From time to time I get invited to contribute to a podcast or article about obsessive love, and one of the questions about limerence that is pretty much guaranteed to come up is:
Isn’t that just a crush?
To my regret, I have not yet come up with a concise, clear answer for this.
If you’ve experienced limerence, it’s obvious that it stands out markedly from other romantic attractions. We recognise the appeal and sexiness of many people in the world, but the first time an LO hits us like a freight train, we know that This Is Different. Similarly, once you’ve immersed yourself in reading and thinking about the idea for long enough, you develop a kind of high-level view of how limerence differs from ordinary attraction, but it’s still hard to capture the essence of that difference in a simple way.
When confronted with this question, I find myself talking about the importance of intrusive thoughts, or the involuntary nature of the obsession, or the extent of the emotional highs and lows, and trying to distinguish the severity of these experiences from puppy love or a crush.
Sometimes I get bogged down in the argument about whether a crush becomes limerence when it disrupts your life to such an extent that it degrades wellbeing, or causes psychological distress – but that seems inevitably to lead to the “so it’s a mental illness?” question.
Part of the problem is that limerents and non-limerents make perfectly reasonable assumptions about the nature of romantic attraction, based on their own experiences. If you describe limerence to a limerent, they nod and say “yeah, that’s love.” Describe limerence to a non-limerent and they assume that you’re talking about an adult stuck in adolescent fantasies who needs to grow up.
Dorothy Tennov battled against this issue when she was trying to get more recognition for limerence in the psychological community. Later in her career she argued that limerence was best understood from the perspective of ethology, and argued that resistance from psychologists stemmed from a distaste for personal testimony as an approach to research:
My conclusions seem incapable of being communicated within the presently existing field of psychology, but may be acceptable to the field of human ethology.
What were those difficult to communicate conclusions?
[The two main conclusions] are (1) the state is distinct; it occurs in exactly the same way whenever it occurs across personality and other categories, and (2) it is so unlike any other condition that those who have not experienced it have no experiential base from which to imagine it. Therefore, they tend not to believe in its existence except as romanticism or as pathology.
As I understand Tennov’s argument, it is that limerence is a universal experience once it has set in. All limerents report the same key phenomena: total cognitive capture by the LO, and intense craving for reciprocation to the exclusion of all other concerns. She argued that limerence is a binary state – you are either in limerence or not. There is no continuum of limerent feeling.
Limerence is an either-or-matter. Either the algorithm is operative or it is not. Intensity depends on immediate conditions. Therefore, a “scale” is meaningless. Intensity changes from day to day, even from moment to moment.
This conclusion fits with reports from limerents – that it is a distinct mental state that you feel yourself to be “in”, and that it dominates life so much that it feels all encompassing.
But it has problems too. Linking a binary state to the underlying neuroscience is tricky. Euphoria is a definable mental state, but it subsides fairly quickly, and you would still consider yourself “limerent” even in the moments of calm between LO contact. Similarly, addiction is a definable condition, but it takes time to develop. There isn’t a clean moment where you can state unequivocally that you have flipped from “not addicted” to “addicted”. Once the consequences become undeniable you concede that the behaviour (say, gambling or alcohol abuse) is destructive. Similarly, limerence is something that you recognise as being detrimental after the accumulated psychological stresses outweigh the early excitement.
I think the only way you can square this is if limerence is a state where your baseline neurophysiology has been altered. Your sensitivity to arousal is heightened. Your motivational drive has been amplified. Your motivational salience is focused intensely on the dominant stimulus of LO. In principle, this might be detectable at the level of changes in gene expression and synaptic strength that reinforce particular neural circuits – just as for drug addiction.
Tennov’s insistence that limerence is a universal experience for those that have it is a strong claim. Even in devising a quiz, it became clear from the comments that the scenarios I’d felt were representative of limerence clearly were not universal.
That suggests either that Tennov’s hypothesis is wrong, or that my quiz has too many questions and should be whittled down – perhaps to two. A third alternative is that many people are drawn to the description of limerence, but do have different experiences at some level – perhaps that could be conceptualised as limerence exists as a core neurophysiological phenomenon, but that the behavioural manifestations once “the algorithm is operative” can be more idiosyncratic.
Having worked through all that, I think it’s fair to say that I’ve helped demonstrate that the concept of limerence is difficult to communicate.
Let’s try and get this back on track. I want to be prepared for the next time that I need to explain this to a sceptical journalist. Here’s another useful take from Allie in the comments:
For me, the key difference between a crush and limerence is the mind space it takes up. A crush can exist alongside my life without impacting it much. Limerence stands front and centre in my mind all the time, regardless of what else I am doing, making it hard to live life fully.
I think that’s useful because it captures this idea that it is possible to be strongly attracted to someone (sexually, intellectually and/or emotionally) without being limerent. You can have a crush that adds excitement to life, as distinct from limerence that wholly takes over life. Maybe that’s the key:
Limerence is when a crush has taken over your life. Another person dominates your mind so completely that you feel like you are addicted to them. You swing from incredible highs to exhausting lows and desperate craving. Limerence makes it almost impossible to concentrate on anything other than how much you want them.
Well, I guess that’s progress. A bit pithier. But it could be better.
Let’s refine that raw material in the crucible of the comments…
Can you summarise the difference between limerence and a crush in three sentences or less?
Limerence is all consuming, debilitating and sits front and centre in your mind. A behavioural addiction that much like any other addiction requires abstinence to beat.
Limerence blind sides you and twists your whole sense of self, alters your beliefs and rocks you to your core, leaving you often questioning everything that has come before it.
Like any addiction, no contact seems to be the cure but that doesn’t stop the compulsion to act. Each day has to be a choice. A conscious choice of keeping and maintaining no contact until that long awaited day you don’t realise you are making that choice anymore.
Yes, that’s a good detail, Spadge. How limerence causes you to doubt old convictions and start to rewrite history.
Spadge,
This summary is perfect.
A crush doesn’t destroy you. Limerence can.
“Limerence blind sides you and twists your whole sense of self, alters your beliefs and rocks you to your core, leaving you often questioning everything that has come before it. ”
This is spot-on for me. Limerence had me questioning my (previously strong) value system. That’s never happened before.
And all-consuming as Vincent says further on.
Anneli,
Limerence has made me question the love I’ve felt in the past.
Were my previous relationships love?
Limerence was so incredibly strong, agonizingly painful. I get anxious thinking about how badly off I was.
I don’t want to experience limerence again. However…will I be satisfied with something that’s not limerence?
And I definitely ignored my value system when it came to LO.
This is a such a good question. The relationships I’ve had with LOs have been rollercoasters of joy and pain. If it never happened to me again I would be grateful. However, I got married about 10 years ago and my spouse was never an LO for me. We always had a steady, nice relationship from the beginning. We were family to each other almost immediately. It is a good marriage. But it has none of the hallmarks of limerence, and so I question it all. the. time.
Blue, your post could have been from me! Amazing. How do you cope with the constant doubts and questioning of your good and loving marriage, which happens not to involve limerence? Do you know the blog on ‘relationship anxiety’ by Sheryl Paul? Sometimes it helps me to put this other obsession (“Am I with the right person?”) aside.
thanks for this, I’m still struggling daily and simply want the thoughts of LO to end, I know the rational behind it all but when I wake up in the morning it’s the perpetual humming thoughts begin and they affect my whole disposition. Is there a medication that can help?
Hi Jessie,
There aren’t any medications approved for limerence. Some people who have been prescribed drugs for other conditions (such as OCD or depression) report that it can help with limerence symptoms, but you shouldn’t ever experiment with this sort of thing without medical supervision.
This got me. I went into therapy after my glimmer. I researched everything to find out what was happening to me. Not even my therapist or psychiatrist suggested limerence. It’s not a recognized treatable disorder. I landed on PTSD with symptoms of OCD and trauma bonding. Anyway im on Zoloft now and it does help with the symptoms. But nothing can treat you for the desire and dependence of your LO. Once your in it its a black hole you never fully get out of. You may get to the edge but it can always pull you back in.
My limerent turned into one
I’m permanently altered from the experience
We are trying 5 months of no contact
Wish us well
Edit: My limerent turned me into one
Hey I have seen to reduce caffeine intake. Also I find my brain feels better when I eat solid protein. There are natural antidepressant supplements or also adaptenogenic herbs. Example sam-e or rhodiola. Look into alternatives to balance the brain. Also yoga and meditation and breathwork
I am a teacher and I fell for a student. He was not underage, was a mature student but a lot younger than me. I became obsessed as he was different from the others, attentive and seemed to like me too. We texted each other outside college. I was his personal tutor and it all became too much. He came to my house and we met for drinks, but I always felt not good enough. I feel he was using me for high grades, nothing ever happened between us but it went on in my mind for over four years. I spent thousands on psychics and kept his photographs. I feel stupid about it now. He is getting married next summer and I still get a pang. It is a horrible, horrible feeling and I am so ashamed.
Hi Zoella, and welcome. I think you have touched on something important in that many of us feel ashamed of our limerence in a way that we typically don’t feel ashamed about crushes. That shows again how out of proportion the emotional disruption of limerence is.
That said, I don’t think we should feel ashamed – limerence is just a part of who we are. And, maintaining integrity through the storm is admirable, even if we end up embarrassing ourselves over the depth of the infatuation.
Please, never be ashamed. Limerence is your heart seeking the love it never got growing up. Yes, it’s intense and crazy and that love you feel for your LO actually creates the perfect LO in some mysterious unconscious way. I wish you only the best with this.
Hi Dr. L,
Funnily I think there is a very good parallel with a recognised condition. ADHD.
I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and the diagnosis was truly life altering. It helped me understand my past behaviours and experiences and my day-day quality of life improved with medication in ways that are difficult to explain to people who don’t have this experience.
But there are ADHD skeptics in the world.
“You’re just messy. Some people are messy.”
“You’re always late because you live in your own bubble, and that’s lovely, you’re a free spirit.”
“You’re unreliable because you just don’t give a sh*t about anybody but yourself.”
“Oh? ADHD? God yeah! I’m soooooo ADHD! My car/flat/office desk’s a right state! I think everybody is a little bit ADHD you know?”
…and of course as a teacher I heard… “I want my child tested for ADHD because I’m not happy with their grades.” (in effect)
A bit like limerence people told me that actually there wasn’t anything particularly unusual in my behaviours. Some people are messy because they are unperturbed by it. Some people are genuinely just very elastic with timekeeping and free spirited. Some people are very disorganized at work… and some people want ritalin for its own sake, or seek to pathologise normal experience.
So how did you argue… yes, but MY messiness is different? My lateness is not like hers or theirs? My disorganization is worse than his… not even comparable because it follows my every thought? Ritalin didn’t just help me study, it has helped me eat sensibly, look after my home and at times even wash regularly.
But also, I’m not going to moan about some other people with ADHD. A friend of mine was telling people in a pub that a big thing for her was she hated boring work, and doing spreadsheets. This is another issue, its how we use language. Surely by definition we all hate boring work… and some people spreadsheets. That’s not ADHD. ADHD is your brain utterly refusing to cooperate with urgent but boring tasks. Tax, data entry, bills etc. For me it’s feeling physically repulsed from sitting near tasks you want to avoid, staying on your feet, looking away, watching TV… often with oppressive guilt.
‘I hate boring work.’ Does the whole thing a disservice… and perpetuates skepticism. ‘You don’t have to like it, but you have to do it.’ Is the obvious answer.
I realise this has all been very personal, and actually about ADHD more than limerence. But it goes to show how difficult it is to get a point across… and as with limerence, learning about ADHD late in life reassured me:
I wasn’t late because I was lazy.
I wasn’t messy and happy that way.
I wasn’t unreliable because I didn’t care.
Because once I had a hope of success, once I had medication and support I changed. Who knew tidying a room isn’t a fiendishly complicated as all that after all?
Sorry this wasn’t about limerence. But it was about skepticism.
Thomas,
I’d be interested in what you think of https://sharischreiber.com/inside-attention-deficit-disorder/. I like Schreiber but I’m not in a position to know if she’s right about this.
My son has been struggling with depression and anxiety since he was diagnosed as a Type I diabetic almost 10 years ago. We know his chemical plant is off but neither the psychiatrists or endocrinologists can say definitively say how. One has ideas that seemed to help. Some of his psychiatrists and therapists said he’s ADD and others said he’s not. They tried him on some ADD meds but they made him worse. The article describes some of his behavior pretty accurately.
Hey Scharn,
I’ve already seen that link… it’s a pretty exhaustive list, but I’d say it’s a fair representation. For me, (like limerence) the litmus test is, does he feel genuinely powerless over his feelings or behaviour? I remember realising that when I made commitments, the weird thing was I stopped fully knowing whether I’d meet them or not, it felt like there was something I couldn’t do anything about. But try telling that to your spouse… ‘I’m happy to get xyz done by this date. But I honestly have no clue whether I will, its not fully in my control.’ That was the annoying thing… people automatically assume that behaviour is always a matter of choice. Or rational. It’s like telling a limerent ‘She doesn’t love you. She’s married. She’s not returned your calls for four months. You’re dating another lovely woman now. It’s just time you let this go!’ We know how well that works! 😀
The annoying thing about ADHD is pinning it down (in the UK we have the one term ADHD, but describe ADDers as being inattentive types vs. hyperactive types). Inattentive ADHD in boys especially because the stereotype of a boy with the disorder is a kid bouncing off the walls. Likewise girls are underrepresented in the hyperactive category but this may be partly because boisterous behaviour is discouraged more consistently and firmly in girls from a younger age. Equally, the two do seem to exist on a spectrum, and as hyperactive ADHDers get older many lose a lot of the external hyperactive behaviours which they internalise becoming more inattentive. Again societal expectations might have a role in this.
A negative or worsening on medication is not uncommon. I had that experience. The psychiatrist ‘titrates’ you. This means trying various brands and strengths of medication. The most common in the US (I believe) are amphetamines (i.e. Adderall), but in the UK the first choice is a drug called methylphenidate (Ritalin). Both work on the dopamine system in bits of the brain that control executive function. My first trialled meds helped in all areas… but kept me awake all night, the second actually felt like illegal drugs and exacerbated my distractions, it was bizarre… the third brand helped and I worked up to a dose that minimises symptoms and I can sleep. I think if ritalin hadn’t worked they’d have tried something like adderall. But there is a third class of meds – some anti-anxiety medications have been shown to be of benefit. In the UK atomoxatine is licensed for ADHD. ADHD is often a co-morbidity, it joins in with other issues. If your boy is struggling with anxiety, and if they tried him on stimulants that may have been a bad combination. The other issue is that some anti-depressants don’t mix with ADHD meds. A friend of mine was given ADHD meds, but had to change his anti-depressant regime to accommodate that which really messed his head up. In cases like that I believe atomoxatine is the recommended solution…
So. A bad reaction to meds of a particular class or brand doesn’t discount the possibility of ADHD. The variation in how one person can react is… unpredictable. But at the same time, some of the characteristics of ADHD can appear with chronic depression which I learned only recently. I don’t know why it is the case, but I was talking to a psychiatrist (socially this time!) and he was telling me how difficult it can be to pin ADHD down and how chronic inattentiveness and disorganization can also result from depression. Of course, this can become a circular argument because (especially in adults) a lifetime of being treated like you are a flake who cannot be relied upon by family or employers and gently patronised for being sweet but a bit useless by friends or partners can certainly warp your self image into something pretty mean.
I’m sorry about your son but depression and its cousin anxiety are still vastly misunderstood by the medical community. So many underlining factors.. some biological, some situational. The beast just resurfaces, unfortunately. I highly recommend Sara Wilson’s book ‘let’s make the beast beautiful’, relatively recent publishing and it has resonated greatly within the anxious/depressed types who follow the author
Thanks, Thomas. I think this is a really good analogy. Even if the neuroscience isn’t the same, the point being that everyone has some experience of difficulty with focus and orderliness, and so that means that some sectors of society are sceptical of ADHD as a distinct phenomenon.
And, it is certainly the same issue of explaining why this messiness is different from other messiness, or how inattention is different from the impossibility of concentrating.
Thanks Thomas, this is a great parallel. My daughter has ADHD (inattentive type). In her case it was in fact the schoolwork that made us sit up and pay attention, alongside her telling us that she feels she’s just not like other people. When we started looking into what could be causing both her school issues and her feelings, we realised the signs had been there ever since she was tiny. She’s on Ritalin for school days and the difference it has made is tremendous – and we can always tell when she hasn’t taken it. But her teacher was convinced that she was “just bad at maths” despite also telling us that she’s constantly distracted. Fortunately our doctor is excellent and got the teacher to fill out all the questionnaires anyway.
