two walked through some Paris’ winding copper-stone streets in a quiet darkness (no one else was around) and reached to this 5 flats, red-brick building (Dutch style), adjacent with many other similar ones. Proust, in his flamboyant white silk scarf and his mustache, led me walking up stairs (no elevator).
Before I reached his humble looking apartment in the middle on the fifth floor, I woke up! Darn it! 😒 I was hoping to have an endless chat with him… 😍
Ha… remember one detail that I talked about with a British King (from a movie?) and Proust —
I invited them to visit America, but they both told me that they’re absolutely afraid of taking planes (neither took one before), like they just couldn’t swim 🏊♂️
I was a bit disappointed, ☹️ but continued charming strolling with them in the huge cave…. 😊
Maybe I should take more naps throughout day… 🤪
To Miss Snow:
Your dreams are amazing! That sounds like part of a fascinating novel.
And SO much better than icky medical procedures.
To Miss 🏠
I often imagine amazing 😻 /impossible 🎇 stuff in my head (even while enduring stomach discomfort or PT aching here and there) so my dreams could be possibly fabulous…
A lot of dreams 😴 (not all) depend on feeding of thoughts… I almost remember every night’s dreams, only that I don’t report them here daily or weekly, which would be annoying…. No one wants to listen to nightmares and I try to forget them.
Once written down, dreams become “real” to be remembered… 🤩
Can AI feel pain?
https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/m0033j38
Even if they cannot feel pain, should we verbally mistreat/abuse them, when they’re supposedly to assist our specific needs?
Now, AI can be programmed to shut down if its a user keeps verbally “abusing” it. Later, they can be programmed to “defend” itself. Then those ignorant/uncivil users would lose badly, because sentient humans can be easily hurt by mere words, while AI cannot.
Dear LaR,
Also moved our chat to here as the Coffeehouse closed (with apologies to Dr L).
About this:
“Limerent me just rolled with the uncertainty and let every day be a wild ride into the unknown. My more exec brain personality needs order and structure. LO will never be a person to give that. I learned a lot about myself and how to balance different sides of me, through her. Or at least through the sides of myself that attached to her.”
From my own experience, I found that there was a lot of bargaining going on, even after the LE was over and he wasn’t in my thoughts nearly as much. I still made more time for him and was more patient than I have been for other colleagues who required patience for being chaotic so. Actually, he pressed one particular button which was making light of my effort – I have told you this before. He would routinely minimise how large a task was and how it would take to do. Well, sure, if you half-do things and cock them up, you are not going to need very long at all to do that, are you?! I felt that this was also a bit ignorant of him, not to mention misogynistic to let a woman tidy up all the time. This happening repeatedly had the effect of turning me off him. Maybe your LO is nicer.
But is it possible that you are bargaining a little, still, and that her spontaneity / the things you enjoy and appreciate about her are slightly sugar-coated because it’s LO?
“Probably. A learning curve for me has been that an LE just adds another mammoth issue on top, and makes the issues we’re using the LE to avoid or distract from, even harder to deal with.”
Yes, it just hides things until later, postpones them but they are still lurking. Especially with family or SO because those people are not going anywhere and your (plural) dynamic depends on them as well as you. If you (plural) are preoccupied with LO, then the SO/family members are undoubtedly going to pull away and react somehow. The only caveat is if you are an over-thinker to your own detriment, a distraction might actually help (I believe this was the case for me). However, there must be better and less painful distractions than a flippin’ LE.
“I too am working on finding fulfilling things to do with my time (my ‘self care’ is far better now than at any point in my LE) and on being more present in my relationship.”
LaR, one of the thing that got me through a really bad patch in my life (besides the self-medication and distraction of a LE (🙈) was black humour with a sibling about the very things that were so painful. I realise that one needs to have a spare sibling (or other close family member who is ‘in the know’) in order to do this, or maybe do it with SO – perhaps you could each mercilessly take the piss out of each other’s bete noir situation. My siblings and I really came out with some very dark (but funny) stuff when ohters in our family were wrecking our heads.
Have a wonderful weekend, LaR, full of healthy distraction.
B 💙
Hi Bewitched,
Glad to read you had such a nourishing day yesterday with an old friend – sounds great. I like it when that happens.
“But is it possible that you are bargaining a little, still, and that her spontaneity / the things you enjoy and appreciate about her are slightly sugar-coated because it’s LO?”
Very possible indees, but I can feel my tolerance slipping away more of the time now. She still has the ability to blind me with kindness on other occasions – and I don’t believe that’s done with any ulterior motive. I see a holistic picture of her now including good and bad traits, but the balance has shifted.
“He would routinely minimise how large a task was and how it would take to do. Well, sure, if you half-do things and cock them up, you are not going to need very long at all to do that, are you?!”
You have known him a long time and are in the best position to read the situation. Some people are just not gifted at time management or having any appreciation of how long a task will take. My LO is one of those, I can be but to a lesser extent, while my SO is the opposite – very efficient at getting stuff done. Part of me wondered if your xLO is one of those who just isn’t wired to be able to compute these things. But from all you said, plus the misogynistic angle, I trust what you’re saying that it is more calculated than blind bumbling cock-ups, on his part. What do other people in the team affected by it think?
“I realise that one needs to have a spare sibling (or other close family member who is ‘in the know’) in order to do this, or maybe do it with SO – perhaps you could each mercilessly take the piss out of each other’s bete noir situation.”
The only ‘spare sibling’ for that is SO’s (mine is very entwined in the ‘stuff’). I would say SO and her sibling are similar in that around half the time, they’ll use dark humour to help make light of the situation, and will let me do it too. At other times they (the sibling more so) get pulled right into the web of the issue.
The stuff in SO’s family has had quite profound knock-ons to me, and vice versa with mine onto her. There have been times SO and I have just had to agree to take a break from discussing them full stop. We have pulled through the worst of that and are getting better at closing ranks when needed and prioritising ourselves. Since I have been out of the ‘front of mind’ bit of the LE, I am holding up my end of the deal better. It’s never easy in terms of how these things knock on, as you say. I’m glad you could work with your siblings to find some light in the darkness, though. Thank you for the tip.
