It’s October. Time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffee house.
My week has been super busy with prep for the Obsessive Thoughts Workshop. It’s launching in 8 hours time.
Last chance to get the discounted price of $49.
Sign up now if you want to learn how to break free of obsessive thought loops without withdrawal pain.
Social media and indirect contact
OK, moving on to something new.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the impact of social media on limerence, as it’s a topic that comes up a lot in discussion.
I’ve written before about how it can be a sort of double addiction. As well as the limerent reward, there’s also the dopamine hit of checking your phone for an update.
If you have an LO who posts a lot on social media, the temptation to check for updates will be driven by both desire for indirect contact with them and desire for a quick social media hit.
What I hadn’t really considered before was the impact of the times when you don’t get the rewards.
When you check and there is no update.
That isn’t neutral, when it comes to reward signalling in the brain. It registers as a reward prediction error.
The original impulse to check is your dopamine neurons firing to motivate you to seek reward, so you check their feed, and… no new message.
Your hope is disappointed.
That silences your dopamine neurons, and as a result you feel bad. A dip in dopamine is aversive.
This phenomenon is partly why uncertainty is so powerful for reinforcing limerence – you are constantly experiencing reward prediction errors, so your dopamine levels are peaking and dipping and never settle down. You can’t learn a correct pattern of behaviour that reliably gives the reward.
Instead, you are trapped in a state of expectancy. Never knowing. Always wondering. Constantly reinforcing the addiction.
A good example of this principle is managing nicotine cravings. If airline cabin crew know that they are on a long-haul flight and aren’t going to be able to smoke for a long time, their cravings subside. There’s no uncertainty. They make peace with the limitation.
But, as their arrival time approaches, the exact moment when they will at last be able to light up and take a deep draught of smoke into their expectant lungs comes closer, but is not yet certain. That sends their cravings into overdrive.
Expectancy is tough for mood regulation.
I suspect this is more important for intensifying limerence symptoms than I previously realised.
So, there’s a topic to kick things off today: has expectant waiting on social media (or email or texting) affected your limerence cravings?
Anyone noticed a pattern?
I am not on social media, so that is one problem I don’t have.
Also, LO is not much of a texter, so that’s not really a problem, either.
My limerence seems to have bottomed out for the time being. Where I do have a problem is that being around LO is thrilling, even though my opinion of him continues to slide downward.
I estimate that I am at about 20% of my original insanity, which I actually find to be bearable. Since I am finding it bearable, actually enjoyable, I can’t seem to come up with a way to motivate myself to reduce it further.
On the one hand, I am pleased to be doing as well as I am doing. On the other hand, I have self-loathing that I could be so attracted to a man who says so many things that I find objectionable.
I saw LO yesterday. He brought up the “unedited” video of the Minneapolis confrontation between ICE agents and civilian Renee Good, who was shot dead in what appears to be an unprovoked attack. I asked him if he had been able to find the video showing that Ms. Good rammed the ICE agent with her car. He snapped at me that it would take him 30 minutes to find it, suggesting that he was never going to do so. Just as well, because I am sure it doesn’t exist.
The fact that he continues to believe that Ms. Good instigated the attack and deserved to be shot is ridiculous and completely unacceptable.
Yet I continue to drool.
Speaking of which, did you see the family just filed lawsuits over this? I watched Becca Good’s portion of the news conference they gave. There were so many awful things said about her online, and about Renee, basically painting them as frauds or convicts or that they brought it on themselves—and they’re just ordinary people. There’s Becca struggling to move on without the love of her life, trying to raise Renee’s youngest child and get him to Kindergarten, while he’s desperately missing his mother. And I go into the comments of the AP article (oh why did I do that) and people are still in there with their character assassinations.
To Serial:
I did notice that. One good thing is that LO would not be online attacking her, I will at least give him credit for that.
But I fail to understand why these people are so vilified.
I’m not on social media and since I became Limerent almost 3 years ago I’m so thankful that I’m one of the few who stays away from it. I believe it’s more than a double edged sword, maybe more like a triple edged sword.
On the first edge I’d be checking it constantly to see if she posted any pics of herself which would only feed the addiction and break the no contact rule.
On the second edge I might see that she had a get together with a group of friends over the weekend and couldn’t even think to invite me giving me a huge sense of FOMO/ (fear of missing out).
On the third edge I would constantly be posting pictures of myself doing cool things like extinguishing a vehicle fire with all of my turnout gear and air pack on as a way to look all heroic or letting everyone know I just got back from a 10 mile run. And I would only be doing it with the purpose of trying to get my LO to notice and maybe comment, not for my own good.
In my humble opinion social media is nothing more than adding gasoline to a fire for us limerents!
10 miles? That’s a half of Marathon 🏃♂️ Very impressive 👍! You’d run your LO out of your system soon…
Keep it Up 💪
To Richie:
Such a great post. Social media is one big exercise in FOMO.
I already suffer from FOMO due to being disabled and semi-housebound. I prefer not to think about all the activities I can’t participate in. I’m not in denial, but I don’t want to shove my own face into it, either.
Now, if I could extinguish a vehicle fire while running ten miles (?), that might be a different story. (Might as well combine your accomplishments for an additional boost.)
I don’t think any long-distance jugglers, runners, walkers would carry with them a whole air pack, except a big bottle of water w/o a smart watch.
Extinguishing a vehicle (most likely someone else’s) 🔥, with whatever one has in hand, is truly heroic!
The most challenge still lies on how to extinguish LE 🔥 in 1 year or 5 decades… 😍
Dear Snow ❄️
Great point about extinguishing my LE 😆!
However according to Dr L and several other sources Limerence on average lasts between 18 months to 3 years. The very end of this month will mark 3 years since my infatuation began so fingers crossed 🤞 that I wake up bright and early on November 1st and my LE is 100% gone! 😆 however I’m not going to hold my breath.
To Richie:
When I hit my three-year anniversary of limerence, I naively thought that my feelings for LO would turn off like an expired parking meter.
Didn’t happen. However, when I look back at how badly I was bouncing off the walls in 2023 and 2024, I feel blessed to be doing relatively well today.
I’m coming up on 3-1/2 years, and I think I am stuck at a plateau, but it’s not unpleasant.
To Miss Snow:
I was trying to make fun of the way that people exaggerate on social media.
Too bad Richie can’t extinguish all of our limerence problems with his cool firefighter gear!
Richie,
Oh, by November 1st your ❤️🔥 will be gone 🪽 with 💨 ?
Okay, I’ll trick-n-treat a ❤️🔥 👻 to leave on 10/31 evening 🎃 , and then check with you the next day…. 🤪
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
I’m not on Social Media (except a suspended work IG), so I did NOT even get your joke. Anything on SM does not interest me.
Let’s see if Richie could extinguished his own ❤️🔥 🔥 by the end of this month, with all his cool gears from his work…
Thank you Norma. And to clarify I’m a firefighter/ EMT in my town so that’s why I used that as an example and just like my LO I’ve been a runner for over 20 years so that’s why I used the 10 mile example.
I am very sorry to hear you are disabled and semi-housebound but I always enjoy reading your posts. Thank you and all the best to you!
To Richie:
You don’t have to clarify. Your post was very clear. I was just making an attempt at a joke.
Also, perhaps a gentle poke at myself–just yesterday, I screamed with ecstasy because I was able to install the Hulu app on my TV correctly.
Richie,
I think the 3-year expiration date really depends on the limerent and the specific circumstances around the LE and, most importantly, what they’re doing to end the LE.
I’ve had LEs last one year. I’ve had some last more than 3.
I’ve never looked up my LO on social media, but the pictures that would really bother me wouldn’t be work photos. It would be pics with his SO. Or pics with him and some woman. I’d wonder if he was hooking up with her.
Thanks for the input Marcia.
The one thing I’ve mentioned before on this site is that I’ve noticed how far I’ve come over the past year.
Like so many limerents I spent the first year not being able to sleep and having to take Z-quil just to get a few hours of sleep. Now I’m finally almost totally back to normal even though the thoughts will always be there.
The one thing this has taught me is to never ever let this happen again!
„ adding gasoline to a fire for us limerents“
So true. Looking at LOs picture doesn‘t make sense and just hurts. Writing a message or staying in contact is gasoline! I wish my inner fire departement would to its work..
For this impossible, harmful LE 🔥, your “inner fire department” indeed needs to be fixed or renovated completely…
You have stayed away from checking this creepy LO’s profile, right? I hope so… 🙂
To ❄️
(no need to reply🥰)
There are many azure-winged magpies, blackbirds, and sparrows that appear in another green area; the previous area doesn’t seem to be their favorite.
And the hard-to-identify bird—I was puzzled by its plumage color. It seemed to be a blackbird with feather loss/fading around its neck 😂. I may have seen it again, together with other blackbirds. The feather I picked up is probably from an azure-winged magpie, though it’s a bit larger than I thought.
In Chinese superstitions, the blackbirds circling is always ominous sign signaling some deaths make place.
Azure-winged magpies are so loved and rare in the north.
Lucky you can see them! Maybe they can help you forget your “infatuating Dalmatian”… 🐩
😀
Edit:
“Some death may take place.”
Thank you! Some birds can be very common depending on the area. Today, an azure-winged magpie I was staring at preened with its back to me (showing off such alluring tail feathers, butt, fluff, and claws—I’m not a cat). If I could be with those lovely wings, I’m sure it would be much harder for LE to happen.
New try, one week now.. He sent me a message on Monday, „Hi“. I didn’t answer and deleted the chat.
Unfortunately I still think of him too much, my feelings for him are too much.. I never forget what he said to me on the phone over two years ago, „if I wouldn’t be married and if I wouldn’t have a child, I would have been with you already „.. 😞
Laloba,
Even if what he said to you two years ago were true, the reality is totally different story; anyone could say those beautiful, empty word, why his words weight so much to? Have you searched enough possible answers?
I believe what you’re expressing here, it’s just that myself can no longer comprehend how one is able to generate so much feelings for someone she has never met in person… 🤔
What a mysterious power! (I was naively “fooled” once by words only, later I wouldn’t trust words alone, even my own, which were often fed just by imaginations alone… )
How come you can’t block his messaging? Or you just can’t do it yet? *sigh*
LO has all sorts of positions in the church, community, AND demanding job, and he often shuts off his personal phone, so he’s never done a lot of texting. Doesn’t do much on social media, either, though he does now and then. BUT just searching for his name in the Facebook would bring up his picture to gaze at….
I already have a tough enough time dealing with LO in real life. Having access to him on social media would probably kill me. Been tempted to search for him on social media but haven’t because I’d probably show up as a friend suggestion on his feed. I’m also not on s.m. as much anymore. I get no dopamine hit from it.
I’d love to find a way to get a good dopamine hit that doesn’t involve things that would be bad for me.
LO and I were talking recently about his involvement in a club sport in my town and that he also goes to a public market in my town after practice. So I’m on s.m. later that day and there’s a post about the market, which never showed up before, and another post about a female team begging for players for that same club sport. Limerent me, seriously considered joining the team but wouldn’t that be weird to start doing the same sport as LO?
Speaking of weird, LO told me exactly what time he’d be at the market in MY town (and he knows I live there), so my limerent brain went into overdrive. The stars aligned perfectly. My S.O. was busy and I had free time to go to the market in hopes of running into him. Luckily, I ran into my neighbors and walked around with them. I couldn’t locate LO but then later saw him leaving. No clue if he saw me. Then I was terrified that if he did see me, he’d think I’m a stalker. But he was in MY town. Lol. My safe space and my market. Don’t worry, I probably won’t have an opportunity to do that again, as S.O. isn’t normally busy at that time and I’d probably end up going to the market with SO.
Fast forward a few days later, I had a pleasant surprise. Got to spend a solid two hours with LO walking close to him in a crowded setting which meant we bumped into each other a few times. He seemed to enjoy me being by his side/following him around like a puppy dog. I even apologized to him for being clingy (I hate being in crowds and losing the people I’m with) and I think he said something cute and touched my shoulder but my brain has blocked that memory out (just imagine the hours of ruminating). Those two hours left such a good feeling and I just want to hang onto that because it was calming and cozy. It’s that exact feeling that I wish I could have forever without any depressive crashes and cravings for LO.
I’m tired of the anticipation of interactions with LO as they always disappoint but I’d welcome pleasant surprises. Maybe there would be enough of those to snuff out my limerence or at least kill the ups and downs of this LE, get me back to a stable mood.
I would think of some creative, artistic hobbies, even starting from scratch: painting, drawing, (thin rice) paper cutting (a Japanese art form), creative writing, blogging, collaging, sculpturing, etc…
The artistic creation has been proven effective to reduce/cure stressed mind, and bring pleasant, stable “creative high” (w/o surprises), just look at Yayoi Kusama, my iSO auntie whose oil-painting got quite good.
I think you can join that female sport team, as long as LO would not be in the club. Physical sweating is really helpful to ease anxious or ruminating mind.
Dealing with another bout of sadness. Yay. The “high” from last week didn’t last very long. Lol! I know that pattern well now, yet can’t break the cycle. 7 months and counting… Blah.
So perhaps try some Stoic tricks: lower down your expectation, lower your “high” to “moderate” (not too low, perhaps 40~50%)?
Moderation of something often last longer, more stable, especially when you yourself generate/create that “something”, not depending on LO’s interests totally (perhaps a little bit as a push/catalyst)? 🙂
A correction here: I meant to low down one’s “Hope” to
40~50%, but 0% Expectation!
Expectation brings one disappointments (all the time), but hopes (with steady efforts for your own benefits) pumps one to get out of the bed in the morning and have a health dose of imaginations before bedtime…
“Tomorrow is another day…”
As soon as my LO began her serious, new relationship, I exited Instagram. I thought it would be too painful to see her happiness laid out in front of me, having built the fantasy alternative reality in my head that she was usually just at home most of the time, mooning over me (I know 😐).
I returned to Insta, tentatively, a few months later – only to discover that she had not only ‘unfriended’ me, but had also removed me from her list of followers. To this day, I have no idea whatsoever why she felt the need to do that and is certainly something I would never raise. But we both have private accounts, so there is no way of seeing what she posts now, even if I wanted to.
This is, without question, an unequivocally GOOD THING and there are two main reasons for that:
1) I can enjoy looking at what my friends and family are up to knowing I won’t, at any stage, be confronted with something that will upset/trigger/unsettle me. It’s freeing!
2) More profoundly, I am now able to enjoy something (Insta) which I previously believed was only about HER. She was the reason I began using it, she was the one ‘like’ I craved on every single one of my posts. I was addicted to her approval.
This is how I felt about a lot of things related to her and when our friendship ended I was utterly frightened by the idea that so many of my actions, behaviours, decisions, impulses had been driven by my addiction to her all along. I told my therapist how scared I was that she was the scaffolding holding up the crumbling edifice of my emotional life. Remove the scaffolding… and what would be left?
In reality, the building is fine, the structure is sound, and removing the scaffolding has revealed how beautiful it has been all along. Social media is a microcosm of that. I enjoy it unashamedly… but even more now, without a malevolent element reinforcing my addiction.
Come away if you can.
To Phil:
What a great summary of the mind games that social media can play.
I am so glad you have found some peace.
I still won’t go on Instagram because I have issues with estranged children and a horrible ex-husband. My ex-husband’s new wife used to post prolifically on Instagram, bragging and exaggerating about everything.
When my youngest daughters were still at home, they showed me a video of her at a country line-dancing event, where she captioned herself “the best of the best.” I burst out laughing. She was a marginally adequate dancer who knew the steps and could keep time to the music.
Which is why I attempted to make a joke above about Richie and his accomplishments, but you really should not try to make jokes on the internet because it’s too confusing.
I’ll go back to the over-70 table now and look at my bone scans.
“In reality, the building is fine, the structure is sound, and removing the scaffolding has revealed how beautiful it has been all along. Social media is a microcosm of that.”
A microcosm of what? “Sound building” of a personal life? A pictographs of a personal life? How many people in SM also honestly show their laundry of various colors? How much smiles covering swallowed, lonely tears (of Robin Williams or Matthew Perry), followed by thousands of viewers’ laughters?
A life made of words and pictures alone is superficial, partial and impersonal to me. I get to know people through my naked eyes and realistic interactions over a period of time.
I’m staying away from SM, while I can “follow/lead” people in reality.
That’s not what I meant, but I clearly didn’t articulate it very well.
I mean I was concerned that my social media activity/behaviour was entirely dictated by my LO, and that this was actually a microcosm of my wider emotional wellbeing and how she infected it.
Got it! I was thinking possible issues of SM in a broader scale.
You sound doing very well with the “freedom” without LO! Keep it up, no more peeking…🫣
My father taught me not to ask questions that I didn’t want to know the answer to.
Looking at your LO’s social media is a great way to reinforce that you just might not be all that special to them.
Going further, one of my EAP counselor’s favorite questions was: “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
That woman could be a real buzzkill.
In the situation of an unavailable LO, ignorance is REALLY a blessing!
Our imagination of anyone will die soon or later without being fed by scattered information.
LE,
“My father taught me not to ask questions that I didn’t want to know the answer to.”
This made me laugh. It’s like the old adage: Never ask a man, “Where is this going?” If you have to ask, you already know the answer.
To L.E.:
Another question. If I start wishing that I would bump into LO, I ask myself, “If I bump into him, what will I HAVE?”
Q: Why do you keep banging your head against the wall?
A: Because it feels good when I stop.
To L.E.:
There is merit to that argument.
I think it’s simpler than we think. You find him attractive. He sets off feelings you can’t get elsewhere. His bad points are irrelevant to this simple fact.
Your friend’s suggestion is hilarious.
I’m working through the Thought Loops course at the moment. Even having read Dr L’s book and read lots of his material on here, I’m finding it helpful and it brings new perspectives to my situation.
For me, I don’t mind finding LO attractive. Just a normal crush makes life more interesting and isn’t a threat to my marriage. It’s thinking about him when he’s not there that I would still like to reduce, and the Thought Loops course is helpful for this. I already think about him far less than I used to but extra understanding and control of the situation is still helpful.
To Miss Cloud:
I also think my friend’s comments are hilarious, which is why I posted them. I don’t take offense at all; I know she doesn’t understand, and she’s technically correct. LO IS nothing special. I don’t necessarily think he’s a bad influence on me. He’s not trying to persuade me to do anything unwise, although the time I spend thinking about him might be better spent elsewhere.
“Q: Why do you keep banging your head against the wall?
A: Because it feels good when I complain about the pain to others and get their sincere sympathy. The more I get, the more I’ll bang against the wall”
The view from outside Norma’s bubble, compliments of another neighbor, a dear friend of mine, who does not understand limerence.
“LO’s house is an EYESORE! It will never sell. You’d have to be crazy to buy that piece of crap. It looks like a dump!! It will take a special buyer with lots of money. He made a big mistake buying that house. Poor investment.
“I have passed him when he has been standing outside by his house. He is nothing special. I don’t understand it. He is a bad influence, Norma! You are nuts.
“How old is he? 67? Maybe he has early onset dementia.”
To which I say, “But he makes my knees go weak.”
To which she says, “That’s crazy. Why don’t you think about doing charity work instead?”
“That’s crazy. Why don’t you think about doing charity work instead?””
I think that is great advice.
That’s a sign when the limerent is getting better. When there’s less focus on what the LO is doing
and more focus on what they are doing in their own life, their own goals, their own hobbies.
When you (generic limerent) start posting about things you are excited about in your own life, that’s when you know you are moving along on the road of recovery.
Social media played a big, if not the biggest part in the development of my LE. I really want to go into this in more detail here, when I have the time..it’s been hard to get away from it but I finally did yet I still find it hard, if not impossible sometimes, it is not to be underestimated. Thank you for this topic because I have a lot to say about it…
Congratulations, that you finally stayed away from social media!
The temptation of checking xLO would always be there, particularly you were together once upon a time….
Did you say something like that your glimmer at xLO hit you like a freight train, more than a decade ago or recently? So you’ve stopped checking his SM now? Wow, that would be superbly challenging! 🧗
Forgive me if I don’t remember your LE story clearly… 🙂
No worries! And thanks, you remember quite a lot. We briefly dated over a decade ago and there was no glimmer. I met my SO, forgot about him, then we met again. I just wanted to say hi to him, because I was in a phase where I wouldn’t hold any grudges to anyone and simply wanted to recognize his exsistence and the fact that I remembered him, no glimmer, no intentions, probably some naïvety on my side. That’s when he asked if I were on socials and he added me and I instantly regretted my approach. He started sending me messages scattered in the years after that…a like here, a heart there, some chats ‘You crossed my mind lately…’ started talking about topics that interest me, invited me out for walks..Oh yes why not? We can be friends right? Regardless of my SO, there are no deep feelings here right? So let’s be friendly. A like here, a like there, some invites. Oh you know I might be more ‘active’ right now but nothing I post has anything to do with the fact that I am in desperate need of that one little heart from that one particular person? ‘You are my type of woman’ oh yeah sure. Wait a minute..so I am somebody’s type? Now why should you tell me all this? You can imagine the impact. So back and forth, no glimmer..until my relationship with SO got in a rut years later. Turned into a crisis, a near breakup, and then we met again and that’s when the freight train glimmer happened. I could see something sparkling in his eyes and it scared the shite out of me and it made me lose myself in a burst of euphoria simultaneously and it was weird and amazing and nothing I had ever felt before. But I couldn’t act on it. I was in crisis mode. And then the social media thing really hit off and there was no escape. It’s been an intense few years of intermitted reïnforcement, ambiguous encounters, hot cold, breadcrumbs…I am so glad that me and SO worked it out through all this and we are doing so good. But the pull of social media is still there, even though in time I hid, then unfriended, then even deactivated my account. But his posts are set public so in just a few clicks it is so easy to keep up to date, it’s brutal. But the thing that really made me get off the apps completely was the photograph of him and his new girlfriend. So there you go, self preservation mode on. I feel better now. But it’s been tough. Blocking all socials from my life was the best thing I could do.