@Scharnhorst I was also worried about the meds. We were given low-dose Ritalin drops and told to start with three at breakfast and three at lunch, and increase every couple of days until side-effects develop, and then drop back to the previous dose at which there were none. It wears off by bedtime, which is perfect. But I know it’s not the same for everyone, I hope you can find something that helps your son. I’m sure you are aware that there is also a lot of overlap between symptoms of AD(H)D and Aspergers.
Incidentally the link you shared has quite a few dodgy assertions in it. I’ve not read anything about ADD being caused by falling downstairs in any of the proper research by actual scientists or medical professionals. A lot of children at age 3 fall, just like a lot of children at age 2 get the MMR vaccine – the first doesn’t cause ADHD any more than the second causes autism. I would suggest https://www.additudemag.com/ as a better source of information.
Oops! I didn’t get to the bit about falling over!
It’s a very long article!
Actually. I think there is a correlation. Adhd/neurodivergence can have a very all or nothing take on hyperfixations, which can also be targeted towards a person. When I first found this article I was shocked that there wasn’t a distinct connection made. It just adds up too much for the experiences I’ve had in the past.
As an undiagnosed adult with ADHD, I would like to comment on hyperfixation. I thought I had a crush, no I am limerent, no I am hyperfixated… Or aspects of all three. My experience with a non diagnosis has lead me to read and research way beyond the rabbit hole. This article, and your comment, have lead me to comprehend, I just have a hyperfixated crush.
Welcome Arthena,
You are struggling with an obsession. I have an obsessive personality, too. Sometimes it serves me and sometimes it doesn’t. You aren’t going to change. It might help to periodically check in with yourself…
What am I obsessed with lately?
Is it helpful?
Should I keep that obsession or change course?
Good luck!
I’ve been thinking about the role of obsession in my life a lot lately as well. I definitely have an obsessive personality as well, and I realize that I’m pretty much always obsessed with something. I’ll get really into a project at work and that’s all I think about for a few months (which has led to some great successes at times – I’ll get praise like “wow it’s like you did the work of 3 people”). Then I’ll get really into a new sport and that’s all I think about. Then I’ll join a political campaign and I’m working on it non-stop. Then a few months later all I want to read about and study is the stock market and options trading. Then a different new sport. There is always something that is consuming my thoughts, and it’s pretty much always one thing at a time, and they typically last a few months before being supplanted by something else. I mean, I have hobbies and activities that I engage in long term, but there’s always one thing that consumes my thoughts when I’m not doing anything else. Most of these obsessions range from useful to harmless, but of course when the obsession is for a woman who is not my SO, then the problems start.
Lovisa, interesting to hear you say “you aren’t going to change”. From your experience and reading, is that true for all people with obsessive personalities? I actually have my first session scheduled with a new psychologist on Friday and one of the things I wanted to ask him about was whether it was possible to change my way of thinking so that I stop bouncing from obsession to obsession and live a calmer, more balanced life in general. Maybe that’s an impossible goal, and it’s better to focus on being able to choose my obsessions rather than let them choose me?
Great question, Lost in Space. In my experience, the object of obsession changes, but the behavior doesn’t. I cycle back to previous obsessions, too. There is always something. I don’t know why. When I was a teenager, I was diagnosed with OCD. As an adult, my diagnosis was changed to ADHD. I am a busy body who loves to be deeply engaged in something interesting. I’m only mellow when I am worn out. I don’t foresee that the underlying obsessive behavior will ever change. But I could be wrong. I’m not a professional in the field. I look forward to hearing what you learn in your journey in therapy. The ADHD therapy that I have experienced has been for executive functioning techniques and encouragement to use exercise instead of medication as a method to manage ADHD. But I have nothing against medication. I don’t use it now, but I have in the past. I hope that helps.
*typo – I WAS moaning about how some people with ADHD simplify it for their audience to ‘hating boring tasks’.
There’s a discussion of how to make this distinction in the comments to https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/#comments
Going a little tangential:
In it, another poster uses the term “coup de foudre:”
“The common French idiomatic expression le coup de foudre, pronounced coo d(eu) foodr(eu), is a common weather term for extreme mauvais temps (“bad weather”): a bolt or flash of lightning, or a thunderbolt. But, as you might expect, since French is the language of love, le coup de foudre also has a figurative meaning that is well known to French-speaking natives: “love at first sight,” which delivers a kind of shock, too. The figurative meaning is a bit more common in French.” – https://www.thoughtco.com/coup-de-foudre-1371171
I love the term. French is good, but I think Italian is better. Way more romantic songs are written in Italian. Although, “Je t’aime,” and “Ti amo.” both have nice rings to them.
Not all LEs have the sudden shock element to them. None of mine did.
Though on limerence,
I think the issue is that most of us come to the concept retrospectively. I bet 99% of people here found out about limerence only once things began to fall apart. Once the madness began to bite. That’s when you start googling ‘lovesick’, and ‘heartache’, and ‘obsessive’, and ‘how to get over someone’. Which leads to mentions and pages on limerence.
But because of that, not many of us were paying attention AT the time to how the first phase felt. Because after all, we were just enjoying what seemed like a beautiful and healthy attraction to somebody we recognised as utterly sublime. That isn’t weird at all, when you meet somebody whose just soooo great to be around. It needs no interrogation. Nobody is googling ‘Why do I fancy this gorgeous person?’ So really that’s what we need to think about. Becoming attuned and learning to describe what THAT part feels like. Because we’re well practiced in describing the misery!
I think though that from memory it is the reciprocation. It is so needed, and so intoxicating. In non limerent dynamics getting your potential spouse to like you is a route to getting together. But in limerence getting that approval is the objective in and of itself. You feed off their reciprocation, it is actually all you need. The fantasies are bigger and bolder. Even a walk in the part isn’t just entertaining or engrossing or intimate (as it may be with any date)… it is remembered as magical. I saw photos of LO recently by accident in crystal palace… and my heart wanted to burst, he looked so perfect… then for two days after I was saddened and privately sore. I don’t get that from pictures of non-limerent exes, not even my ex-husband who I’ll always remember as a really good person who I loved. But again… when I see a pic of LO, the response is really just spontaneous and instinctive… irrational, intense and inappropriate to the reality of his complete rejection of me. (I’ve been rejected and dumped before without this occurring. But endings with other LOs have always been like this).
Anyways… I’m off… after lots of input! Haha!
Totally agree, again, Thomas. It’s only after limerence becomes a problem that most of us realise there’s something important and significant going on in that initial phase of euphoria after the glimmer that isn’t about their magnificence, but is actually about us.
The thing is, I had enough presence of mind to google my insane state quite early on, and I found “limerence” and read about it. These days this site comes up first on a google search, but it didn’t a couple of years ago. But I didn’t care to read too far in any case as my LO didn’t hold back, and the universe (according to LO) had obviously destined us to be together… I think I was too far gone for anyone’s advice to make a difference by then. This site has been invaluable for my later recovery, though. Sanity now restored.
Interesting. I haven’t had any crushing lows from my Limerence. I googled it because as I am married I felt guilty that my brain self pacifies itself all the time in this obsessive way whenever I feel down or a unengaged in a task. At first this would be in endless replays of LO interactions but now (since very Low contact) it is in a fantasy way. It is odd for my brain to waste so much energy when I actually have a very happy balanced life. I keep feeling I might of kicked the habit but then i see him or he contacts us and it sneaks back in. The thing is limerence helps lull me to sleep and clear stresses from the day but I’m totally fine (even relieved) that it’ll never happen in reality. I worry that I will depreciate the value of what I have because i’m caught up in this. For me the glimmer is a crush and it moves past that only because of some level of reciprocation but with barriers that prevent any formal declaration. When I read of people’s depressions on this site I wonder if limerence is what I have or just some kind of pathological daydreaming.
Really relate to you both Levin and Daydreamer.
While my feelings built slowly over a year and half, my realisation of them was instantaneous and I was thrown into my LE almost overnight. I was very much euphoric yet I could see the danger clearly. I was googling how to get over infatuation within 2 weeks as I wanted to feel normal again and to regain some control over my mind.
I’ve had only a few lows during my LE and none were truly soul crushing (so far at least).. pathological day dreaming is good description.
This is how I feel, maybe because it’s been 3 years. It’s how like when your pants don’t fit. You’re constantly aware of the issue but when you’re busy you can forget for a while
“Because after all, we were just enjoying what seemed like a beautiful and healthy attraction to somebody we recognised as utterly sublime. That isn’t weird at all, when you meet somebody whose just soooo great to be around. It needs no interrogation.”
@Thomas. I appreciate what you’ve written here, and it does chime with my own experience. A glorious attraction (that makes us feel great initially) to someone apparently sublime – no, we’re not going to question that. Not until it goes off-course.
I love that you brought up ADHD. There’s a joke that limerence isn’t Attention Deficit Disorder, but AFFECTION deficit disorder. (Because we crave positive feedback from LO). I’m not sure if I read that here or on some other forum???
Limerence is something I only discovered retrospectively, like you, and I think there’s a certain amount shame involved in that discovery too. Looking back, I see many instances of LO treating me in a neutral way or a negative way, and yet my mind conveniently blocking out the evidence, and only focusing on “positive” content.
For example, once I turned up at LO’s church and LO saw me and complimented my outfit and then disappeared. My brain should have registered that as a neutral interaction. But I was happy because I saw LO again. (I wasn’t stalking LO, I swear. My mother actually dragged me to that service – American guest speaker).
I think there’s a lot of desire to keep a LE hush-hush. Why is this? Well, limerence made me superstitious for one thing. I didn’t want to jinx it by talking about it. Also, a part of me must have been subconsciously afraid that if I spoke of LE to friends/family, someone would point out the inappropriateness/futility of the attachment and tell me to move on. I wasn’t ready for a “reality check”.
My dad saw nothing special in my LO, and his contemptuous attitude hurt me a lot. LO was magical to me, but he wasn’t magical to my dad. My dad didn’t even think LO’s marriage would last more than a few years.
Sometimes schoolfriends did notice the weird way LO and I interacted. For example, once I looked meaningfully at LO and he looked back at me in the same way, and a female classmate noticed this exchange of looks and good-naturedly wanted to know what was “going on”. But neither LO nor I could tell her.
Another time, a male friend wanted to know why LO bought me and not others in our group a Christmas present. Again, LO and I didn’t have any ready answers. We were flirting with each other and not flirting with each other. Totally weird.
If I’m brutally honest, I never enjoyed the LE after, say, the first six months. I threw away presents and gifts from him almost as soon as they arrived. I was desperately afraid that one day LO’s fountain of love would “dry up” and I should prepare myself for that day. And of course that day did arrive eventually. It’s a shame, though, I could never enjoy the interaction between the two of us as an innocent friendship. The feelings of insecurity became unbearable over time, feeling like I wasn’t good enough to be his friend, etc.
If I can elaborate on own comments, I think I’ve just had a strange moment of insight.
I’ve just realised that my dad might have resented my LO because LO basically displaced my dad in my affections, despite the fact it was obviously my father and not my LO who made so many sacrifices for me growing up. If anyone deserved my love and gratitude at that point in my life, it was my father and not some brash young newcomer.
That is to say, teenagers often go through a phase where they’re disenchanted with their parents. I must have subtly communicated to my dad that he was a failure in my eyes and LO was his glowing replacement. LO was “the better man”, in other words. (Impossible, of course, since LO was barely more than a boy himself and hadn’t faced any real life challenges yet). I’ve never thought of Dad as being jealous of LO before.
I always assumed any tension generated by my LE must be attributable to homophobia on my family’s part. Now I see that if my family disliked/resented my LO, it was because he was cheerfully soaking up all the attention and affection I used to give my family. My family felt as if they were no longer receiving my love. In effect, I had emotionally abandoned my family to moon over LO.
For a lot of people, I think, limerence creates conflict between LO and SO. For me, limerence created conflict between LO and my family of origin.
My family was possibly jealous of my LO and the love I (quite unreasonably) lavished on him. I thought my dysfunctional family drove me into the arms of LO. They were cold, uncaring, selfish, etc, etc. But what if the reverse was true? What if my ridiculous “passion” for LO generated bad feelings in the loved ones I was so eager to leave behind because they were somehow “inadequate”?
Also, I’m thinking LOs as a group might get a bad rap because they receive so much unfair “special treatment” from none other than us limerents! 🙂
No Thomas, you’re not off at all. You are 100% dead on! I stumbled here after googling everything you said and people saying I was in love but I knew it wasn’t that. But it feels to intense and strange but I know or knew I wasn’t in love. I stumbled across this word and had to google it which brought me here. I think this just saved my mental capacity. It was never reciprocated , I just needed that validation more than anything else. Even my husband asked when was he starting his new job because he could sense the change and intensity I couldn’t hide. I have NEVER experienced this in my entire life of dating and nor do I want to again. It’s a form of insanity- that you can not control. If it wasn’t for his new job offer I can guarantee with no hesitation, I would have ruined my life. I read way more into it than it ever was. Now it was a noticeable crush on his part but I still do not understand where , how or why the obsession on my end began. And as you stated , THAT is the issue with limerance. Before you realized you jumped off the cliff but you were just admiring the view. I hope to God I never have this again. Happily , he initiated space and my ego won’t allow me chase with no reciprocation so it’s dying. But as someone mentioned, it still lingers and may forever.
I think the difference between a crush and limerence is the impact the person has on you. With my crush, there was a definite nervous energy, and it was a charge to be around him, but I could still be somewhat myself, still show a semblance of my personality. But in the early days of the LE, I could barely form a sentence around my LO. He was like a fiend in a horror movie — I was dying to see, sitting on pins and needles to see if he would show up, and when he did, part of me wanted to run. He made me so nervous. Exhilarated and terrified at the same time. I was actually doing google searches for articles so I’d have things to talk about with him, but when he was right in front of me, I couldn’t remember any of the topics. There were days I forced myself to go find him at work, disgusted with my inability to talk to him. “Ok,” I’d say to myself, “today were are going to have a conversation.” You cannot explain this to a non-limerent or someone who has always picked partners based on how comfortable they are around them.
“Part of me wanted to run…”
YES! 😀
Ditto on all of that. You are so desperate to see them and then when you do, the emotional overload has you backing away in panic and humiliation as fast as you can… aargh.
But (how embarrassing)…
For me I feel like the fear was like… awe?
I still have in my minds eye meeting LO for a drink outside Kentish Town tube, and feeling both dazzled and a bit dowdy in his presence. Cue a stream of awkward chatter and banter, and jokes. Jokes! He sometimes interpreted my behaviour as ‘needy’… possibly what he was kind enough not to mention was it may also have occasionally slipped into looking a bit desperate. (This was after we’d agreed to be friends and every encounter I was consumed by the hope that we might sleep together again…)
Thomas,
“For me I feel like the fear was like… awe?”
Yes, definitively awe. I think, since I was a teenager, I have associated fear and being turned on. I’m not sure why. I’ve always been a bit afraid of my LOs … like it was getting too close to the sun. 🙂
We should hit the singles bars together Marcia.
What a pair! 😄
Thomas,
“We should hit the singles bars together Marcia. What a pair! ”
I’m actually pretty good at talking to and flirting with me, as long as I’m not interested. But if I am, I become somebody else, which I do NOT recommend. 🙂 I think that’s because, if you aren’t interested, you are relaxed and don’t care about the outcome, which actually seems to attract other people. There’s an irony there. 🙂
I wonder if this is what I’ve been feeling. I’m married 13 years and aside from a few small hiccups have a very good marriage. I’ve noticed a pattern within myself of intense physical desire and need toward my husband and when it’s fulfilled and reciprocated on his part I feel satisfied. If not then my feelings and fear of perceived rejection consume me. I can be fickle.
Fast forward to now, I got hired along with another yoga teacher at a studio. He is my age, 39, and is very attractive. Now usually I am not at all attracted to other men. Grateful for the attraction my husband has toward me and used to rejection, I am soaking this up even though clearly this other guy has no interest in me. Maybe from lack of self worth? It’s a weird feeling. I want this guy Chad to notice me, look at me with lust during class, and fantasize about me. I do things to get his attention.. it’s sick.. anytime in my head I feel like he notices me I go crazy inside.. but for exqmple, he didn’t take my class after I took his and I was crushed. I often fantasize about him telling me I’m beautiful, hot, and showing an interest in me on an intellectual/friend level as well and wanting to spend time with me and make me feel desired and worth listening to. But in no way do I feel interested in a romantic relationship, or any feelings of love. But I obsess over these thought I have. Does this sound like limerance?