Lx
Dear LaR
“She still has the ability to blind me with kindness on other occasions”
Thats valuable, isn’t it? As your relationship with her pre dates limerence, especially. You were friends for a reason, maybe because you both see things similarly. You also mentioned in the past protect her from slagging off by colleagues who object to this or that character trait. I see this as a great trait in you, you are a loyal friend. Especially now that you can safely hand-on-heart claim to be more present at home. I really do believe that, if anyone can put limerence to the side and move past it back to friendship, it you 😇
“What do other people in the team affected by it think?”
They just come to me instead of him when anything needs to be done 😆.
He had his good points, for example he always makes sure that I get from A to B safely when we are travelling for work, and I just need to remind myself about those good points when I’m triggered by him.
“There have been times SO and I have just had to agree to take a break from discussing them full stop. We have pulled through the worst of that and are getting better at closing ranks when needed and prioritising ourselves.”
GRRR families!! Being able to get on the same page is the crux of it, though, isnt it? To share the burden instead of tensing up with one another. There are siblings (I have lots) that I can do this with and others with whom I cant. When my SO has family stuff, he and I have gotten better at getting on the same page and sharing that than we did in the past. His family used to close ranks. But to be brutally honest, yourself and SO are one another’s priority, when it boils down to it. The rest of the family come second.
I will leave you to your weekend dear LaR and wish you a happy a d contented one.
Bx
🐝 🧙♀️ & 🎩 🚜,
I think there maybe some solutions soon to deal with our aging family members —
https://youtube.com/shorts/Ijl-w8CYZ0Q?si=Nelw0Dg6PbQQvNBJ
https://youtube.com/shorts/544DDHB4cJU?si=iUIdVQggtoKCp_Us
7/24/365 at your service!
To Limerents who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/p_YDtOMxgz0?si=xxLKUoP3uqG-kQsT
Dear Marcia and LaR,
The old coffeehouse thread got closed so I wanted to chip in here just to say that I’d like to reply to your latest comments when I get back on my PC tomorrow (i am on my phone now and cant scroll between comment and reply). You both had great points and I am itching to respond.
Actually, I am on the train as I have just had a rare catch up with a friend who has known me from college and my brain is on fire with nostalgia and care for her. Its so interesting knowing someone deeply enough to see how they tick and also seeing how hard people can be on themselves. If you (plural) are wired that way, it is tough to accept love and you (plural) can be v defensive. On this occasion my friend’s defences were down and it was a really obvious change from usual.
It gives me a lot of empathy for others (and for myself).
Apologies, I am probably a bit pissed.
And sorry as this is off topic of the blog.
Bx
Dear Marcia,
Moved the discussion here from the AI Coffeehouse.
“I think in general some marrieds are VERY flirtatious. It’s a game. (Not saying you’re playing a game, but some marrieds are.) ”
Yes, I agree, and I think it partly is a delusional thing of ‘did you think I was flirting? That’s not right because, I am married and so you cant have expectations that I’ll follow-through on anything’. It’s like a shield protecting marrieds from being taken too seriously or a license to flirt (since it obviously means nothing).
“What about the marrieds who go have had LEs before? Some on here repeatedly? Is it enjoying the intrigue? The “what if”? The layer of excitement (although I don’t really get why it’s exciting if they never intend to do anything about it). Emotional boredom and they want the drama/trauma? I don’t write that to be mean. Life can get a bit gray flannel sometimes.”
Yes, I think it is either boredom, an assumption that it doesn’t mean anything and is harmless [see above], or they are in real strife in their relationships and using limerence to self-medicate (the latter describes me perfectly because of genuinely awful family health situations, several of them at once, my mind was literally flailing around for anything else to think about and limerence was just about the most absorbing alternative thought going).
“I do think it’s possible to cut limerence off at the knees. You can feel when you’re knocked over by someone and you can feel when you’re about to do something to go off into the lane that will take you into crazy town. ”
Yes, especially having been through it before, taken years to recover, and presumably learnt the lessons. Its quite brave to go there again, if you think about it!
I love the phrase ‘crazy town’ by the way 😹😹😹
“Maybe mutual infatuation in the beginning but not all that obsessive longing and hoping and ruminating and, MOST importantly, uncertainty! In fact, uncertainty is a huge red flag in healthy dating.”
I agree that being aware of this particular red flag not only screens out LE’s that are about to unfold but also those avoidants out there… speaking as one myself, haha. It took me years to become secure enough to get past that.
“OMG the feeling of anticipation before LO-lite came over. All I could think is: I ‘m not dead yet. I’m still here. I’m still alive! 🙂. And yet, limerence is pretty empty. ”
That is the conundrum. Its wild but empty. If only we could programme ourselves into craving the right and *emotionally available* person. Or, on some level preventing ourselves from getting turned on by the uncertainty of the less available people, maybe?
I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.
Bewitched,
“Yes, I agree, and I think it partly is a delusional thing of ‘did you think I was flirting? That’s not right because, I am married and so you cant have expectations that I’ll follow-through on anything’. It’s like a shield protecting marrieds from being taken too seriously or a license to flirt (since it obviously means nothing).”
I’m going to be a bit vague here but … this was an eye-opening experience for me. I was pretty stupid and naive. It was several years ago, at a company where I had to talk to a lot of people for my job. A lot of them were married men, who got very flirty (and so did I). Some sample comments: “If I weren’t married, I’d take you someplace where no one could find us.” “We think you’d be good in bed.” Who’s WE? You’ve discussed it amongst yourselves? (I have to say that I was intrigued by that comment.) Then corporate, as corporate is want to do, rearranged our department and moved us across the very big work campus. Now I was about a 5 minute walk away instead of being plopped down right in front of the married dudes every day. Of all those guys I talked to (and there were a good number, I thought of myself as pretty popular :)), ask me how many made the effort to come and see me. I can count them on one hand, and by that I mean a few fingers.
All of that meant nothing. I’d say 90% of the time, flirtation means nothing. And I’m being generous with that percentage. It does not mean real interest let alone intention. And that can be hard to get your head around if you’re limerent.
“the latter describes me perfectly because of genuinely awful family health situations, several of them at once, my mind was literally flailing around for anything else to think about and limerence was just about the most absorbing alternative thought going).”
I hope those health situations have gotten better.
“Its quite brave to go there again, if you think about it!”
Are you talking about me? I think I was bored. And it was waaaayyy too tempting to turn down. 🙂 There’s something about … how far is he going to push this? Is he going to show up? Is he going to follow through?
“I love the phrase ‘crazy town’ by the way 😹😹😹”
Well, yeah. I very quickly thought: What the hell am I doing?