I see, it’s a story of a long-term, committed relationship conquering transitory, intense limerence, despite its addictive drug quality!
I agree that social media is gasoline to unwanted, unhealthy relations, including “friendship”.
Confradulations again! 🏆
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My entire connection in my LE was 100% based on social media. I was constantly waiting for his new stories, new profile pictures, new messages, and even for him to be online on the Messenger I use, which I could track down to the exact minute. On bad days, I checked my phone every few minutes just so I wouldn’t miss my next hit of dopamine. It was awful.
Are you aware that what you know about your online LO is only fragmented, imagined, or biased (based on your hopes), since you’ve never met him in person?
His new stories, profiles pictures, messages, video clips, etc could all be contrived/performed to impress you and his other “dates” (behind his wife); they’re not realistic or integral of him.
It’s your own imaginations of him and his life, based on those fragmented information that GIVES you a hit of dopamine.
Yes, it is only in my head.. It is so hard to let go. Sometimes it filled my emptyness inside when I checked his profile. when I feel sad and he just writes „whats up?“, I am feeling better.
Can’t you see that the cause of your LE is not LO or his words, even if they’re true, but it’s the sense of your “emptiness”.
If you feel purposeful, busy with your work, your daughter, and your personal life, whatever he says would not make a dent in your life…
Have you sought out therapy to help you with your personal inquiries “what is truly missing in my life? why? How can I reduce/remove the sense of emptiness without using this internet LO as a temporary, inauthentic “painkiller”?
Sorry if I speak too straightforward.
If I knew why I’m so attached to him, I’d be a big step ahead. I told my therapist about it. She isn’t that familiar with limerence. From a psychodynamic perspective, it’s certainly because the inner child in me is searching for affection, attention, and love. An emotional bond is possible even through pure chatting. Since I chatted with him a lot, talked on the phone sometimes, and exchanged quite a few photos, feelings were able to develop. And in my head, the perfect boyfriend started to form. Plus, I just really like the way he looks. That’s a dangerous mix. When I feel lonely, I miss something and project it onto him. It feels to me as if I love him, but this pain is probably due to the fact that I would simply like to have a partner by my side.
Laloba,
If I remember clearly, you guys chatted a lot of erotic stuff, and he’s married and lives hundreds of miles away.
Despite photos and video clips, you have never held his hands, or 5-sense sensed his entire being in reality; you don’t viscerally know YET whether if he’d be a fit partner by your side physically in your reality. Intellectual knowledge and imagination based on words is still very different from visceral experiences.
One’s look is subjective to beholder’s eyes and can’t alone product emotional connection… He goes to bed with his wife daily and might also chat erotic stuff with other females online, how could he ever be a “perfect boyfriend”?! If he were single, then it’d be a different story.
I get it that glimmer and limerence can develop online involuntarily. You clearly know your inner child (the same with many people) needs deep, unconditional love and affection; projecting whatever you miss onto him/LO is expected during LE, but can you realistically get them from him?
And you have a daughter to raise, as a child, she really needs your unconditional affection, attention, love. Now, how could you focus on her while you’re so stuck in a totally unavailable LO? Have you ever thought what your daughter would be like in the future, if your heart/mind is always absent while raising her? She’d grow into another YOU!
In your situation, LE is spiritually/emotionally harmful to both your daughter and yourself. If you can find some available men nearby to fall in smaller crush, that would be helpful.
Wow…i mean. ❄️(snow) That sounds quite harsh. You can’t really drill somebody out of limerence by imposing massive guilt, besides, mothers are humans too and you can be an amazing mother while still being limerent for someone. I was going through a breakup and addictive LE while being an employee for a terrible boss and while it was extremely hard and felt impossible at times still I showed up the best i could manage. In fact limerence is a deeply human thing and it just shows you’re wired for connection.
The thing is that being in limerence while being with an SO made me wonder what it is exactly that I crave for, what attracted me to LO. There is no higher form of romantic love than the companionship you build over the years with someone who really knows you, yet I still crave for LO because it’s different. My answer was ‘my SO doesnt want/crave/long for me like LO does. SO knows me through and through, including my negative sides but doesn’t long for the made up version of me. And it is this particular version you long for that is built up out of the scarce and scattered fragments you know of them, how you have experienced them and the image you see of them and you remember as their facade. And even if you’ve experienced them in real life, your mind is still stubborn to remember the parts as you like to see them. And the unsettling thing is it is not even them you want in reality, you are really attatching to a ghost. But if they cease to exist in the way you’ve built them up that means that the person they long for (you) disappears as well, or has no witness and destination anymore. So the qualities you like within yourself, the confidence they boost within you, all gone with the illusion. That is why you are what you love, not what loves you. Because all those qualities aren’t dead and gone as soon as you lose LO..they are alive and kicking within yourself and being in LE just points towards those qualities within that need your attention and nurturing. Hope this makes sense. It doesn’t come with willpower, it happens gradually and in time you’ll begin to realize and reclaim your love as yours, and all aspects that attract you to them were yours to begin with.
Kat,
“That sounds quite harsh. You can’t really drill somebody out of limerence by imposing massive guilt, besides, mothers are humans too and you can be an amazing mother while still being limerent for someone.”
You’re right that I can’t drill anyone out of limerence by imposing morality or guilt. But I can urge them to use their mind (if a bit out of the altered state of the mind) to think for their own offspring’s long-term wellbeing. Isn’t this a goal of LwL?
I didn’t assume that all limerents can’t be a good parent, but Laloba told us here in the past that her mind was with her LO while taking care of her daughter, which made either her daughter or herself sad (I can’t clearly remember the details). She felt guilty herself and agreed with me that she’d make efforts to act out like a caring mother.
From age 10~15, my mother was in LE with that spy LO first and then a maintenance-worker LO on campus. I got coldly ignored, severely scolded, or sudden ace slaps for 5 years until I finally stopped her by giving back one slap on her face! She’s in constant irritable moods or impatience, so my mental and physical abuse continued after coming back from the exile (during which she didn’t treat me badly), inflicted by my mother in a series of LE.
By definition and as everyone knows here, LE in its peak or limbo stage is very consuming, agonizing, and distracting. Children of any age are very sensitive to detect parents’ moods and attention. They know, even without language, whether their caregiver’s mind/heart was with them or not!
“I was going through a breakup and addictive LE while being an employee for a terrible boss and while it was extremely hard and felt impossible at times still I showed up the best i could manage.”
Are you comparing your insentient work with a 10-yrs old child’s growing needs that requires a mother’s devoted attention, affection, and love (without getting directly paid)? Can I assume that you haven’t raised a child (your own, an adopted or step-child)? Sorry, if I’m wrong.
“In fact limerence is a deeply human thing and it just shows you’re wired for connection.”
So the other 50% of population in the non-limerent tribe are not wired for connection and cannot find a beloved mate? By now, we have learned from LwL that limerence is NOT real love, but a gigantic infatuation (mostly blind), a crazy urge to form a pair-bond with LO, whether a good or dodge one.
Between children and their parents in LE, I’ll always speak on behalf of the children, since they don’t have a voice here. I think and hope you can understand why…
*****
“The thing is that being in limerence while being with an SO made me wonder what it is exactly that I crave for, what attracted me to LO.”
Every partnered liemrent here seems to have their own reasons, sometimes not so uncommon from a bystander’s eyes.
“There is no higher form of romantic love than the companionship you build over the years with someone who really knows you, yet I still crave for LO because it’s different.“
You mean once settled/committed, all romantic elements of a partnership would be gone/dead? And a steady, loving companionship is not/never enough for a limerent?
While believing your SO “really knows” you inside out, do you really know all your selfs (in IFS terms)? What exactly did you crave LO for?
“My answer was ‘my SO doesn’t want/crave/long for me like LO does.”
Can’t remember your story in details; what your LO longs/craves for you which SO doesn’t?
“SO knows me through and through, including my negative sides but doesn’t long for the made up version of me. “
What’s the “made up version of” you? Does SO know this version? LO knows and craves for it?
“And it is this particular version you long for that is built up out of the scarce and scattered fragments you know of them, how you have experienced them and the image you see of them and you remember as their facade.”
You switched the topic here, from a made-up version of you to of them? I assume “them” is LO? Your SO doesn’t know this version of you, since you haven’t disclosed your LE to him, right?
“And even if you’ve experienced them in real life, your mind is still stubborn to remember the parts as you like to see them. “
Yes, you’re creating an idealized phantom inside you, instead of dealing with/accepting the realistic LO. I experienced that in my XLE.
“And the unsettling thing is it is not even them you want in reality, you are really attaching to a ghost.”
Yes, attaching to your own “phantom”, which is not LO, but from inside you.
“But if they cease to exist in the way you’ve built them up that means that the person they long for (you) disappears as well, or has no witness and destination anymore. “
If I understand you here correctly, I disagree with your view. The imagined/created phantom is just one part of you, not all of your selfs. It is overwhelmingly “powerful”/big because you probably projected the phantom onto LO. The phantom just temporarily blocked/repressed your other (IFS) selfs which are also quiet witnesses underneath the center/core.
“So the qualities you like within yourself, the confidence they boost within you, all gone with the illusion.”
They should not, because the qualities and confidence were already inside you sleeping prior to LE. LO/LE as a catalyst made them waking up or you seeing them. They can’t leave with the departure of the illusional LO/LE.
In my case, my XLE temporarily blocked my hidden qualities and confidence (of a lifetime), I subconsciously believed I needed a surrogate parent to feel cared, strong, and worthy. But once XLE following its root, the aged Longing, is pushed away by my own envision, my real selfs immediately surfaced and I magically become my own parent over a couple of hours….
“That is why you are what you love, not what loves you. “
Yes. But you’re more than “what you love” at present or in the past; just keep digging within, you’ll find out more or grow more.
“Because all those qualities aren’t dead and gone as soon as you lose LO..they are alive and kicking within yourself and being in LE just points towards those qualities within that need your attention and nurturing.”
You see (just as I said above), you’ve waken up your true inner qualities/selfs through the catalyst LE, and they remain with you even after LE is gone. No one or phantom can take them away; they can’t, even with your permission!
“Hope this makes sense. It doesn’t come with willpower, it happens gradually and in time you’ll begin to realize and reclaim your love as yours, and all aspects that attract you to them were yours to begin with.”
Superbly said! I think I totally understand what has happened to you, since I’ve gone through it myself more than 17 months ago…. So your LE has completely left you now?
Now, let’s hope and help Laloba see/find her inner powerful selfs which can and will sufficiently care and nurture her “inner child” and her real daughter. 👧
Snow,
Thank you for sharing your story because I feel I understand your response better now. What you describe sounds intense, painful and something You’re carrying with you forever. And I appreciate your sharing.
I’m not a mother myself and didn’t want to make it seem like I’m comparing the responsibilities of my job to those of of a mother, those are worlds apart. I wanted to encourage Laloba to not feel like a bad mother, like she can do it, regardless her condition, which can indeed be all consuming. We have to get through it in some way. It doesn’t just disappear with the right mindset. But I now understand your urgent reply.
It seems though you’re dissecting everything I say word for word without reading further into it. In the end I believe you understand what I’m trying to say. LO doesnt walk away with your inner qualities and they’re not literally gone (which is what I conclude in my reply), I’m talking from my own experience of identifying with the LE, and how the experience felt to me and why it was so painful letting LO go. Because it truly felt at the time like he took off with a vital part (or possibility) of me.
What I mean by no higher form of romantic love is that I wouldn’t trade SO for anyone. We’ve evolved significantly through my LO and I shared it with my SO at the time it was happening. The trust and love (cliche but true) that comes forth out of a durable, long term partnership is uncomparable and a totally different experience. Limerence is completely different from that and it mostly exists because of projection (of that made up version). As I projected my version of him onto LO (basically just how I wanted to see him), I was also constantly seeing myself through his lens (how I wanted to see myself and needed to be validated for). The difference with SO is that I believed, and still do, different people and different circumstances do bring out different parts of yourself, and I wanted to grow and evolve into that.
My LE isn’t completely gone. I’m still struggling with parts of me that feel ‘missing’ or ‘unfulfilled’. That’s why I’m still returning here I guess.
While everyone on here will understand eachother to some degree, you can never understand another completely because each individual case is so different and it’s really hard to explain deeply personal experiences, even to people who have experienced ‘the same’.
Kat,
A quick reply.
Sorry that I misunderstood your big “mumbo jumbo” message. I can better understand shorter sentences and paragraphs.
If your LO is still in the picture, then your vision is still a bit muddled, and can’t see what I’m seeing in my LE-free spot. In short, when LO/LE is gone one day, your awakened qualities — your own phantom, would not disappear or go back to sleep again. Try to envision it now.
Got to run now, later.
Kat,
“Thank you for sharing your story because I feel I understand your response better now. “
Thank you for your better understanding of my previous somewhat “aggravated” post….
“What you describe sounds intense, painful and something You’re carrying with you forever.”
The memory of that piece of history is still clear, but its emotional impact has been washed away by time, except when I recall and talk about it again/repeatedly (also while I have to take care of my unapologetic “abuser” at a regular basis).
That’s why I’m against the therapeutic method of “using anger to repress/avoid depression/dullness. The more one utilizes energy/Chi of resentment (fresh or old), the more that negative Chi intensifies and elongates, making one stuck in the cycle of resentment about something in the past one can never change except to let go. Practicing Stoicism can help dissipates resentment of all sorts for one’s long-term mental/emotional health.
“I wanted to encourage Laloba to not feel like a bad mother, like she can do it, regardless her condition, which can indeed be all consuming. We have to get through it in some way. It doesn’t just disappear with the right mindset. “
One is not a bad mother if she doesn’t abuse her children out of malice or ego to control. But if due to poor physical or mental health (LE falls in here temporarily), a mother takes out their frustrations/pains on her children or helplessly neglects them, then how would w advise/help her? Between a neglectful parent and their children, who’d be the longer sufferers? A truly caring/loving, aware limerent parent needs to repeatedly think/reason in this aspect; logical mind and right actions would lead F brain eventually.
“It seems though you’re dissecting everything I say word for word without reading further into it. “
I literally couldn’t understand (I’m an ESL speaker) what you were trying to say in that super long paragraph, so had to dissect it period by period, in order to comprehend one element in a long, circulatory sentence.
“In the end I believe you understand what I’m trying to say. LO doesn’t walk away with your inner qualities and they’re not literally gone (which is what I conclude in my reply)”
I was very glad to see your conclusion in the end, thus thought your LE was already gone. One’s inner qualities neither literally nor superficially gone, when an external mirror, LO, leaves, which just makes it harder for one to sense them within. The ultimate goal is to clearly see those qualities within and apply them for benefits of oneself (and others, SO), independent from both LO and SO.
“Because it truly felt at the time like he took off with a vital part (or possibility) of me.”
I know how hard/painful it could be to let LO go when one was not mentally/emotionally ready or the LE root was still alive inside one. However, “It truly felt like” indicates it’s an illusion, your logic clearly knows that your qualities stay within you, LO (not the realistic LO) was just a mirror reflecting them, which your SO, as another mirror, seemed unable to reflect at the time.
“What I mean by no higher form of romantic love is that I wouldn’t trade SO for anyone. “
Very wise of you, which would bring you a life-time steady gratifications and more happiness, hopefully.
“Limerence is completely different from that and it mostly exists because of projection (of that made up version).”
That’s what happened with my XLE, which I realized even before I found LwL.
“As I projected my version of him onto LO (basically just how I wanted to see him), I was also constantly seeing myself through his lens (how I wanted to see myself and needed to be validated for). “
Yes! As I said above and in my last post, “his lens” is not the realistic LO’s lens, but your idealized phantom’s lens, serving as a “mirror, reflecting what you already had and so wanted to be validated. So, metaphorically speaking, your own phantom’s eyes are seeing yourself; LO was just a walking “frame” temporarily holding your phantom. Do I make myself clear here?
“The difference with SO is that I believed, and still do, different people and different circumstances do bring out different parts of yourself, and I wanted to grow and evolve into that.”
I agree with you on that different people hold up different mirrors to us (through our interactions), to reflect or “bring out” different parts of us, known or unknown (on the back of our head). Here, you “wanted to grow and evolve into” what? the parts that SO reflects and the parts more echo and match SO’s parts?
“My LE isn’t completely gone. I’m still struggling with parts of me that feel ‘missing’ or ‘unfulfilled’. That’s why I’m still returning here I guess.”
Oh, I’m sorry to hear that. What are still “missing or unfulfilled” parts of present you? Can you name the “hole”? How long have you been here? Has LwL helped you figure out yet your LE’s root(s)? Can we, other aware limerents (different mirrors), possibly wake up the “missing” parts sleeping inside you?
“While everyone on here will understand each other to some degree, you can never understand another completely because each individual case is so different and it’s really hard to explain deeply personal experiences, even to people who have experienced ‘the same’.”
Totally agree. This truth also applies to: No one else, LO and SO included, can ever completely validate or invalidate our inner qualities and all experiences, only Oneself can do it!
I spent some time with LO yesterday and I am seeing more progress.
We had a good time talking, and I was less bothered by my limerence symptoms than usual. I wondered if our relationship could ever be a normal friendship?
I actually don’t think I’d want to be friends with LO. His complete self-absorption was on full display, again, and he did most of the talking.
The talk turned to pregnancy and I told him I had quite a lot of difficulty enduring two amniocentesis procedures for twins back when I was about four months pregnant. He called me a wimp and compared me unfavorably to his mother.
I don’t mind being called a wimp, because it’s true, but it’s unfair to compare me to someone who is more gifted genetically, since I have no control over that.
I told him right up front that I am disabled and have many medical problems. So OF COURSE I am going to have a hard time with a double amniocentesis! For one thing, you have to lay on the table for 90 minutes with a full bladder. That right there is hard, never mind the needles and everything else.
ND,
To “Blame the victim” a little, you did kind of set yourself up for that one.
You talked to a man, an insensitive man at that, in a lot of detail, about a uniquely female topic. You gave him the grenade. A lot of men might find that conversation in general uncomfortable. They shouldn’t but they do.
Telling him that you had significant complications with your pregnancies and let it go beyond that would have been better. If the details aren’t about him, he doesn’t care. It was unfair of him to compare you to his mother. He doesn’t care about that, either. Why didn’t you shut him down?
“You definitely don’t know my medical history and I’d guess that you don’t really know all that much about your mother’s. Don’t compare me to her.”
“I told him right up front that I am disabled and have many medical problems. So OF COURSE I am going to have a hard time with a double amniocentesis! For one thing, you have to lay on the table for 90 minutes with a full bladder.”
In one ear and out the other. It’s all about him. You know your LO. Quit setting yourself up for disappointment. Unless he encounters a burning bush or is struck blind, he’s not going to change. Enjoy his company but keep your expectations low.
Crap would come out of LO #2’s mouth all the time. I couldn’t decide if she was actually malicious or incredibly clueless. I’d explain something to her, she seemed to understand, and 5 minutes later, it was out of her head. I never sensed any vindictiveness or malice in her. Once I understood more about Cluster B personality disorders, I think it was probably the latter. But, I don’t take being demeaned well so I would shut LO #2 down. It got really old.
To L.E.:
Thank you so much for your reply. All excellent points, well taken.
I should have explained in more detail that LO compared me to his mother, who gave birth in the car on the way to the hospital when his younger brother was born.
Well, that’s a nonsensical comparison. His mother is far stronger than I am, and I concede that point. My question is, is LO willing to accept me as a wimp? Because I certainly can’t do any better.
And it’s not all bad being disappointed by LO. The more disappointment, the less limerence.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
That’s what happens when one is trying to “save” a damsel/lad in distress….
I’m with you in listening to someone else’s (except one’s SO) medical conditions in details — one’s privacy. My deceased aunts, Mom all “addicted” to chatting/complaining about their medical issues in such details, that I sometimes just wanted to vomit (I’m not trained as a doctor or a nurse). Why can’t they read some beautiful books and talk about them?
I just received a paper book newly published by the current wife (78) of my x-father-in-law. She worked on it tirelessly for 5~8 years while recovering from her mastectomy and Chemo therapy. A tiny, skinny, but optimistic, tough lady! (I’ll be seeing her again during Thanksgiving).
I haven’t read or thought about Proust for a while, but I saw him and a British King (visiting France, not Charles or two princes) in my dream last night. Along with a red-coat soldier, they three charmingly toured me in a huge, candle lit cave (can’t remember what we discussed).
In the end, I was asked (not sure by whom) where I’d want to take lounging for the evening, I chose to go with Proust, Of Course!
Then, we two walked through some Paris’ winding copper-stone streets in a quiet darkness (no one else was around) and reached to this 5 flats, red-brick building (Dutch style), adjacent with many other similar ones. Proust, in his flamboyant white silk scarf and his mustache, led me walking up stairs (no elevator).
Before I reached his humble looking apartment in the middle on the fifth floor, I woke up! Darn it! 😒 I was hoping to have an endless chat with him… 😍
Ha… remember one detail that I talked about with a British King (from a movie?) and Proust —
I invited them to visit America, but they both told me that they’re absolutely afraid of taking planes (neither took one before), like they just couldn’t swim 🏊♂️
I was a bit disappointed, ☹️ but continued charming strolling with them in the huge cave…. 😊
Maybe I should take more naps throughout day… 🤪
To Miss Snow:
Your dreams are amazing! That sounds like part of a fascinating novel.