I could have written this, down to the name Chad! Except he was my therapist and my real need for therapy had suddenly resolved (family member’s illness and care stress ended when family member recovered). Same fantasies, but not really looking for a fling or to “be with him” (we’re both married). This was my first encounter with the term, and your description sounds like my experience (I would message him, sometimes he would respond, sometimes not – and I would just be crushed imagining the 1000 reasons why he was through with me!). The experience has been very interesting and brought out a lot of writing from me to move through.
Elissa, I can really relate to you. I feel the same way about my gym instructor and I have been married for four years and have been with my partner for 16 years in total. The only desire I have for this guy is that I want him to like me, to pay attention to me and to have feelings for me, I have no interest in having a romantic relationship with him, but I can’t stop thinking about him. I even have doubts that I am really sexually attracted to him. I find it easy to fantasize about romantic moments of affection and even kisses and him saying nice things to me but I really find difficult to fantasize about sex with him which makes me doubt if there is sexual attraction, but what is clear is that I really desire reciprocity. I find him a very nice person, and I admire him, he has qualities I usually like in other people. The fact that I love the sport I practice in his classes it is important too and I think that it helped me to fall down in this LE. Now I feel completely stuck because I don’t want to stop attending his classes and I try to make the most of my time with him (only the classes) because I know that it will end at some point, for example in summer with holidays and other schedules. My fight now is to convert the intrusive thoughts in something more volunteer, and try to not overthinking about him, some days I succeed and others no.
My connection to the LO who changed my entire outlook on life was highly emotional, spiritual, and energetically powerful, but every time we tried to have sex, I wasn’t into it. It’s like, he was so elevated that his more human bumbling male body was embarassing to experience and I wasn’t at all sexually attracted. That being said, kissing him was like riding on a cloud over the moon so there were moments of sexual arousal, but the more human act just weirded me out. It made me feel very confused because I thought he was the love of my life so I didn’t know why it was off.
Another big theme of the obsession was constantly “seeing signs” that related to him. I felt like we had this spiritual connection and we were meant for each other.
Initially we spent 3 months together in a situationship without committing to a relationship, and I eventually ended it because I was confused by the lack of sexual attraction and thought it was due to being a lesbian. Well, fast forward, I met another man in a different country and started a relationship with him for 2 years living abroad. As that relationship was falling apart, I got onto social media and started watching Youtube videos (hes a musician) of the guy (original guy, LO) and started to look for signs that he was singing those songs about me. I started to truly believe that he was sending me signals that he was still in love with me and had never truly gotten over me. It got me so high to imagine that I was the one who got away and that he had all this pent up emotion for me and he was writing songs about me (As time wore on, I found out that he in fact had written by him that he had written a few songs about me which made me feel like we were living our lives as country star lovers, reincarnated in this earth-time on some level-and in actually, we had played music together in the first 3 months).
I reached out to him after Facebook stalking him and we started talking again. I eventually moved back to my hometown where he lived, having spent 3 months obsessing over whether I should come back to him, feeling highs when I’d watch his music, and devastating lows at the idea of us not being together.
In reality, he wanted to be with me in a relationship and I would have episodes of feeling like I wanted to come back to him but then the episodes would dwindle and I’d come back to reality and question myself. Finally when I did move back and try to start it up with him for real, I inappropriately got drunk and expressed all my secret feelings for him trying to convince him and me that we should start a relationship (though he was keen to the idea of us being in a relationship, he did have some doubts as to whether I truly wanted it-which were valid). Then we went to the bedroom and once again, it was like the spell was broken and I wasn’t into him in his “human” form, off the pedestal of blissful magical perfect angel man that I had him on.
Well, this led to him feeling hurt by me and ultimately cutting me off, not wanting to continue trying to be in a relationship due to my certainty and then uncertainty and issues with sexual attraction.
It’s honestly the most painful let down because I acted like a total fool and hurt him, someone who I care about and considered a true friend.
What’s hard to understand is that for him, it wasn’t limerance. For me it was. So why couldn’t I just be in a relationship with him like a normal person?? It wasn’t a matter of unrequited love…but it was like, my wiser self didn’t want to be with him…my limerant self did.
But yes, it’s almost like the high of it wasn’t about being in a relationship, it was about him reciprocating his “great love” for me and me reading into all the things he posted on social media and all his songs, trying to find those moments where I was sure that I could read him well enough to know that he was pining for me like I was for him. I felt like we were in a spiritual relationship and that it was ultimate love, higher than most “normal” people could experience. But then when he was willing to try, the sexual issue arose and I felt like I was punched in the face back to the impossibility of it working out…punched back into reality out of my fantasy.
Finding this information about limerance is so helpful but it definitely sucks that it’s come to this point to learn about it along with how my childhood neglect plays a big part in this feeling being perpetuated.
It’s still hard for me to not consider it a great love…because being around him, looking into his eyes, and laughing at his jokes felt like the greatest moments of my entire life, despite, like others said, feeling shy, boxed in, sweaty, and like I couldn’t be my full self. Yet I felt that our energetic connection made me feel super happy and seen and known. But at the same time, I was always scared I wasn’t enough for him because he was too mature and wise for me.
But ultimately it wasn’t him as a human being whole that I loved or wanted to experience life with and my limerant flare ups caused him pain repeatedly. At this point, I feel that he is wise to cut me off because my little inner child would keep doing this over and over again just for a fix.
Thanks for reading, this is extremely cathartic which I need after feeling like the biggest f*ck up after hurting him.
I’ve come around more and more to the idea of limerence as strictly neuro-chemical in nature. Well, maybe not strictly, but it’s difficult to separate mind/body/spirit etc. For instance, from an article on limerence:
“Responding to cues from the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland releases norepinephrine, dopamine, phenylethylamine (a natural amphetamine), estrogen and testosterone.”
As opposed to love/crush hormones such as oxytocin, dopamine, and serotonin.
There’s an overlap of course, but the other aspect that has intrigued me is the OCD/ADHD/addiction connection. All of this MUST be related! However I have a tendency to think that science can explain pretty much everything, even the “magic” of romantic love, unfortunately.
p.s. having said this, nothing about knowing this relationship really helps alleviate the searing emotional pain of limerence.
I’d come across that article before, Limerent lady. I think it’s written by a medic, but there are at least five errors in that single sentence in terms of neuroscience.
Seriously – just do a google search on the pituitary. It doesn’t release any of those listed neurotransmitters or hormones.
It’s a problem of pop psychology that claims get made without citation and passed around until they become received wisdom.
That’s interesting! What are the neuro-chemical aspects of limerence as you understand it? I’m somewhat obsessed with finding commonalities with other ‘disorders’ for lack of a better word. Although disordered is definitely how I would describe my limerent brain. For instance, is there an OCD/ADHD/addiction link? I do believe anxiety disorders and addiction are linked, and limerence seems to exhibit similarities with addictive behavior. At least it does for me. But I’m curious what you’ve discovered through your research.
You can have multiple crushes at the same time, you can put thoughts of your crush into the background and get on with everyday life. Crushes go as quickly as they arrive.
Limerence is all consuming. LO is the first thing you think of when you wake, the last thing you think of before you sleep, and occupies the majority of waking thoughts in between. You can only have one LO at a time, and everything you do is to get closer to them in some way. It takes a long time and immense effort to get over them.
@Vincent,
That resonates with me. Also, when I think of a crush I think of the way I might become flushed when the person comes into my presence. I might feel a bit coy, but actually I’m pretty confident at flirting etc. For the most part. With limerence that feeling about the LO is in the background all the time, and I’m anticipating encounters, mentally rehearsing for them, or rehashing past encounters, maybe for private pleasure or to make sense of what I should do. In fact… as I write this –
Limerence triggers me to make things happen, to initiate contact and be as involved with LO as possible when it’s good, or cling on desperately when its slipping… all the while not fully knowing why.
A crush is an intensely pleasurable sense of arousal and interest triggered by the presence of that person – but not actively pursued.
Another thing. I’d gossip about my crush with others. My limerent fantasies are much more private and feel like vulnerabilities due to their inappropriate intensity.
E.g. a crush is telling your mates you bumped into that gorgeous person in the supermarket and had a bit of a moment. There my be chuckling and titillation.
Limerence is NOT telling your mates you woke up and the first thing on your mind was LO, like yesterday and the day before and the day before that and on and on… and that you’re currently a bit distracted by the thought of them because actually you nearly always are… and it’s either a source of bliss, or a source of deep, private grief.
Limerence is an intense crush that you shouldn’t have, and once you realize you shouldn’t have it, it feels impossible to turn it off. It can completely disrupt an otherwise happy and normal life. Even though you may realize the LO is the source of that disruption, you still crave them, seek them out, do everything you can to maximize your contact with them, whether physical presence or in your own mind, even while you see your life going down in flames in the process.
I think that was three sentences.
Yes, and they are three very ACCURATE sentences… I think the worst part is that the only pain greater than being all-consumed by the person is the thought of never having contact with them again. It is a lose-lose situation. And even though intellectually I’m completely aware that some day I will not even think about this person at all, that fact does nothing to help me right now.
I think someone posted recently about how when you start to emerge from the LE, you don’t even realize you aren’t thinking about LO as much anymore. That’s very true. Although I totally understand the abject sadness of the thought that someday LO will not be a part of your life (believe me, I do), eventually you will get to the point where you don’t even realize you’re not thinking about them or that you may never hear from them again. It sounds sad now, but trust me, it’s so liberating. You will get there.
Yes, which is why I added that while I’m “completely aware that some day I will not even think about this person at all, that fact does nothing to help me right now.” I’ve had multiple LEs in my life, and they always end, and I genuinely never think about them again. But waiting it out is excruciating (as everyone here knows haha). I think what also adds to the pain is the helplessness of it- I do not feel like I have any control whatsoever. I guess I just need to bite the bullet and take the goddamn deprogramming course already!!
Hi B.!!
I can relate to what you have said here. I have been in limerence for almost two years now and it does slowly dwindle. A part of me will always love him but the logical part of me now knows having any future with him is unattainable and impossible. He will always be what my version of a real man and true gentleman really is but that’s all he can ever be-just an example of a decent man. I am in the grieving stage right now as my realization of never having a future with him is hitting me hard. It is a form grief. Death of a dream, a wish, a miracle, a want, a need. Limerence and TF (Twin Flames) are two completely different things. A LO is also not a soulmate. When I found out my LO was married and saw him with his wife, I quickly realized just how much they are meant for each other. After seeing them together, I contemplated suicide but over time I brought myself out of it. I suffer from depression now bc of all this but one must carry on. Limerence is soul-sucking and cruel and I don’t wish it on anyone. It serves no purpose but to fvck you up emotionally, mentally, physically and yes, even spiritually. Good luck to all who suffer from this hideous obsession.
Dr. L quotes Tennov:
‘…the state [of limerence] is distinct; it occurs in exactly the same way whenever it occurs across personality and other categories…’
I also think this is really significant. There is such diversity in expressions of sexual-romantic interest… and once relationships form they show a lot of variety. I can find common ground with people when we talk about our experiences. I can share some perspectives and people relate to some things I might comment on in my own relationships. But finding this site was really something else. Limerence is a very specific range of experience, and reading other people’s testimonies here was mind blowing.
It wasn’t ‘I can understand why or how you (commenter) feel like that, something similar happened to me and I felt very similar…’ so much as ‘Oh my God. That IS MY feeling you’re writing down. That is exactly what I am feeling/was feeling/have felt.’
The important part being that I know many of my friends have never had SOME of these feelings. Yet I find this site and suddenly it’s all there, comment after comment of limerents expressing themselves and other limerents responding yes, yes, yes, that is how we all have experienced our LEs. There are margins of error, Scharn commented today on it not hitting out of the blue as it does for some, I tend to need a couple of meetings and some mutual interest… others hanker silently.
So maybe we enter an LE by distinct routes… but once your in – the emotional experience is so much more limited in variety compared to ‘normal’ love.
Just thoughts.
Thomas,
“The important part being that I know many of my friends have never had SOME of these feelings.”
Yeah, I agree with you. There are friends who I’ve talked to about limerence exactly one time — because their response was, frankly, cold, dismissive and overly analytical to the point where it sometimes made me see the them in a whole new light, and not necessarily a good one. A slight amount of understanding would have been fantastic. Bar that, a hint of empathy. What I was describing was so foreign to their experience; they thought it sounded crazy.
I only talk to other people about it if I know they are also limerents. They are really the only ones who understand. Sometimes if I talk to a former addict, they also get it somewhat because the language, behaviors and feelings are similar. But I still frame it differently. With “regular” friends, there are only so many times I can come to them about the same shit over and over again before they, and I, get sick of me!! So I might complain that I’m feeling sad or down about a “crush that I can’t have” but I don’t sob with them like I want to.
Limerent Lady,
“But I still frame it differently. With “regular” friends, there are only so many times I can come to them about the same shit over and over again before they, and I, get sick of me!! ”
Well, I wouldn’t have gone on and on about it. It was part of a larger conversation about a lot of things. I wouldn’t necessarily have brought it up every time we spoke, either. But it would be like any other recurring topic. I’m looking for a job and maybe you ask me how that is going. Your mom is ill and you are helping her recover. I ask about that. To me, limerence is no different. If you know it’s something that’s bothering me, as a friend, you make some effort to bring it up every now and then and listen. Isn’t that part of the job description? 🙂 There are certainly plenty of topics friends bring up that I may not be able to relate to or understand, but I may some effort to listen and empathize.
This is something else that Tennov commented on: that limerents very often conceal what they are going through, because they realise that other people will not understand (unless they have gone through it themselves).
I quickly gave up on trying to describe limerence to other people. The one time I tried with a friend, I felt almost immediate embarrassment at the words coming out of my mouth. I’m a middle aged man with a family and a successful career, not a teenager. I think at best it sounds like we’re being overly melodramatic. Like we’ve been spending too much time flouncing about in a big white shirt while reading Shelley, brooding over the exquisite agony of our ill-fated love. At worst, it sounds like we’ve lost the plot.
Speaking of Shelley, I like this part of The Flight of Love:
Its passions will rock thee
As the storms rock the ravens on high;
Bright reason will mock thee
Like the sun from a wintry sky.
Rational Levin is always mocking Limerent Levin, and rightly so. I’m off to put on a big white blouse.
I actually think the world needs a lot more white poet blouses. I dont mean we all need to become limerent but that we need a heck of a lot more poeticism. In college we talk about changing the world and upending the value system our parents have crammed down our throats for 20 years … and then we are suddenly middle aged, having dinner parties and talking about home repairs. I think middle aged limerence is an escape to a time when life wasn’t so horribly practical and mundane. There has to be a way to access some of that youthful energy and rebellion without limerence. I just havent figured out a way to do it.
I think that’s a big part of it for midlife limerents, for sure. A sense of going back to a point where romance was all excitement and promise and open potential, rather than grounded responsibilities and domestic commitments. That’s also why I’m so pro purposeful living. If life has become too mundane then you are much more vulnerable to limerence. Much better to satisfy that urge for energy and rebellion (or, maybe, heterodoxy?) in a new direction for yourself, than in an addictive fantasy about another person.
Dr. L,
I have been trying to do the purposeful living. Spending time on a side, creative project … but it doesn’t even begin to match the feeling of being 25, going out in a too-tight outfit with friends and thinking anything could happen. And I don’t know if I’ll ever feel that way again. I have found myself recently starting to say slightly inappropriate things at work on our group chat … and getting little managerial warnings. I think I am trying to see if there is anyone else who feels as trapped as I do by the daily grind … but apparently there isn’t. Everyone just goes on and on about how they LOVE their jobs … I think it’s just a lot of butt kissing for the sake of the managers. But maybe I’m wrong. If they are taking some kind of “medication,” they need to share it. 🙂
I don’t think you are wrong. There is that old line about most people living lives of quiet desperation.
But, most people also tend to keep those fears and insecurities to themselves, and don’t want to risk communicating their dissatisfaction to others in case they risk what they have (i.e. keep singing the “I love my job” chorus). With that kind of preference falsification it becomes hard to distinguish the people who are genuinely committed from those that are just mimicking them for self preservation.