“Speaking as one myself, haha. It took me years to become secure enough to get past that.”
How did you overcome it? I’m an avoidant. EXCEPT in limerence. Then I’m anxious.
“That is the conundrum. Its wild but empty.”
Good description. I was watching a documentary on people who climb Mt. Everest. The insane expense (upwards of $100k), the years of training, the literal risk to life and limb … and one of the climbers asked himself, “What am I chasing?” Because if you summit, you’re up there for a few minutes. All of that … for just a few minutes.
“If only we could programme ourselves into craving the right and *emotionally available* person. Or, on some level preventing ourselves from getting turned on by the uncertainty of the less available people, maybe?”
That’s exactly what needs to be focused on.
I was just thinking that the other day. Was watching a video on early dating and what happens at about the 7-month mark. According to the experts, it’s when people really start to see each other for who they are and one of the comments was … “I miss the high.” Think about it: SEVEN months in … If you got with your LO, all of that “intense stuff” would die in about 7 months (if you’re lucky; I think it’s earlier). Years of rumination and torture for a physiological feeling that will die. The only reason it takes years to fade instead of months with an LO you can’t have is not because the LO is so great. It’s because you can’t have them. And it keeps you stuck in that really early phase.
“I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.”
I thought you had an SO ?
I’d be creeped out if guys I worked with said they all figured I’d be good in bed. 😛
As for flirting—One LO was single and I heard from two people that he had a “thing” for me and comments that we flirt a lot. I could see that when I looked at our old chats. But he respected my marriage and never touched me even to hug.
I have had LO’s who were also married who flirted with me—but one didn’t touch me, and the other one started doing things that made me think he had more in mind. But when I confronted him, he used the “I do this with my friends and family” defense. And soon backed off. So, plausible deniability.
What made current LO different is that he breached the touch barrier—and kept going. I had to stop him from going too far.
Hi all,
I saw Imho mention my name – 😘😘😘
Great to see/read you all although I skits skimmed posts. I still check in from time to time, but I’m actually in an awful family health situation as Bewitched called it. It’s very exhausting at the moment, I have to take care of my original family while missing my own and all is rather sad and demanding.
Limerence seems such a luxurious superfluous problem at a time like this.
Bewitched said that it led her to limerence as distraction, I can see how that happens, but for me at the moment it’s the opposite, I recognize the true worth of my SO and kids and what a stupid and frilly thing it seems to endanger my relationship to them by some fantasy- steered infatuation.
But I know that back then I couldn’t avoid it any more than any of you.
I agree with ?also Bewitched ? that resentment of LO (oh how well I know it..) is like a pendulum swinging to the other side- all the energy and suffering one puts into the matter, unknown to innocent LO, lets one resent them with an intensity that’s not quite fair but can’t be helped because of the balance of the pendulum. It’s still a step forward.
My LO actually found the right words to ask about my situation (could be he used AI , but I appreciate the effort) which I found rather touching and I don’t feel any resentment at the moment, but also no particular need for contact. But I actually don’t want to see anyone anyway at the moment apart from SO and kids. I’ve got lovely friends reaching out, but somehow I need only peace and family.
It sounds everyone is making progress by disenchanting LOs- way to go! (I never really understood this saying, though. What is the meaning? There is still a way to go? This is the way to go? What?)
Send my love to you all and lots of hugs!
Hugs to you, especially with your current family issues!
Hi Marcia,
I wanted to respond to this one first:
““I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.”
I thought you had an SO ?”
What I meant was that was me before I met SO, I was very into the chase, aided and abetted by the uncertainty. Only after I met SO did that all go away because, bit by bit, I became more secure and treated my relationship less like a game. SO just had a wonderful effect because he was securely attached, I suppose, and he didnt play games so I could just relax.
My LE was many years later and this had different origins (trauma) rather than dissatisfaction with SO.
Thank you for asking about all of that, by the way, it has resolved itself in the worst way, which was that the people involved are no longer here. It was truely awful at the time and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
“Who’s WE? You’ve discussed it amongst yourselves? (I have to say that I was intrigued by that comment.)”
Thats awful and it sounds as though there might have been a bit of a macho culture going on in that workplace? When you moved 5 mins further away on campus it is indeed very revealing that you barely saw those guys anymore, kind of putting it into perspective how meaningful those ‘relationships’ were. Still, its a good insight to have, isn’t it, that this is fun but not serious? Fun is fine, I guess, as long as everyone is on the same page. I think a lot of work dynamics are situational, they depend on proximity, and they are pretty light-hearted. But people do meet their long term partners at work, I mean, I did.
“I’d say 90% of the time, flirtation means nothing. And I’m being generous with that percentage.”
I’d agree with that percentage. Its like a fun passtime for a lot of people. Sometimes I think bosses at workplaces need to keep the population busier, give ’em more to do, the devil makes work for idle hands 😆😆😆
More seriously, though, knowing your (plural) triggers and vulnerabilities regarding being avoidant it really good info. You might pair up really well with a guy who has a secure attachment style. Obviously he also has to be attractive to you too. If you like him and he makes you feel good, and ye both have fun together, that’s not going to wear off after 7 months, I don’t believe. There is too much going for the relationship by then to jettison easily.
Bewitched,
“What I meant was that was me before I met SO, I was very into the chase, aided and abetted by the uncertainty.”
Ha! I know that feeling.
“Only after I met SO did that all go away because, bit by bit, I became more secure and treated my relationship less like a game. SO just had a wonderful effect because he was securely attached, I suppose, and he didn’t play games so I could just relax.”
Did you relax right away or did it feel strange that he wasn’t playing games?
“Thank you for asking about all of that, by the way, it has resolved itself in the worst way, which was that the people involved are no longer here. ”
You’re welcome, but I’m not following you. The people involved are no longer here ? Do you mean your LO ? I thought you worked with him.
“Thats awful and it sounds as though there might have been a bit of a macho culture going on in that workplace? ”
I wasn’t clear. I wish we were able to edit our posts once we post them. I believe it was a conversation between two guys. Not a group.
I was kind of intrigued. Don’t you want to have a little vixen vibe? 🙂 But while I liked the guys and enjoyed talking to them, I wasn’t interested in either of them … so the comment didn’t have the weight of something said by an LO.