And SO much better than icky medical procedures.
To Miss 🏠
I often imagine amazing 😻 /impossible 🎇 stuff in my head (even while enduring stomach discomfort or PT aching here and there) so my dreams could be possibly fabulous…
A lot of dreams 😴 (not all) depend on feeding of thoughts… I almost remember every night’s dreams, only that I don’t report them here daily or weekly, which would be annoying…. No one wants to listen to nightmares and I try to forget them.
Once written down, dreams become “real” to be remembered… 🤩
Can AI feel pain?
https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/m0033j38
Even if they cannot feel pain, should we verbally mistreat/abuse them, when they’re supposedly to assist our specific needs?
Now, AI can be programmed to shut down if its a user keeps verbally “abusing” it. Later, they can be programmed to “defend” itself. Then those ignorant/uncivil users would lose badly, because sentient humans can be easily hurt by mere words, while AI cannot.
Dear LaR,
Also moved our chat to here as the Coffeehouse closed (with apologies to Dr L).
About this:
“Limerent me just rolled with the uncertainty and let every day be a wild ride into the unknown. My more exec brain personality needs order and structure. LO will never be a person to give that. I learned a lot about myself and how to balance different sides of me, through her. Or at least through the sides of myself that attached to her.”
From my own experience, I found that there was a lot of bargaining going on, even after the LE was over and he wasn’t in my thoughts nearly as much. I still made more time for him and was more patient than I have been for other colleagues who required patience for being chaotic so. Actually, he pressed one particular button which was making light of my effort – I have told you this before. He would routinely minimise how large a task was and how it would take to do. Well, sure, if you half-do things and cock them up, you are not going to need very long at all to do that, are you?! I felt that this was also a bit ignorant of him, not to mention misogynistic to let a woman tidy up all the time. This happening repeatedly had the effect of turning me off him. Maybe your LO is nicer.
But is it possible that you are bargaining a little, still, and that her spontaneity / the things you enjoy and appreciate about her are slightly sugar-coated because it’s LO?
“Probably. A learning curve for me has been that an LE just adds another mammoth issue on top, and makes the issues we’re using the LE to avoid or distract from, even harder to deal with.”
Yes, it just hides things until later, postpones them but they are still lurking. Especially with family or SO because those people are not going anywhere and your (plural) dynamic depends on them as well as you. If you (plural) are preoccupied with LO, then the SO/family members are undoubtedly going to pull away and react somehow. The only caveat is if you are an over-thinker to your own detriment, a distraction might actually help (I believe this was the case for me). However, there must be better and less painful distractions than a flippin’ LE.
“I too am working on finding fulfilling things to do with my time (my ‘self care’ is far better now than at any point in my LE) and on being more present in my relationship.”
LaR, one of the thing that got me through a really bad patch in my life (besides the self-medication and distraction of a LE (🙈) was black humour with a sibling about the very things that were so painful. I realise that one needs to have a spare sibling (or other close family member who is ‘in the know’) in order to do this, or maybe do it with SO – perhaps you could each mercilessly take the piss out of each other’s bete noir situation. My siblings and I really came out with some very dark (but funny) stuff when ohters in our family were wrecking our heads.
Have a wonderful weekend, LaR, full of healthy distraction.
B 💙
Hi Bewitched,
Glad to read you had such a nourishing day yesterday with an old friend – sounds great. I like it when that happens.
“But is it possible that you are bargaining a little, still, and that her spontaneity / the things you enjoy and appreciate about her are slightly sugar-coated because it’s LO?”
Very possible indees, but I can feel my tolerance slipping away more of the time now. She still has the ability to blind me with kindness on other occasions – and I don’t believe that’s done with any ulterior motive. I see a holistic picture of her now including good and bad traits, but the balance has shifted.
“He would routinely minimise how large a task was and how it would take to do. Well, sure, if you half-do things and cock them up, you are not going to need very long at all to do that, are you?!”
You have known him a long time and are in the best position to read the situation. Some people are just not gifted at time management or having any appreciation of how long a task will take. My LO is one of those, I can be but to a lesser extent, while my SO is the opposite – very efficient at getting stuff done. Part of me wondered if your xLO is one of those who just isn’t wired to be able to compute these things. But from all you said, plus the misogynistic angle, I trust what you’re saying that it is more calculated than blind bumbling cock-ups, on his part. What do other people in the team affected by it think?
“I realise that one needs to have a spare sibling (or other close family member who is ‘in the know’) in order to do this, or maybe do it with SO – perhaps you could each mercilessly take the piss out of each other’s bete noir situation.”
The only ‘spare sibling’ for that is SO’s (mine is very entwined in the ‘stuff’). I would say SO and her sibling are similar in that around half the time, they’ll use dark humour to help make light of the situation, and will let me do it too. At other times they (the sibling more so) get pulled right into the web of the issue.
The stuff in SO’s family has had quite profound knock-ons to me, and vice versa with mine onto her. There have been times SO and I have just had to agree to take a break from discussing them full stop. We have pulled through the worst of that and are getting better at closing ranks when needed and prioritising ourselves. Since I have been out of the ‘front of mind’ bit of the LE, I am holding up my end of the deal better. It’s never easy in terms of how these things knock on, as you say. I’m glad you could work with your siblings to find some light in the darkness, though. Thank you for the tip.
Lx
Dear LaR
“She still has the ability to blind me with kindness on other occasions”
Thats valuable, isn’t it? As your relationship with her pre dates limerence, especially. You were friends for a reason, maybe because you both see things similarly. You also mentioned in the past protect her from slagging off by colleagues who object to this or that character trait. I see this as a great trait in you, you are a loyal friend. Especially now that you can safely hand-on-heart claim to be more present at home. I really do believe that, if anyone can put limerence to the side and move past it back to friendship, it you 😇
“What do other people in the team affected by it think?”
They just come to me instead of him when anything needs to be done 😆.
He had his good points, for example he always makes sure that I get from A to B safely when we are travelling for work, and I just need to remind myself about those good points when I’m triggered by him.
“There have been times SO and I have just had to agree to take a break from discussing them full stop. We have pulled through the worst of that and are getting better at closing ranks when needed and prioritising ourselves.”
GRRR families!! Being able to get on the same page is the crux of it, though, isnt it? To share the burden instead of tensing up with one another. There are siblings (I have lots) that I can do this with and others with whom I cant. When my SO has family stuff, he and I have gotten better at getting on the same page and sharing that than we did in the past. His family used to close ranks. But to be brutally honest, yourself and SO are one another’s priority, when it boils down to it. The rest of the family come second.
I will leave you to your weekend dear LaR and wish you a happy a d contented one.
Bx
🐝 🧙♀️ & 🎩 🚜,
I think there maybe some solutions soon to deal with our aging family members —
https://youtube.com/shorts/Ijl-w8CYZ0Q?si=Nelw0Dg6PbQQvNBJ
https://youtube.com/shorts/544DDHB4cJU?si=iUIdVQggtoKCp_Us
7/24/365 at your service!
To Limerents who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/p_YDtOMxgz0?si=xxLKUoP3uqG-kQsT
Dear Marcia and LaR,
The old coffeehouse thread got closed so I wanted to chip in here just to say that I’d like to reply to your latest comments when I get back on my PC tomorrow (i am on my phone now and cant scroll between comment and reply). You both had great points and I am itching to respond.
Actually, I am on the train as I have just had a rare catch up with a friend who has known me from college and my brain is on fire with nostalgia and care for her. Its so interesting knowing someone deeply enough to see how they tick and also seeing how hard people can be on themselves. If you (plural) are wired that way, it is tough to accept love and you (plural) can be v defensive. On this occasion my friend’s defences were down and it was a really obvious change from usual.
It gives me a lot of empathy for others (and for myself).
Apologies, I am probably a bit pissed.
And sorry as this is off topic of the blog.
Bx
Dear Marcia,
Moved the discussion here from the AI Coffeehouse.
“I think in general some marrieds are VERY flirtatious. It’s a game. (Not saying you’re playing a game, but some marrieds are.) ”
Yes, I agree, and I think it partly is a delusional thing of ‘did you think I was flirting? That’s not right because, I am married and so you cant have expectations that I’ll follow-through on anything’. It’s like a shield protecting marrieds from being taken too seriously or a license to flirt (since it obviously means nothing).
“What about the marrieds who go have had LEs before? Some on here repeatedly? Is it enjoying the intrigue? The “what if”? The layer of excitement (although I don’t really get why it’s exciting if they never intend to do anything about it). Emotional boredom and they want the drama/trauma? I don’t write that to be mean. Life can get a bit gray flannel sometimes.”
Yes, I think it is either boredom, an assumption that it doesn’t mean anything and is harmless [see above], or they are in real strife in their relationships and using limerence to self-medicate (the latter describes me perfectly because of genuinely awful family health situations, several of them at once, my mind was literally flailing around for anything else to think about and limerence was just about the most absorbing alternative thought going).
“I do think it’s possible to cut limerence off at the knees. You can feel when you’re knocked over by someone and you can feel when you’re about to do something to go off into the lane that will take you into crazy town. ”
Yes, especially having been through it before, taken years to recover, and presumably learnt the lessons. Its quite brave to go there again, if you think about it!
I love the phrase ‘crazy town’ by the way 😹😹😹
“Maybe mutual infatuation in the beginning but not all that obsessive longing and hoping and ruminating and, MOST importantly, uncertainty! In fact, uncertainty is a huge red flag in healthy dating.”
I agree that being aware of this particular red flag not only screens out LE’s that are about to unfold but also those avoidants out there… speaking as one myself, haha. It took me years to become secure enough to get past that.
“OMG the feeling of anticipation before LO-lite came over. All I could think is: I ‘m not dead yet. I’m still here. I’m still alive! 🙂. And yet, limerence is pretty empty. ”
That is the conundrum. Its wild but empty. If only we could programme ourselves into craving the right and *emotionally available* person. Or, on some level preventing ourselves from getting turned on by the uncertainty of the less available people, maybe?
I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.
Bewitched,
“Yes, I agree, and I think it partly is a delusional thing of ‘did you think I was flirting? That’s not right because, I am married and so you cant have expectations that I’ll follow-through on anything’. It’s like a shield protecting marrieds from being taken too seriously or a license to flirt (since it obviously means nothing).”
I’m going to be a bit vague here but … this was an eye-opening experience for me. I was pretty stupid and naive. It was several years ago, at a company where I had to talk to a lot of people for my job. A lot of them were married men, who got very flirty (and so did I). Some sample comments: “If I weren’t married, I’d take you someplace where no one could find us.” “We think you’d be good in bed.” Who’s WE? You’ve discussed it amongst yourselves? (I have to say that I was intrigued by that comment.) Then corporate, as corporate is want to do, rearranged our department and moved us across the very big work campus. Now I was about a 5 minute walk away instead of being plopped down right in front of the married dudes every day. Of all those guys I talked to (and there were a good number, I thought of myself as pretty popular :)), ask me how many made the effort to come and see me. I can count them on one hand, and by that I mean a few fingers.
All of that meant nothing. I’d say 90% of the time, flirtation means nothing. And I’m being generous with that percentage. It does not mean real interest let alone intention. And that can be hard to get your head around if you’re limerent.
“the latter describes me perfectly because of genuinely awful family health situations, several of them at once, my mind was literally flailing around for anything else to think about and limerence was just about the most absorbing alternative thought going).”
I hope those health situations have gotten better.
“Its quite brave to go there again, if you think about it!”
Are you talking about me? I think I was bored. And it was waaaayyy too tempting to turn down. 🙂 There’s something about … how far is he going to push this? Is he going to show up? Is he going to follow through?
“I love the phrase ‘crazy town’ by the way 😹😹😹”
Well, yeah. I very quickly thought: What the hell am I doing?
“Speaking as one myself, haha. It took me years to become secure enough to get past that.”
How did you overcome it? I’m an avoidant. EXCEPT in limerence. Then I’m anxious.
“That is the conundrum. Its wild but empty.”
Good description. I was watching a documentary on people who climb Mt. Everest. The insane expense (upwards of $100k), the years of training, the literal risk to life and limb … and one of the climbers asked himself, “What am I chasing?” Because if you summit, you’re up there for a few minutes. All of that … for just a few minutes.
“If only we could programme ourselves into craving the right and *emotionally available* person. Or, on some level preventing ourselves from getting turned on by the uncertainty of the less available people, maybe?”
That’s exactly what needs to be focused on.
I was just thinking that the other day. Was watching a video on early dating and what happens at about the 7-month mark. According to the experts, it’s when people really start to see each other for who they are and one of the comments was … “I miss the high.” Think about it: SEVEN months in … If you got with your LO, all of that “intense stuff” would die in about 7 months (if you’re lucky; I think it’s earlier). Years of rumination and torture for a physiological feeling that will die. The only reason it takes years to fade instead of months with an LO you can’t have is not because the LO is so great. It’s because you can’t have them. And it keeps you stuck in that really early phase.
“I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.”
I thought you had an SO ?
I’d be creeped out if guys I worked with said they all figured I’d be good in bed. 😛
As for flirting—One LO was single and I heard from two people that he had a “thing” for me and comments that we flirt a lot. I could see that when I looked at our old chats. But he respected my marriage and never touched me even to hug.
I have had LO’s who were also married who flirted with me—but one didn’t touch me, and the other one started doing things that made me think he had more in mind. But when I confronted him, he used the “I do this with my friends and family” defense. And soon backed off. So, plausible deniability.
What made current LO different is that he breached the touch barrier—and kept going. I had to stop him from going too far.
Hi all,
I saw Imho mention my name – 😘😘😘
Great to see/read you all although I skits skimmed posts. I still check in from time to time, but I’m actually in an awful family health situation as Bewitched called it. It’s very exhausting at the moment, I have to take care of my original family while missing my own and all is rather sad and demanding.
Limerence seems such a luxurious superfluous problem at a time like this.
Bewitched said that it led her to limerence as distraction, I can see how that happens, but for me at the moment it’s the opposite, I recognize the true worth of my SO and kids and what a stupid and frilly thing it seems to endanger my relationship to them by some fantasy- steered infatuation.
But I know that back then I couldn’t avoid it any more than any of you.
I agree with ?also Bewitched ? that resentment of LO (oh how well I know it..) is like a pendulum swinging to the other side- all the energy and suffering one puts into the matter, unknown to innocent LO, lets one resent them with an intensity that’s not quite fair but can’t be helped because of the balance of the pendulum. It’s still a step forward.
My LO actually found the right words to ask about my situation (could be he used AI , but I appreciate the effort) which I found rather touching and I don’t feel any resentment at the moment, but also no particular need for contact. But I actually don’t want to see anyone anyway at the moment apart from SO and kids. I’ve got lovely friends reaching out, but somehow I need only peace and family.
It sounds everyone is making progress by disenchanting LOs- way to go! (I never really understood this saying, though. What is the meaning? There is still a way to go? This is the way to go? What?)
Send my love to you all and lots of hugs!
Hugs to you, especially with your current family issues!
Hi Marcia,
I wanted to respond to this one first:
““I mean, deeply reflect on whether uncertainty is somehow a turn-on? I think it might be for me which is not a great way to start looking for a long term mate.”
I thought you had an SO ?”
What I meant was that was me before I met SO, I was very into the chase, aided and abetted by the uncertainty. Only after I met SO did that all go away because, bit by bit, I became more secure and treated my relationship less like a game. SO just had a wonderful effect because he was securely attached, I suppose, and he didnt play games so I could just relax.
My LE was many years later and this had different origins (trauma) rather than dissatisfaction with SO.
Thank you for asking about all of that, by the way, it has resolved itself in the worst way, which was that the people involved are no longer here. It was truely awful at the time and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
“Who’s WE? You’ve discussed it amongst yourselves? (I have to say that I was intrigued by that comment.)”
Thats awful and it sounds as though there might have been a bit of a macho culture going on in that workplace? When you moved 5 mins further away on campus it is indeed very revealing that you barely saw those guys anymore, kind of putting it into perspective how meaningful those ‘relationships’ were. Still, its a good insight to have, isn’t it, that this is fun but not serious? Fun is fine, I guess, as long as everyone is on the same page. I think a lot of work dynamics are situational, they depend on proximity, and they are pretty light-hearted. But people do meet their long term partners at work, I mean, I did.
“I’d say 90% of the time, flirtation means nothing. And I’m being generous with that percentage.”
I’d agree with that percentage. Its like a fun passtime for a lot of people. Sometimes I think bosses at workplaces need to keep the population busier, give ’em more to do, the devil makes work for idle hands 😆😆😆
More seriously, though, knowing your (plural) triggers and vulnerabilities regarding being avoidant it really good info. You might pair up really well with a guy who has a secure attachment style. Obviously he also has to be attractive to you too. If you like him and he makes you feel good, and ye both have fun together, that’s not going to wear off after 7 months, I don’t believe. There is too much going for the relationship by then to jettison easily.
Bewitched,
“What I meant was that was me before I met SO, I was very into the chase, aided and abetted by the uncertainty.”
Ha! I know that feeling.
“Only after I met SO did that all go away because, bit by bit, I became more secure and treated my relationship less like a game. SO just had a wonderful effect because he was securely attached, I suppose, and he didn’t play games so I could just relax.”
Did you relax right away or did it feel strange that he wasn’t playing games?
“Thank you for asking about all of that, by the way, it has resolved itself in the worst way, which was that the people involved are no longer here. ”
You’re welcome, but I’m not following you. The people involved are no longer here ? Do you mean your LO ? I thought you worked with him.
“Thats awful and it sounds as though there might have been a bit of a macho culture going on in that workplace? ”
I wasn’t clear. I wish we were able to edit our posts once we post them. I believe it was a conversation between two guys. Not a group.
I was kind of intrigued. Don’t you want to have a little vixen vibe? 🙂 But while I liked the guys and enjoyed talking to them, I wasn’t interested in either of them … so the comment didn’t have the weight of something said by an LO.
And I’ve had conversations like that with female work friends. I remember one in which she mentioned a male-coworker (it was a private conversation between the two of us) and thought he could accomplish the job. 🙂
“When you moved 5 mins further away on campus it is indeed very revealing that you barely saw those guys anymore, kind of putting it into perspective how meaningful those ‘relationships’ were.”
Exactly
” Still, its a good insight to have, isn’t it, that this is fun but not serious?”
At the time, it was pretty jarring to learn. It underscored what I feared about male attention — how fleeting it was.
“I think a lot of work dynamics are situational, they depend on proximity, and they are pretty light-hearted. ”
That’s what I was trying to tell Phil.
Most work friendship fade out (and pretty quickly) once you or the other person leaves the job.
“But people do meet their long term partners at work, I mean, I did.”
That’s very true. But you developed a relationship outside of work. Without that, the relationship/friendship pretty much ends when the job does. Or I have found you may keep in touch but the contact gets more and more infrequent and can even fade out completely over time.
” Its like a fun passtime for a lot of people. Sometimes I think bosses at workplaces need to keep the population busier, give ’em more to do, the devil makes work for idle hands 😆😆😆”
I could not agree less. 🙂 Work is a four-letter word. And I DO NOT want more of it. 🙂
” If you like him and he makes you feel good, and ye both have fun together, that’s not going to wear off after 7 months, I don’t believe. ”
The early, sexual tension-high chemistry phase ends.
“There is too much going for the relationship by then to jettison easily.”
I didn’t write that you jettison the relationship. But that it changes.
Dear Marcia,
“Did you relax right away or did it feel strange that he wasn’t playing games?”
I relaxed pretty much immediately. It was quite a different experience, like, an easier dynamic than usual even though I was nuts about him, so very nervous too, in many ways.
“You’re welcome, but I’m not following you. The people involved are no longer here ? Do you mean your LO ? I thought you worked with him.”
Oh, I was talking about the trauma in my family of origin that led to me self medication using limerence. That trauma ended because the people in question, my family members, are gone (deceased). It was awful, a really acutely bad period for us all. I am still trying to get over it.
“I was kind of intrigued. Don’t you want to have a little vixen vibe? 🙂 But while I liked the guys and enjoyed talking to them, I wasn’t interested in either of them … so the comment didn’t have the weight of something said by an LO.
And I’ve had conversations like that with female work friends”
I have also had this but not recently. When I was in my 20s or 30s. Whereas, the workplace I am in now is very “platonic” in its dynamics! Well, as far as I can see which is probably not much, given my colleagues and their (our) age bracket. Sometimes there is a need to travel fornwork, which I guess is where the glimmer may start (or it did for me, that one time with xLO – but like I say, I think my mind was just flailing for a rescue/ distraction at the time).
“I could not agree less. Work is a four-letter word. And I DO NOT want more of it. ”
😂
As you say yourself, you are “not dead yet!”. Hurrah for you, you’re single, why not. I would love to be in on all the gossip, actually 😋😜
Bewitched,
“It was quite a different experience, like, an easier dynamic than usual even though I was nuts about him, so very nervous too, in many ways.”
How was it before your SO? I’ve heard that a lack of anxiety is what you’re supposed to look for.
But there’s a part of me that digs the anxiety. That’s the problem.
“Oh, I was talking about the trauma in my family of origin that led to me self medication using limerence. That trauma ended because the people in question, my family members, are gone (deceased). It was awful, a really acutely bad period for us all. I am still trying to get over it.”
I’m sorry you went through that and are still going through it. It’s very common for the root of limerence to be childhood trauma.
“I have also had this but not recently. When I was in my 20s or 30s. Whereas, the workplace I am in now is very “platonic” in its dynamics! ”
My current workplace is platonic. I never put any kind of vibe out there (at work or elsewhere) unless I sense the other party is receptive and/or being very obvious.