Kind of a cynical view, maybe, but based on anecdotal discussions with my peer group.
I also agree that creative projects can be valuable, but no, you cannot replace the excitement of limerence with a hobby. For me, purposeful living is a directional enterprise – it may start with a hobby, but builds like compound interest towards a serious goal, such as changing your life for good. That could be changing to a new job, it could be starting your own business, it could be aiming for “FIRE” (financially independent, retired early), it could be starting a charity, it could be writing a book, it could be transforming your relationships with family and friends.
Aiming for a completely new quality of life is a dream with a hope/fear cocktail that starts to come close to limerence. At least for me.
Song of the Day: “Opportunities” – Pet Shop Boys (1985)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5hN_vvgALE (Warning: To fully appreciate this song, I recommend closing your eyes and listening to it loud enough to risk hearing loss)
“… but it doesn’t even begin to match the feeling of being 25, going out in a too-tight outfit with friends and thinking anything could happen.”
I remember that feeling, except I was closer to 30. (late bloomer) This song captures that in spades. Most of the time nothing happened but there’s was always the promise that it might.
One night, it did. I saw my wife walk across the dance floor on Ladies Night in a club.
That song brings back memories.
Nostalgia Sunday…
I’ve been deweeding the garden. It’s either a paradigm of midlife mundanity, or a profound metaphor for the mental process I’ve been going through these last few months. What I know for sure is that the work is much more comfortable in a big white blouse, and the mundanity eases after the second bottle of laudanam.
My garden badly needs weeding, and it weighs on me like a psychic toll. There’s wisdom in pacifying labour that makes your world more beautiful.
Unfortunately, the drains needed unblocking, so I haven’t got round to it yet.
I think Marcia is on to something upthread 🙂
Scharnhorst,
Song of the Day: “Opportunities” – Pet Shop Boys (1985)
I know the song well. It’s on my IPOD. (Yes, I still have one!)
“Most of the time nothing happened but there’s was always the promise that it might.”
Yes, very true. And it wasn’t always romantic or sexual possibility that could happen. Just … possibility. A new drink. A new crowd. Being too loud at Denny’s at 3 a.m. after the club. But it wasn’t going out to lunch on a Saturday and talking about home repairs. I have become a lady who lunches (minus the wealth and the chance not to work), and it is all so painfully appropriate. I think that’s what the allure of middle age limerence is. It is so inappropriate .. . you aren’t supposed to experience it, want it or act it.
Dr. L,
“But, most people also tend to keep those fears and insecurities to themselves, and don’t want to risk communicating their dissatisfaction to others in case they risk what they have”
I don’t expect people to be truthful a little bit of humor could go a LONG way. When the U.S. Capitol was raided with protestors, someone posted a comment on the group chat. (We aren’t allowed to access the internet for anything other than work purposes, so the news was a surprise.) I posted on the work chat: “Are they protesting (our company name)? ” I got in trouble for that. 🙂
“That could be changing to a new job, it could be starting your own business, it could be aiming for “FIRE” (financially independent, retired early), it could be starting a charity, it could be writing a book, it could be transforming your relationships with family and friends.”
Well, I have been applying for new jobs, and my side project is a book. As for family and friends … well, I have kind of given up on that. The relationships I have with both are very shallow. I don’t think I can change that with my family; they are content skating on the surface. And there’s only so much I can do to transform a friendship if the friend is perfectly happy meeting up for lunch for a hour or two once every 2 or 3 months and doesn’t want or need anything more from me.
Marcia,
Some of those nights were just magical for no particular reason, weren’t they?
Magic Moment #1: “Don’t Bring Me Down” – ELO (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9nkzaOPP6g
In early 1980, I was in an ABC Lounge in FL. At the time, ABC liquor stores were notable for 3 reasons:
1. Most of them had lounges with lighted dance floors.
2. Most of them had rotating bars vice straight bars.
3. The bartenders and cocktail waitresses were all attractive young women in cheerleader outfits. (most important)
I was sitting at the rotating bar. The bartender was a young woman that I thought was just gorgeous. I never knew her name. “Don’t Bring Me Down’ came on. Her head started bopping, then her shoulders, then her hips, and so on. By the second, “I’ll tell you once more before I get off the floor,” anything that could move on that woman was in motion.
When the song was over, she went back to pouring drinks like nothing ever happened. The guy next to me asked, “What was that?!” I told him it was something wonderful.
Magic Moment #2: “Stages” – ZZ Top (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75cr6TMhPuM
I was on the way home from a night of bar hopping. The sign for a lounge said there was a band I liked playing so I stopped in for the last few sets.
Shortly after, 3-4 checkers from the Albertson’s I shopped at came in. I still remember most of their names. From the way they were wobbling, it wasn’t their first stop. I had never seen them in anything but their blue Albertson’s uniforms. Holy Sh-t! They were smokin’ hot! Who knew?! I asked one of them to dance to this. She didn’t make it through the whole song.
The next day, I stopped in the store and she was working. I asked if she had a good time that night. She asked if we’d danced. I told her we tried. She apologized and was really embarrassed. I tried to make a run at her but it turned out, I sometimes worked with her father and that made me nervous.
Small things…
As DrL said, “Nostalgia…”
Scharnhorst,
Your first story reminded me of documentaries I’ve seen about the famous disco nightclub Studio 54, which I am fascinated with. I do think it is a bit of nostalgia and rose-colored glasses in remembering the past, but I did have A LOT more fun when I was younger. And I just assumed I always would have fun, that things would continue just as they had in my 20s. I never realized how many people would fall off into domesticity because it didn’t ‘appeal to me. 🙂 I just don’t think I have found my people. Moving around so much doesn’t help. But NO MORE polite lunches! I’m done with that. I don’t want to do it anymore.
Marcia,
Are you familiar with the works of Cynthia Heimel? Her most famous book was “Sex Tips for Girls.” It was hilarious. I gave copies to LO #2 and my accountant. LO #2 hated it but my accountant loved it. I thought that would have been the other way around.
She’s died a few years ago. I think you’d like her. I think any man that a woman like Cynthia Heimel would bother with had to have something going for him. I think I would have loved being a consort to a woman like her.
It’s not that your people don’t exist, but I think you’d have to be in select circles in a pretty big market to find them. A lot of places don’t support that kind of life style and people that want it have to leave to find it.
Scharnhorst,
When I wrote “my people,” I meant friends. I can’t do the “meet up other ladies for coffee” for an hour every 3 months anymore. We can’t meet up after dark because … I don’t know why.
You are beyond correct . That was a time I felt alive again for the time in 15 years. Now being middle aged, that gave me the passion n excitement I’m dying for literally. And after he got another job. The “fun” of other stuff could never reach that high so going out no longer mattered. And for a social person, that was mind blowing. I’ll basically sit n be until I feel alive again. But that’s unhealthy so, right back to square one. Lol
Limerence does seem to highlight that “dual identity” feeling, doesn’t it?
Similarly for me, rational Dr L would point out the idiocy, but limerent Dr L would decisively counter, “yeah, but it feeeels soooo gooood.”
Echoing everyone… my friends look at me like I am crazy when I try to explain how I feel. And maybe I am.. a little at least!
The only non-limerent in my life that has ever really understood my limerence is my SO. He is an ex-gambling addict which is an equally irrational, deluded, uncertainty driven all-encompassing obsessive addiction that starts with intermittent euphoria before eventually descending into inescapable loss-chasing financial ruin, deep self-loathing and depression.
In my aborted attempt to describe limerence to my friend, I concluded by saying that my SO doesn’t understand why I was pining for such a completely inappropriate LO. He replied that he agreed with her on that point.
I agree with all the comments about midlife limerence. It was incredibly energizing, and I did feel rebellious.
Allie: may I ask how your SO has coped after his addiction? Did something more purposeful replace it? Your description of his addiction pretty closely resembles my LE (apart from the financial ruin part).
Not really, maybe a bit of dieting and healthy living. I can see the similarities with you – he was also close to a breakdown. He was just incredibly relieved the stress was gone and to still have a wife and a house. My finding out ended his desperate attempts to recoup his losses. His final year of gambling was just miserable and stressful, with no enjoyment left in it at all. Thus his addiction ended when he stopped doing it as is mind already only associating gambling with misery not pleasure. I guess that fits in with DrLs reprogramming techniques – focus on the misery not the pleasure.
I guess his (our) focus was on coping with the financial fallout and changing gears with his career to earn more money.
Luckily his gambling suppliers respected his desire for a lifetime ban so leave him alone. Unlike your LO.
Thanks for the reply, Allie. I think this highlights why limerence can be harder to get over, compared with some other addictions. Coping with the financial fallout and changing direction with a career are concrete, real world things to be focusing on. It’s a distraction, but it has purpose. When the damage that limerence has done is almost entirely in your own head, it’s less clear what to do. Plus as you say, if you leave gambling alone, it leaves you alone too.
There’s a work position coming up that I could apply for, that would certainly immediately fill almost all of my time, but I’m not sure I want the stress and responsibility. When you’re young, all your focus is on climbing the ladder, but you don’t really think about why you’re doing it, and where the ladder actually goes. I think it’s healthier to find another dimension to my life, but perhaps like some others here, I’m not yet sure what that is.
This is one of the things I’m trying to get to the bottom of: what do limerents have in common with other disorders? I have addictive issues in other areas as well, and this feels AWFULLY similar to how I feel in dealing with other addictions. It’s a complete loss of emotional control. An involuntary surrender of all logical and rational thought. A roller coaster of highs and lows that is almost unbearable.
LL,
Since many therapists have never heard of limerence, they’ll try to fit you into a bin they understand, like Codependency, OCD, etc. It’s also easier for them if they can code you into something your insurance will accept other than Anxiety Disorder, Unspecified.
The old DSM criteria for Cluster B personality disorders say it takes 5 of 9 criteria to qualify as a diagnosis. Maybe someone/we only hits 4 of 9 but if they’re strong enough in those, that missing 5th criterion doesn’t make much difference, if you have deal with them or they have to deal with us.
Three of my LOs had borderline waif (small “b,” small “w”) characteristics to them. One therapist said, “You’ve convinced me she’s (LO #2) a borderline. Quit trying to convince yourself she’s not.” It took awhile to sift through my attraction to them. LO #2 also tilted toward Avoidant Personality Disorder and Self-Defeating (aka Masochistic) Personality Disorder. What many therapists know about PDs seems limited to Cluster B PDs.
The literature says Codependents are often attracted to Bordelines or Narcissists. One therapist said I was codependent and another said I wasn’t. Codependency didn’t fit the dynamics of my last LE with LO #4 but limerence did. If you’re interested, this explains it nicely. http://www.andreaharrn.co.uk/co-dependent-limerent/
This is a fascinating article. I like how Tennov suggests limerence isn’t a continuum – it’s a distinct mental state and you’re either in or you’re out. I know it might be tempting to put crushes and limerence on a spectrum together, but that would be a grave disservice to limerent sufferers, because limerence is something unique and often painful and can’t really be called an extreme crush.
Having said that, I think it’s possible to be in limerence (for one person) and also simultaneously to have crushes on several people – particularly if the LO is mostly unavailable and/or has ended the relationship on ambiguous terms. But we might puzzle over why these crushes never match the intensity of the limerent episode. The crushes, compared to LE, never feel all that exciting or absorbing.
Limerence does lead to chemical changes in the brain/body. Science has probably advanced a lot since the 1970s. If neuroscience can tell us what might be going on with (raised) dopamine levels and (lowered) serotonin levels, ethology might explain some of the behavioural changes in humans linked to these hormones?
DR LIMERENCE, if I may quote your words, I think you’ve already given us three (or possibly four?) great lines on limerence which I really, really like:
” … limerence is a state where your baseline neurophysiology has been altered. Your sensitivity to arousal is heightened. Your motivational drive has been amplified. Your motivational salience is focused intensely on the dominant stimulus of LO.”
If I were trying to explain limerence to another person in three sentences, while distinguishing it from a crush, I would probably say something like this:
“Limerence is an obsession with another person whereas a crush is just finding someone attractive. The sole aim of the limerent’s life becomes obtaining affection from LO whereas a crush isn’t all-consuming. Limerence, unlike a crush, results in altered brain chemistry and may prompt one to act in noticeably out-of-character ways.”
Maybe I should change that last line to “dramatically altered brain chemistry”? There must be some mild-but-not-destabilising chemical changes involved, for example, in ordinary friendship and straightforward physical attraction, etc?
Sammy,
“Having said that, I think it’s possible to be in limerence (for one person) and also simultaneously to have crushes on several people – particularly if the LO is mostly unavailable and/or has ended the relationship on ambiguous terms”
I agree with this but would add, at least for me, the crush usually didn’t start until the initial intensity of the LE was over. I don’t think I could even see anyone else in the initial stages of the LE. And moving on the crush’s advances almost felt like a resignation of the futileness of the LE, like it was the first nail in the coffin in the limerent fantasy. There was a sadness to it.
@Marcia. I absolutely agree with what you say here.
I think there’s something we could call “limerence – peak intensity” . (Sounds like an action movie, no?) At the peak intensity stage of limerence, it’s impossible to think of anyone other than LO in romantic terms. I don’t know how long “peak intensity” lasts. (Is it the 18 months – 3 year period so often cited or does “peak intensity” constitute only a small part of that three-year span? How does one measure the true duration of limerence? From The Glimmer to Resignation?)
I think crushes on others can coexist with limerence in the lead-up to peak intensity and after peak intensity begins to wane. But you’re right – at peak intensity itself, when our minds are firmly locked onto LO, other potential partners may as well not exist. Crushes are a waste of time, a remnant of high school folly. “Romantic silliness” was the term I used to dismiss such supposedly immature attractions. Our brains only want one thing, and that’s LO. A limerent episode feels so grown-up compared to a mere crush (until it doesn’t)! 😛
I must admit, I really was a mess in the “peak intensity” stage of limerence. If I recall correctly, I had panic attacks for no reason. I would walk to the local shopping centre, stand across the street from the shopping centre, and turn around and walk home again. I couldn’t enter the shopping centre. I was like a deer in the headlights all the time. I was unable to function around other people due to anxiety. In fact, I misdiagnosed myself as suffering from “social anxiety”.
A lot of anger too was mixed in with that anxiety. I was afraid all the time and angry that others didn’t understand or sympathise with my fear. Other people probably regarded me as either shy (best-case scenario) or deliberately uncooperative (worst-case scenario). In reality, I was paralysed with fear. I was afraid that one false move and my LO would reject me. I think this ties in with feelings of “awe” that other posters have mentioned in the comments above.
Sammy,
“How does one measure the true duration of limerence? From The Glimmer to Resignation?)”
Good question. I’m not sure. I think limerence can last long after resignation. I think resignation starts the recovery process. I would say I’m on the tail end of limerence, about 80% or so over it, but I still think about my LO (though nowhere near as much as I used to). I dreamed about him the other night, and I haven’t done that in years. It’s like the LO takes a chunk of one’s psyche.
“I think crushes on others can coexist with limerence in the lead-up to peak intensity and after peak intensity begins to wane. ”
I agree, but with several of my LEs, they were instantaneous (or if they weren’t, they started out immediately as a really strong attraction that grew to limerence after only a few meetings). I know several people have written about the LE developing over time. I only had one LE that did that. It was a colleague I’d see out and about. I never paid him much attention, but I went to a party one night, and he was there, and there was the glimmer. I’m not sure why it started then. By the time we went out a week later on our first date, the LE had started. I took a tranquilizer before he showed up, I was so nervous!
“A limerent episode feels so grown-up compared to a mere crush (until it doesn’t)! ”
A crush feels like a knock-off purse that says Chamnel instead of Channel. 🙂
That’s really interesting, Sammy. Am I right that you’ve previously suggested you have an avoidant attachment style? It could be another really important element of the story that people with different attachment styles go through a different emotional cycle after “peak limerence”.
For me, the latter period was more bittersweet than anything else, and I still felt affection and concern for LO’s wellbeing but knew that I was doing the right thing in detaching. That was after I’d fought through the withdrawal pains, of course.
@DRLIMERENCE.
I’m not 100% on top of the terminology. However, I think most people in my everyday life PERCEIVE me as avoidant because I’m not very good at small talk and seem standoffish, etc. This LO perceived me as having “quiet strength” in the early stages of LE, but at some stage (toward the end of our friendship) my neediness must have become too obvious to ignore (and possibly confusing).