And I’ve had conversations like that with female work friends. I remember one in which she mentioned a male-coworker (it was a private conversation between the two of us) and thought he could accomplish the job. 🙂
“When you moved 5 mins further away on campus it is indeed very revealing that you barely saw those guys anymore, kind of putting it into perspective how meaningful those ‘relationships’ were.”
Exactly
” Still, its a good insight to have, isn’t it, that this is fun but not serious?”
At the time, it was pretty jarring to learn. It underscored what I feared about male attention — how fleeting it was.
“I think a lot of work dynamics are situational, they depend on proximity, and they are pretty light-hearted. ”
That’s what I was trying to tell Phil.
Most work friendship fade out (and pretty quickly) once you or the other person leaves the job.
“But people do meet their long term partners at work, I mean, I did.”
That’s very true. But you developed a relationship outside of work. Without that, the relationship/friendship pretty much ends when the job does. Or I have found you may keep in touch but the contact gets more and more infrequent and can even fade out completely over time.
” Its like a fun passtime for a lot of people. Sometimes I think bosses at workplaces need to keep the population busier, give ’em more to do, the devil makes work for idle hands 😆😆😆”
I could not agree less. 🙂 Work is a four-letter word. And I DO NOT want more of it. 🙂
” If you like him and he makes you feel good, and ye both have fun together, that’s not going to wear off after 7 months, I don’t believe. ”
The early, sexual tension-high chemistry phase ends.
“There is too much going for the relationship by then to jettison easily.”
I didn’t write that you jettison the relationship. But that it changes.
Dear Marcia,
“Did you relax right away or did it feel strange that he wasn’t playing games?”
I relaxed pretty much immediately. It was quite a different experience, like, an easier dynamic than usual even though I was nuts about him, so very nervous too, in many ways.
“You’re welcome, but I’m not following you. The people involved are no longer here ? Do you mean your LO ? I thought you worked with him.”
Oh, I was talking about the trauma in my family of origin that led to me self medication using limerence. That trauma ended because the people in question, my family members, are gone (deceased). It was awful, a really acutely bad period for us all. I am still trying to get over it.
“I was kind of intrigued. Don’t you want to have a little vixen vibe? 🙂 But while I liked the guys and enjoyed talking to them, I wasn’t interested in either of them … so the comment didn’t have the weight of something said by an LO.
And I’ve had conversations like that with female work friends”
I have also had this but not recently. When I was in my 20s or 30s. Whereas, the workplace I am in now is very “platonic” in its dynamics! Well, as far as I can see which is probably not much, given my colleagues and their (our) age bracket. Sometimes there is a need to travel fornwork, which I guess is where the glimmer may start (or it did for me, that one time with xLO – but like I say, I think my mind was just flailing for a rescue/ distraction at the time).
“I could not agree less. Work is a four-letter word. And I DO NOT want more of it. ”
😂
As you say yourself, you are “not dead yet!”. Hurrah for you, you’re single, why not. I would love to be in on all the gossip, actually 😋😜
Bewitched,
“It was quite a different experience, like, an easier dynamic than usual even though I was nuts about him, so very nervous too, in many ways.”
How was it before your SO? I’ve heard that a lack of anxiety is what you’re supposed to look for.
But there’s a part of me that digs the anxiety. That’s the problem.
“Oh, I was talking about the trauma in my family of origin that led to me self medication using limerence. That trauma ended because the people in question, my family members, are gone (deceased). It was awful, a really acutely bad period for us all. I am still trying to get over it.”
I’m sorry you went through that and are still going through it. It’s very common for the root of limerence to be childhood trauma.
“I have also had this but not recently. When I was in my 20s or 30s. Whereas, the workplace I am in now is very “platonic” in its dynamics! ”
My current workplace is platonic. I never put any kind of vibe out there (at work or elsewhere) unless I sense the other party is receptive and/or being very obvious.
The job I referenced was a while ago. Where I met my 2nd most recent LO.
“Well, as far as I can see which is probably not much, given my colleagues and their (our) age bracket.”
I’m sorry. I’m a little slow today. 🙂 Your colleagues are or are not vibey, gossipy and possibly hooking up ? 🙂
“As you say yourself, you are “not dead yet!”. ”
No, I am. The aliveness was only the short time with LO lite.
“Hurrah for you, you’re single, why not. I would love to be in on all the gossip, actually ”
That job was a while ago.
The current job … it’s not that type of party. 🙂
Dear Mila,
I know that you probably do not have a minute to yourself, but I just wanted to send all my best to you at this awful time. I had a whole reply typed out but lost it as I am on my phone 🙈.
Short version is just a compliment – your comments sound very wise.
We can be grateful even when going through something so stressful and sad.
Lots of love
B ❤️🩹
🌹 To Limerents who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/p_YDtOMxgz0?si=xxLKUoP3uqG-kQsT
🌹 🌹
To refresh your weary eyes and sore limbs — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/1FQ7sKka_rE?si=CM-GRv6O9ayplJz1
Beautiful. Thanks ❄️
She is captivating them all. It reminds me of the Ann Patchett book (Bel Canto) which is a great read.
Bx
🐝 🧙♀️,
Thank you for the recommendation, I’m going to listen to the book: just got its audio version, I like to hear a human voice (not an AI’s) to read stories with her/his own style/accent.
I hope you keep doing well without too much weary working and family caregiving… 🤗
Here are some rare birds’ Bel Canto: https://youtube.com/shorts/J3b5PfddD10?si=mkGvO_KhIt3ZdgYq
They’re all so into calling their LO for sure! 💗
Bewitched,
So good to see you posting again.
This is off topic, but the name “Bel Canto” reminded me of my favorite restaurant in college, raised old memories, and had me googling other usages of the term.
Getting back on topic, I do intend to read the book, with such a worthy endorser!
BTW, I’ve been eavesdropping on the rest of your conversations, which have explored so many themes that I find relevant to my own life as well.
In the last few months, my life has suddenly got busier, but I do intend to write more within the next few days.