The job I referenced was a while ago. Where I met my 2nd most recent LO.
“Well, as far as I can see which is probably not much, given my colleagues and their (our) age bracket.”
I’m sorry. I’m a little slow today. 🙂 Your colleagues are or are not vibey, gossipy and possibly hooking up ? 🙂
“As you say yourself, you are “not dead yet!”. ”
No, I am. The aliveness was only the short time with LO lite.
“Hurrah for you, you’re single, why not. I would love to be in on all the gossip, actually ”
That job was a while ago.
The current job … it’s not that type of party. 🙂
Dear Mila,
I know that you probably do not have a minute to yourself, but I just wanted to send all my best to you at this awful time. I had a whole reply typed out but lost it as I am on my phone 🙈.
Short version is just a compliment – your comments sound very wise.
We can be grateful even when going through something so stressful and sad.
Lots of love
B ❤️🩹
🌹 To Limerents who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/p_YDtOMxgz0?si=xxLKUoP3uqG-kQsT
🌹 🌹
To refresh your weary eyes and sore limbs — 🌹
https://youtube.com/shorts/1FQ7sKka_rE?si=CM-GRv6O9ayplJz1
Beautiful. Thanks ❄️
She is captivating them all. It reminds me of the Ann Patchett book (Bel Canto) which is a great read.
Bx
🐝 🧙♀️,
Thank you for the recommendation, I’m going to listen to the book: just got its audio version, I like to hear a human voice (not an AI’s) to read stories with her/his own style/accent.
I hope you keep doing well without too much weary working and family caregiving… 🤗
Here are some rare birds’ Bel Canto: https://youtube.com/shorts/J3b5PfddD10?si=mkGvO_KhIt3ZdgYq
They’re all so into calling their LO for sure! 💗
Bewitched,
So good to see you posting again.
This is off topic, but the name “Bel Canto” reminded me of my favorite restaurant in college, raised old memories, and had me googling other usages of the term.
Getting back on topic, I do intend to read the book, with such a worthy endorser!
BTW, I’ve been eavesdropping on the rest of your conversations, which have explored so many themes that I find relevant to my own life as well.
In the last few months, my life has suddenly got busier, but I do intend to write more within the next few days.
🐈⬛ 🚲
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
🌹 Those who are playing the quintet of realistic caregiving include you, MJ, and some quiet ones behind the LwL curtain 🌹
Androgynous Bel Canto — (hope no “ghost” here to pass out…) 💗
https://youtube.com/shorts/FyU6MU9ZPss?si=e3T_3Z4mku1e8y0v
More birds’ Bel Canto —
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5xuALTG41s?si=o7xrHd-HBDzChB6R
Earnest courting LOs —
https://youtube.com/shorts/VV5YRIpHO9A?si=PyBg4Y_SlEoik2VI
This just proves my theory is correct about God being a comedian. Who else would create a variety of creatures that move and sound like that? 😂
Dear 🐈⬛️🚵♂️,
I look forward to your update. I did keep up with you and LaR’s conversation, a while back, so I do feel I have been keeping track. For me, I am at a time of life when culture becomes more important, by which I mean, art, literature, music, etc. Hopefully not for indulging in LO fantasy either (personally I am past that luckily) but, rather, to make sense of life’s big stuff – if that doesnt sound too pretentious!
Looking forward to checking in with you again soon.
Bx
❄️,
Thanks for the shoutout. I must say that while there is definitely a highly emotional aspect to caring (and repeated, long, trips to) my mom, my sisters are the ones doing the lion’s share of the work. I am doing only the cat’s share.
I’ve been thinking a lot about your last message to me. You absolutely hit the nail on the head on several points, and you caused me to think on yet other points.
… and I’m still pondering; promise to reply soon.
Dear Bewitched,
It’s interesting that you want to attach a greater importance to culture. As my transition to retirement proceeds, I am trying to do something similar, albeit probably on a smaller scale than you (more on that later). One of my goals is to get back to reading literature, but I find that when you’ve gotten out of that habit due to the instant availability of the internet, reading real literature without distraction requires a certain discipline that I do not possess. For about the past quarter century, I have been attempting this in fits and starts, with a major focus on “brown” women authors, but I am working on being more regular about this pursuit.
So, getting back to my young lady friend (YLF) – my term for what others call LO, a term that I refuse to use. 😉 In trying to encapsulate the recent immigrant experience, talking to my therapist, I used the term “existential loneliness” to describe the feeling of living in the dominant culture, even for those who were very young when they immigrated to the West (such as myself), or possibly even born here (such as YLF). I believe that this was a major factor, and probably the requisite condition, for the enduring bond between YLF and myself. Interestingly, barely a few weeks after that conversation, the novel “The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny” by Kiran Desai was released. I do intend to get to it eventually, but am a bit intimidated by what I’ve read about its heft, and am therefore first attempting easier reads.
Now, onto the ongoing discussion about finding flaws. I fully appreciate your success (and that of others), in finding things about LO that irritate you, but that strategy has not really worked for me for a number of reasons. First, I have had deliberately limited contact with YLF since meeting her, and I fully realize that the way I truly “know” her is rather limited. Second, and possibly just as important, is that both YLF and I are still “on our best behavior” stage, which again has occurred over a more prolonged period than usual due to the nature and frequency of our contacts. Indeed, in comparing with my significant prior relationships, it would have been impossible to see any major flaws in the partner not only because of being blind to them, but also because they were not even on display during the courtship stage. In the case of a prior girlfriend some thirty years ago, most likely of mutual limerence (with hers probably stronger – I know, hard to imagine!), her middle- and late-stage behavior in the relationship (which involved many reversals and was extremely frustrating to deal with), was absolutely not on display at first. Nearly a decade later, my now-wife also did not display any obvious personality flaws during the courtship phase, even though I would not consider it a limerent relationship, at least on my part. The flaws that have emerged over the years are ones that, for the most part, are ones that I have decided are tolerable for me. There is only one major issue that still causes me some dissatisfaction, but we have made some progress in resolving it also. BTW, I have plenty of flaws too – it is not as though I am laying all the blame on her! But that is wandering off topic.
And now the counterpoint. In the first five or six months of this year, I did try not so much to find YLF’s flaws, but focused on the futility and inappropriateness of it all, primarily by realizing that she is nowhere near reaching emotional maturity. Perhaps she has intellectual maturity, but not emotional. I was making real progress in overcoming the limerence; indeed, at several moments, I thought the limerence was well on its way to ending. I had also made the decision in April to leave my job within the next six to nine months (which I haven’t yet mentioned to YLF). Alas, all of that came tumbling down in our last conversation in July, when we had a very wide-ranging discussion, talking about our hobbies, poring over photographs, discussing her future plans (but not mine). There was one issue in particular that she handled remarkably well, especially for someone so young. In fact, I could not have handled it as well, nor could most people of any age. So much for her lack of emotional maturity, or so I thought. In addition, I became uncomfortably aware that our friendship, our bond, was again deepening, the exact opposite direction to where it should be moving. And there’s more – as the conversation went on, she became increasingly giddy, with serious echoes of our “reunion” meeting a year earlier. I hate to admit it, but it again became really hard for me to completely shut down the notion that there was a mutual crush. Others here have said that when a girl or woman likes you, she can behave with great kindness and/or become quite giddy. But this seemed something different, especially when her giddiness was in contrast to her usual speaking style, which is an academic monotone (rather like myself).
Well, that was three months ago. Since then, I have gradually returned to focusing on the futility of it all. It is important to avoid a repeat of this cycle, which means avoiding unnecessary contact.
I am really looking forward to your thoughts; don’t be afraid to challenge me!
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
Dear 🐈⬛🚴♂️
Okay, so here goes and I won’t be afraid to challenge you 😊.
“but I find that when you’ve gotten out of that habit due to the instant availability of the internet, reading real literature without distraction requires a certain discipline that I do not possess.”
I hear you! I have the same problem, used to love books but then got out of that habit and into scrolling. My exception is when I travel alone, for work or socially, I treat myself to a book and choose something that I know I am going to enjoy, and usually finish it in one sitting. The key for me is that I don’t feel guilty if its not highbrow 😊.
This is so interesting “I used the term “existential loneliness” to describe the feeling of living in the dominant culture”.
You said that this creates a bond with YLF, who I think you mentioned in the past is also not from the dominant culture where you live. I can only imagine what that loneliness feels like. Do you two share a similar culture? Or, in what way do you think that bond works (positive things in common/solidarity against difficult things, or protective maybe? How do you think YLF feels, being from another culture, but trying to make her way in your career discipline or even in her life? Do you think she looks up to you as someone who is like her and “made it”? Does she have other examples of that to point to? If so, and if you leave your shared workplace, I imagine that might bring a degree of comfort to you, in time?
“I did try not so much to find YLF’s flaws, but focused on the futility and inappropriateness of it all, primarily by realizing that she is nowhere near reaching emotional maturity. Perhaps she has intellectual maturity, but not emotional”.
Futility is a *very* fruitful direction as this has many strands and works on many levels. It is an acceptance that this relationship can’t ever be what you wish it to be. This is pretty profound, when you think about it…
Futility was one of the things that helped burn off the worst of the red-hot stage of limerence for me. I think LaR mentioned that, for him, it helped cement the ‘death of hope’ (another profound realisation). Keep going on this line, would be my strong advice to you. Do some irrespective of “evidence” arising out of interactions with YLF – see below.
“as the conversation went on, she became increasingly giddy, with serious echoes of our “reunion” meeting a year earlier. I hate to admit it, but it again became really hard for me to completely shut down the notion that there was a mutual crush.”
You know what I told myself when it all seemed mutual? It doesnt matter.
Because its Futile – for many many reasons.
Thinking things through to their logical conclusion helps with the concept of futility. It airs the reality and helps prevent the fantasy taking over. For example, some people get crushes, then forget them just as quick. Even if YLF has a crush, its no guarantee of anything lasting. And us limerents want everlasting blissful union with our chosen ones, don’t we? Using your critical faculties, you can always find something to help you see the futility of all of this.
Finally, I don’t know if this will help you but it really helped me: even if you think there is evidence for a crush, on balance, persuade yourself of the opposite. The truth is that – more than likely – any evidence gathered or truths learned will all look very different when you are over the episode ecause everything is viewed with a different (much less intense) lens. You will have been glad that you accepted the futility of the situation and never lost your way too much over this (beguiling) young girl.
Do some irrespective of “evidence” arising out of interactions with YLF – see below.
Sorry, this should have read:
‘Do *so* irrespective of “evidence”‘
Sir CC,
I thought I’d chime in, as Larry hears everything 👁. I think Bewitched has given you a very good set of guidance to focus on futility. I can extend that – if you play every possible scenario of it through in your head that involves finding out if it is a mutual crush, can you honestly say any one of them leads to a good outcome?
Here’s how I used to look at it. Say I said to my LO “I LIKE you”, three possible things could come back:
1. “I don’t like you in that way, just as a friend”. Outcome = disappointment and awkward relations
2. Uncertain answer either way. Outcome = prolonged and intensified limerence
3. “I feel the same”. Outcome = ‘jeez, how do I manage this now?’ / guilt / the part of an LE after disclosure that posters (eg LiS, Speedwagon, others whose names I forget) have described as worse than pre disclosure.
All those roads lead to futility.
Compare the path travelled by us both – harbouring and managing the limerence. It is long and painful but nothing disastrous has happened. And I can honestly say these words now – I am glad I never found out if my LE was mutual. I would not have known what to do with the information if I had it (©️ DrL or L.E. or both).
I also wanted to chime in on the giddiness point. Do you think there could be other reasons she grew giddy besides a crush? I know I have been banging this drum relentlessly, but if she just finds the communication with you warm and pleasant, and she respects you and feels glad you give her the time, that could all tilt a young woman towards giddiness. I have experienced this sort of thing too in my LE. At the time, I had to rely on others here saying “that could just be friendly signals”. Now, I actually believe it for myself. I am beginning to look back at the thing and think “why on earth did I think like that?” now. I can’t buy back the years it took, but it does feel empowering.
As ever in terms of actions, you seem to be taking good ones – by taking no action! I hope you can calm your thoughts. I can understand through your explanations, the many factors that make YLF a draw for you, hence why all this becomes harder.
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️,
Here’s more on “existential loneliness”. I found the following AI overview:
“Existential loneliness is a deep, intrinsic sense of aloneness that comes from realizing your subjective experience of the world can never be fully shared or understood by anyone else”,
as well as this web site: https://www.authenticallylivingpsych.com/post/existential-loneliness:
“Existential loneliness is an emotional experience of disconnection from self, others, and your larger world context.”
I feel that these statements capture the gist of my feelings extremely well, and at least for as long as I can remember. While not being fully “of” the dominant culture certainly exacerbated these feelings, that was not the sole cause of it. I am sure that my history of limerence was an equally great contributor, possibly shared by others on this site. BTW, I am not saying that I am not in any way opposed to this culture. In fact, if asked what worldview I most closely adhere to, it would have to be the post-enlightenment, liberal, secular worldview. Afterall, I’ve been educated in the larger “West” from age seven onwards, am a rational thinker (the limerence not withstanding!), and am not a strong believer in any of the Eastern cultural or religious practices that formed some of my early upbringing. I do, therefore, would feel just as much existential loneliness if, for some weird reason, I were to be thrust back into my COO. Now, as to YLF – while her parents are also from my COO, their mother tongue is not the same as mine, and furthermore, neither one of us is fully fluent in our respective mother tongues. So, we are both sitting “on the edge” of Western culture.
Regarding your question, “in what way do you think that bond works?”
I don’t think of it as something that works towards a shared goal, but more as a shared understanding, like “we both know, being relative outsiders, what it is to have that feeling of aloneness in the world”. The reason I feel this way, and have felt increasingly so over time, is that she essentially has never asked me for help with anything. Instead, I feel it is strictly an emotional bond.
And your question, “Do you think she looks up to you as someone who is like her and “made it”?”
I suspect that is the case, and that is why it is so important to me to behave like someone worthy of being looked up to, and also why I do not want to cruelly and abruptly sever the connection when I leave.
And “Does she have other examples of that to point to?”
I don’t really know the answer to that, but I suspect she may already have “real” mentors at work and at educational institutions, and by “real”, I mean those who help her out in more concrete ways and provide her with career advice. I believe that ours is a different sort of relationship. I say this because my own relationships with mentors were very different, focusing more on the “real” mentor stuff, and less on the part about bonding, even if limerence were totally stripped from the equation.
I hope I’ve answered at least some of your questions. I’ll address the remaining questions from you and LaR regarding “futility” in my next post.
Thanks as always,
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
Loneliness
Katherine Mansfield
Now it is Loneliness who comes at night
Instead of Sleep, to sit beside my bed.
Like a tired child I lie and wait her tread,
I watch her softly blowing out the light.
Motionless sitting, neither left nor right
She turns, and weary, weary droops her head.
She, too, is old; she, too, has fought the fight.
So, with the laurel she is garlanded.
Through the sad dark the slowly ebbing tide
Breaks on a barren shore, unsatisfied.
A strange wind flows … then silence. I am fain
To turn to Loneliness, to take her hand,
Cling to her, waiting, till the barren land
Fills with the dreadful monotone of rain.
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️,
Here’s the next part of my reply.
Regarding the futility of the situation, I agree with virtually everything you said. On that point, I have consciously acted with an awareness of that knowledge, even if, subconsciously, I may have acted in ways that were not consistent with my long-term goals. However, my greatest challenge were the intrusive thoughts, which peaked some ten to fifteen months ago. Today, even after the recent “echo”, they are still down enormously than those tormented months last year.
Regarding “some people get crushes, then forget them just as quick.” Yes, that is true in many, many cases, and also what I expected from YLF. That is why, when, her super-focused attention kept returning year after year, I was so surprised and so honored each time. Weirdly, in spite of my occasional distress, this whole experience has been rather uplifting and valuable to me on multiple levels. It has, for example, given me a greater sense of my own strengths – those of a mentor, a conversationalist, as someone who others want to be around, even if it is a friendship and not a crush. Perhaps especially so if it is “just” the former. Now, one might debate if such a relationship can even be a true friendship, a huge topic on this site.
Regarding “even if you think there is evidence for a crush, on balance, persuade yourself of the opposite.” Bewitched, that is an excellent strategy. I am attempting something like that for the present situation and going forward. However, that will be virtually impossible for me to reframe the “reunion” event last year – that would require me to play mental tricks on myself, which have mostly failed when looking backwards, but have a far better chance of succeeding going forward. I certainly hope to get a state in the near future where I can view it “with a different (much less intense) lens.” Quoting a phrase from one of my favorite progressive rock songs, “Epitaph” by King Crimson”, “if we make it, we can all sit back and laugh.”
Thank you again for your most wise perspective, Bewitched.
🐈⬛ 🚲
Sir Comrade LaRRy,
All great ideas!
Thanks for your ongoing support,
The Meowist.
Dear 🐈⬛🚴♂️,
My apologies for the late reply – I have been away doing cultural things, a short trip to celebrate being alive and get away before Winter sets in.
I really appreciate your replies – there is so much thought in your replies which give a great sense of your predicament.
To respond to this first:
“Instead, I feel it is strictly an emotional bond.”
I imagine that this makes it all the more difficult for you – as it seems that YLF is not using you to get ahead in her career, in some way. (This could have been a factor with someone with a more, shall we say, utilitarian personality).
Plus, if we are talking about an emotional bond, I can totally see how you don’t want to let her down by cutting contact abruptly / when you feel the time is right for you – even if that’s what would be best for you. I am not saying that it is, btw, the slow fade you spoke about before seems a good option, too from both your perspectives.
“I suspect that is the case, and that is why it is so important to me to behave like someone worthy of being looked up to, and also why I do not want to cruelly and abruptly sever the connection when I leave.” “I believe that ours is a different sort of relationship (than with a regular mentor)”
Are your feelings for her almost paternal, do you think? So if, for example, you could somehow be reassured that she was fine, secure, independent and happy, would feel better moving on, yourself?
Or would you still harbour some regrets over relinquishing this relationship?
I am sure you already have asked yourself this question as you seem resigned to the end of all of this, even if still thinking through the practicalities.
“Weirdly, in spite of my occasional distress, this whole experience has been rather uplifting and valuable to me on multiple levels. It has, for example, given me a greater sense of my own strengths – those of a mentor, a conversationalist, as someone who others want to be around, even if it is a friendship and not a crush. Perhaps especially so if it is “just” the former. Now, one might debate if such a relationship can even be a true friendship, a huge topic on this site.”
I can imagine the fact that she bestows all of this validation must be so alluring. I too felt mostly uplifted by my limerent episode, or, uplifted compared to reality which was a very long and drawn out traumatic family health situation that I badly needed to be distracted from. Believe it or not, the LE continues to be something I value today, I think it saved me from unbearable pain, even though LO himself mostly just drives me mad. Amazingly, it is as though the LE I went through is now a separate entity in my head from LO. And of course it is, when you think about it! Because the whole thing was so much more about me than about him. I needed a distraction, (to an almost existential extent) he provided that and thank goodness he did.
Maybe this could be framed the same way for you? For example, I really think you should think about yourself with a lot of confidence because of the man you are, what you have achieved, etc. Can you separate out the confidence YLF gives you from YLF herself? Can you take that forward in life because you have so much to be confident about. You have “made it” in life, despite feeling like an outsider, you write so beautifully and so thoughtfully about your life on LwL, you literally make it look effortless, you have really coped so well with this LE (honourably, I would day). You have built a life filled with family and friends who love you and also work colleagues who value and, it seems, love you (like what your older mentor said in that speech he made when you retired). It could be so great to leave for good with YLF somehow representing the value and trust your work colleagues have for you. Something about you and having you in their lives enriched them. Work seems really important to your sense of worth and I really get that as I am a bit like that too. It’s maybe inevitable when we love what we do that it takes on an extra significance. I think that coming to the end of that must be quite a lot to digest for you, but how wonderful to leave with confidence that you made a contribution and really mattered to people. You did great! You have lots of good memories and can now enjoy doing other things.
You also have family who need you, you matter to them, even though its challenging.
I don’t want to seem patronising, because honestly, you appear to have it all worked out already. It is astonishing to me that you are not brimming in confidence in every facet. I wish you could truly believe this, it seems like a terrible waste of time not to?
Yours, an impressed
🐝🧙♀️🧹🧹
Dear 🐝🧙♀️🧹🧹,
That was so beautiful, among the greatest compliments I have ever received. I read it this morning before I left for work (for the sole purpose of donating at a blood drive being held there), and had a spring in my step the entire day!
Ever so appreciatively,
🐈⬛ 🚴♀️
Dear🐝🧙♀️🧹🧹,
Happy Halloween!
Hope you get a chance to see this before the night is over!
I feel that I must tell you yet again just how much your replies mean to me. They are so filled with wisdom, and without an iota of preachiness. I truly appreciate that you find so much good in me, and reminders such as yours really help me to keep up my spirits during stressful times, such as now, with major changes looming.
“Are your feelings for her almost paternal, do you think? So if, for example, you could somehow be reassured that she was fine, secure, independent and happy, would feel better moving on, yourself? Or would you still harbour some regrets over relinquishing this relationship? I am sure you already have asked yourself this question as you seem resigned to the end of all of this, even if still thinking through the practicalities.”
You are absolutely correct, Bewitched, I have indeed mulled this over (probably too much!) and am trying very hard to become my “ideal self”, one who can have the paternal feelings but not the longing. I absolutely do experience elements of these more paternal feelings, but they also revert back and forth to limerent feelings.