Behind my “social mask”, I’m an anxious person. I would describe myself as anxious. Yet the way I deal with overwhelming feelings of anxiety is to push people away, pull up the drawbridge, draw the blinds, retreat, retreat, retreat from emotional intimacy. People don’t get much opportunity to witness my anxiety first-hand. I prefer to have my meltdowns in private. (It’s good manners too!)
I threw out the gifts because of … um, I dunno … certainly, guilt. But also other things – fear of engulfment, fear of abandonment. I didn’t feel worthy. I didn’t really believe he loved me. I didn’t want to open my heart to him – I was too raw inside, and I had too many unmet needs he couldn’t address. Also, it felt like no amount of affection he showed me would ever be enough. But, yes, maybe it was a phobic response to someone getting a little too close to me. (Would he really want to stick around once he got to know the real me?)
In the first six months, his love was enough and filled me up. I felt happy. Then, after that, maybe I felt as if I’d been too lucky. I’d received too much. All that had been given to me was about to be taken away. I become like a hole-filled bucket narcissists are accused of being. The good feelings slipped through my fingers like sand – I couldn’t hold onto the good feelings, and the bad feelings took over.
Fear of abandonment replaced desire and euphoria. Hatred is a strong word and I hesitate to use it. Did I hate him? I don’t know if I hated him or hated myself more. Hatred and love are two sides of the same coin. For the first time in my life, I’d allowed myself to love someone and I allowed someone to love me (maybe). That of course left me exposed … to loss, to pain, to (inevitable?) heartbreak.
I’m not really sure what all this says about my attachment style? But I certainly felt threatened (unconsciously) by someone offering me intimacy. On the other hand, I’d been angling for said intimacy for quite some time. I just didn’t know what to do with my “dream fish” once I’d caught him!! (Throw him back in the river? Pretend it never happened? Go home, lie, and say I caught nothing?)
My older sister talks about “bittersweet feelings” in the later stages of her LEs, and honestly that sounds like a more human response to limerence than mine. My sister does a better job of maintaining some tender feelings for her past love interests, even if it doesn’t work out. She has a softness in her soul. I had a lot of unresolved anger I think… I was a really emotional boy with a lot of anger. But all this anger was repressed, below the surface and/or in my head.
I agree with you – attachment styles must affect how limerence plays out. I just wanted to get this guy out of my system for good. Quite early in the infatuation, I was struggling to get away and break free. I was scared of him stealing my independence. I knew it would end all in tears. Yet his ghost lingered for years. Maybe his ghost had a message for me? Limerence put me in touch with my enormous reserves of buried anger. What’s the link between love and anger?
If the true and lasting gift LO gave me is the “gift of anger”, that is the strangest gift ever!! Was I too gentle, too passive, too self-deprecating before he came along? Darn. That frivolous young man did change my life, after all. 😛
“For me, the latter period was more bittersweet than anything else, and I still felt affection and concern for LO’s wellbeing but knew that I was doing the right thing in detaching. That was after I’d fought through the withdrawal pains, of course.”
@DRLIMERENCE.
I think maybe my problem is I had an agonising long “withdrawal period”, (years), which only feels like it’s ending for good now. Because I was “still in withdrawal”, I was having trouble feeling bittersweet nostalgia which wouldn’t reignite the limerent flame.
I can feel some positive things for LO now. E.g. he was clearly a very loving human being who just had the misfortune of becoming my LO (and not being limerent himself). I don’t think he had any sinister agenda to cause me pain. I can see redeeming qualities in his wife too. I can remember them as the agreeable schoolfriends they were. They both used to tease me good-naturedly, come to think of it, which is a sign of affection (for neurotypical people anyway).
I think autism played a role in my long withdrawal period. In my early twenties, I had kind of fallen through the cracks in terms of work and employment, become cut off from my peer group, and had no one to talk through my experiences with. I probably ended up believing that whatever I had experienced was unique and I was “the only limerent in the village”. Not that I knew the word “limerent”. Actually, I thought something spooky (supernatural?) had happened to me, and I was psychic or something.
Limerence, to me, felt like being hit by an invisible bag of cement that fell off the back of an invisible truck. I’m lying on the street, injured, and calling for help. But I can’t explain to passers-by what the matter is, because they can’t see the invisible bag of cement next to me, and no one saw the invisible truck drive down the street.
I’m glad I experienced limerence, though, as now I’m mindful to see every social interaction from at least TWO points of view. I.e. when misunderstandings happen, it’s not because one person is being nasty. Misunderstandings happen all the time between good friends, etc.
Yeah, realising that your can’t ever know other people’s true motives – and that’s OK – is an important step in recovery. As you say, it makes it much easier to accept misunderstandings for what they are.
Limerence to me is a bit like depression in that people experiencing it often don’t even want to engage in activities they previously enjoyed. The key for me with limerence is that it causes me to neglect other areas of life and even negatively impacts my work performance. When I think of it this way, I don’t actually think my feelings for “LO #2” ever amounted to true limerence because they just weren’t that all-consuming, like they were with LO #1. A major crush, yes, but limerence, probably not. Thanks Dr. L for this post (and all of the commenters). This discussion really helped me to see things more clearly and understand that we limerents are still capable of having crushes that aren’t obsessive or all-consuming.
One other point I should mention is that I think of crushes, infatuation and limerence as being part of the same continuum. I don’t necessarily see it as a dichotomy because it can be difficult to differentiate a major crush from limerence, although for me the telltale sign of true limerence is that the thoughts and feelings are all-consuming in the case of limerence.
Infatuation Vs limerence is an another interesting one… for me they are two words describing the same thing – an obsessive form of love.
@Vicarious Limerent. What about emotional dependency? I.e. In limerence, our moods good and bad are closely linked to LO’s (real and/or perceived) behaviour toward us. We lose much of our agency and our ability to see the situation objectively. I’m not sure if dramatic mood swings are a widely-reported feature of crushes – although, of course, one would be delighted to receive positive attention from a crush. 🙂
Sure, that makes sense too. However, when I think of it that way, emotional dependency kind of applied to LO #2, so who knows? How she behaved towards me did kind of impact my mood.
I think Vicarious Limerent’s idea of a continuum between crushes and limerence makes a bit of sense to me. Because again… when things are going ‘well’ (whatever that looks like to you) there isn’t much that necessarily throws up a red flag… it could easily feel a bit like a strong crush… sure you’re probably thinking about them a lot, but that doesn’t feel intrusive because you WANT to think about them. Actually, the intrusive rumination doesn’t really kick in for me until things start to get complicated. Or I guess in the context of limerence with the recognition or sensation of barriers.
Now… maybe these barriers don’t have to be tangible things. Sometimes they are (LO is married etc.) But barriers can also be intangible.
Imagine this scenaro;
I’m on a date with LO to be (lucky guy). We’ve been on a few dates, and though I might not have the language to describe it – there’s the glimmer. I feel tingly etc. But that’s just being into someone, right?
Then LO says something which doesn’t sit well with me. He indicates being unreliable, or possibly even untrustworthy (yep, I’ve been that sucker…) at this point… a barrier has been erected. Part of me has detected that whatever it is I think I’m after is going to be difficult to get from this person.
Now, I would argue that if this were a crush, such developments would begin to turn me off. I might think ‘ahhh. I’m mistaken you’re not ‘all that’. But in the early LE stages my go to is to negate that information, but then start to ruminate. As the actual possibility of things working declines, with mounting evidence of incompatibility my fervour increases.
I focus intensely on the positives and negate the negatives (typical of limerence) but actually it was partly the negatives which triggered the move into the obsessive phase. Which becomes self reinforcing…
Like a feedback… ‘this person is so amazing, they must be because I’m prepared to negate everything to be with them because this person is so amazing that I’m prepared to…’
The higher the barriers become the more committed you become to the idea that they really must be amazing, partly because you’re trying to rationalise the intensity of your interest…
So what some people might say was a crush amplifies and spins off sonewhere else entirely.
Only recently actually there was the article here entitled ‘The Crush you can’t quit’.
As always, you have such insightful self awareness Thomas.
Scharnhorst’s Schreiber article says of ADDers “*Intense relationships: A romance with someone who has personality disorder features (like NPD or BPD) is stimulating to an ADD’er, whether the partner is invoking pleasure in them or pain. Pain is grounding, and makes us feel alive. The craving for a sense of aliveness keeps us going back for more, even when it harms us.”
Your description above fits this to a tee!
Thank you Allie!
Also I think you’ve hit the nail on that head – that bit of the article certainly resonated with me.
“The higher the barriers become the more committed you become to the idea that they really must be amazing, partly because you’re trying to rationalise the intensity of your interest…”
@Thomas. That’s a good point. Once we have strong emotions for someone, we start to look for reasons to justify the emotions e.g. they must be amazing because I feel amazing around them, etc. (I wonder if limerence itself starts to dictate in our heads how the budding relationship is supposed to play out?)
Limerence involves … uncertainty and obstacles, which you seem to have got covered in your examples.
Is the difference between limerence and a crush our own level of vested interest? Do people necessarily fantasise about being in a relationship with a crush in a non-fantasy way? Maybe crushes never leave the realm of pure fantasy? We know we’re not going to date a movie star or a member of the royal family, for instance (if we’re not movie stars or highly-eligible scions of the aristocracy ourselves). Maybe we don’t personalise the behaviour of mere crushes so much?
You can crush on someone you have zero chances of being with. The more unrealistic the crush, the more fun it is (if you ask me). For an LO, though, there has to be a real chance that you two could end up together.
Sammy,
“Maybe crushes never leave the realm of pure fantasy? We know we’re not going to date a movie star or a member of the royal family, for instance (if we’re not movie stars or highly-eligible scions of the aristocracy ourselves).”
I am going to disagree. The key difference between a crush and limerence, to me, is the level of attraction and ability to get over it. I am very attracted to a crush. I am overwhelmingly attracted to an LO. A crush I get over pretty quickly. A LO takes a chunk of my psyche! 🙂 But whether it’s a crush or limerence, I am going to try to act on it, since I don’t feel either all that often (unless the crush or LO shows absolutely no interest, but I don’t have a tendency to develop interest in people who show zero interest). Obviously , a movie star or member of the royal family is different, because they fall into the realm of obvious impossibility, but, tbh, the royal family is all yours. 🙂 I can’t figure out why people are so fascinated.
“I am going to disagree. The key difference between a crush and limerence, to me, is the level of attraction and ability to get over it. I am very attracted to a crush. I am overwhelmingly attracted to an LO. A crush I get over pretty quickly. A LO takes a chunk of my psyche! 🙂”
@Marcia. Well-put. So that’s two solid points of difference you’ve established between limerence and crushes: (1) the amount of mental space occupied/consumed by the person/relationship and (2) how easy it is to get over person/relationship.
Would you be happy with the following three-sentence summary of your feelings (entirely in your own words, just rearranged slightly)?
“The key difference between a crush and limerence, to me, is the level of attraction and ability to get over it. An LO takes a chunk of my psyche whereas a crush I get over fairly quickly. I am very attracted to a crush and I am overwhelmingly attracted to an LO.”
I think that’s a beautiful little paragraph right there. Pithy and yet eloquent. Nuanced without overstepping the mark. Well done! 😛
Agreed.
Hi Sammy,
“Would you be happy with the following three-sentence summary of your feelings (entirely in your own words, just rearranged slightly)?”
Yes. I like the editing you did. 🙂
You have made a few literary references on here, and I wonder if you have ever read the book “Brideshead Revisited” by British author Evelyn Waugh? (Do NOT watch the 2008 film, a horrible version. Watch the 1981 BBC miniseries.) Anyway, the first part of the book is about two young men at Oxford who have this intense, romantic friendship. I think of that book every time you mention your first LO.
“I wonder if you have ever read the book “Brideshead Revisited” by British author Evelyn Waugh? (Do NOT watch the 2008 film, a horrible version. Watch the 1981 BBC miniseries.) Anyway, the first part of the book is about two young men at Oxford who have this intense, romantic friendship. I think of that book every time you mention your first LO.”
Thank you for the recommendation, Marcia. I must have missed this comment when you posted it, and have just came across it now. 😛
In answer to a question you posed elsewhere, about why I’ve never directly gone after an LO, well, I think that’s a very complicated question. Part of it must have to do with my temperament (neurotic, guilt-stricken Christian) and part of it must have to do with limerence itself.
I’ll focus on the limerence part because I think that’s easier to explain. I think limerence is almost a mind-game two people are playing with each other – a game of mental chess if you will. So I think direct disclosure of feelings, while arguably healthy, would pretty much bring the game to a close. (No more uncertainty. No more despair. But also no more euphoria). 😉
Perhaps I am one of those awful “game-players” that people talk about in the dating world? But I’ve never thought of that as a bad thing. I kind of just assumed that everyone plays mind games…
I really admire people who are able to approach or form relationships with their LO. I think they are incredibly brave, because being direct could also mean having to face rejection head-on. Mind you, rejection is no less painful when it’s indirect.
I think limerence might propel some people forward, in a more social direction, TOWARDS their LO. Limerence seems to pull me back, however, in an antisocial direction, away from LO and social engagement. I just get trapped deeper and deeper in a fantasy world which even my LO can’t break me out of. It’s almost like the fantasy becomes more engrossing than the person who inspired the fantasy.
I think I had two male LOs in high school. I transferred limerence from one to the other successfully when the first got a girlfriend, but I never forgot LO#1. When LO#2 ghosted me, after he got married, I went back to ruminating about LO#1. Maybe I just always need somebody to ruminate about, and it doesn’t matter who? 😁
Limerence can be very strange. I wrote some poems and stories in high school inspired by LO#1 and that attracted the attention of LO#2. LO#2 came into my life ironically because of my infatuation with LO#1. All very strange! Even more confusingly, LO#2 seemed drawn to the very kind of limerent feeling I was expressing in my poetry, despite never having had such feelings himself, and certainly never for me and never for another male. I think, at the end of the day, he was intrigued by something outside of his experience.
I don’t think I ever stopped carrying a torch for LO#1, but successfully distracted myself with LO#2 for a time, because he was much more willing to spend time with me. I’m a pragmatist.
I don’t know if it’s just plain greedy to flip-flop back and forth between two LOs, while refusing to choose either one of them? Maybe that’s just being young? 🙄
Also, a young woman in my high school read one of my limerence-inspired poems, assumed it was about her, and promptly become limerent for me. She even told her friends: “That’s exactly how I feel!” I don’t know why she personalised the contents of a poem that was published in the school literary magazine and only addressed to a gender-neutral “you”. (In hindsight, I realise I was writing about LO#1, a male). The poem expressed generic feelings of longing. I mean, there wasn’t any detail identifying a given person.
The people from my old school must think I’m a terrible player! 🙄
Am interested to read your poem Sammy.
“limerence is almost a mind-game two people are playing with each other – a game of mental chess if you will”
I think there is often only one person in this game, mentally playing both roles.
“Am interested to read your poem Sammy.”
@Allie !.
That can be arranged, since it was only eight lines long! Probably the only poem of mine from high school I can still remember. 😁
Through the window,
The wind blew your name,
In flickers, in shadows,
Floating on flames.
Through the window
Wandered the heart,
In flickers, in shadows.
Yes, we are apart…
“I think there is often only one person in this game, mentally playing both roles.”
Yeah, sometimes I get the eerie feeling that I’m BOTH characters in the fantasy, or moving around chess pieces that aren’t mine. 😆
Warning: off topic but with hope I’ll receive some replies with advice to my struggle, nevertheless. I am vaguely aware that the forums exist and I’m yet to check them out as my question belongs there instead, but this ocd/anxiety driven dilemma has been consuming me for days so need to just get it out there.
Here it goes:
If I were to be clinical about my LE, it has been tormenting me for years so sadly, I am one of the worse cases.
It’s been years since I’ve interacted with LO either in person or online.
I’ve just been fostering and dealing with the pain of it in silence for a long time and without any significant outlet to share with anyone (aside from this blog, of course! Thanks, Dr. L and yes, I’ve recently purchased your book on Amazon.)
Suddenly, after 2 years of nothing from LO, he decided to follow me on one social media platform. I haven’t been too overly analytical about this part because I’m fairly well versed in how the different ones work and these days it could be as simple as syncing your phone contacts with any of them, and then boom, you’re suddenly following people from your past. So I just tossed it up to one of those occurrences. At best, I’m still in his phone.
He seems to be the silent participant of the social media, the lurker, if you will. Never posts but likes other people’s posts and photos. A lot.