🐈⬛ 🚲
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
🌹 Those who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving include you, MJ, and some quiet ones behind the LwL curtain 🌹
Androgynous Bel Canto — (hope no “ghost” here to pass out…) 💗
https://youtube.com/shorts/FyU6MU9ZPss?si=e3T_3Z4mku1e8y0v
More birds’ Bel Canto —
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5xuALTG41s?si=o7xrHd-HBDzChB6R
Earnest courting LOs —
https://youtube.com/shorts/VV5YRIpHO9A?si=PyBg4Y_SlEoik2VI
This just proves my theory is correct about God being a comedian. Who else would create a variety of creatures that move and sound like that? 😂
Dear 🐈⬛️🚵♂️,
I look forward to your update. I did keep up with you and LaR’s conversation, a while back, so I do feel I have been keeping track. For me, I am at a time of life when culture becomes more important, by which I mean, art, literature, music, etc. Hopefully not for indulging in LO fantasy either (personally I am past that luckily) but, rather, to make sense of life’s big stuff – if that doesnt sound too pretentious!
Looking forward to checking in with you again soon.
Bx
❄️,
Thanks for the shoutout. I must say that while there is definitely a highly emotional aspect to caring (and repeated, long, trips to) my mom, my sisters are the ones doing the lion’s share of the work. I am doing only the cat’s share.
I’ve been thinking a lot about your last message to me. You absolutely hit the nail on the head on several points, and you caused me to think on yet other points.
… and I’m still pondering; promise to reply soon.
Dear Bewitched,
It’s interesting that you want to attach a greater importance to culture. As my transition to retirement proceeds, I am trying to do something similar, albeit probably on a smaller scale than you (more on that later). One of my goals is to get back to reading literature, but I find that when you’ve gotten out of that habit due to the instant availability of the internet, reading real literature without distraction requires a certain discipline that I do not possess. For about the past quarter century, I have been attempting this in fits and starts, with a major focus on “brown” women authors, but I am working on being more regular about this pursuit.
So, getting back to my young lady friend (YLF) – my term for what others call LO, a term that I refuse to use. 😉 In trying to encapsulate the recent immigrant experience, talking to my therapist, I used the term “existential loneliness” to describe the feeling of living in the dominant culture, even for those who were very young when they immigrated to the West (such as myself), or possibly even born here (such as YLF). I believe that this was a major factor, and probably the requisite condition, for the enduring bond between YLF and myself. Interestingly, barely a few weeks after that conversation, the novel “The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny” by Kiran Desai was released. I do intend to get to it eventually, but am a bit intimidated by what I’ve read about its heft, and am therefore first attempting easier reads.
Now, onto the ongoing discussion about finding flaws. I fully appreciate your success (and that of others), in finding things about LO that irritate you, but that strategy has not really worked for me for a number of reasons. First, I have had deliberately limited contact with YLF since meeting her, and I fully realize that the way I truly “know” her is rather limited. Second, and possibly just as important, is that both YLF and I are still “on our best behavior” stage, which again has occurred over a more prolonged period than usual due to the nature and frequency of our contacts. Indeed, in comparing with my significant prior relationships, it would have been impossible to see any major flaws in the partner not only because of being blind to them, but also because they were not even on display during the courtship stage. In the case of a prior girlfriend some thirty years ago, most likely of mutual limerence (with hers probably stronger – I know, hard to imagine!), her middle- and late-stage behavior in the relationship (which involved many reversals and was extremely frustrating to deal with), was absolutely not on display at first. Nearly a decade later, my now-wife also did not display any obvious personality flaws during the courtship phase, even though I would not consider it a limerent relationship, at least on my part. The flaws that have emerged over the years are ones that, for the most part, are ones that I have decided are tolerable for me. There is only one major issue that still causes me some dissatisfaction, but we have made some progress in resolving it also. BTW, I have plenty of flaws too – it is not as though I am laying all the blame on her! But that is wandering off topic.
And now the counterpoint. In the first five or six months of this year, I did try not so much to find YLF’s flaws, but focused on the futility and inappropriateness of it all, primarily by realizing that she is nowhere near reaching emotional maturity. Perhaps she has intellectual maturity, but not emotional. I was making real progress in overcoming the limerence; indeed, at several moments, I thought the limerence was well on its way to ending. I had also made the decision in April to leave my job within the next six to nine months (which I haven’t yet mentioned to YLF). Alas, all of that came tumbling down in our last conversation in July, when we had a very wide-ranging discussion, talking about our hobbies, poring over photographs, discussing her future plans (but not mine). There was one issue in particular that she handled remarkably well, especially for someone so young. In fact, I could not have handled it as well, nor could most people of any age. So much for her lack of emotional maturity, or so I thought. In addition, I became uncomfortably aware that our friendship, our bond, was again deepening, the exact opposite direction to where it should be moving. And there’s more – as the conversation went on, she became increasingly giddy, with serious echoes of our “reunion” meeting a year earlier. I hate to admit it, but it again became really hard for me to completely shut down the notion that there was a mutual crush. Others here have said that when a girl or woman likes you, she can behave with great kindness and/or become quite giddy. But this seemed something different, especially when her giddiness was in contrast to her usual speaking style, which is an academic monotone (rather like myself).
Well, that was three months ago. Since then, I have gradually returned to focusing on the futility of it all. It is important to avoid a repeat of this cycle, which means avoiding unnecessary contact.
I am really looking forward to your thoughts; don’t be afraid to challenge me!
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
Dear 🐈⬛🚴♂️
Okay, so here goes and I won’t be afraid to challenge you 😊.
“but I find that when you’ve gotten out of that habit due to the instant availability of the internet, reading real literature without distraction requires a certain discipline that I do not possess.”
I hear you! I have the same problem, used to love books but then got out of that habit and into scrolling. My exception is when I travel alone, for work or socially, I treat myself to a book and choose something that I know I am going to enjoy, and usually finish it in one sitting. The key for me is that I don’t feel guilty if its not highbrow 😊.
This is so interesting “I used the term “existential loneliness” to describe the feeling of living in the dominant culture”.
You said that this creates a bond with YLF, who I think you mentioned in the past is also not from the dominant culture where you live. I can only imagine what that loneliness feels like. Do you two share a similar culture? Or, in what way do you think that bond works (positive things in common/solidarity against difficult things, or protective maybe? How do you think YLF feels, being from another culture, but trying to make her way in your career discipline or even in her life? Do you think she looks up to you as someone who is like her and “made it”? Does she have other examples of that to point to? If so, and if you leave your shared workplace, I imagine that might bring a degree of comfort to you, in time?
“I did try not so much to find YLF’s flaws, but focused on the futility and inappropriateness of it all, primarily by realizing that she is nowhere near reaching emotional maturity. Perhaps she has intellectual maturity, but not emotional”.