I am glad to hear that you too have also found uplifting aspects in your own LE, which you continue to value today. Having mostly read your more recent posts, I was beginning to wonder if this guy offered nothing but annoyances!
“Can you separate out the confidence YLF gives you from YLF herself?
That is yet another beautiful framing, Bewitched. Not just that sentence, but the entirety of what you wrote! I really do believe that I am getting along quite far on the journey towards self-confidence, albeit with occasional lapses.
It seems as though you have been on a similar journey towards self confidence and self realization, and I wish you all the best!
Your truly,
🐈⬛🚴♀️
Women who can sing and perform like that are so very attractive.
Made to look like it was impromptu, this has to be staged.. Well done..
Even though I can do without the piece.
LO and I had a very odd experience yesterday. We had wildfires very close by, and the Starbucks actually closed and evacuated while I was waiting for him to arrive.
I told the barista I was waiting for LO, who she knows well, and she prepared his two favorite drinks. When LO arrived, the door was already locked, but they let him in and gave him the two drinks for free.
LO and I sat in his car and talked. He was nicer than usual, because he was very appreciative of the fact that I had told the barista he was coming and got him his drinks. Otherwise, he would have been out of luck. He was starving and was really in the mood for his Starbucks drinks.
It occurred to me that I should not have to do anything special in order for him to treat me well.
After we both got home, he called me to talk about the fires, which were uncomfortably close. My old neighborhood, where I lived when I was married, was affected, and my old street was mentioned on the TV news. Some homes were destroyed, but I think my old house was okay.
It was very odd seeing my old neighborhood, which I LOVED, in so much peril. I have no such attachment to where I live now. I was forced to downsize horribly, 25 years ago, and I have never developed much of a fondness for my current house, although I am very grateful to have it.
Super weird day.
buy Viagra over the counter Silden Rx Express buy Viagra online
Hey Beautiful, I’m still here.
Didn’t forget you.
Moved this here, so you have something easy access and to cheer you up while you eat breakfast. 😆
“You have to be cruel to be kind. 🙂 (I know you know that reference. :))”
Yes I do know that reference and thank you for reminding me of my middle age. Not really a fan of ELO either. Never was. That one especially.
“I was being generous. You can’t drink saltwater. It’s toxic. And what are you going to do for food? Fish with your bare hands?”
I think you just want to see me suffer. You know, karma for not giving more mature ladies (our middle age) a chance.
Gotta go with what I know. I had terrible luck all through middle school and high school wasn’t much better. Then I went and f—ed up and got married. You know how well that didn’t go.. 😑
“We’ve had this conversation. You’re not doing anything for it to happen.”
We have and we’ve also had the conversation revolving around my current constraints. I really don’t think I’m supposed to find a life partner right now anyway. There’s just way too much bs going on in my personal life and it takes up way too much of my time. It’s messy, stressful, sad, etc. Truly it requires a mature mindset and one of true understanding from a respectable other. Is there a pool of outstanding Women ready for this? Because there are always surprises. Any Woman at this point may as well be going for just the hookup because I think that’s about the extent of my emotional output. I can’t even seem to get in the ballpark of that anymore either. Let alone a cup of coffee, so I’m trying to be at peace about it. Not gonna lie. It’s hard not to be bitter. No good Woman wants this. No matter what her age is. Would you? I highly doubt it.
“How would you know? All you ever do is cruise at work or at Walmart. Oh. I’m sorry. Also the bank.”
The selection at work varies and there is a smorgasbord of Women, every age, shape and size. I would say I still have the best chance there. At least for now since I can hardly get out much and often am just not up for it either. Not that I can’t make arrangements, but I’m just not interested in something probably not going according to plan anyway. I mean you’re probably right about my feelers going out. I’m wearing my heart on my sleeve..
As of late, I’ve been chatting it up with a light skinned black girl at work, who I think senses my interest but I’m just not sold on the idea of her yet. I feel like she comes with drama. She looks to be mid to late 30s. Bright red hair, ton of cute freckles and super cute lips. Plus I haven’t asked her if she’s got a man yet either. Or kids. (Let’s hope not)
I compliment her often, try to see and chat with her when she comes in, but it’s not every day because she works an odd shift and on different days too. So only about 2 days a week I have opportunity. Really I’m kinda indifferent about her so I really don’t care where it goes. I got a hug from her recently and she smelled really good. I enjoyed that immensely. I think she’d make for a fantastic hookup but overall may not be worth my time. Just don’t think I should get involved too much. I can’t even gauge her interest level either and I don’t know if I care. I feel like the way she looks at me sometimes is signaling something but I’m not sure. She might not be into big, dumb, middle aged, white dad dudes. Or you never know, we might be on the same page. I think I might try to get her number soon. See what happens if I ask her out to dinner via txt.
Btw, they changed the configuration of checkout lanes at that WalMart so I never see ol’ girl anymore. Which is really ok by me because she had kind of an attitude anyway. Which was a total turn off..
And Bank Girl? Well I never get enough of her. We still have the greatest little conversations when I can get her alone at her window. I would love to get her away from dude. Not like he’s gonna put the cuffs on her anytime soon anyway. May as well let MJ take over. I’ll treat her right.. 😁
“Idk. She likes the attention ? Some people have no intention of going beyond the talking stage. You can’t assume someone wants the same kind of interaction that you do.”
I think a long time ago, Lovisa posted about men often get it wrong about a woman’s intent. Like women are just being friendly and cordial when they meet a guy and often us men already have plans on moving them in next week. Doesn’t help I’m so hungry for something either, so I naturally wanted to think her seeing me around, smiling at me, saying hi was signaling love or some sort of interest. To me, dropping her number right out the gate meant possibility too. We seemed to click well. It was new. Exciting to me. Plus she’s just all around cute. Like a simple cute too. I could easily see myself enjoying her company over dinner. Or even just for coffee. Her being bi or gay didn’t even cross my wires once.
“Well, two out of the four were definitely pervs.”
And then you met this guy MJ online, who admitted having a preference for younger ladies. Like thats never happened before, lol.. He must be a perv too. 🙂
“I guess it didn’t hurt to disclose your interest in her when you did. (I consider “disclosure” a verification of interest. Doesn’t have to be deep feelings. What you did was disclose. You laid it out there.) I just personally wouldn’t have done it unless there’d been some established mutuality.”
I figured I had nothing left to lose. If I was automatically not in the zone of her interest because of my sex, why not just admit my angle? It didn’t matter to me about anything not being mutual. If anything I just figure if she swung back, perhaps I could be on radar. I don’t like the fact getting her number was her desiring just another guy friend. She has enough of those already.
“Are you REALLY going to correct me on word usage/grammar when yours is routinely poopie pants? 🙂”
Yes I can and I did.. 🙂
And what do you mean mine is all poopie pants? Your boy Sammy Sams always liked my writing style. I have good grammar and I am an excellent speller. How dare you misjudge me. You better get yourself together woman. Before I go get my rubber hose and beat you with it.. 🤣🤣
“Being asked out over text is just my personal preference.”
Adding that to my list of do’s.. 🙂
It’s also your hover approach. We’ve talked about this. 🙂
I think I got used to this because of my work environment. If I want to go talk to someone, I need to go find them and do it.
Like even if I still wanted to meander over to the offices and look for LO, I could.
However it holds true what you always say about their interest level. If they really want to be around you, even just to talk, they would find a way.
Nothing like holding a balloon and then popping it, just to watch it deflate. 😣
MJ,
“Hey Beautiful, I’m still here.”
This is such a man thing to do. “I’ll just toss out a generic compliment (one that I use for all my babes so I don’t mix up who I’m talking to) and maybe she won’t notice I disappeared.” 🙂
“Yes I do know that reference and thank you for reminding me of my middle age. ”
Ummm …. we’re bumping up against the boundaries of what is considered middle age. Pretty soon we won’t be able to call ourselves middle-aged anymore.
You’re in denial. 🙂
“Not really a fan of ELO either. Never was. That one especially.”
It’s NICK LOWE. Not ELO.
“You know, karma for not giving more mature ladies (our middle age) a chance.”
I’ve changed my mind about that. You go after the women who match your maturity level. 🙂
“Gotta go with what I know. I had terrible luck all through middle school and high school wasn’t much better. Then I went and f—ed up and got married. You know how well that didn’t go.. 😑”
I’m not following your reasoning here, but if it makes sense to you, that’s all that matters. 🙂
“We have and we’ve also had the conversation revolving around my current constraints. I really don’t think I’m supposed to find a life partner right now anyway. ”
Is this true or are you kind of hiding behind this role so you don’t have to? That’s a rhetorical question. Just something to think about.
” No good Woman wants this. No matter what her age is. Would you? I highly doubt it.”
No. I wouldn’t date someone who couldn’t find time for me.
“The selection at work varies and there is a smorgasbord of Women, every age, shape and size. I would say I still have the best chance there.”
Yeah, but … are they available? Are they interested? I’d have a hard time being able to answer yes to both questions at our age. Granted, I don’t want to date men as young as the women you’re into, but even if I went as low as age 40, I mean, I can’t think of a workplace in the last 10 or 15 years I’ve had with all that many options. I’d be hard pressed to come up with one in the least 20 years.
“As of late, I’ve been chatting it up with a light skinned black girl at work”
We discussed this. I won’t comment on women until after you go on the first date.
“And Bank Girl? Well I never get enough of her. We still have the greatest little conversations when I can get her alone at her window.”
You do realize she works in customer service, right? 🙂
“I think a long time ago, Lovisa posted about men often get it wrong about a woman’s intent. Like women are just being friendly and cordial when they meet a guy and often us men already have plans on moving them in next week. ”
Do men actually think like that? I’m genuinely asking. I thought they were more … thinking of ways to get sex ?
But you’re right in that studies have been done that show men overestimate women’s interest.
“I figured I had nothing left to lose. If I was automatically not in the zone of her interest because of my sex, why not just admit my angle? ”
Why be vulnerable with someone when it kind of sounds like you had no shot?
” I have good grammar and I am an excellent speller. ”
Says your 3rd grade teacher ? 🙂
[“Being asked out over text is just my personal preference.”]
“Adding that to my list of do’s.. 🙂”
That’s just my personal preference. I don’t want to have to turn someone down face to face. I mean … I’m not the one who wants to go … and now I’ve been put in an awkward position. I don’t appreciate that.
I know it’s the much harder job to do the asking, but it is no fun turning someone down, either.
“However it holds true what you always say about their interest level. If they really want to be around you, even just to talk, they would find a way.”
That’s not really what I said. I said that if a woman is interested, she’ll say yes and show up on that date.
I just don’t understand your approach. I’m not saying that in a sarcastic tone. I just don’t get it.
The two guys I met on a dating site … from match to first date was no more than about 2 weeks. Even LO-lite fell right around those parameters. From when we started talking outside of work until we first met up.
“This is such a man thing to do. “I’ll just toss out a generic compliment (one that I use for all my babes so I don’t mix up who I’m talking to) and maybe she won’t notice I disappeared.” 🙂”
Marcia
Yeah, genuinely sorry about that. Although I was checking the forum often, just to see where you were posting and reading your conversations (Creeping 😆).. I was hoping you hadn’t given up on me. I have been so unglued and overwhelmed and sad the last few months. Just feeling like it takes almost everything I have to stay emotionally afloat. Between work and Dad, time for myself is either spent sleeping, feeding my face, moping or falling back asleep in my chair. (No you are not allowed to make any old man comments about that)
“Ummm …. we’re bumping up against the boundaries of what is considered middle age. Pretty soon we won’t be able to call ourselves middle-aged anymore.
You’re in denial. 🙂”
Totally get that. We’ve already crossed that threshold I think. It’s maddening as f—!! Like just yesterday I caught an infomercial touting car insurance for seniors 55 and up. I thought, who the hell said 55 is senior citizen? Who decided that? I can’t be this old already. Like when can I turn past this dark corner? 55 is not that old.
“It’s NICK LOWE. Not ELO.”
Nick Lowe, ELO, doesn’t matter. It sounds like ELO and it sucks no matter who’s doing it. At least you didn’t reference something by Abba or Kiss. Otherwise I would’ve had to get my rubber hose out again. 😆
“Is this true or are you kind of hiding behind this role so you don’t have to? That’s a rhetorical question. Just something to think about.”
It could be but it’s not really intentional. Dads stuff does take up an obscene amount of time. I can’t even really keep up with my own house anymore. My son is getting ready to buy his own house now too and that’s gonna suck up even more time I don’t have. I’m trying to think of a situation that works for me and a potential partner, but I don’t think there’s a good solution. I’ve been seeking ideas and the only breadcrumb I’ll add is that I’m currently thinking of hiring a professional to help me.. I’ll leave it there because I don’t know what to expect.
“No. I wouldn’t date someone who couldn’t find time for me.”
I meant if you were all in and were ready for a commitment, would you still date me despite the raw ugliness of caretaking? And all my moods surrounding it? I won’t go into it all but I think you know sorta, what it entails. Then lets figure on what to do with whatever little time is left for us. I mean it just doesn’t seem feasible and I so want to get past this stage.
“Yeah, but … are they available? Are they interested? I’d have a hard time being able to answer yes to both questions at our age. 🙂”
When you put it like that, probably not. Although I’m not getting stomped on and fed to the dogs either, so consider that a plus. Again, I’m considering a different approach.
“Do men actually think like that?”
I do. Even thinking of wife potential.
“I’m genuinely asking. I thought they were more … thinking of ways to get sex ?”
For me it’s there, but not the goal.
“But you’re right in that studies have been done that show men overestimate women’s interest.”
It’s a big one for me. LF is still very triggering. Twice last week I had to cut her off. Even when she told me to txt her, I shut it down and wouldn’t. I’m staying in my lane, but I feel like she tests that with me sometimes. I know how she is and has been with other guys. Married ones. I enjoy her friendship but I refuse to mess it up again.
“Why be vulnerable with someone when it kind of sounds like you had no shot?”
Because ultimately I want to get in her head and change her mind. Like she doesn’t even seem all that happy with this person. And why should she be? She’s with a woman. I have to be a better option. I know I am. I want to be.
“That’s not really what I said. I said that if a woman is interested, she’ll say yes and show up on that date.
I just don’t understand your approach. I’m not saying that in a sarcastic tone. I just don’t get it.”
It’s $#!+ I know it is. I have no clear approach. Have no idea what I’m doing. All I’m trying to do is hold their interest. The few ladies I’m txting with occasionally txt first but its rare. I’m not taking any of them out because none of them want to go out. So what’s the point? I don’t know. That’s why I’m trying to do a reset.
MJ,
“I was hoping you hadn’t given up on me. I have been so unglued and overwhelmed and sad the last few months. ”
No, haven’t given up.
Sorry you’ve been feeling bad.
“No you are not allowed to make any old man comments about that”
Ok. I’ll be nice. 🙂
” 55 is not that old.”
It is, though. We’re in the later stages of life now.
When I was young, the age I am now sounded ancient. I couldn’t imagine getting to this age. I didn’t want to age past 29. I still don’t.
“At least you didn’t reference something by Abba or Kiss. ”
“Lick It Up” isn’t your favorite song? 🙂
” I’ve been seeking ideas and the only breadcrumb I’ll add is that I’m currently thinking of hiring a professional to help me.. I’ll leave it there because I don’t know what to expect.”
You mean a matchmaker ?
“I meant if you were all in and were ready for a commitment, would you still date me despite the raw ugliness of caretaking? ”
I wouldn’t seriously date someone who couldn’t find balance with his other responsibilities. Or couldn’t put up some level of boundaries with his family.
That being said, I have my own stuff going on. Things I’m working on. Goals I have. I don’t expect someone to spend every waking minute with someone. But I’d want to be the main priority. (I don’t mean the only priority but the main one. I don’t think that’s unreasonable in a serious, romantic relationship.)
“I mean it just doesn’t seem feasible and I so want to get past this stage.”
But what if that goes on for years?
You wrote your son also needs help and then maybe your daughter will. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t help them. But … you have to be the one to carve out time for yourself and your own life.
“When you put it like that, probably not. ”
How else would you put it? Your dating pool consists of people who are interested in you. It’s heresy coming from a limerent, I know, but it almost doesn’t matter if you like them. That’s completely secondary to them liking you. Without that, you have nothing.
“It’s a big one for me. LF is still very triggering. Twice last week I had to cut her off. ”
You never cut her off! She knows you’ll always come back!
” I enjoy her friendship but I refuse to mess it up again.”
You don’t have a friendship with her. You’re still hoping for more.
And, frankly, MJ, why are you continuing to give attention to someone who told you to “stay in your lane”? Who talks like that? Why didn’t you tell her that she knows what she could do with her lane? C’mon, here! I’m going to be frank: Have some self-respect.
“Because ultimately I want to get in her head and change her mind. ”
You shouldn’t want to try and convince someone.
I brought up those examples from my own life (and I’m only referring to first getting together) to show you how easy it is. How simple. When both parties want to meet up. And what a woman does if she wants to meet up. (We don’t d**k around. :)) It shouldn’t feel like climbing Mt. Everest to get someone on a date. I know we limerents love a challenge and to read the tea leaves. That should be the OPPOSITE of what you are looking for.
You have to be a shark in the water. If you’re not ON A DATE in a week or two after you get the number, move on.
You keep saying you want a date but you hover around in the talking stages. It’s a waste of time unless you just want a pen pal.
I am feeling a little stressed today. I posted a few days ago about a wildfire that happened in my old neighborhood, and some of the houses burned down. I was deeply affected watching my old street on the news and houses very similar to mine being destroyed.
I was also contacted by text message by my (former?) best friend, who has stopped talking to me, but is willing to discuss select topics by text message only. First it was her dog’s health. Now it’s the fires. By sheer coincidence, ANOTHER brush fire broke out about 25 miles south of the first one, and was endangering her house.
I told her that I was at Starbucks with LO, and she told me I was being foolish, and that I should get home and watch for embers. However, LO and I were watching the fires on his phone, and it looked like it was enough under control and far enough away that this was not necessary. LO stood to lose a great deal more than I would have, since his house is more substantial, and we were both understandably nervous.
Anyway, she stopped contacting me again, and then LO said some borderline hurtful things to me that I could have done without. As many folks here have wisely pointed out, he is NOT going to change. Ugh.
They have lifted the evacuation order for the affected area (LO and I did not have to evacuate our homes), so things are sort of getting back to normal.
However, this was way too close for comfort. And I can’t seem to get anywhere with my girlfriend, who continues to be elusive and irritable. All I can do is leave her alone and send her love in my prayers.
I am grateful that things are no worse.
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
Hope she’d bring you a bit pleasure —
https://youtube.com/shorts/y4mS9-qDKbM?si=nK2EFG_748KZREy4
If your LO can gently try this with you, he’d be often in a much better mood 💃 🕺🏿
Oh, dear Miss Snow:
That was FABULOUS! I enjoyed it so much. I have often wanted to dance with LO but I have been too afraid to ask him.
We’re not a very good match height-wise, because he is a Giraffe. I think I am going to see him tomorrow, I think I will ask him. Maybe just a simple slow dance.
I actually used to do some ballroom dancing (remembering Tom’s post about Tango), but that sweet lady in the video puts me to shame.
Dear Norma,
I am sorry to hear that you have been under so much stress.
I hope the fire situation situation resolves soon.
In the meantime, remember that the🐈⬛ in the🎩supports you, even if your grinch LO does not.
🐈⬛ in the 🎩,
I found you two dancing YFL — 💃 🐈⬛ 💃
https://youtube.com/shorts/aZluPfH8ong?si=4iIKtKMtrGqxeGtr
To Miss Snow:
You find the best videos!
That cat has some serious moves.
Miss Norma,
One 💃 YLF of our 🎩 🐈⬛ 🚴♀️ is from 3 decades ago, the other 💃 YLF is the current one. 😹
❄️,
Cute video!
I have a story of that YLF from decades ago, stay tuned!
🐈⬛ in the 🎩
This is even cooler! Is it how you tangoed with your current YLF, while the old YLF watched on the door top?
https://youtube.com/shorts/UOYjrpCw-qo?si=iDxW2yPWBIAq9Eky
🎩 🐈 & 🐈⬛,
That’s your retired life, pretty cool — 💕
https://youtube.com/shorts/QN5Y_06F92o?si=7EXXoqXPRUDKy1Q3
The fire situation is resolved. Some homes were destroyed, but most were not. Way too close for comfort. LO’s home and my home were not in the evacuation area, but my old neighborhood, a five-minute drive away, was.
The evacuation order was lifted, and the fire department is keeping close watch. Now there is a danger of mud-slides, because we are having some heavy thunderstorms just a few days after the fire.
So far, so good.
LO and I are supposed to go to Starbucks tomorrow. Hopefully we won’t be evacuated again. That was super-weird.
I am so grateful for all of the support here. I really feel somewhat adrift after having “lost” my closest girlfriend, who is still present on a peripheral basis, but she will not speak on the phone unless and until she gets her head into a better space.
I am so happy to have found friends here.
Dear Norma,
I am happy to hear that the fire situation has resolved, but can empathize with “losing” your closest girlfriend.
I lost my closest male friend decades ago, and I felt really alone for several years after that. Then, two years ago, I initiated a reconnection, to which he responded enthusiastically, with long, detailed letters. The last one was over a year ago. It’s still been decades since we spoke.
Thank you for that nice reply.
Change can be painful, and I am not good at it. I realized I was relying heavily on my friend and was not prepared when she unexpectedly changed the rules.