Including mine. Again, no biggie as I stick to posting photos of nature, trees, birds and alike
albeit a bit unsettling because the obvious question is WHY…
As well, the strange plot twist has been that his family member (whom I’ve never met!) followed my account shortly after. Again, just tossed it up to weird coincidence. My account may have been simply suggested to that person by the Ig algorithm.
That’s not the dilemma here. My anxious unsettled brain got this idea recently that I could use this as a chance to actually post something personal in order to send a hidden message to LO. Something along the lines of… “and there was that one stock broker/accountant/dentist who after learning about my unintended pregnancy, discarded me through silence…” I’d thrown in some identifying features without naming names.
My rationale? Not to shame them, necessarily but to let them know about the pain they’ve caused me through that experience. Others won’t know whom I’m referencing but HE will know it’s about him.
Please don’t tell me I’m still in the bargaining stage of grief. I’ll live with the grief forever, I’ve decided.
It’s to remind him (assuming he has a conscience, I really don’t know), that he can’t be going around luring women into pseudo relationships by sleeping with them and then disappearing. I believe he’s done this to other women. Oh yeah, his list of social media friends are mostly attractive women who seem like decent people. They may read my post if they poke around enough.
Petty? Immature? Possible consequences? Closer to closure perhaps? He is a textbook dismissive avoidants so I am definitely not expecting a reaction but I’m sure it will be read at least.
I can totally understand the temptation AS but I really wouldn’t do it. Doing this will only have a negative impact on your mental health and that is what matters here. You will probably never know how he reacts so will ruminate about it endlessly. What he (or anyone else) actually thinks has no impact on you at all. Most likely he will see through this and you will end up feeling bad.
Wishing you well.
What do you mean by he will see through it?
My approach to this would be to focus on what you would gain in terms of building a better future life for yourself, AS.
Best case scenario: he reads the post, he realises it’s about him, he feels a pang of remorse.
Worst case scenario: he reads the post and responds unpredictably. Maybe he hurls an accusation back. Maybe he realises he is still in your mind and circles back for more supply. Maybe he starts assassinating your character online. But, whatever the response, he is back in your head and heart churning things up again.
Which is more likely? Bluntly, if he has no compunction about discarding someone with an unwanted pregnancy, it seems pretty unlikely that a social media post would even register. Plus, you would never know even if it did.
To me, it seems like exposing yourself emotionally again, with very little potential benefit.
But his father would also recognize it’s about his son. I want him to know the kind of man he raised.
Just don’t.
That window closed a long time ago.
There comes a point where trying to make an a subtle point comes across as lame.
If what he did wasn’t bad enough, picture him reading it and laughing. When you were together, did he ever smirk for an inappropriate reason?
Anxious Soul,
I understand your desire to do this but I strongly encourage you to remove them and then block.
I empathize with your pain and desire for retribution, but for yourself…no contact is the path of least pain.
My best to you.
I very much agree with the other comments here, Anxious Soul.
I know what it’s like to have thoughts like this go round and round in your head, going over the same ground again and again, never really going anywhere. I can understand wanting to take some sort of action, in the hope that it might make that stop. But it won’t. I think it will make it worse, and you will immediately regret the post. Your problem is not with this man. He is no longer part of your life, and from what you’ve said about him that is already a huge win for you. The problem is in your head, and you absolutely don’t want or need his help to deal with that. I don’t know if you’ve found someone to talk this through with, but the forum here is hugely helpful.
(Incidentally, as a dismissive avoidant type who is trying to reform, I would not reply to a post like that – I wouldn’t take any action. When I have behaved in that avoidant way in the past it has infuriated people, as they are not getting the reaction they wanted, and it can make them take more extreme action.)
I respect everyone who responded opinion and thank you! I will not do this then. I will most likely regret it. Still curious, how would an avoidant person FEEL about this though? I know he will not respond but would he reflect at least and maybe offer an apology down the line? He doesn’t know how much pain he caused me.
If he’s fearful-avoidant, which likely means he’s borderline (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1857277/), he won’t feel anything because nothing in his mind is about you.
They just don’t get it, even when you explain it to them and likely never will. If by chance you encounter them, they’ll either look at you like you fell off the planet or look really annoyed that you brought it up. Trust me on this one.
It takes awhile but you should get to the point where once you’ve truly written them off, you don’t want an apology from them. When they pop up, you want to remember them for what they were.
The last things you come to not want to ever see in them are regret or remorse. You think you do but you don’t. It might ruin everything. That’s one reason that once you’re rid of them, you don’t let them back in. They’re the villain, and by God, they’re going to stay the villain. They earned it. One of my goals was to be able to remember LO #2 fondly. We spent two really good years together but she always be the villain.
Apologies from these people are overrated.
Anxious I have nothing to add to the excellent advice above. Just to say I agree with it all, and I agree with Beth. Block him. What is he doing creeping back into your online space, prowling around… liking this or that…
It has clearly upset you, and based on what you tell us of your past I think we can see why it would clearly; see all the concern for you here!
If you ‘send a message’ then you’re doing it on his terms… he prodded – you responded.
Better to cut him out. He’s not welcome. That’s the best for you, and the least energy intensive solution. He’s not worthy of your wit or subtlety. Block and take time to recover…
…and there’s me with ‘nothing to add’…
Wishing you well, x.
“He doesn’t know how much pain he caused me.”
I used to think this about my LO.
However, I reflect on all that he told me about himself. His failed marriages and relationships.
I have no doubt those women told him about the pain he caused them.
He knew what he was doing when he worked his way deep into my life at a vulnerable time. He knew how much he hurt me.
He didn’t care.
Ha. Thanks for sharing your own experience with DA attachment style. It’s a mystery to me, this type. I’m such an open book and wear my heart on my sleeve, it’s actually very difficult to relate to those who are wired in such way that they avoid conflict and talking about emotions at all cost. Not to offend anyone but what a selfish way to live. DAs tend to hurt so many along the way. Now Sharn is telling me they actually don’t even “feel” or regret or empathize. To me it sounds like a form of narcissism instead. I yet to read the famous Attached book but it’s on my short to do list. My Anxious Preoccupied mind just wants validation, apologies and closure. But closure is an illusion, correct?
Fyi, I don’t think I’ll block. In my mind, that’s sending even a stronger message that I CARE and isn’t indifference the goal here? At least that’s what I’ve read from dating coaches… that if you perform such extreme action, THEY actually get a sense of “winning” because they then know they got to you or you took enough time and effort to block so you must still care. It’s an ego trip, no?
Anyway, apologies in advance but I will repost this on the forum soon enough. Not that I need more opinions, I’ve already decided I am not going to do that passive aggressive thing by posting about him on social media, but because it’s sort of fascinating reading about the experiences of others.
Anxious,
I blocked my LO, who may have a BPD or be a sociopath. I never understood his need to hurt, in passive aggressive ways, at the slightest hint of a perceived insult. He did it all over the place. Kind one day to me, cutting the next.
It was vital for me to avoid seeing a random pic or comment. It became a way for me to exert self-control. After months of constant rumination and pain, I had to get away in every way that I could.
I’ve never had a problem in the past separating myself from toxic people, even toxic family members. Limerence made it impossible.
Your LO doesn’t deserve your notice. Nothing. Best of luck to you.
Anxious Soul,
” I’m such an open book and wear my heart on my sleeve, it’s actually very difficult to relate to those who are wired in such way that they avoid conflict and talking about emotions at all cost. Not to offend anyone but what a selfish way to live.”
Tbh, I have found that a lot of people are not good at having what I call “honest conversations,” such as “This is bothering me” or “This is what I really need from you.” Sometimes what you are greeted with when you try to be open is belligerence or them acting like they don’t know what you are talking about, two maddening forms of deflection that make it impossible to really talk to them. Some people acknowledge what you are saying but nothing changes in how they treat you. You have to ask yourself — is this person capable of hearing me? I have tried to talk to family members, only to be accused of complaining. I’m sure they think I have withdrawn, but after a while, with some people, you give up.
AS,
I was talking more about Fearful-Avoidants than Dismissive-Avoidants. DAs have a more “take it or leave it” attitude toward relationships. DAs are ok with themselves (when not taken to the extreme), it’s other people we don’t think we can trust and rely on. Sooner or later, they’re going to let you down.
FAs seem to be deathly afraid they’ll be abandoned and will often turn that into a self-fulfilling prophecy. DAs subconsciously assume up front that the relationship won’t last so why bother attaching to someone? When LO #2 told me her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone, my response was that there was nobody I couldn’t live without. I told her that everyone I ever cared about had either left or was taken from me. Why bother caring?
As for “Avoidant” by Heller & Levine, take it with a grain of salt. I gave it 3 stars on Amazon. That book could be very misleading.
Scharnhorst,
Are you an avoidant? Didn’t you also say you were co-dependent? I’m confused by that, although I haven’t done extensive research on it. I also got the feeling from the way you had talked about your earlier LOs and meeting your wife that you hadn’t ever been single for very long. I’m not criticizing or challenging your definitions, but I consider myself an avoidant, more fearful than dismissive, and I have had long periods of being single. Limerence is perfect for me because the feelings are so intense, it propels me away from my avoidant tendencies and makes me want to pursue the person. Otherwise, I often don’t feel interested enough or compelled enough to act. If I really wanted someone to talk to, I’d call a friend. I’ve just never been one who has always searching for sexual or romantic connection.
Dismissive avoidants are challenging people to have a relationship with, but they aren’t bad people (necessarily). In my original comment above, I meant that I would previously have avoided conflict at all costs. If someone was trying to provoke a reaction in me, or start an argument with me, my response would be to get away from them and not engage. I have mainly been avoidant with my SO. We have discussed it extensively over the last few months. Quite why she has put up with it I don’t know – she says she’s a glutton for punishment. That said, I was pretty much entirely unaware I was behaving in that way. I am now very aware, and am trying to change.
As for your LO, I don’t know what he would think. He doesn’t sound like a very nice person. But not all avoidants are like him either. Some might not feel any emotion on the surface, although I’d say it is then deeply repressed (there are some interesting brain studies of avoidants). Others will be avoiding their emotions, or doing their best to distract themselves.
Marcia,
I was a Dismissive-Avoidant. One therapist labeled me co-dependent. Another therapist said I wasn’t. I’m pretty sure LO #2 was FA and LO #4 was DA. I have no idea about the other 2.
If you think about it, limerence works for DAs. Since much of the relationship goes on inside our heads, you don’t actually have to deal with someone if you don’t want to. We can do most of it ourselves.
In “EMOTION IN ROMANTIC PARTNERS: INTIMACY FOUND, INTIMACY LOST, INTIMACY RECLAIMED” – Marion Solomon, PhD (The Healing Power of Emotion: Affective Neuroscience, Development & Clinical Practice (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology)), Solomon says, “Research shows that a good relationship can alter earlier disturbed attachment patterns. Treboux and Crowell (2001) studied adult attachment representations across two ordinary life events: marriage and becoming a parent. Their research found that these transitions could serve as catalysts to change in Bowlby’s working models (Bowlby, 1969). Indeed, over a period of 5 years, a secure adult relationship has been found to change responses on the Adult Attachment Interview results from insecure to “earned secure” (Main, 2002)” Note the timeline, it’s almost double of the upper duration of an LE.
I’ve attached to 4 women in my life. I invested in 2 of them. I’m married to one of them. 3 of the women I attached to were LOs. I didn’t intend to attach to 2 of them.
Relations can change patterns or reinforce them. LEs seem to make a bad situation worse. My marriage to a loving, stable woman who was willing to take a chance on me allowed me to achieve an “earned secure attachment.” I was wrong, not everyone I cared about took off on me or was taken from me. I found one woman who didn’t.
Does that make any sense?
Scharnhorst,
“Relations can change patterns or reinforce them. ”
Yes, I totally agree. I was just saying that avoidants … avoid. I have a guy friend who is an avoidant. He hasn’t so much as had sex let alone a girlfriend in years, and the women he has been with have had to chase him. An avoidant doesn’t just seek sex but avoid emotional attachment. Sometimes he/she doesn’t seek anything. They either don’t need it or fear it.
Scharnhorst,
I was thinking, too, that people often use the word avoidant or commitment-phobe to describe someone, but that person is not available to them. A year later he/she might meet someone who they are “emotionally available” for, to borrow today’s vernacular. I’m not tying to label you; I’m just saying I have heard people describe their current partner as avoidant but sometimes (and certainly not always) it’s based on the dynamic and relationship with that current partner. Or that partner isn’t ready for a relationship. Leaves that relationship, only to be ready for someone else who, for whatever reason, they click better with emotionally.
@Beth,
I totally get blocking as self protection. That’s why I do it. To spare myself the impacts of LO carrying merrily on their way… whether they’re gameplaying or not is besides the point. It’s my sanity I’m ringfencing. Also I often can’t trust myself not to indulge in distant gameplaying myself when under the influence of an LE…
@Thomas
I’d check LO’s FB to see whether he was single.
I was looking for a reason to not look anymore.
If he’d found someone, it would be another way for me to move on.
I stopped looking a while back. Every day that passes makes it easier to not do it.
@Beth,
I can’t look really. I wouldn’t stop feeling this way even if LO was with someone new. Seeing their image without having them in my life just makes me feel very hurt. Whether they are single or not… and even now, though painful I’m glad they’re ghosting and/or blocked because a single ‘hey what’s up?’ Out of the blue at a weak moment and I’d be straight back on the hook. Which is 10% their fault for playing me so well, and 90% my fault for spending so long in the past teaching them the rules! My limerent behaviour ended up being quite chaotic in the end (as I’ve said elsewhere my limerence for them came on strong, vanished at the point of fruition then reignited at the point of their subsequent withdrawal). They’re best off leaving me alone, as I’m sure that if they were here recounting our various encounters I’d not come off it looking too good either…
I’m generally limerent for LOs that I know deep down are not what i need, or actually desire for true intimacy… not 100% sure what I am after… but when this one proposed something more solid I ‘came to my senses’ and ran a mile… only to be aching for them now.
This is not a pattern with all my LEs (a few scattered over the years) but it is a dynamic that played out similarly with my first LE when I was a young man. Oh. The melodrama. So indulgent.
Marcia,
DA, FA, are labels, a description. I agree with you that you may not click with someone and they click with the next person. It happens. People can have a lot of relationships in their lifetime. But, if they dissatisfying relationships of the same kind, there’s a problem and it’s not with the partners. LO #2’s poison was cheaters, LO #4’s poison was Narcs. My poison was an unhappy woman who saw me as part of the solution, not the problem.
There are assessment tools professionals can use to assess your style. It provides a basis for exploring further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_measures If I was doing couples counseling, one of the first things I’d do is give the couple an Attachment Style survey. It would tell you a lot of what you’re dealing with.
Is there a practical value to knowing your attachment style? It can help you understand yourself. If you’ve had a history of dissatisfying relationships, it can help you understand why. There’s some good information in “Attached” by Heller and Levine but it leaves some very important information out.
Why did I care what LO #2’s attachment style was? It was one more piece of evidence that I hadn’t missed anything, that nothing I could have said or done would have likely altered the outcome. That information helped me lighten up on myself. I could quit replaying the tapes and let go.
LO #4 said she was an avoidant. She should know. She’s a PsyD and from I came to learn from her, it fits.
Marion Solomon said it’s unlikely two avoidants can have a stable, long-lasting relationship. That’s true but I think 2 DAs could have a positively delightful relationship provided they met some very specific criteria. I think the odds of 2 DAs that met those criteria coming together would be pretty small. LO #4 meets two of them. I’d have to get to know her to determine the others. Not meeting any one of them could be a deal breaker.
Scharnhorst,
Thanks for your reply. I have taken an attachment style quiz before and I am a fearful avoidant, which doesn’t surprise me. I guess I am missing a “relationship chip.” I just get them. I get the lust phase, but after that wears off, you end with a friend, and I’ve always had, in terms of friendship, closeness, understanding, and frankly, fun, a better time/connection with women and gay men. I had one LO who became an actual serious boyfriend, but once the LE wore off, well, he was some kind of friend, but I did not feel anywhere near as close to him as I did my best friend, and I think a lot of the closeness with the LO was due on sex. Without that, I wouldn’t have picked him out as a friend.
My comparison of the difference between a crush and limerence:
Not thinking about my crush is as easy as putting out a fart, but not thinking about my LO is as easy as putting the fart back in.
I like that. Very true.