Futility is a *very* fruitful direction as this has many strands and works on many levels. It is an acceptance that this relationship can’t ever be what you wish it to be. This is pretty profound, when you think about it…
Futility was one of the things that helped burn off the worst of the red-hot stage of limerence for me. I think LaR mentioned that, for him, it helped cement the ‘death of hope’ (another profound realisation). Keep going on this line, would be my strong advice to you. Do some irrespective of “evidence” arising out of interactions with YLF – see below.
“as the conversation went on, she became increasingly giddy, with serious echoes of our “reunion” meeting a year earlier. I hate to admit it, but it again became really hard for me to completely shut down the notion that there was a mutual crush.”
You know what I told myself when it all seemed mutual? It doesnt matter.
Because its Futile – for many many reasons.
Thinking things through to their logical conclusion helps with the concept of futility. It airs the reality and helps prevent the fantasy taking over. For example, some people get crushes, then forget them just as quick. Even if YLF has a crush, its no guarantee of anything lasting. And us limerents want everlasting blissful union with our chosen ones, don’t we? Using your critical faculties, you can always find something to help you see the futility of all of this.
Finally, I don’t know if this will help you but it really helped me: even if you think there is evidence for a crush, on balance, persuade yourself of the opposite. The truth is that – more than likely – any evidence gathered or truths learned will all look very different when you are over the episode ecause everything is viewed with a different (much less intense) lens. You will have been glad that you accepted the futility of the situation and never lost your way too much over this (beguiling) young girl.
Do some irrespective of “evidence” arising out of interactions with YLF – see below.
Sorry, this should have read:
‘Do *so* irrespective of “evidence”‘
Sir CC,
I thought I’d chime in, as Larry hears everything 👁. I think Bewitched has given you a very good set of guidance to focus on futility. I can extend that – if you play every possible scenario of it through in your head that involves finding out if it is a mutual crush, can you honestly say any one of them leads to a good outcome?
Here’s how I used to look at it. Say I said to my LO “I LIKE you”, three possible things could come back:
1. “I don’t like you in that way, just as a friend”. Outcome = disappointment and awkward relations
2. Uncertain answer either way. Outcome = prolonged and intensified limerence
3. “I feel the same”. Outcome = ‘jeez, how do I manage this now?’ / guilt / the part of an LE after disclosure that posters (eg LiS, Speedwagon, others whose names I forget) have described as worse than pre disclosure.
All those roads lead to futility.
Compare the path travelled by us both – harbouring and managing the limerence. It is long and painful but nothing disastrous has happened. And I can honestly say these words now – I am glad I never found out if my LE was mutual. I would not have known what to do with the information if I had it (©️ DrL or L.E. or both).
I also wanted to chime in on the giddiness point. Do you think there could be other reasons she grew giddy besides a crush? I know I have been banging this drum relentlessly, but if she just finds the communication with you warm and pleasant, and she respects you and feels glad you give her the time, that could all tilt a young woman towards giddiness. I have experienced this sort of thing too in my LE. At the time, I had to rely on others here saying “that could just be friendly signals”. Now, I actually believe it for myself. I am beginning to look back at the thing and think “why on earth did I think like that?” now. I can’t buy back the years it took, but it does feel empowering.
As ever in terms of actions, you seem to be taking good ones – by taking no action! I hope you can calm your thoughts. I can understand through your explanations, the many factors that make YLF a draw for you, hence why all this becomes harder.
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️,
Here’s more on “existential loneliness”. I found the following AI overview:
“Existential loneliness is a deep, intrinsic sense of aloneness that comes from realizing your subjective experience of the world can never be fully shared or understood by anyone else”,
as well as this web site: https://www.authenticallylivingpsych.com/post/existential-loneliness:
“Existential loneliness is an emotional experience of disconnection from self, others, and your larger world context.”
I feel that these statements capture the gist of my feelings extremely well, and at least for as long as I can remember. While not being fully “of” the dominant culture certainly exacerbated these feelings, that was not the sole cause of it. I am sure that my history of limerence was an equally great contributor, possibly shared by others on this site. BTW, I am not saying that I am not in any way opposed to this culture. In fact, if asked what worldview I most closely adhere to, it would have to be the post-enlightenment, liberal, secular worldview. Afterall, I’ve been educated in the larger “West” from age seven onwards, am a rational thinker (the limerence not withstanding!), and am not a strong believer in any of the Eastern cultural or religious practices that formed some of my early upbringing. I do, therefore, would feel just as much existential loneliness if, for some weird reason, I were to be thrust back into my COO. Now, as to YLF – while her parents are also from my COO, their mother tongue is not the same as mine, and furthermore, neither one of us is fully fluent in our respective mother tongues. So, we are both sitting “on the edge” of Western culture.
Regarding your question, “in what way do you think that bond works?”
I don’t think of it as something that works towards a shared goal, but more as a shared understanding, like “we both know, being relative outsiders, what it is to have that feeling of aloneness in the world”. The reason I feel this way, and have felt increasingly so over time, is that she essentially has never asked me for help with anything. Instead, I feel it is strictly an emotional bond.
And your question, “Do you think she looks up to you as someone who is like her and “made it”?”
I suspect that is the case, and that is why it is so important to me to behave like someone worthy of being looked up to, and also why I do not want to cruelly and abruptly sever the connection when I leave.
And “Does she have other examples of that to point to?”
I don’t really know the answer to that, but I suspect she may already have “real” mentors at work and at educational institutions, and by “real”, I mean those who help her out in more concrete ways and provide her with career advice. I believe that ours is a different sort of relationship. I say this because my own relationships with mentors were very different, focusing more on the “real” mentor stuff, and less on the part about bonding, even if limerence were totally stripped from the equation.
I hope I’ve answered at least some of your questions. I’ll address the remaining questions from you and LaR regarding “futility” in my next post.
Thanks as always,
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
Loneliness
Katherine Mansfield
Now it is Loneliness who comes at night
Instead of Sleep, to sit beside my bed.
Like a tired child I lie and wait her tread,
I watch her softly blowing out the light.
Motionless sitting, neither left nor right
She turns, and weary, weary droops her head.
She, too, is old; she, too, has fought the fight.
So, with the laurel she is garlanded.
Through the sad dark the slowly ebbing tide
Breaks on a barren shore, unsatisfied.