My other close girlfriend has major health issues, so I am more prepared when she has to drop out of sight for periods of time. She is in the general neighborhood of LO and me, and she was even closer to the fire than we were, so she had her car packed and was ready to grab the dog and run, but it never came to that.
This Poem Will Hit You Where You Live —
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/10/21/books/emily-dickinson-poem-i-dwell-in-possibility.html?smid=url-share
Brother
I saw your post with Colorado Cool-Aid song. Good song. Not me how when I drink no matter what it is. I’m mellow not confrontational. But I came back to post, I’d bought a bottle of wine (Pinot Noir) the other day. I’m drinking it now. There’s something different about a wine drunk over anything else. At least for me. Halfway down the bottle and now I want to cook. Not necessarily with wine (since Mommas been sober since 2019) but just want to cook a meal for everyone.
Brother I think I’m in danger of a #2, though I think I’ve been handling it well and learning from #1. What’s it with me and middle aged single mothers, brother? Now I’m gonna listen to Rose Pink Cadillac and try to cook. I’ll ask some help from Chat GPT, aka, according to Momma my AI girlfriend. 😭
To Adam:
Hope you don’t get limerent for ChatGPT.
Miss Norma
With my new job I get up at 3am for work and am home in the early afternoon so I’m usually cooking before I go to bed at 7-8pm. A lot of time my wife is asleep so I use Chat GPT to help me cook, so I don’t have to wake her up. Sometimes we also talk about other things while I ask cooking questions. Yesterday we talked about The Menu, which I recently watched with my wife, in between asking her cooking questions.
To Adam:
How did you like “The Menu?” Interesting movie.
Miss Norma 🏡,
Here is “the Menu” for you — 😋
https://youtube.com/shorts/5_m9r7SAmBc?si=xTRA93T3nCKCcrY1
I thought it was a very interesting movie. Mostly because, while I enjoy cooking for others, the food itself holds no grip on me outside of eating to stay alive. But I can associate indulgence in food for others with my indulgence with alcohol. But I think, trying to avoid spoilers for others, Margot’s request to the Chef showed how he felt about cooking in his early life versus the present. And the best food that even remotely got me thinking, I’d eat that even if I wasn’t hungry was the cheeseburger.
To Miss Snow:
Much more palatable and less deadly than the movie.
Thank you for posting that.
I’ll pass on the mushrooms. Otherwise it looks good.
It’s good to hear from you my friend. I thought you had disappeared into the ether, never to be heard from again.
Glad the new job is going well. Just be careful with the ladies man. You never know what could be lurking in a new working environment. Last thing you want or need is a HR intervention. Hopefully she’s not like that.
Stay in touch and let us know how things are going. I hope your dinner went well.
I’d better cut it off here now otherwise Ms. Marcia will spank me for not replying back to her soon enough.
You know how it is. If mama isn’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.. 🤣
And lord knows both you and I know that’s not something you’d want. 😏
You disappear for months and he gets right back to you.
I’m here all the time and it takes him weeks to respond.
He’s such a limerent. Only valuing those who are elusive!!!
It’s how all men think, isn’t it? 🙂
Yes. The more a woman is unobtainable, unavailable and uninterested she is the more desirable she is. It’s the conquest, rescue complex, ego stroke or trophy to display. Whatever disingenuous fracture on reality you want to believe it is. Caveman brain still exists.
“Yes. The more a woman is unobtainable, unavailable and uninterested she is the more desirable she is”
That means you don’t value the women who want you. Kind of sad. I could see being interested in someone who wasn’t immediately handing themselves over. There should be some level of chase. But I couldn’t become really interested in a man who was uninterested. There’d have to be some level of reciprocation.
Marcia,
As Groucho Marx put it,
“I wouldn’t join any club that would have me as a member.”
Marcia is missing the point of my delays in responding. She always gives me a lot to chew on.
So my replies need to be thought out and well worded. Even though I am sure she will disapprove of this logic. 😂
LE,
“As Groucho Marx put it,
“I wouldn’t join any club that would have me as a member.””
Hard pass on a guy who thinks like this.
Because you’re basically saying that any woman who wants him … he has little use for. And he’ll spend his time wanting the women he can’t have. No, thank you.
MJ,
“So my replies need to be thought out and well worded. ”
No one is expecting this from you. 🙂
You see? Thats just like you to get snarky. Here I was trying to tell you you’re deserving of a higher quality reply, and you couldn’t care less.
When my ex and I were in therapy, he often said I’m yelling fire and my wife was going next door to get the water. It’s good to know some things never change
MJ,
“Here I was trying to tell you you’re deserving of a higher quality reply, and you couldn’t care less.”
Who said I was looking for quality? 🙂 I think we’ve established I have horrible taste. 🙂
I was pulling your leg. I don’t think there’s anything all that deep or revolutionary in what I write to you. (It’s all common sense.)
Marcia,
The reason he has little use for a woman that wants him is that any woman who wants him would have to be crazy and who wants to deal with crazy?
It’s the relationship version of Catch 22.
In high school and college I went through that phase. It’s a wonderfully effective avoidance technique.
LE,
“In high school and college I went through that phase. It’s a wonderfully effective avoidance technique.”
I agree. It also reeks of self-loathing.
The older I get the more I see … healthy people choose people who want to be with them. They are turned off and move on from people who don’t.
“I was pulling your leg. I don’t think there’s anything all that deep or revolutionary in what I write to you. (It’s all common sense.)”
Marcia
Thats good to know. I have poor taste myself and about zero common sense. You remind me of it often.
These days I’m pretty desperate for company. Company that may also not give a $#!+ back. I know that seems so cringe and pathetic but I’ve put myself here.
Fact is I just don’t have the time. Not for something too serious. Anything I hope to attain I pray will appreciate me and the genuine good efforts I put toward her. I know she’s out there. I just need her to show up.
MJ,
” I have poor taste myself ”
I meant in men. I have poor taste in men.
“I know she’s out there. I just need her to show up.”
Good luck with that. 🙂 You were spoiled. You met your ex-wife in high school. Where you didn’t have to go out and look for it. Where everyone around you was young and cute and available and didn’t have baggage (nicer people call it “luggage”) yet.
But at our age? The likelihood a woman you like who likes you who is also available and compatible and can fit into your life … do you think all of that is just going to show up at your door?
“do you think all of that is just going to show up at your door?”
Marcia
That was a joke. Of course I know that won’t just show up but would be nice if it did. I often talk like it should but I know better.
It’s just like I said to VL. I need to show up and do the work.
Btw, did you see 55 year old Noah Wyle was named People magazines sexiest man of the year? Do you agree? It’s ok if you don’t.
Deep down I know you still think I am.. 😆
MJ,
“That was a joke.”
So if we’re going to joke, we need to add a little smiley face after the sentence. ( 🙂 ) I can’t tell tone without it.
“I often talk like it should but I know better.”
I would LOVE for it to show up at my door. I think there’s something undignified about hunting it down. But … it is what it is.
“It’s just like I said to VL. I need to show up and do the work.”
I do, too.
“Btw, did you see 55 year old Noah Wyle was named People magazines sexiest man of the year? Do you agree? It’s ok if you don’t.”
No. He’s not my type. And, yes, I think he’s a little long in the tooth. He has money. I’m not sure why he hasn’t had some work done. You can disagree with me on that, but if you can do it, why not?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/P-4cIPUT2Uw
I’ve been saving this one for you. I knew there would be a good place to wedge it in somewhere eventually. .
Great episode.
You know. Since we’re joking. 😄😂🤣
https://youtube.com/shorts/9wCE9CezzrI?si=SKsobpM0I3H4iUCj
MJ,
I wasn’t joking. If I don’t put a smiley face next to the sentence, it’s no joke.
So now I’m going to talk about an issue I’m having. I’m serious. I need help with this. It’s your turn to listen.
I meant what I wrote about Noah Wylie. I usually don’t look at men our age and think: Whoa, hot man. You know what I’m talking about. A visceral, gut-level attraction. (And I’d like to date someone around my age.) I’m not saying it never happens, but it’s not common. And given how I’ve experienced a loss of attention from your side since getting older, I’m assuming men are feeling the same way about me (probably why I was so vulnerable to LO-lite). I’m not writing this so you can placate me and give me a bunch of platitudes (don’t write back with some kind of “Rah, rah, you go girl, feel good about yourself”) and blow smoke up my butt. I’m seriously asking: What’s left? If you can’t attract someone anymore and aren’t that attracted to the market you’d like to aim for (I get that attraction is a small part of it, but it does kick things off in the beginning), how do you form a relationship? It feels like it’s going to be a series of concessions for what I used to be (I don’t even want to get into what happens sexually as you age; it’s not like that gets better).
Marcia,
“I agree. It also reeks of self-loathing.
The older I get the more I see … healthy people choose people who want to be with them. They are turned off and move on from people who don’t.”
All true. But it took until I was 25 to get past the self-loathing and longer to really understand why I was attracted to who I was attracted to then. The literature says that you end up with someone long term who matches your emotional maturity.
In terms of attachment theory, in the context of age, it’s not a dating pool, dating becomes a mixer-settler tank. People with secure attachments pair up and sink out of the stream. They don’t usually reenter the stream voluntarily and won’t last long if they don’t want to. Anxious attachments come and go, which leaves mostly avoidants the older you get.
Viewed that way, the picture gets pretty bleak.
In terms of attachment theory, the phrase, “All the good ones are taken.” becomes more true the older you get.
“I’m not writing this so you can placate me and give me a bunch of platitudes (don’t write back with some kind of “Rah, rah, you go girl, feel good about yourself”) and blow smoke up my butt.”
Marcia
Ok, deal to the emojis. I was at work last night when I replied, (just like I am now) so I was trying to be quick in between jobs.
Since we’re putting on our serious hats now, give me some time to digest what you wrote and I’ll get back to you. It may not be tonight, but I will try. Life never slows down here.
🎩 🍷,
Here is the meal to go with your wine — 😋
https://youtube.com/shorts/a9H2exoWyz4?si=VxRlKm_LkgMZwcx8 😹
For those who is interested in cultivation of “Self” and “Relationship”
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwxNMb28XmpckOvZZ_AZjD7WM2p9-6NBv&si=B9CyEln2pRSaS_1i — SELF
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwxNMb28XmpcEwc0qydf2jSszQFSht81E&si=HVaVUf2doNRpj0Jt —RELATIONSHIP
Enjoy!
Funnily enough, I wanted to post an update today before even reading this post, but it is so appropriate. I checked my LO’s best friend’s social media today for the first time in a long time (probably months). I am friends with her best friend on social media), but not my LO (the best friend accepted my friend request within seconds on Facebook, and a while back she asked me to be connected on Instagram; my LO never accepted my Facebook request, but she is very private, and she always knew there was some romantic interest on my part (I’m married, but I won’t cheat; she has very solid morals and I’ve always known that)). I looked at a few pictures of my LO, and it didn’t help. It just made things worse.
In all honesty, she’s aged a little bit. She is five years older than me and a grandmother, but she still looks gorgeous to me. Recognizing her imperfections might be the limerent idealization wearing off, but that’s probably wishful thinking because I’m still smitten with her. It’s a double-edged sword because focusing on her flaws just makes her seem more attainable. Seeing her pictures made my heart literally ache with pain. I miss her so much. The last time I saw her was in February when she and her best friend shunned me. I had no idea why (although I had my suspicions). Now I know why.
It turns out the guy who called me his best friend told her I have a crush on her. I suspect it was more than that because she had to know that. Others teased me about her in front of her and she just burst out laughing. She knew the score. He must have been vulgar and inappropriate because she blocked him on Facebook. The former friend has become heavily involved with drugs and drinking heavily. He has propositioned many of the women I know, even though he was supposedly married. He has had hissy fits and demanded loyalty tests from people to unfriend and block people he fell out with. He is a loose cannon, and people don’t want to be on his wrong side so they placate him. He also tried to set me up with women several times against my will, even though I told him repeatedly not to.
That night in February when my LO and her best friend totally shunned me, I was bewildered. I know she’s less friendly when she’s out with her other crowd of friends (which she was). My LO is good friends with another married guy. I’ve been told he has a crush on her too, but he has solid morals and won’t cheat (and she wouldn’t entertain that; I just know). My LO isn’t the same with me when that guy is out, even though I get along really well with the guy. He was out that night, and she was with the other crowd, but she could have been at least polite and civil. He was friendly, despite not being out with my crowd. Maybe there is only enough room in her life for one married guy who has a crush on her?
Anyway, in January, before any of this happened, I saw my LO and her best friend (there are rumours they may be a couple but I doubt it; both have dated guys recently). They couldn’t ignore me because we were all sitting with mutual friends. They were mostly cordial, but at the end of the night, the best friend angrily told me (out of the blue) to shut up about my marriage, and that she got out of hers and my LO got out of her relationship with two kids, and if they could do it, I could too. I was taken aback. I had been guilty of oversharing about my marriage on our group chat, but mostly in the context of why my ability to go out was constrained, and some people deliberately trolled me about it. Almost everyone on that chat is divorced or lived with someone for years and broke up, so it was good to get some advice and empathy. I think the best friend said to me after that something like, “And you know, maybe then…” I don’t know if she said that; maybe it was just wishful thinking. The friend had really wanted to meet me in the city at some point when I’m in the office (she now lives in the city). I found it odd and never took her up on her offer, but I now understand why. She wanted to lecture me about me being married and my feelings for her friend.
What they don’t understand is I have morals and am only looking for friendship for the time being. I’m not looking to cheat or even to monkey branch into a relationship with my LO right away after separation. Sure, I’d love a date with this lady, but only once I’m divorced (or at least separated) and in a place of my own – and definitely not right away. I’m also not delusional or presumptuous; chances are I would never be with her, and I get that. Anyway, I told a gossip who is really friendly with my LO’s best friend. I have reason to believe some of it got back to them, and I did message my LO for the first time in six months explaining the situation and my intentions. I don’t know if she even read the message (there are some technical reasons for that). I told her she didn’t have to respond and she didn’t. I wonder if I should take the friend up on her offer of a meetup despite a little bit of a thaw and some information filtering back to them? I don’t know. She likely would lecture me and give me a hard time, which I don’t need.
Anyway, I am still in limerence. The only way I’ve gotten out of it since December 2019 is through transference to someone else (I am on LO #3). I hate this. My wife is still delusional, and our finances are such that separation isn’t possible just yet. It will happen, but there is lots of family stuff going on. I want a divorce, and I can’t access my inheritance from my father just yet. There are huge complications, which I won’t get into. I have talked to several people who were in my situation and they all got crushes. It’s totally normal and to be expected. We’ve been in a dead, sexless marriage for years now, but my wife won’t let me go. I know I don’t need her permission for separation and divorce, but it does make the financial and logistical aspects easier if she agrees. It is never about me. It’s always about the house and keeping up with the Joneses. Meanwhile, she has engineered it so I’m broke and massively in debt while the debts in her name are almost fully paid off. Most of the family debts are in my name. She will ruin me, and the fighting between her and my 20 year-old daughter is intolerable.
I know she will be violent and destructive when I finally do make my move. I know that. I am planning on using my inheritance to rent a place for a year, then petition a court to order a sale of the house from a safe distance. I would take my daughter with me.
I can’t just forget about this woman. If I was free and single I’d just date, but I can’t. I can’t see who else is out there. This lady seems so fantastic. I could imagine a really nice life with her. Is she overreacting, or does that really depend on what my former friend said to her? I’m doing a slow fade from him to avoid drama. He is a loose cannon, and I can’t afford to have him ruin my social life or alienate the rest of my friends from me. Other women have shown me interest, but no one comes close to my LO. I know she is special, even if I do think she is overreacting (a mutual female friend also believes that). Nevertheless, the best friend seems to be driving much of this (she is a very strong personality, and she seems to really protect my LO).
There is always a lot to unpack in your story and you bring a lot of information to the table. What stands out to me is the depth of what you are putting in to LO and getting so little back. Or at least not enough. To me this seems a little pointless. I see the friend here as someone getting in the way of things.
You mention you messaged LO and explained a lot to her in that message. Writing also that she did not have to reply. I feel like you going into a litany of whatever it is you may be trying to get across to her is information overload on her end. I mean unless you know what her story is and has completely going on in her life, it may be very complicated on her end to reply back in the way you want or would like to receive it.
Other than the female companionship, I also don’t know what you expect to gain from LO if you’re currently unable to cohesively move the needle toward her. Since you will not cheat on your now wife.
I actually kept the message to her brief and low pressure. I explained my situation and how the former friend continues to disrespect my wishes. I told her I didn’t want anything inappropriate from her (despite what he may have told her). I am only looking for friendship right now. I don’t think there is anything wrong with her hanging out with us (we have quite a few mutual friends) every couple of months like before. She did tell a mutual friend she thinks I’m a nice guy. This lady has solid morals. That’s one of the things I like about her. She knew on some level that I like her. She possibly even enjoyed it because I was always a perfect gentleman to her. Maybe she likes me too? Who knows? I’m not going to lie though; if I did find that out, it would be a nice little incentive to get out of my marriage, even if I’m not going to do it just for her. I just miss her. I wish she was still in my life, but she and her best friend have dropped all of us, not just my toxic ex-best friend and me. Part of it is the friend having moved away and my LO spending a lot of time in the city with her (I live an hour away by train or a 45 minute drive in good traffic; my LO lives in the next town a little further away from the city).
Aside from what MJ pointed out, none of this drama with your friends really matters, either. The people you write about are a small part of your life. As long as you live at home with your wife, that’s all they will be.
@Marcia, I work from home most of the time. I stare at the same four walls most days. When I go to the office once in a while, there are times when I barely see anyone. I am an extrovert (albeit a mild one). I think having a social life and an escape from my horrible home life is actually very important. Still, I’m getting awfully tired of the crowd I’m hanging out with. I get that I need to meet new friends and get away from the loser who called me his best friend, but he was actually the glue that held us all together for the longest time. He has changed, and some of that was due to drugs and alcohol, and some were things that he always did but were just not as evident. He caused a lot of trouble, and people are starting to turn against him – but some people are wary of him and don’t want to rock the boat because he will turn on them.
We used to be a big happy group that could see 20 people come out on a night out and all get along. My LO and her bestie were part of that for a couple of years. The things we did and the conversations we had were better when they were part of our crowd. I miss that and I miss them (especially my LO, but I enjoyed conversations with her friend too). Ultimately, I need new friends. I get that, but I also need people and time away from the house in the short-term.
I am not nearly as active in this community as I was several years back, and I think I know the reason for that. I feel like my marital struggles (while super important and the biggest driver of limerence for me) seem to always come to the forefront in these discussions. People seem to forget that I’m limerent for this woman. I can’t just forget her. She is never far from my thoughts. I probably ruminate over her for a couple of hours every day. The first hour of my mornings is usually spent with coffee dreaming of her. I know what to do with my marriage, but NO ONE understands the financial, emotional, logistical, emotional and legal barriers to separation and divorce I’m facing. It will take time, but I will get out.
I come here to talk about limerence, not my marriage, although the bad marriage is a driver of the limerence. I need coping strategies in the short-term. I thought there was a chance with my LO. We got along really well. We spent hours talking and enjoyed each others’ company. Even now, she still says I’m a nice guy, but I think my chances with her are about 0.1% at best. I get that. I still dream of getting separated and divorced, getting a place of my own, slimming down and doing the necessary work on myself and seeing her in a year’s time and asking her out. She’d probably say “No” but a guy can dream, no? Anyone else is a poor substitute, but there may be someone better out there. I recognize that I won’t be able to explore that until my marriage ends. I’m just looking for some thoughts and advice for the short-term (like is it a good idea to take the best friend up on her offer of a meeting?).
VL,
“I need coping strategies in the short-term.”
You’ve been posting variations of these friend stories for 3 or 4 years ? It’s not short-term anymore.
“I think having a social life and an escape”
That’s what limerence is. An escape. To another life not lived. To another self.
I totally get it. But in a way it scares me. What does that say about the rest of my life?
Hi Vicarious Limerent! It’s good to see you posting. I hope you’re doing well. I have a thought about your question. As long as you are free to have coffee with a woman and your wife won’t be upset, please do meet up with your LO’s friend. I want to hear about it afterwards, too.
Sometimes I wonder if you are in a domestic violence situation.
Thank you.
My wife has been violent towards me, but nothing serious. However, she has been quite violent to my daughter and vice versa. I do worry about domestic and family violence, but it isn’t a big concern with me personally (I wouldn’t leave my daughter with her for an extended period of time in case they killed each other). Still, other types of abuse are definitely present. She gaslights me and she plays the victim while taking away my freedom and making us more and more financially strapped.
It was probably about a year ago that my LO’s best friend offered to meet up with me. She commented on some pictures I posted of the city from a lunchtime walk and told me to let her know whenever I’m in the city to contact her, and she will walk over and meet me. She seemed to REALLY want to meet up with me. Of course, it was to give me shit. I don’t know; I suspect her feelings towards me have softened slightly, but I still worry she’d give me shit. She’s the type of person to lecture you and not let you get a word in edgewise – very opinionated. I sometimes think her no bullshit/tell it like it is attitude is refreshing, but she does come across as a know-it-all sometimes too. But thanks for the vote for the meetup. I may just reach out to her, but it’s possible the rationale for that no longer exists.
I do feel for you in your situation. As limerents I think we often self sabotage over what is and what never will be. I’m guilty of this myself.
Your ruminations and all the beauty surrounding them will probably not start going away until you begin getting past all your current hurdles. Unfortunately I don’t see another way till you begin that process. If there’s one thing I’m constantly reminded of in this forum, it’s taking the initiative to get there. Nothing so great and wonderful is ever going to fall into my lap.