“Not thinking about my crush is as easy as putting out a fart, but not thinking about my LO is as easy as putting the fart back in.”
Thanks for the vivid imagery, Matt. After reading that, the least I can say is I had one good laugh today. Oh, and there’s a lot of truth in that too, as Marcia says. 😛
😄😄😄👍
Dear Thomas, I’m sitting here sipping on my wine and getting misty eye reading everyone’s input. We are all such sensitive deeply feeling souls, if that’s one thing that I’ve gathered unites us. I’ve been meaning to say this to you for a while now as I drift in and out of this blog (triggers like Lo following me on social media would bring me right back here) but even if you are a gay male and I’m a straight female, I think I sense a connection with you (don’t worry, you’re not my next LO, haha, my own isn’t leaving my head anytime soon…) Just based on what I remember you’ve shared so far on here. Our stories are so similar! Your LO seems to be orbiting you (yes, that’s a term they use now in modern dating world), you recognize the high behind the casual albeit seldom encounters and the clock resets again. Looking at their social media hurts to the core and yet we constantly struggle whether to lurk or not to lurk. We go into story telling, detox, and everything else that goes into this process. Your LO seems like a charismatic man that is fully aware how to keep you on a hook. So does mine.
@AS…
Definitely so… but do you feel a growing strength from your association in this place? I hope so.
The ‘hook’ is what we give our LOs. Once we are ready, we can take it back…
My LO is moderately handsome (I mean… I’m forcing myself to say that… my instinct is that he is utterly beautiful)… and if I’m generous with him he responds with charm… but I have in the past willingly facilitated interactions where I allow myself to focus on his charms.
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeX8drgioLs – “Look Who’s Talking” (1989)
I was reading George Segal’s obit and I thought of this. My wife and I howled through this movie in 1989. There are some other great scenes with George Segal, in one of which he says, “I’m in therapy…”
We could laugh at it, we weren’t living it.
Regarding the above discussion about avoidants. Yes, it’s maybe easier to just throw a label on someone and we certainly ALL have traits of some of the features. I personally have found that I’m almost “becoming” an avoidant (dismissive type to be specific) after being a classic anxious preoccupied type my entire life. How is this possible, I even ask myself.
Well, my current LO (not sure if the first one counts as I was in my early 20s then and very naive and immature so that experience may have simply been just a crush I’ve obsessed about for months then it suddenly stopped… ahhh to be there again)… so my current LO almost taught me how to be avoidant. For the entire time we’ve carried on this pseudo relationship (mostly sexual), I’ve learned to mirror his behavior out of image presevation. So in practical terms, if I texted him and he didn’t respond right away, I would back off until he did. If he never did, I would wait days to initiate contact again. It was pure torture. If I asked a question about feelings or something personal, he would clam up and retreated to the point where I would then back off again and left it alone. In the beginning of this painful cycle, I would still gently press at times by asking for explanation and all I would ever get is something like “I am not good at talking feelings” or “I suck at this.” Kind of a mindfuck to say the least. I was beside myself trying to figure out for years what makes a highly intelligent man with an important job lack the ability to communicate. In person, as you may wonder, it was slightly different, he would share bits and pieces of his life but still nothing too insightful. I kept poking the bear, my anxious nature wanting to know more and more. Ironically, at some point towards the end, he actually said he told me some personal stuff he never told others and I thought to myself – really? Because I still feel as I don’t know you.
Back to DAs and how this affected me overall. Now I’ve turned into one of them because I’ve realized it’s MUCH EASIER to avoid a conversation than having to explain myself. I’ve learned to suppress myself and no, I don’t think it’s healthy but damn, it’s just easier. So just like my LO have done so in the past, I am these days more likely to not return texts from friends if I find them uncomfortable, I no longer overshare with others, I’ve stopped initiating contact with friends. Is it useful? At times. I no longer have to deal with fear of rejection because I just assume it will happen anyway. Kwim?
And lastly, my DA LO was extremely sexual but withdrawn emotionally. Sex was off the charts but no affection whatsoever. It’s as he didn’t know how to hug a woman properly. No coffee or glass of water offered afterwards. I look back and feel nothing but sadness.
Would love to sit down with a therapist and discuss this one.
Anxious Soul,
” Now I’ve turned into one of them because I’ve realized it’s MUCH EASIER to avoid a conversation than having to explain myself. I’ve learned to suppress myself and no, I don’t think it’s healthy but damn, it’s just easier. ”
I have found I have felt somewhat better in the last few days because I have channeled my energy into a side project that has nothing to do with people! So instead of feeling down that I texted a friend to see if she wanted to get together and she said she’d let me know or emailed another with an issue that was obviously bothering me and she ignored my email but sent me a gift (don’t want the gift!), I am occupied with something else. So I am far less disappointed in their paltry efforts. Yes, there is suppression going on, but what else can you do? People will only give you what they want to give you.
“People will only give you what they want to give you.”
^^^ THIS
Anxious Soul,
“People will only give you what they want to give you.”
Not to belabor the point, but don’t ever think that people are only giving you what they CAN give you. They are giving you what they CHOOSE to give you. If it’s crumbs, they are giving the rest of the cookie to somebody else.
Hm, the discussion around attachment styles is interesting. I don’t know what the terms mean precisely, so I’ll avoid using them. However, in my LEs, what I always wanted was for my LOs, who were invariably men who couldn’t talk about their feelings, to turn around and tell me about all the wonderful feelings they’d suddenly developed for me during the course our our “friendship”! Oh my!!
It’s possible that my LOs at certain points were closer to me than to other people in their lives. But such fleeting instances of emotional intimacy don’t translate into limerence or love, and I think mutual limerence is the endgame in mind.
I think some people can satisfy all or most of their intimacy needs through casual sex, with a bit of friendship thrown in. These people may not see the point of a committed relationship – as long as us limerents keep doing such a fine job of meeting all their needs (sex and friendship) and asking for nothing in return, in the hope they (LO) will one day just magically “get it” and “declare themselves”.
Why did this or that LO stay? Because I made it easy for him. He had so much to gain and little to lose. Why did I stay? Because I was hoping to win the jackpot (of emotional reciprocation) some day. I thought, if I was generous and patient and understanding, one day I’ll get what I want. Now I realise relationships don’t really work like this and partners will happily take advantage of me – if I let them.
Having said this, in hindsight, I’m a little bit amused by the “arrogance” of my LOs. Do they (the LOs) really think that attractive humans do nice things for them for no reason? Because of their own merits? At the very least, my LOs must have had intact self-esteem. At worst, they’re delusional about their own charms. Either way, they can’t have suffered extreme anxiety or loneliness during childhood. My LOs seemed to believe they were entitled to all good things in life.
@Sammy,
Like you I’m pretty new to the whole avoidant/dismissive thing…(though in normal operating mode I see a lot of myself in those definitions).
My last LO had some things going for him, young, stature, pretty good looking. He knew it too. But we talked enough for me to see that he was a bundle of insecurities and he’d had some rough experiences growing up.
“My LOs seemed to believe they were entitled to all good things in life.”
…but my last LO certainly behaved/presented like that… and I see now that he lost friends because they felt taken for granted or taken advantage of. If you wanted him to get a round in at the pub, that always needed to be explicitly stated. Every time. People get tired of takers who don’t give. Obviously I twigged that as long as beer was flowing he’d stick around, devious limerent brain! 😀
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Xrcp6k8VE
When I was working with the EAP counselor about LO #4, she said, “The woman is catnip to you.”
Take it away, DrL..!
Also,
This JUST happened and surely is not like a part of anything we think of as a crush…
-Looked at geological map to help a student.
-Glanced incidentally over LOs hometown on map
-Felt a sharp chest pain, grimaces.
-Wanted to/fantasised about LO.
-Was 100% clear that the object of doing so was to stop the jolt of pain.
But it passed really quite quickly, I’m feeling fine now. A few weeks ago that would have ruined the rest of my day!
Progress!
But surely whereas many limerents will recognise that pain response, I don’t think of crushes as involving that. Maybe mooning and longing, maybe a darker side of things such as feeling inadequate or unworthy of your object… but not… ‘this is tangibly painful to hold, I must pursue or ideate LO for relief from this’.
It is in this phase (as many here have said) that the nature of the LE is clearest. At the beginning the behaviour was just as compulsive, but the pleasurable results never really invited inspection I suppose.
*to be clear…
“Wanted to CONTACT/fantasised about LO.”
Thomas,
It’s a huge difference, isn’t it?
I’ve certainly thought about old crushes but I’ve never even searched for them on FB. Not googled.
But LO…even with all the pain and awfulness that was part of that experience, a memory came flooding back this morning out of the blue. And with it came the warm feeling that he used to bring. Plus an irrational longing for him.
Rumination has lately focused on the unpleasant memories.
Gotta keep my brain focused on those.
Yeah. The warm feelings… or the stock memories you replay until they’re almost a bit blurred in your memory…
Then OUCH! 🙄💔
Also, the pain is near the heart and so sharp, isn’t it?
It’s the worst.
Keep going, Thomas. You’ll get there
Honestly,
When I read here about chest pains triggered by grief/loss of LO. I get them ~50% of the time that LO comes into my mind… but there’s fluctuations… sometimes it can be several times in a day I’ll just think out of the blue ‘Oh no! WHY can’t we be together?’ With a sharp jolt.
As I’ve said… all the while knowing that when it was possible I knew it wasn’t right. I honestly don’t know how I hold both things in my head simultaneously… the feeling of incompatibility married with the urge to just keep keep keep staying in contact.
Good to find focus on any perceived negatives. Elsewhere Dr. L talks about feeling this resistance inside to maintaining NC. The only option is to ‘attack’ the resistance. I like that image, because it is proactive- not ignore, or accept, or endure. Attack it!
Good luck Beth… so many here on this journey, or visiting to reflect on journeys past. The only way out is through.
I wonder where the pain ACTUALLY comes from? I think chest pain is associated with other periods of deep grief. But obviously my heart isn’t actually being injured by LOs absence…
So it must be in our heads. Somewhere.
Could be a trauma response. https://medical.mit.edu/faqs/common-reactions-to-traumatic-events
When LO #2 told me she was seeing someone after we broke up, it felt like someone kicked me in the stomach and I thought I’d barf on the spot. It was just like a cop show where the rookie barfs at his/her first gruesome crime scene.
Then, the most wonderful thing happened. An overwhelming sense of calm washed over me like someone hit me with a shot of Demerol. I didn’t care about anything for about an hour.
There’s a great description of that in Robert J. Neborsky: “A Clinical Model for the Comprehensive Treatment of Trauma Using an Affect Experiencing-Attachment Theory Approach.” It’s a chapter in “Healing Trauma – Attachment, Mind, Body and Brain” by Seigel and Solomon. He used the example of someone being trapped in a burning building and feeling great panic. Then some system kicks in and floods the person with endorphines (?) or something that take it all away and a sense of peace and acceptance take over.
The problem with Neborsky’s explanation is it doesn’t last. But, it can keep you from barfing on the keyboard.
Maybe DrL can do a blog on “The Trauma of Limerence.”
Yep. Could be a good one…
I think it’s adrenaline-induced contraction of the intercostal muscles, Thomas. But, not sure why that happens…
It is called Takotsubo cardiomyopathy and its excruciating. I’ve experienced it several times during my last LE. I thought I might be having a heart attack.
So glad that’s behind me now!
@Jaideux,
Yes! I’ve had it in the past with coincident palpitations… it can really freak you out… as well as scaring me into think I must actually be mad… clutching my chest and deeply frowning at the misery of it all… but completely out of the blue. Also there’s part of me now that wouldn’t in reality want to give LO the ego boost of my melodramatic limerent acting out! 😀
Early on, one thing I noticed was that if I was on the elliptical working out and I started ruminating about LO #2 or LO #4, my pulse would increase 20-30 BPM.
It was consistent.
“It is called Takotsubo cardiomyopathy and its excruciating. I’ve experienced it several times during my last LE. I thought I might be having a heart attack.
So glad that’s behind me now!”
@Jaideux. That sounds terrible – commiserations.
“I wonder where the pain ACTUALLY comes from? I think chest pain is associated with other periods of deep grief. But obviously my heart isn’t actually being injured by LOs absence…
So it must be in our heads. Somewhere.”
@Thomas. I could well be wrong, but I was under the impression limerents experience pain in the chest area when they sense rejection is imminent. If your LO wasn’t present when you had this pain, could it be some memory of real and/or perceived rejection that triggered the sensation?
Most of my pain seems to be concentrated in my head/above my neck. Sometimes I feel like a giant head with a body attached. (A jellyfish?) However, I have experienced a distinct lump in the throat/desire to cry (immediately after rejection) and also a sharp but fleeting pain in the chest, which for me related to strong feelings of uncertainty. (I was getting very mixed signals from LO).
I think the pain is really in our bodies, but is linked to the emotional centres in our brains. I.e. heartache can make us hurt physically. I mean, I guess that’s why it’s called heartache, right? What an apt name! Our insides literally hurt when we’re scorned by our LOs.
The contractions I’ve experienced, though, weren’t anywhere near as severe as what other people have described here. To me, the pain sounds like an anxiety attack that mimics a heart attack, and the sufferer might have to talk themselves out of the belief they’re dying (should medical tests confirm they have healthy hearts, that is). My younger sister isn’t limerent, but she has had these sorts of chest pains in the past when she was under a lot of stress.
Big hugs.
That’s a massively important insight, Thomas. It’s evidence of your brain having learned the habit to seek (temporary) comfort from limerent reverie.
Actually I think I was unclear…
Rather than rumination being my immediate urge (which is what I implied, I think) What I meant was that initially I really wanted to contact LO… and was keenly aware (as I am recently) that this was to stop the painful sensation. Rather than at other points in the past where I didn’t think that it was the pain that was the stimulus for the behaviour…
Its the difference between thinking ‘I feel this pain because I want to see LO’ and realising that actually ‘I want to see LO because I feel this pain’. But I think this self knowledge has come from learning from others in this community.
However for some moments after the compulsive urge to contact him passed (I’ve long since destroyed any means of that) I did indulge the fantasy of our next meeting… I did still rehearse briefly what I would say… I did imagine he would understand and we’d start something back up again…
It felt positively irrational even while I was doing it. So…
Still bargaining I guess!
I’m so glad I’ve found this site. I thought I was the only one with chest pains related to LE issues.
My LO had me as a favorite for a couple of years – showering me with ffusive praise publicly & privately, advocating for me, pulling me into all crucial projects he was doing. I worked my butt off to make each a huge success. Not for his sake, but because I like the work.
Recently I have been replaced by new favorites (was bound to happen at some point – he loves new shiny pennies).
I have been feeling abandoned, desolate…. Jealousy as I have never experienced in decades has come back… reminiscent of inconsistent affection from caregivers in childhood. I feel pure misery. Hearing some posters use the term “Trauma” here made me realize “Yes! That sounds exactly what it is”
Hi 🙂
Maybe you could watch some dr Gabor Mate’s videos about trauma and addiction. That helped me a lot!
So … latest update on my gay boy potential LO (Gym Boy). The last time I saw him he held the door open for me and waited for me to step through. The whole night we’d been following each other around at a discreet distance and trying to engineer a “chance meeting”. This was it. (He’d initiated endless eye contact, but kept looking away again when I returned his gaze. In the end, I walked down the stairs and then walked up the stairs again within seconds, so I’d bump into him coming down the stairs. I didn’t want to interrupt him while he was texting).
I stopped, locked eyes with him this time round, cradled his head in my hands, and exclaimed “Baby Boy!” (both a term of endearment and a greeting). He grinned delightedly and wished me a Happy New Year. I said “Likewise” and pressed my cheek against his cheek in a butterfly kiss. His skin/beard felt so soft, like silk or rose petals. We then disengaged and went about our business, as if nothing had happened. But everyone who saw/heard the exchange was smiling.
Earlier in the evening, I’d witnessed him having a pleasant social interaction with someone else, someone who was potentially interested in him also. I felt a flash of anger – nay, jealousy. The flash of jealousy disappeared almost as soon as it appeared. Gym Boy looked at me for reassurance following this episode. He looked rueful/guilty. I assumed a neutral expression: “No judgement here”.
I have come to the conclusion that my feelings for Gym Boy constitute a crush – a mutual crush, no less. (Lucky me!!) But it’s not limerence. There’s physical attraction, flirtation, and even jealousy. But there’s no mental pain or desperate overwhelming longing involved. Yes, when I embrace him, I feel like I’ve died and gone to heaven. But I don’t think about him when he’s not around. And I accept his right to have other admirers. (The need for exclusivity is absent).