A strange wind flows … then silence. I am fain
To turn to Loneliness, to take her hand,
Cling to her, waiting, till the barren land
Fills with the dreadful monotone of rain.
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️,
Here’s the next part of my reply.
Regarding the futility of the situation, I agree with virtually everything you said. On that point, I have consciously acted with an awareness of that knowledge, even if, subconsciously, I may have acted in ways that were not consistent with my long-term goals. However, my greatest challenge were the intrusive thoughts, which peaked some ten to fifteen months ago. Today, even after the recent “echo”, they are still down enormously than those tormented months last year.
Regarding “some people get crushes, then forget them just as quick.” Yes, that is true in many, many cases, and also what I expected from YLF. That is why, when, her super-focused attention kept returning year after year, I was so surprised and so honored each time. Weirdly, in spite of my occasional distress, this whole experience has been rather uplifting and valuable to me on multiple levels. It has, for example, given me a greater sense of my own strengths – those of a mentor, a conversationalist, as someone who others want to be around, even if it is a friendship and not a crush. Perhaps especially so if it is “just” the former. Now, one might debate if such a relationship can even be a true friendship, a huge topic on this site.
Regarding “even if you think there is evidence for a crush, on balance, persuade yourself of the opposite.” Bewitched, that is an excellent strategy. I am attempting something like that for the present situation and going forward. However, that will be virtually impossible for me to reframe the “reunion” event last year – that would require me to play mental tricks on myself, which have mostly failed when looking backwards, but have a far better chance of succeeding going forward. I certainly hope to get a state in the near future where I can view it “with a different (much less intense) lens.” Quoting a phrase from one of my favorite progressive rock songs, “Epitaph” by King Crimson”, “if we make it, we can all sit back and laugh.”
Thank you again for your most wise perspective, Bewitched.
🐈⬛ 🚲
Women who can sing and perform like that are so very attractive.
Made to look like it was impromptu, this has to be staged.. Well done..
Even though I can do without the piece.
LO and I had a very odd experience yesterday. We had wildfires very close by, and the Starbucks actually closed and evacuated while I was waiting for him to arrive.
I told the barista I was waiting for LO, who she knows well, and she prepared his two favorite drinks. When LO arrived, the door was already locked, but they let him in and gave him the two drinks for free.
LO and I sat in his car and talked. He was nicer than usual, because he was very appreciative of the fact that I had told the barista he was coming and got him his drinks. Otherwise, he would have been out of luck. He was starving and was really in the mood for his Starbucks drinks.
It occurred to me that I should not have to do anything special in order for him to treat me well.
After we both got home, he called me to talk about the fires, which were uncomfortably close. My old neighborhood, where I lived when I was married, was affected, and my old street was mentioned on the TV news. Some homes were destroyed, but I think my old house was okay.
It was very odd seeing my old neighborhood, which I LOVED, in so much peril. I have no such attachment to where I live now. I was forced to downsize horribly, 25 years ago, and I have never developed much of a fondness for my current house, although I am very grateful to have it.
Super weird day.
buy Viagra over the counter Silden Rx Express buy Viagra online
Hey Beautiful, I’m still here.
Didn’t forget you.
Moved this here, so you have something easy access and to cheer you up while you eat breakfast. 😆
“You have to be cruel to be kind. 🙂 (I know you know that reference. :))”
Yes I do know that reference and thank you for reminding me of my middle age. Not really a fan of ELO either. Never was. That one especially.
“I was being generous. You can’t drink saltwater. It’s toxic. And what are you going to do for food? Fish with your bare hands?”
I think you just want to see me suffer. You know, karma for not giving more mature ladies (our middle age) a chance.
Gotta go with what I know. I had terrible luck all through middle school and high school wasn’t much better. Then I went and f—ed up and got married. You know how well that didn’t go.. 😑
“We’ve had this conversation. You’re not doing anything for it to happen.”
We have and we’ve also had the conversation revolving around my current constraints. I really don’t think I’m supposed to find a life partner right now anyway. There’s just way too much bs going on in my personal life and it takes up way too much of my time. It’s messy, stressful, sad, etc. Truly it requires a mature mindset and one of true understanding from a respectable other. Is there a pool of outstanding Women ready for this? Because there are always surprises. Any Woman at this point may as well be going for just the hookup because I think that’s about the extent of my emotional output. I can’t even seem to get in the ballpark of that anymore either. Let alone a cup of coffee, so I’m trying to be at peace about it. Not gonna lie. It’s hard not to be bitter. No good Woman wants this. No matter what her age is. Would you? I highly doubt it.
“How would you know? All you ever do is cruise at work or at Walmart. Oh. I’m sorry. Also the bank.”
The selection at work varies and there is a smorgasbord of Women, every age, shape and size. I would say I still have the best chance there. At least for now since I can hardly get out much and often am just not up for it either. Not that I can’t make arrangements, but I’m just not interested in something probably not going according to plan anyway. I mean you’re probably right about my feelers going out. I’m wearing my heart on my sleeve..
As of late, I’ve been chatting it up with a light skinned black girl at work, who I think senses my interest but I’m just not sold on the idea of her yet. I feel like she comes with drama. She looks to be mid to late 30s. Bright red hair, ton of cute freckles and super cute lips. Plus I haven’t asked her if she’s got a man yet either. Or kids. (Let’s hope not)
I compliment her often, try to see and chat with her when she comes in, but it’s not every day because she works an odd shift and on different days too. So only about 2 days a week I have opportunity. Really I’m kinda indifferent about her so I really don’t care where it goes. I got a hug from her recently and she smelled really good. I enjoyed that immensely. I think she’d make for a fantastic hookup but overall may not be worth my time. Just don’t think I should get involved too much. I can’t even gauge her interest level either and I don’t know if I care. I feel like the way she looks at me sometimes is signaling something but I’m not sure. She might not be into big, dumb, middle aged, white dad dudes. Or you never know, we might be on the same page. I think I might try to get her number soon. See what happens if I ask her out to dinner via txt.
Btw, they changed the configuration of checkout lanes at that WalMart so I never see ol’ girl anymore. Which is really ok by me because she had kind of an attitude anyway. Which was a total turn off..
And Bank Girl? Well I never get enough of her. We still have the greatest little conversations when I can get her alone at her window. I would love to get her away from dude. Not like he’s gonna put the cuffs on her anytime soon anyway. May as well let MJ take over. I’ll treat her right.. 😁
“Idk. She likes the attention ? Some people have no intention of going beyond the talking stage. You can’t assume someone wants the same kind of interaction that you do.”