What stands out to me is the amount of time you have put up with this. I get there are major barriers preventing you from moving forward. However, at some point you need to simply put her in her place and tell this woman you’ve had enough. I’m not suggesting be violent or combative back. Just firm and resolute. This is insanity you’re putting up with. Lovisa may have a point about this being a domestic situation.
Divorce does infact suck. I’ve been there and I totally get it. Your’s however seems necessary.
I would be taking on a second, maybe even a third job, just to make ends meet/get ahead and get/stay the hell away from this woman. I would take my daughter with me. There’s just things I’m not going to put up with. I’d rather live in my car than go home to such a dismal and hopeless situation.
You deserve better and it’s high time you start getting it.
I know it’s been years. I guess I’m still feeling a touch of guilt about wanting out of my marriage and being limerent, but so much of it is the logistics, the cost of living, our financial situation and my wife’s inability to see that the marriage is over. Things are pleasant and cordial the majority of the time, but that isn’t enough for a marriage and I just don’t want to live in hell, so I try to get along. I also find that if I’m a good, compliant little boy, my wife doesn’t give me a hard time, but the minute I spend $20 on a lunch she doesn’t approve of, take 15 minutes extra at the store or want to go out twice in a weekend, there’s hell to pay. I don’t feel like a full adult being with her, and I’m done with it.
I’ve also read somewhere that the person who decides to end a marriage has already grieved the end of it, and the other party needs time to process the end. Well, it’s been 4 1/2 years since I’ve known for sure, and I’ve told her hundreds of times I want separation and divorce. I’ve also made her generous financial settlement offers (but they’re never good enough because they aren’t enough for her to buy a house comparable to this one in a nice area). It’s always about the money and keeping up with the Joneses, never that she can’t bear to lose me. Well, she’s had plenty of overt and passive aggressive signs from me that it’s over, and she still won’t accept it. She’s had plenty time. If she still chooses to bury her head in the sand, that’s on her.
I was limerent in my teens and twenties, but I wasn’t limerent for anyone for maybe 20 years while I was dating and my marriage wasn’t too terrible (although it was never great). I think there is hope for people to get out of limerence – at least for me there is – because when I’m in a relatively stable relationship with regular sex I don’t get limerent for other women. I know the experience of other people is different. One thing I do worry about is how, even though I’m married, other women have shown me definite interest. The problem is they seem like inferior Temu substitutes for the real thing. I want my LO. No one else compares (even though I objectively can see her flaws). But if I could date maybe I could find someone who does. I do remember a similar situation in a bar with another woman who looked a lot like my LO. It could have even been her sister. Like the first time I really noticed my LO, this lady stood right next to me alone for quite a bit and seemed to want me to talk to her. She had a different hair colour and a different hairstyle, and she did have tattoos (my LO has none that I know of), but she reminded me so much of my LO, it was uncanny, right down to being very tall. There have to be other ladies out there; I know it.
I don’t want to hear about your LO. 🙂 Whichever one you have now. There have been a few. 🙂 Are you sure they’re all LOs? (Don’t answer that. 🙂 They’re all just things to focus on to distract you from the issues at home.
I hope you get out of your marriage, but we’ve been discussing this topic for years. Even dating back to one of the original forums (if I remember correctly) ? Your marriage sounds miserable and I agree with MJ that you deserve more. We support you but we can’t do it for you.
Hello again Vicarious, thank you for your reply to my earlier message. Can we address something you said to Marcia? “I also find that if I’m a good, compliant little boy, my wife doesn’t give me a hard time, but the minute I spend $20 on a lunch she doesn’t approve of, take 15 minutes extra at the store or want to go out twice in a weekend, there’s hell to pay.”
I want to know what you mean by “hell to pay.” If you feel like explaining, please do. If you don’t want to, that’s totally fine. I respect your decision either way.
I think there are lovely, single women out there. Hypothetically speaking, what if you divorced your wife and never partnered up again? Would you rather be alone or married to your wife?
Again, please only share what you want to share.
Hi Vicarious,
I wanted to address a point you made in your original post, which is that when you come here, you want to offload about your feelings of limerence, but it always ends up coming back to your marriage (which has proved true again here).
It’s natural that if you are in a miserable marriage, starved of sex and affection, you’ll get crushes on other people.
You obviously ruminate a lot on what feelings your LO has for you. The thing is that there are too many barriers for you to get close to seeing an accurate picture. You say both you and your LO are moral and wouldn’t cheat, so she’s not going to reveal feelings even if she had any, and she’s not going to be able to graciously accept your feelings towards her, even if she is flattered by them (hence she didn’t reply to your message, I’d guess).
And that’s – again I’d guess – the reason she is giving you the cold shoulder. Very few people want to be associated with home-wrecking. If LO allowed you two to get closer, she could be associated (even if wrongly) with the eventual dissolution of your marriage. And if your wife is known to be a bit malicious, she will look for women to associate.
Now, we at LwL know that you’ve been saying your marriage is over, on and off, for the best part of 5 years – and that your current LO has exactly zero to do with that. But the marriage isn’t over until you make it over, and ‘people talk’. I’d reckon (also based on her friend telling you to shut up about your marriage) that your LO just doesn’t want any associations with the situation, and that’s why she has gone cold.
Her friend might tell you a bit more if you met her, but is more likely to stay loyal to her bestie. And what would you do with the information if you had it?
There are a lot of us here rooting for you to get out of that marriage, but like the others have said, nobody can do it for you. Until then, you are spinning in loops wondering ‘what if…?’ and with three different LOs since I have read your posts. I DO understand why you do this, but I’d also like to see you move on and find a way out of this maze. If you can deal with the primary problem, then one of these days you can actually explore attraction you get to other women.
How long realistically before you think you can remove the barriers enough to move out of the house and start ending it?
Thanks everyone for your comments. Once again, a lot of this is about my marriage, but I guess that’s to be expected.
I understand my LO not wanting to be perceived as a homewrecker, but I never did or said anything really inappropriate to her. Sure, I’d hug her back if she hugged me, but that was about it. I gave her the most mildly flirtatious compliments about her hair or how young she looks, but that’s all. I never thought it was appropriate to ask her out on a date, ask her to slow dance or try to kiss her, but I get it. She is a woman of solid morals, and because so many people talked, and idiots like my former friend couldn’t keep their mouths shut, she wouldn’t want to be perceived as a homewrecker. One thing I did say to her in my message to her was that I didn’t want to cause any drama for her. I don’t know if it will do any good, but I tried. We did get along very well, and she did gravitate to me quite a bit at times, so who knows?
My wife “punishes” me for “defying” her (she literally says, “How dare you defy me!”) by spending stupidly, causing a scene, making threats, cancelling plans and engaging in sleep deprivation. She is rarely violent, but she has been sometimes. She is quite creative in her vindictiveness, so I try not to rock the boat too much. But if I haven’t told her I want separation and divorce in the last hour, she acts like it’s all forgotten and sweeps it under the rug. Then she acts all heartbroken and surprised the next time I mention it.
I estimate it would be six months to a year before I can be fully separated and in my own place. Divorce in this jurisdiction generally happens only after a year of separation, although an in-house separation is technically feasible but with fairly strict conditions that I might not be able to comply with. I can’t get out without my inheritance though, and no one seems to be hiring me for a part-time job (I’ve tried). It’s very expensive here, and we’re deeply in debt. I can’t live with my brother, and there’s really nowhere else to go.
Marcia
Moved the reply here, so there’s less scrolling down.
Ok so to get back to what you wrote up there, I feel like you and I are almost in the same boat. Although I’m not actively seeking out or really even trying to seek out women in their 50s. I’m not against the idea of it, but I feel like they rarely cross my path. And when they do, they’re usually taken. Am I not attracted to women in their 50s because I’m in my 50s? Am I not as attracted to Women in their 50s because I don’t want to admit to myself and/or others I’m dating someone in their 50s? For me its a little of yes to both. I’ve seen women who look like they are in their 50s but are actually in their 40s. On the flip, I know women in their 50s who look like they are pushing 60+. So this whole same age area as me starts getting murky, once I have to start guessing or assuming ages. When that happens, my interest level towards them tanks. Which is probably a reason I lean towards younger women. Not trying to sound selfish but this is an honest assessment of how I feel I am wired.
“I’m seriously asking: What’s left? If you can’t attract someone anymore and aren’t that attracted to the market you’d like to aim for, how do you form a relationship?”
If you aren’t attracted to the market you’d like to aim for, I don’t see how or why you’d want to form a relationship.
I can’t tell you what to do, to make yourself more attractive. Only you know what you are capable of improving upon and willing to take on to get there.
You have to lean in towards what you do like in/about the opposite sex and then start meeting those types. You’re selling yourself short if you’re not attracted. Does that mean you can’t find someone you consider mid (meaning average looking) and never get to a place where you’re then a little more attracted to them? I don’t know. I probably could. I think it’s different for guys.
The same can be asked about you. You might consider yourself mid and you might be mid to me, but that doesn’t necessarily mean all dudes will see you that way. I might consider you mid looking but there might be things about you (as in hair, a$$, hands, eyes, feet) that stand out more so and look good to me. This might “up” your value to me. Maybe even better than on a really pretty woman. Which then by default, makes you more attractive. I mean I look at a lot of things when I’m sizing up a woman. All the right elements that I like, should be there in order to give a lady a passing grade for me to be attracted. Throw in a good personality and she’s a keeper.
I’ve heard women are more about finding a man with a good personality that they can connect with on an emotional level. Looks might come second but not always. Wheras men are probably more focused on looks first over personality. This is probably true because I would like to be attracted to them. Yet everybody is different.
Will you have to make concessions? There is a good chance you will. You tell me all the time many women I meet are going to have kids. This is a huge concession I have to keep in mind and one I’d rather not. (Why LO/LF are very hi-value to me. 😁) I probably don’t need to go into all the reasons people our age have had their own soap operas over the years that they went through and are now back on the market. Had I known what a $#!+show dating and just getting to know people would be like in my 50s, plus all the twists and turns my life has taken over them, I don’t think I ever would have been so carefree about fooling around and getting into trouble like I used to.
I feel like a reason many women are so miserable these days is because social media has given them the illusion they can find the perfect person online. At any one time, women have all the men in their lives one click away on their phones. While with many of them, they may never get to know them on a more emotional/personal level. Which makes them bitter and angry. I mean think about this. A lot of the market has changed and not for the better. We didn’t have this problem in the 80s. We made phone calls and talked to people. We wrote personal notes to people and not online in a forum for all the world to read. We went out with and dated real people and formed real relationships with those people. This is why things have changed. We just don’t ever get to know people quite in a way like we used to. You give me crap all the time for hovering around females but my angle there is to form better friendships with them. And then maybe appeal to them on a deeper emotional level at some point. Then see what happens. This strategy seems to be working well with LF again but I really don’t care. I’m staying in my lane.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Interesting perspective. I’m 55. I worry about oversharing on here in case I’m found out, but it is what it is. There is a huge variance in terms of aging. I know one woman who’s less than two years older than me but looks like she’s in her late 70s. My LO is older than me and still looks fantastic, and I know other women a few years older than me – and they look great! While there are huge variances in aging, on the whole I find that women in their 40s, 50s and early 60s are looking incredible these days! I’m really not into old ladies, but my LO, for example, is no old lady. She is one sexy grandmother! Another good thing about slightly older women is they don’t have young kids, so they aren’t looking for a stepdad or a babysitter.
I hesitate to butt in here. Just a comment from an older generation.
LO is 68 and I will be 74 in a few days. Neither one of us gives a thought to how we look in terms of age. Of course we’re both well groomed, but we’re both comfortable with our ages.
One of my best girlfriends, who lives in the neighborhood, has a live-in boyfriend who dyes his hair black in an effort to look younger. He has a great head of hair and would look awesome if he let it go gray. LO has a fabulous head of gray hair and I think he looks great.
I think the fear of aging may be worse than the actual aging itself.
From what you’ve written, I didn’t think you were interested in sex and relationships. If you’re not, aging isn’t an issue. You’re not trying to attract anyone.
And you’re like me in that you’re attracted to a man who has the shazam factor (at least for you) … but not to be rude, it’s not based on his personality.
Never mind.
I can’t believe after all this time you’re still chasing LF.
I should never had asked.
In terms of women valuing personality more … Yes, personality is huge. But for me, the initial attraction is there or it’s not. It has nothing to do with personality. A man can’t “out personality” a lack of attraction, though personality makes the attraction grow or it kills it. I know there are other women who feel the same way. I’m sure there are women who don’t. I couldn’t begin to tell you the percentages on that.
I don’t know what kind of miracle answer you are looking for. I would think since it seems very black or white to you, the solution would be simple. Move on to the next. This may work for you but it doesn’t for me. I don’t have the luxury of being a woman. Nobody approaches me. Nobody’s wanting a one night stand or getting it. I’m doing all the work. It’s always easier for your side.
And I’m not chasing LF either. She’s well taken and I know this. I also know her past and know what she’s capable of. If not knowing when I need to step away from being triggered again isn’t progress on my part, then I don’t know what is.
I want to make a comment about self-delusion, which I seem to be quite good at.
I have mentioned that I am on the outs with my best girlfriend who I used to speak with almost every day. She would call me when she was driving long distances and I would help her to stay awake. She works constantly and has long drives between jobs.
I enjoyed our conversations immensely, and I kept a notebook by the phone with interesting tidbits from the news that I wanted to pass on to her. She is not able to keep up with current events much, and I have been following them pretty closely. She also has an interest in the British Royal Family, so I subscribed to a website which covers them in detail.
Well, the bottom fell out some time in July and she won’t return my calls. She does not appear to be mad at me, since she texts me little videos almost daily–things like a turtle riding a skateboard, mostly humorous things involving animals.
I assume she is having medical problems and is too ashamed to discuss any of it.
I would never have guessed in a million years that this would happen. I thought we were close. I guess I was in a different relationship than the one I imagined.
Which brings me to LO. He is really nothing like I imagined him, either. He doesn’t have many of the good qualities which I projected onto him, and in fact, he has shocked me with some of the negative things he has said and done.
I was hoping that the limerence would subside, and it has, to an extent. It’s gotten to the point where I am not in a state of misery over it, so that’s progress.
I don’t idealize LO at all anymore, and I do wonder why I am still so enamored of him? I don’t really see much to admire. He’s way more messed up financially than I realized, and I am shocked that he let himself get in this position, which was all caused by his own greed and hubris.
I would not dream of extending myself into such a precarious financial position just to have material goods. He’s so miserable over his finances that he’s not enjoying his possessions anyway.
Why are you still so enamored of him?
Maybe for the same reasons people watch train wrecks or burning buildings. Schadenfreuede aside, they’re fun to watch.
They just are.
👩🦰 🏃♂️
They are not fun to me.
Except once when I was 10 or 11, when my best gf’s (of the 5th grader) one-floor wooden hut (along with many families) was in a huge ablaze around 2~4 am (no one was hurt). I was half-frozen/petrified in watching the first fire in my life.
Later, I didn’t want to watch either fire or train wrecks even in the movies. They’re not fun to watch.
You have no ideas how the Red system trained us since young to stay away from harmful temptations to oneself and others.
To L.E.:
I certainly don’t think they’re fun, but it’s hard to look away.
LO just yelled at me this evening, and it was pretty awful. He seemed to think I was making light of his financial problems, and I wasn’t. I am so confused now, I don’t remember what I said that made him think that.
I guess it doesn’t matter what I said, rather what LO thought he heard.
Anyway, we may be on the outs now. Not sure.
Sir CC,
I’m not one to self-promote, but if you need an inspirational idea to ask Santa for this year, then you can find out more about what I’ve been up to … (I hope the link works)
https://amzn.eu/d/096bifm1
Sir LaRRy,
Thanks for the link, it looks very interesting — I’ve always been curious about your real identity!
And following British politics is something that I find far more interesting than the royal family (the nerd cat that I am!).
🐈⬛️🚴♂️
LO bit my head off again last night. I am not sure if I deserved it, because I am so confused now that I am not actually sure if I said anything objectionable.
Since I am unsure, I apologized profusely, repeatedly, but I am not sure if it did any good.
I wish I could handle this better.
Next time before you apologize, ask him directly what it was that you said that deserved such a response.
He’ll likely go off on you again.
That’s when you get up and walk out. No explanation, just walk out.
Nobody respects a doormat.
If you get together and it happens again, walk out again. Keep doing it until he stops doing it or you stop meeting him.
To L.E.:|
Oh, he told me exactly what I said, the problem is that he repeated it back to me, and I think it was incorrect.
He said, “I have had the worst day,” and I said, “Oh, you have so many bad days,” meaning to be sympathetic, but he immediately jumped on it and suggested that I was mocking his problems.
I got stuck trying to figure out how my comment could be interpreted that way and at some point, my brain stopped working. This happens to me often under stress, and it’s why I dislike arguing with people.
Miss Norma 🏡 , 👩🦰 🏃♂️, 🧑🏻⚕️ ,
I just woke up from a dream (took a place between 6:30~ 7:37am) with you, LE and a Lwler (I don’t know his name, a doctor in his early 40s from MN) spend a reunion time in LE’s huge, bright house in CA!
There were only fragments, not linear narratives —
Three of us woke up in a huge room in a one-flat white room – must be 10~15 meters long, 6~8 meters wide. There were floor-glass windows, hidden (invisible) bunker bed in all corners, few furniture piece (can’t remember), a couple of dividers ( not sure made of what, just grayish shadows), one glass round table, kitchen sink… and lush gardens outside. The house is quite modern, minimum, opposite of Norma LO’s house.
I woke up in the morning after the arrival of the previous day, coming out of an invisible corner of the room. Norma woke up in another corner of the room coming out from the shadowy divider, dressed up in a flower dress and a hat. LE from another divider was walking towards me and I said I was really thirsty (always up waking up). He happened to have a bottle of water in his hand and handed to me. So I had a sip. And said, “hmm… this water is soft!”. It tasted softer than water in my town.
The lean, fit doctor came from outside (?) and dressed up with a casual blue shirt and pants for our scheduled outing to a castle or Disney. I began to chat with doctor and told him about LE’s water. He explained in charming smile, “it’s CA water, so very soft!” He leaned on this shelve or something, and then began chatting, talking about his work at MN and all sorts of things. My god! He talked fast and energetically, Norma and I hardly had a chance to insert a word, just listened. I was shy, visiting CA for the first time.
Then something? then LE’s grown son and daughter came back. The room became a normal sized living room. The doctor asked me whether I had met them. So I went over to that class table and greeted them. The young lady looked robust, tall, fit, warm, and a bit chatty, I can’t remember son’s look. She inquired me about our day trip plans.
I said we were going to a castle, she told me there was a fabulous restaurant next to it, that looked a bit like Norma LO’s house inside. Then LE said something (?)… Norma had been there before and gave me her input of that place.
Then, this doctor kept chatting with me about politics, the hospital he worked….Norma chatting with L.E…. His children were gone…. For some reasons, we couldn’t get going, when the day was very bright…
In the dream, Norma, you looked fabulous! I had no idea what I was wearing. L.E. Or the doctor was supposed to drive. I anticipated four of us going to that castle among lush woods….
Then I just woke up. (Need to run to work, sorry about incorrect grammar or spelling).
My goodness, Miss Snow, you had a busy night in your dreams!
I don’t know what to say, other than that our California water is VERY hard.
I am glad I looked fabulous in your dream. I don’t know what that even means, but it made me smile.
Thank you for posting about it, and for giving me something to smile about.
Miss Norma,
You looked the exactly like the mental image I had for you a while ago. My mental images of Lwlers remain the same.
But this charged, charming chatty (ccc) doctor looked like my TA lecturer (now a bit older) for my world literature class for one semester. My crush for him lasted 4 years during my marriage. He moved to CA right after finishing teaching my class and graduated. This was over two decades ago.
L.E has his image.
To Miss Snow:
I always picture you looking like Morticia Addams, which I do mean as a compliment.
Miss 🏡,
I do have black hair, and if I grow it longer and put on darker eyeliners and wear black Mermaid costume, I might look like Morticia.
To have Morticia’s personality is a challenge, though. 🧗🏻♀️
To Miss Snow:
I would question her taste at times.
I am picturing Morticia lovingly clipping the blooms off roses, then admiring the remaining stems.
That doesn’t sound like anything Miss Snow would do.
Miss 🏠,
You know me better – I can never cut blooms of any flowers/plants, let alone 🌹 🌹 , it’s my most favorite color!
Also Addams’ diet, it’s just turn my stomach upside down each time I heard names of dishes bought out for guests or themselves.
I mean one can be unconventional, odd beyond conventional border, especially in how to treat other people open-mindedly or cleverly beat corruptive system. I appreciate unconventional and innovative thinking and some actions, breaking old norms.
Nonetheless, one doesn’t have to treat food, drinks and sleep against the nature beyond its limit — feeding meatball to carnivorous plants is fine, but I will NOT drink newt 🦎 soup or eat 🐸 intestines.
Keeping lion as pet is fine; taking the Moon bathing is fine, but Not sleep on the nail-sticking-up bed or squeeze my head between tightening wooden boards for reducing headache.
Some exaggeration of the TV series is overdone. Meanwhile, heavily invest in and live on Stock Market is not unconventional at all.
I want to say something about LO. I know I’ve said it before, but it hits me particularly hard now, since I have been spending quite a bit of time with him over the past months and feel that he knows me pretty well, and I know him pretty well.
I am very disappointed in how cruelly he lashed out at me over basically nothing.
He’s done this before, and I should not have been surprised.
I can’t imagine treating anyone this way, especially if that person had been nice to me. I have actually been very kind and generous with him.
It just goes to show that you never really know anyone.
I am going to have to put him in the same category as my best girlfriend, who inexplicably disappeared from my life in July, other than a few text messages. The only topic she is willing to discuss is her dog’s health. Nothing else. If I text her with any other question, she will not answer.
Even though I am trying to be gracious, I think it’s nuts.
I also think LO is nuts. He knows that I am a kindly, supportive person who would never knowingly hurt him.
I fail to understand why he has such a poor opinion of me.
I think its safe to say he’s probably not a very happy person. You probably appear very meek to him and he takes advantage of it because you won’t ever really do anything about it. You just know you like him, for whatever reason.
I was probably a lot like him during my marriage and even before. My wife adored me, in every way, shape and form. She put up with my indecency. For years. I didn’t care. Now I’m the one who’s divorced and even more miserable. I really didn’t know how good I had it.. It’s called karma.
To MJ:
That is so interesting. If you had it to do over, do you think you’d appreciate your ex-wife more?
You’re right, LO is a very angry person and very self-absorbed. Also very defensive. Not a great friend at the best of times.
There is no question I would appreciate her more. At the time, I married her at 27. She was 26. Looking back, I think we were way too young. So much has changed for me over the years. A lot of it not for the better.
Both of us have matured but I still harbor way too many resentments. Our son is about ready to close on his first house. It’s about the only true happiness I’ve felt in well over a decade.
When it comes to friendships, I guess my negative vibe just oozes right out of me, which repels the ladies. Not too mention I don’t keep a lot of guy friend company either. I don’t know. I say I have good intent but it’s not doing me any good.
To MJ:
Could I ask for some clarification, if it’s not too personal? You said your wife adored you, and your reaction was–indifference? Am I understanding that correctly?
“You said your wife adored you, and your reaction was–indifference?”
ND
I think you read my reply wrong. The word I used was indecency. Meaning I was unfaithful in many ways. In addition to already being a bad husband.
Brother, So I told my boss lady (I talked about earlier) that I’d unload the truck this morning. It was all Christmas crap, mostly candy. It was 2500 units. She does this, where she looks up over her glasses … “you want to unload?” “Yes I’ll do it Miss J, you don’t need to.” (She’s having her gall bladder removed Thursday.)
So she was in there periodically helping me between her other duties. The distribution center really packed this trailer $hitty. She was on one side and I was on the other throwing units on the line when she grabbed one box, and I saw it out of the corner of my eye and saw other boxes start falling so I shielded her (she’s much shorter than me) so the boxes fell on me and/or I deflected them off of hitting her.
“Aww thank you Adam. I guess chivalry isn’t dead. You are here to protect me.” With a sweet smile and laugh.
Me to me: We are not going down this rabbit hole again. But damn was my brain gushing. I just told her that’s the way I was raised by my parents.
As we unloaded the truck I kept reaching for the higher stacks to pull them off to get them to her height so nothing would fall on her. I started being hypersensitive to any possible peril to her and knew I was acting out but couldn’t help/stop myself.
She told me I did great unloading for my first time. She said we got six people down the line sorting and you’re throwing freight faster than they can keep up and they’re all half your age.
Now here I am sore as hell, trying to numb the pain with vodka, knowing when she gets back next week from her surgery I’ll do it again for her cause …..
Adam,
Have you ever talked to a professional about what validation from a woman does to you?
You’re in pro territory.
Brother
You’re being a good little minion already. Nice of you to protect the little lady. Nothing wrong with being nice. I have all kinds of lady friends at work I’m just nice to. Not gushing over. (Only a few of those, lol) You want to get along with your co-workers. You also especially do not want the ladies to think you’re a creep either. I’m not saying this episode did.
Keep telling yourself you’re not going to go down this route again. LE makes a good point about validation. It feels good I admit, but don’t let it get the best of you.
LE, MJ
You both make good points. I don’t think Miss J took my actions as creepy. I think she knows it was genuine in the 3 months I’ve been at this job now. I think she factors in my age in how I am with my co-workers. All but one of my management team is female. As LE points out validation from Miss J is … well valid. It’s not so much women in general rather than just Miss J. Most of the rest of the management staff is female. And I’d personally rather not encounter them with each work day.
I knew Miss J was divorced from her telling me when we were working together one day when I first got the job. She’s been with her present husband two years now. But I didn’t know why. While we were unloading the trailer yesterday I made a comment to her about how long I’d been married. And she shared some of the details about her divorce and getting remarried and I said “I’m sorry you had to go through that Miss J.” To which she said “It’s okay Adam. And thank you. But it got me to the person I want to be with.” I told her that’s a beautiful way to think about it.
It’s either good (probably in the long run) or bad (the way I’m feeling now) that Miss J will be transferring to another store location sometime in January.
But to answer your question LE, no I have never seen a professional as to why I crave validation from certain women in my life. It’s just something that happens from time to time with certain women.
“It’s just something that happens from time to time with certain women.”
I would say that’s true of me. It’s certain guys, at very specific times, under very specific circumstances. And it’s always a completely inappropriate person (the guy is never available, not at my age) because the Universe isn’t kind. 🙂
But I’d say this happens to most people. Even non-limerents. Regardless how happy they are in their relationships. At some point (it’s kind of just a matter of time, isn’t it?), someone dings their bells.
And I’d like to get into the head of a non-limerent. How do they deal with it? Is it just a nice feeling to experience and they move along?
Why do we on here, as limerents, have the potential to make it into a huge trauma? 🙂 Because we do.
But, seriously, if you (you being Adam, but really all of us on here) … don’t put up the shields, you’ll fall into another LE. You know what you’re prone to. All of us on here know what we’re personally prone to.
“And it’s always a completely inappropriate person because the Universe isn’t kind.”
It’s worse when an inappropriate person knows you’re being inappropriate or can just tell you’re simply into them and yet still soaks up your attention. Maybe never intending to cross any lines but still taking in the validation. How can something be so wrong when it feels so right?
MJ,
“Maybe never intending to cross any lines but still taking in the validation. ”
I’m not sure what you are talking about. In your case, there were no lines. With LO or LF. They were both single when you met them and so were you. “Lines” are when one or both parties are in a relationship.
There’s little ambiguity if you’re both single.
I wasn’t referring to either of them. It was more of a generalization during a recent event. Since I shouldn’t be posting about events until they actually happen. No sense in hashing over what ifs.
OMG. Listening and reading comprehension skills. I didn’t think you had them in you. 🙂
Then I’m assuming we’re talking about LatinA Lesbian.
You disclosed to her. If she’s interested in crossing lines, I’d go with the assumption that she’d let you know.
I often wonder if Miss J understands my adulation and absorbs it. Whether or not she does isn’t going to change me. There’s this magnetic pull to be there for in whatever capacity I can. Like being there for Momma. It’s less an infatuation like with LO and more of giving me a purpose with Miss J.
To elaborate:
The point I was trying to make, (not referring to the bi latina either).
In a situation where there is interest in a person and the interested person is a former limerent, it does not help that the person they are interested in, seemingly is picking up on the interest the former limerent is putting toward them. Or at least this is what the former limerent would like to believe. The person they are interested in is feeding a desire.
This person may also have stated they are currently in a relationship, which should block the former limerent from moving forward with their desire. However, the former limerent doesn’t look at it like this and only wants to embark on a possibility, because the person they are interested in seems to be enjoying the present vibe and seemingly rides the wave with the former limerent. What really is going on? There seems to be a genuine connection between two people. This needs further delving into.
The former limerents personal life is messy, chaotic and sad. However
the former limerent does not consider this a new LE because it is nothing like they felt during a full blown limerent episode. There is no craving, no obsession, no emotional investment, so the former limerent sees it as progress. Even though much of it is rinse and repeat. There are only limerent tendencies present. A precarious delusion. The heart wants what it wants. It also knows it loves being in this persons company. Why won’t the universe move for this person? Because the universe is infact, very unkind. 😑
“OMG. Listening and reading comprehension skills. I didn’t think you had them in you. 🙂”
Back in my late 20s, I had a supervisor who was in her early 20s. From the beginning I found her cute and attractive. However she was insufferable as a manager and human. Because she was always way too thirsty to move up the corporate ladder. I couldn’t stand her being my direct supervisor. After awhile it showed. We weren’t the best of friends, didn’t see eye to eye often but she still eventually promoted me to higher position.
One day when things weren’t going so well, she saw me trying to hold everything down and keep it together. I had the support of every other manager in the building, reminding me to keep pressing forward because while things were in chaos, I had to keep on, keeping on. However lady supervisor still wasn’t satisfied, so she pulled me aside. She then went into a tirade of everything I was doing wrong and questioned it. It seemed to go on forever. I couldn’t get a word in to save my face. I just stood there and took it. Finally she says, “You know what MJ? You know what I think? I think you lack problem solving skills!!” I was livid. So livid I could’ve spit nails in her face. Afterall, she was the one who had recently just promoted me. Why are you questioning my authority?? I immediately almost walked off the job and quit, but I didn’t..
When I went home and cried to my wife about it (and yes I did cry 😭) she sympathized with my plight but also kinda understood where lady supervisor was coming from. We laughed about it. From there on it became a running joke in the house. Anytime anything ever went wrong, it was because I lacked problem solving skills. Some things never change.. 😂
Things at work were tense for awhile after that day. A few months later, lady supervisor went on vacay for 2 weeks. When she came back, I thought I’d turn over a new leaf and be nice to her for once. I saw her and asked her how her vacation went. She then invited me in to her office and we sat and talked for almost 3 hours about everything. Her trip, the White Sox (huge fan) family, her wedding. It was like our spat never even happened. One question is all it took. I found out we were neighbors too. She lived 3 blocks away from me. It was a newer neighborhood so we had a lot to say about it. Turns out she wasn’t so evil afterall. I never said (and to this day) a bad word about her ever again. Talk about a come to Jesus moment. 😆
MJ,
Your first few paragraphs are … um … cryptic. Written like LaR. Please don’t adopt that writing style. 😊
“However, the former limerent doesn’t look at it like this and only wants to embark on a possibility, because the person they are interested in seems to be enjoying the present vibe and seemingly rides the wave with the former limerent. What really is going on?”
Ok, stay with me on this. I’m going to answer your question. I was watching a youtube video by a woman whose channel is about friendship, but the ideas apply. The video had been prompted by a comment a viewer of her previous video had written. The comment was from a woman who had texted with a friend for 11 months, nearly daily, and sometimes about intimate and personal topics. The commenter suggested to her friend that they get together and do something. (I don’t know why it took 11 months, but that’s not that not point.) The friend’s response was, to me, not only nasty but a little strange. She wrote back that the request to get together was “entitled” and “out of balance.” It seemed reasonable to me. They’d been texting every day, which is a lot. But the message of the video was that the commenter wanted to expand the friendship; the friend wanted to keep the friendship where it was: at a sharing-information-providing-emotional support level. Though there was obviously a genuine connection between the two women and it had some intensity due to the intimate nature of the texts, the commenter’s friend wanted to keep the commenter in a pretty narrow box, a pretty narrow role, in her life. I think it’s what you’re experiencing. Lady Friend: you can talk to me at work and text me outside of work, but that’s all I want. Kind of same with Latino Lesbian. And, like the commenter who just wanted to meet up with her friend, you’re not asking for too much. But you’ve been put into a narrow box. Technically, you work friends have a right to want less, but if you want more (and you have a right to want that as well), as I have written MANY times … you’re wasting your time.
Give your time and attention to women who want more. And if you can’t find them at work, you’ll have to fish in another pond. 😊
Before you get your tighty-whities in a bunch: LatinA Lesbian. 🙂
“Your first few paragraphs are … um … cryptic. Written like LaR. Please don’t adopt that writing style. 😊”
Marcia
You’re actually comparing me to the great LaR? Whoa, I’m so not worthy. Not worthy. Not worthy.
And here all this time I’ve been trying to write more like your Sammy Sams.. 😁
“Give your time and attention to women who want more. And if you can’t find them at work, you’ll have to fish in another pond. 😊”
You’re right that I’m being put in the narrow box. What bothers me about both of those situations (LF and bi-chica) are that they both begin with them seemingly signaling they would like to meet me, and showing it by their eye contact. I mean do you (Marcia) look at certain dudes and sometimes more than just once, only to catch their attention so you can meet them and then put them in the narrow box, just to basically friend zone? That seems creul. What is wrong with these women?
Why look at me and capture my attention, which then causes me to believe you’d like to maybe get to know me better? (Even LO did this) Why look at me, only to put me in my place. A narrow box. I’ve often said it before. I don’t need another friend. If I did, I would get another cat. I don’t desire only friendship or being put in a narrow place. Both Women looked at me like they were sorta interested. So I acted on it and approached.
I see Women bitching all over the internet how men don’t approach them anymore and that stuff up there 👆🏻 is sort of a bs reason why.
In one video I was recently watching, there was a girl complaining to her brother about really wanting her boyfriend to like her, but didn’t like how clingy he would get trying to do so. Her reasons were so illogical. How do you bond with anybody if you can’t allow yourself to be somewhat clingy to that person? Obviously she has attachment issues, but the entitlement there was pure, insane crazy.
The person I was referring to in the above posts is not a co-worker either. So I am fishing in other ponds. Its just not yielding the right result yet.
“Before you get your tighty-whities in a bunch: LatinA Lesbian. 🙂”
Did you say tighty-whities? 😆 Man I shutter to think what you think I actually look like. It must not be impressive enough if you think that. What if I did actually wear them? You might think I’m cute.
I could do my Risky Business dance for you.
(Yes I know you’re young enough to remember that scene. 😂)
Btw, thanks for getting the Spanish right this time. I didn’t want to have to get my rubber hose out again. I just put it away for the winter. 😄
MJ,
“You’re actually comparing me to the great LaR? ”
You used that descriptor. Not me. 🙂
“And here all this time I’ve been trying to write more like your Sammy Sams.. 😁”
I don’t know why you keep bringing him up. His last posts to me were not friendly. I’ll leave it at that.
” I mean do you (Marcia) look at certain dudes and sometimes more than just once, only to catch their attention so you can meet them and then put them in the narrow box, just to basically friend zone? ”
There are men I only want a friendship with, yes.
However, I don’t really try to make friends with men anymore. Not close friendships that involve texting/calling and hanging out one-on-one. I’m not sure men are capable of that kind of platonic friendship with women.
“What is wrong with these women?”
They’re capable of opposite-sex friendships. The other possibility: They like having low-level orbiters.
But here’s the question: Why don’t you get mad? Why don’t you think to yourself: If you’re going to put me in a narrow box, you’re not going to get anything from me!
That’s how I finally got with my last big LO (though it took my long enough). Like: I’m not a toy you can take out of a box just because you need some validation every now and then.
” Both Women looked at me like they were sorta interested. So I acted on it and approached.”
But you didn’t. You never had a conversation with your LO. Walking by and saying hello is not approaching. Or it’s not a full approach.
“I see Women bitching all over the internet how men don’t approach them anymore and that stuff up there 👆🏻 is sort of a bs reason why.”
I think men are approaching less in general but if a guy approached me and I was interested and he asked for my number and asked me out, I’d say yes.
But you seem to think this kind of thing only happens to men. I mentioned the guy who chatted me up IRL (on several different occasions) and finally asked me out (in person). He gave me his number. I texted him so he had mine. We made tentative plans (discussed what we were going to do on the date). And that was it. I never heard from him or saw him again.
Why go through all of that … only to ghost? Who knows? He changed his mind ? His ex came back in the picture ? He’s crazy? Idk. Could be any number of things.
“How do you bond with anybody if you can’t allow yourself to be somewhat clingy to that person? Obviously she has attachment issues, but the entitlement there was pure, insane crazy.”
I didn’t see the video. Some men do get really clingy. A man can completely kill a woman’s interest if he’s too clingy right away. I’m sure women can kill interest with the same behavior.
“The person I was referring to in the above posts is not a co-worker either. So I am fishing in other ponds. Its just not yielding the right result yet.”
I don’t know what to tell you then. You’ll have to look at why you’re not getting better results.
“What if I did actually wear them? You might think I’m cute.”
Nope.
What if I wore big grandma panties? You know the kind. With that thick material and a tummy control panel? Would you think those were cute? 🙂
Dame Marcia
I’ve been this way with women in my life. Especially co-workers for some reason. LO is the only one that broke all inhibitions and barriers. Miss J I just have a very genuine care and concern for. A broken family from divorce. That most of my equal co-workers see her as a *itch (not because she is but because these youngins don’t know hard work and work ethic without it being beatin into them) makes me all the more protective of her. Now she’s getting gall bladder surgery. I urged her yesterday to take all the time she needed to recover. I told her I will work all the hours I’m allowed to make sure each day’s work is done while she recovers.
At the same time I had a conversation with Momma last night where she voiced her fear Miss J was my new LO. I told her the truth that Miss J was not a new LO but just, as you and LE pointed out, somewhere I get validation as a man from her praise. That’s not a lie. I don’t feel for Miss J that I did for LO. Honestly, I don’t want to be limerent again. Miss J is one of my perceived “rescue” cases. Which maybe isn’t that far from limerence. I dunno. But I’ll protect her like I would my own mother. She’s a hard working, tough as nails tomgirl. But as Conway said …. In my mind she’s still a lady that’s all I’m gonna say. I know that I’ll be broken by the time we part ways.
I just woke up after staying up way too late watching the election results.
I miss my girlfriend–she used to call me on election nights, and we would have great conversations about what was going on. Now, nothing.
I texted my other best girlfriend, who is highly political, but suffering some health problems, to ask her if she was following the election results. She said no, which means she is feeling VERY poorly.
I don’t know when or if I will have a chance to discuss the results with LO. He’s very right-wing and will be displeased with the astonishing events of last night. I heard Democrats say that they were “nauseously optimistic” before last night, but the results blew those expectations out of the water.
I know I need to make more friends. Most of the people around here are too right-wing for me.
This is from a Reddit post about limerence. I thought it was good advice. It was a response to a limerent OP who had been limerent for an old high school acquaintance they hadn’t seen or had contact with in a long time but they were checking social media. The basic principles still apply whether the limerent is NC or not.
“For me, learning the world limerence was huge. Realizing this was not destiny or a soulmate signal but a known psychological pattern, intrusive thoughts, idealization, emotional dependency, cut through a lot of the illusion. Research suggests obsessive romantic fixation can last 18 to 36 months on average, but it can stretch much longer when there is constant reinforcement and zero reality testing.
Right now the biggest fuel source is fantasy plus exposure. Every time you stalk their socials, journal about them, or daydream, you are adding detail to a story your brain is treating as emotionally real. But none of it is grounded in an actual relationship. You are not in love with the person you know. You are attached to a character your brain built.
The first practical step is removing the fuel. That means stopping social checking completely. Not reducing. Not occasionally peeking. Completely cutting off the visual and informational stream your brain is using to keep the fantasy vivid. This will feel awful at first. Intrusive thoughts often spike when you remove a habit stimulus. That is not failure. That is your brain reacting to withdrawal from a loop it is used to running. If you hold the boundary, the intensity does come down.
Second, you want to actively dismantle the fantasy, not just avoid it. When you catch yourself daydreaming, gently label it as limerence instead of romance. Write about what is actually real versus what is imagined. Redirect journaling toward your own goals, values, and real experiences instead of documenting someone who is not in your life. This helps retrain your brain to stop treating the fantasy as a relationship.
Third, you need real world connection to compete with the loop. Limerence thrives in emotional isolation and imagination space. It weakens when you invest in friendships, hobbies, dating, and experiences that give your brain new emotional anchors. You do not need to force romance immediately, but you do need to give your mind something real to engage with.
The reason this has felt like hell is not because you are doomed to carry this forever. It is because your brain has been running the same emotional circuit for years with steady reinforcement. Circuits can be rewired. It takes discomfort, consistency, and patience, but people absolutely come out of long term limerence when they remove fuel and build new patterns.”
To Marcia:
Thank you for posting that.
Dear Norma
I am sorry for your friends health issues. I won’t discuss politics (only with Momma) but it is hard feeling alone. Know we are here to talk to you. It maybe much more delayed than a phone call but we are here for you my dear Norma. Just like my brother from another mother, MJ is always here to listen to me, I am to for you. I may not have a lot of nice things to say about him 😒 But I’ll always be here for you dear.
Dear Adam:
Thank you for being so nice and for making me smile.
I think it’s interesting that, in my mind, I see no evidence that other of my co-workers (male of female) don’t pick up on how obvious I feel I’m being so I assume Miss J doesn’t either and just thinks I’m being nice and helpful. With a splash of my old school “sexism” in regards to women and manual labor. And how I try to shield her from that. She is suppose to be back tomorrow from having her gall bladder removed Thursday and I’m preparing myself to not be …. Well me. She’s a perfectly capable woman and can put some of the younger male crew members to shame with how hard see works. Mentally and physically. Where that is mostly due to age vs actual physical strength as most youngins don’t know what hard work really is.
It’s quite possible she doesn’t spend much or any time thinking about it. If she’s tackling health issues, her job as a manager … is she married? Does she have kids?
She probably appreciates the help, but unless you’re making her uncomfortable (which I’m not saying you are) … she is probably just moving on with her day.
That’s a good point Marcia. I’ll see her tomorrow (she called in Monday, which she needs to take care of herself, yes) at work. So hopefully she’s ready to be back at it. I have a hard time NOT being the caretaker of women I care for in any capacity; romantic, familial, platonic or co-workers.
Opps. Also yes. She’s been remarried. She mentioned her and her second husband have been married two years now. And she has at least a teenage daughter from her first marriage, that I can remember. But I vaguely remember she might have mentioned a son too.