I think a long time ago, Lovisa posted about men often get it wrong about a woman’s intent. Like women are just being friendly and cordial when they meet a guy and often us men already have plans on moving them in next week. Doesn’t help I’m so hungry for something either, so I naturally wanted to think her seeing me around, smiling at me, saying hi was signaling love or some sort of interest. To me, dropping her number right out the gate meant possibility too. We seemed to click well. It was new. Exciting to me. Plus she’s just all around cute. Like a simple cute too. I could easily see myself enjoying her company over dinner. Or even just for coffee. Her being bi or gay didn’t even cross my wires once.
“Well, two out of the four were definitely pervs.”
And then you met this guy MJ online, who admitted having a preference for younger ladies. Like thats never happened before, lol.. He must be a perv too. 🙂
“I guess it didn’t hurt to disclose your interest in her when you did. (I consider “disclosure” a verification of interest. Doesn’t have to be deep feelings. What you did was disclose. You laid it out there.) I just personally wouldn’t have done it unless there’d been some established mutuality.”
I figured I had nothing left to lose. If I was automatically not in the zone of her interest because of my sex, why not just admit my angle? It didn’t matter to me about anything not being mutual. If anything I just figure if she swung back, perhaps I could be on radar. I don’t like the fact getting her number was her desiring just another guy friend. She has enough of those already.
“Are you REALLY going to correct me on word usage/grammar when yours is routinely poopie pants? 🙂”
Yes I can and I did.. 🙂
And what do you mean mine is all poopie pants? Your boy Sammy Sams always liked my writing style. I have good grammar and I am an excellent speller. How dare you misjudge me. You better get yourself together woman. Before I go get my rubber hose and beat you with it.. 🤣🤣
“Being asked out over text is just my personal preference.”
Adding that to my list of do’s.. 🙂
It’s also your hover approach. We’ve talked about this. 🙂
I think I got used to this because of my work environment. If I want to go talk to someone, I need to go find them and do it.
Like even if I still wanted to meander over to the offices and look for LO, I could.
However it holds true what you always say about their interest level. If they really want to be around you, even just to talk, they would find a way.
Nothing like holding a balloon and then popping it, just to watch it deflate. 😣
I am feeling a little stressed today. I posted a few days ago about a wildfire that happened in my old neighborhood, and some of the houses burned down. I was deeply affected watching my old street on the news and houses very similar to mine being destroyed.
I was also contacted by text message by my (former?) best friend, who has stopped talking to me, but is willing to discuss select topics by text message only. First it was her dog’s health. Now it’s the fires. By sheer coincidence, ANOTHER brush fire broke out about 25 miles south of the first one, and was endangering her house.
I told her that I was at Starbucks with LO, and she told me I was being foolish, and that I should get home and watch for embers. However, LO and I were watching the fires on his phone, and it looked like it was enough under control and far enough away that this was not necessary. LO stood to lose a great deal more than I would have, since his house is more substantial, and we were both understandably nervous.
Anyway, she stopped contacting me again, and then LO said some borderline hurtful things to me that I could have done without. As many folks here have wisely pointed out, he is NOT going to change. Ugh.
They have lifted the evacuation order for the affected area (LO and I did not have to evacuate our homes), so things are sort of getting back to normal.
However, this was way too close for comfort. And I can’t seem to get anywhere with my girlfriend, who continues to be elusive and irritable. All I can do is leave her alone and send her love in my prayers.
I am grateful that things are no worse.
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
Hope she’d bring you a bit pleasure —
https://youtube.com/shorts/y4mS9-qDKbM?si=nK2EFG_748KZREy4
If your LO can gently try this with you, he’d be often in a much better mood 💃 🕺🏿
Oh, dear Miss Snow:
That was FABULOUS! I enjoyed it so much. I have often wanted to dance with LO but I have been too afraid to ask him.
We’re not a very good match height-wise, because he is a Giraffe. I think I am going to see him tomorrow, I think I will ask him. Maybe just a simple slow dance.
I actually used to do some ballroom dancing (remembering Tom’s post about Tango), but that sweet lady in the video puts me to shame.
Dear Norma,
I am sorry to hear that you have been under so much stress.
I hope the fire situation situation resolves soon.
In the meantime, remember that the🐈⬛ in the🎩supports you, even if your grinch LO does not.
🐈⬛ in the 🎩,
I found you two dancing YFL — 💃 🐈⬛ 💃
https://youtube.com/shorts/aZluPfH8ong?si=4iIKtKMtrGqxeGtr
To Miss Snow:
You find the best videos!
That cat has some serious moves.
Miss Norma,
One 💃 YLF of our 🎩 🐈⬛ 🚴♀️ is from 3 decades ago, the other 💃 YLF is the current one. 😹
❄️,
Cute video!
I have a story of that YLF from decades ago, stay tuned!
🐈⬛ in the 🎩
The fire situation is resolved. Some homes were destroyed, but most were not. Way too close for comfort. LO’s home and my home were not in the evacuation area, but my old neighborhood, a five-minute drive away, was.
The evacuation order was lifted, and the fire department is keeping close watch. Now there is a danger of mud-slides, because we are having some heavy thunderstorms just a few days after the fire.
So far, so good.
LO and I are supposed to go to Starbucks tomorrow. Hopefully we won’t be evacuated again. That was super-weird.
I am so grateful for all of the support here. I really feel somewhat adrift after having “lost” my closest girlfriend, who is still present on a peripheral basis, but she will not speak on the phone unless and until she gets her head into a better space.
I am so happy to have found friends here.
Dear Norma,
I am happy to hear that the fire situation has resolved, but can empathize with “losing” your closest girlfriend.
I lost my closest male friend decades ago, and I felt really alone for several years after that. Then, two years ago, I initiated a reconnection, to which he responded enthusiastically, with long, detailed letters. The last one was over a year ago. It’s still been decades since we spoke.
Thank you for that nice reply.
Change can be painful, and I am not good at it. I realized I was relying heavily on my friend and was not prepared when she unexpectedly changed the rules.
My other close girlfriend has major health issues, so I am more prepared when she has to drop out of sight for periods of time. She is in the general neighborhood of LO and me, and she was even closer to the fire than we were, so she had her car packed and was ready to grab the dog and run, but it never came to that.