I also have a crush on a straight boy at the moment, the straight boy who makes my coffee in the morning. Let’s call him “Barista Boy”. He seems awfully fond of me too. He stares at me with those great blue eyes of his, calls me “Man” every three seconds (which I find enormously endearing), and has my coffee order finished before I even reach the counter. He held the door open for me once too and, when I thanked him, he looked down and blushed. We both experience obvious nervous energy around each other. We’re aware of each other. We both want the other’s approval. There’s some kind of mental connection there.
Of course, him being a straight boy and all, there’s no possibility he’s limerent for me. So what is all the agreeable, ingratiating behaviour about? Why do I feel like he enjoys serving me a tiny bit more than he enjoys serving his other customers? Why do I get all the smiles and waves and thumbs-up? I have reached the conclusion that Barista Boy hero-worships me for some weird reason.
In other words, I think heterosexual males can have CRUSHES on other males, crushes that we might call “hero-worship”, but heterosexual males (by definition) don’t experience LIMERENCE for other males. Barista Boy and I are currently enjoying a mutual crush on each other – a mutual crush which will probably end as soon as he realises I have feet of clay, like all men. (He is considerably younger than me, and probably sees me as some kind of avuncular figure).
This discovery about the differences between crushes and limerence has cheered me up no end. When I was younger, I had some friendships with straight males and they always turned toxic really, really fast. I think it’s because these friendships, unbeknownst to either party, had somehow veered off into limerent limbo territory.
At one point, I was even worried that I could never be friends with straight men – that straight men and gay men are intrinsically incompatible and destined always to hurt each other and “be at each other’s throats”, locked in a bitter-but-undeclared war of mutual destruction. (I wonder how many women feel that way about the men in their lives and how many men feel that way about women? This could be the only half-sarcastic complaint of every married person alive.)
The crush-verses-limerence distinction has kind of given me the key to having successful relationships with straight males. There have been straight men in my life who enjoyed hugs/physical affection (sometimes way more than I did!) There have been straight men in my life open to emotional intimacy. Many of these friendships I’ve had with straight men, which included physical affection and emotional intimacy, never resulted in feelings of awkwardness for anyone. Why was there no awkwardness? Because limerence wasn’t a factor in these bonds?
In conclusion, limerence seems to involve an element of pain not present in crushes. Chemistry is a vital ingredient of both limerence and crushes. However, the limerent says “I need, I can’t live without” and the crusher says “Don’t mind if I do”. 😛
Sammy,
Why don’t you ask one of these guys out or do something to move things forward? I guess I don’t understand having a crush and not acting on it. If I remember correctly, you are single and if they are, why not? I start to loose interest in a crush, over time, if nothing happens.
“Why don’t you ask one of these guys out or do something to move things forward?”
@Marcia. I honestly don’t know the answer to that question. I think I have trouble believing anyone could like me once they get to know me. I’m so boring (in my own estimate). And yet there’s this weird contradiction in my personality in that I’m naturally very charming. I charm the socks off people without even realising that that’s what I’m doing.
I get feedback from my peer group that I’m “well-liked” and “popular” and I think to myself, “Who are they talking about?” Do I have an enchanting doppelganger who runs around the place, using my name? I’ve never been able to shake this image I have of myself as a “permanent outsider”.
I think my distorted self-image dates back to childhood. I had a high-functioning form of autism that went undiagnosed. I was good at academic stuff, but couldn’t read body language or participate in small talk. The other kids didn’t invite me to join their games. (Yes, I really was standing there in the playground, an eight-year-old with a very solemn look on his face, waiting for a formal invitation to hopscotch or what have you). I didn’t know how to sidle up to my peers and just join in.
I’ve caught up now in terms of small talk/reading body language, but still have trouble believing I’m attractive or desirable. And yet, if I didn’t have at least a modicum of sexiness, my charm offensives would fall flat. I feel that the man who charms people isn’t really me. He’s a character I invented in order to help me function socially, a mask I don and discard at will. The real me is very, very boring. The only thing I truly excel at is spotting grammar and spelling mistakes in printed documents! 😛
Also, I was friends with this straight guy once (the younger brother of my LO) and his chief criticism of me was … yes … limerence itself! I thought if only I could purge myself of every last trace of limerence, then finally people would feel at ease around me. I would at last be a respectable member of the human race i.e. exactly the same as everybody else. I’ve come to realise people can’t edit out huge chunks of their personalities and maybe it’s unfair to ask someone not to be a limerent if they are.
In other words, I’ve spent most of my life trying to be various things I’m not. (Not gay. Not autistic. Not limerent). Would anyone want the real me? Am I willing to give anyone a chance to accept or reject the real me? I feel safer hiding behind my mask and charming the socks off people. 😛
“Every core injured adult child has to live with the tormenting, inescapable question: “Am I good enough to be loved by you?” – DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED? BY SHARI SCHREIBER, M.A. (https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/)
Sam,
“Would anyone want the real me? Am I willing to give anyone a chance to accept or reject the real me? I feel safer hiding behind my mask and charming the socks off people.”
Ah, I know that feeling well. Now, I would go after someone I had a crush on, but I think I’ve always hidden behind what I call “the song and dance of blondeness and sex.” If I didn’t keep them entertained, they’d move on to the next woman, and sometimes they did. The male attention span always seemed a bit stubby. 🙂 I’ve never been good at letting my guard down if sex is involved.
@Scharn. Thanks for the link. 🙂
“I’ve always hidden behind what I call “the song and dance of blondeness and sex.””
@Marcia. Wow. I love that description. And it does make you sound entertaining! 😛
Actually, what I think these two young men have in common is they both seem hyper-alert, energised, pumped full of adrenaline. They’re like hunters, on the prowl, hyper-aware of other people and things in their physical environments. (Dr.L might know better and say it’s not adrenaline, but noradrenaline, that does this).
There IS something both sexy and intimidating about people who give off this kind of energy.
In other words, I think there’s a good chance these two fellows are limerents, or latent limerents, or experiencing that restless mental state we all know so well. But that doesn’t mean they’re limerent for me specifically, or that I’m the cause of their behaviour. They could both have LOs tucked away somewhere I know nothing about and be struggling with their own demons of unrequited longing.
For example, Gym Boy was once using his phone and I walked up quietly behind him and playfully patted him on the shoulder. He almost jumped out of his skin and squealed a four-letter word. Of course, I backed away in a hurry and said sorry. When he saw me, he softened visibly and said hello. We could both see the humour in the situation. See what I mean about adrenaline?
I now only approach Gym Boy from the front. I don’t want to scare him again. And I wait for him to initiate the conversation. I tend not to hug him, as I noticed when I touch his torso, he remains as stiff as a board. I think he becomes easily overwhelmed by sensory stimuli – again due to the adrenaline in his system. I’m not offended by his aloofness, as many autistic people also have weird preferences. We only liked to be hugged in certain ways, certain pressures, etc.
Once, prior to understanding his preferences, I hugged him and he almost fainted in my arms. I had to hug him a second time to steady him and send him on his way and let him know there was nothing to be embarrassed about. He seemed light-headed and I certainly wasn’t judging him for that. He also seems very interested in whether my shirts are wet or not. (It’s either rain or sweat or both).
But I’ve given him so many chances to be close to me and he hasn’t taken any of them. I no longer believe I’m his LO, though once I thought there was a possibility. He’s wasted too many “easy shots” at closeness. I haven’t asked him out on a date, but I have made it really easy for him to signal mutual liking in an unambiguous way. Maybe he feels that he too has given me too many “easy shots”?
If I’m on his list of “favourite people” at all, I’m probably number 123 or something. 😛
A story that might indicate where we stand with each other (platonic friends only) is one Christmas I brought him a gift. The gift was three novelty jockstraps. (Don’t ask – it’s a gay thing. Our tribe loves designer underwear). Gym Boy unwrapped the gift and said it was “too much”. He accepted one jockstrap (and not the colour I would have chosen!) and let me keep the other two for myself.
I think this shows we are real friends. He had a chance to exploit me, and he didn’t take it. Also, he let me “save face” by accepting a downgraded version of the gift I wanted to give. I think we both walked away from the exchange feeling good, masculine egos intact. I also learnt something about myself – apparently, I have great taste in clothing compared to him. Haha! (He picked fluorescent-yellow when he would have looked stunning in pale-blue). 😛
Sammy,
“There IS something both sexy and intimidating about people who give off this kind of energy.”
I think every LO can be intimidating as hell (even a crush can). On top of that, I get very shy around someone I am attracted to. But then I start to get disgusted with my own ineffectualness, and I started gearing myself up. It may take weeks or even months to get up the nerve, but I start plotting on how to get the LO alone. And then the moment arrives. Making that pass takes everything I have at the time, and if I get a no, it can be soul-crushing, but what’s the alternative?
“Making that pass takes everything I have at the time, and if I get a no, it can be soul-crushing, but what’s the alternative?”
@Marcia. I guess there isn’t really any alternative.
I’ll come clean with you. I don’t want to ask out Gym Boy because he might say no. (Fear of rejection). He might say he only likes me as a friend. (That would bruise my ego, implicit social humiliation). I’ll feel embarrassed, immediately afterwards, at having misread the interaction as potentially romantic when it wasn’t. (Guilt, shame). My mum really drummed those negative emotions into me as a kid, and I’ve never been able to outgrow them. I’m hopelessly neurotic.
What if he stops talking to me? What if he starts avoiding me altogether? Even when he looks away from me – it hurts my heart. I want him to look at me and to keep looking at me. I don’t want his interest to wane. I don’t want him to turn away. He often looks at me, but I don’t know what the looks mean. Come closer? Go away?
Asking him out would be a relief – I’ll know where we stand. Seeing him won’t make me feel more excited than seeing my other friends. He’ll be just one more face in the crowd. “No worries, mate!”
Asking him out could be a disaster – he’ll give a negative response and the “tension” I think exists between us will dissolve. I won’t be able to enjoy the fantasy of us being compatible anymore. I don’t think I’d feel angry. But I do think I’d feel very, very embarrassed. (What was I thinking? Why do I always pursue unattainable types?)
So, what do you think regarding my feelings for Gym Boy? I said it was a crush. But could it be the early stages of limerence, because obviously I get some pleasure from thinking about him. At the moment, these thoughts are voluntary and not all-consuming. I’m fairly detached from the whole situation. If HE asked me out, on the other hand, the answer at present would be yes – a definite yes.
The nice thing about having a crush on someone of the same “tribe” is that we’re more or less social equals. Maybe that’s why things haven’t spiralled dangerously out of control? I don’t really plot to get people alone, or fret about ineffectiveness. I just spend more time “reading the tea-leaves”, trying to get a clearer signal. This habit, of course, leads to rumination. (This habit IS rumination!)
Here’s a thought. What if my friendship with him improved rather than deteriorated following disclosure – as long as I handled the (probable) rejection gracefully and don’t sulk about it like a big baby? Am I mature enough to accept polite rejection from a peer? I think it all comes down to how fragile one feels psychologically…
I think there’s a less than 50% chance he’ll say yes. Those aren’t good odds. I just can’t picture us as ever being more than friends. And yet we’re not really friends if we can’t communicate without nerves getting in the way. I think he’s too good for me, in the sense of being a lot “cooler” than me. I can’t imagine what he sees in me, if he sees anything – my hair is starting to go grey! He in turn is probably offended that I interact in a much more natural way with my other friends, who are considerably less attractive than he is. Maybe he feels rejected? Maybe he feels like the ugly duckling?
If you were Australian, Marcia, (which I assume you’re not), maybe we could hire you as a romantic go-between? You could invite him out to high tea and delicately inquire, between mouthfuls of gorgeous featherlight scone, about his opinion of “that dreadful Sammy character”. Then you could invite me out to high tea the following week and relay, between sips of champagne and sly smiles at the hunky waiter, what he said. “No worries, mate!” 🙂
Hi Sammy,
I think you have to ask yourself what you want. Do you want things to change between you or are you happy with the way things are? I always assume people want to move on these delicious feelings of attraction, but from what I’ve read on this blog, a lot of people (not just the married ones) don’t want to. They want to plug into the “charge,” so to speak, experience it and then unplug it. I just wish there was a box people would check early on in the process, so one would know if this was a “feeler” or a “mover.” So one wouldn’t waste weeks or even months wondering why nothing was happening. 🙂
What would happen if he said no? Well, life would go on. You would continue to treat him as you always had. If he treats you differently, that’s on him. Rejection is always a possibility, but we don’t want to dwell on that.
Now, if I was going to be your wingwoman, the 3 of us would hang out together. Have a few drinks … if the moment was right, I’d make some obvious comments about the two of you getting together … and then excuse myself to let the evening unfold for the two of you. 🙂 I actually had a friend do this for me years ago. It was …. uh …. not exactly the subtle approach … he looked at this guy and told him I wanted to sleep with him! …. but it worked. 🙂
Clip of the Day: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/futilitydemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276004
“Making that pass takes everything I have at the time, and if I get a no, it can be soul-crushing, but what’s the alternative?”
The best reason to take the shot is you take uncertainty and, often, regret out of the picture.
They say the pain of regret is worse than the pain of rejection. They also say as we age, we tend to regret things we didn’t say or do more than things we did. I believe that.
I asked LO #2 to marry me and she declined. I disclosed to LO #4 and after a rocky few months, we ended the acquaintance. I don’t regret either action and there’s no real sense of “Unfinished Business.”
Scharnhorst,
“They also say as we age, we tend to regret things we didn’t say or do more than things we did. I believe that.”
Yes, I was hurt and disappointed if I got a no, but I never regretted any of the times I made my feelings known.
“The best reason to take the shot is you take uncertainty and, often, regret out of the picture.”
Yes, and it’s exhilarating. It’s a make-or-break moment.
Song of the Day: “Alone” – Heart (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cw1ng75KP0
Yeah, I’m stuck in the 80s…
From the album “Bad Animals.” I remember reading a review at the time. The reviewer said that for one of the best bands in the world, noted for some very uplifting songs, this was a collection of really depressing stuff.
The other gem on the album is “Who Will You Run To?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM44F-M78Vs This came out at the height of the LO #2 madness. LO #2 told me she was going to make it work with my successor, a guy whom she told that she didn’t like his kids, wouldn’t come with him to his next duty station, and that I was still her best friend. Oh yeah, he had issues in the bedroom. Seriously. I could have written this.
Hi,
Spouse of someone who had something resembling an LO fairly recently.
When SO first revealed the state of affairs to me ~1 year ago (a 2.5-year waxing and waning romantic fixation on his best friend), I googled about long-lasting crushes and eventually landed here. When I sent him the intro to limerence, he recognized it instantly. “That’s it!” he said.
We did everything we were supposed to do. Quit the friendship cold turkey. Got into individual and couples therapy. (His therapist was skeptical of the concept, and preferred to categorize it as a mostly one-sided emotional affair. But we used the same playbook to extricate him.) Realized after a few months of painful discussions that talking about his feelings for her wasn’t helping them subside, so we stopped doing that, too. We’ve put a ton of energy into our relationship, energy that was missing for too long. And things are much, much better.
But here’s a weird thing: he now questions whether it was really limerence after all. We went from the period when I was worried there was something untoward and he effectively lied to me and hid his feelings (that went on for over two years)…to the brutal revelation and ripping off of the proverbial bandaid…to this place where he almost denies it really happened. I’m not sure what to do with this, honestly. On the one hand, it’s good to focus on us. I don’t miss the ghost in our relationship. I don’t want to get hung up on semantics. On the other hand, the further he is from the experience, and the more he forgets how intense his feelings were (and the effect they had on our relationship), the more…gaslit?…I feel. As though all that agony was me making much ado over very little. And there’s a subtext, which is that if I’d been properly attentive/engaged in our marriage the whole time, none of this would have happened. Mostly he remembers wanting to have her as a friend. And being sad that this isn’t an option still available to him.
So here’s my question: does one’s accurate memory of limerence fade as the obsession subsides? And if so, is this fading for the best, or does it indicate a concerning lack of self-awareness that could come back and hurt us?
For what it’s worth, 2.5 years seems way too long for a normal crush on a friend, especially when one is married. Limerence really seemed to fit. And yet I don’t think that even at its most intense, the obsession was so all-consuming as to block out his ability to work, parent, etc. He’s always been (compared to me) pretty emotionally level–not a lot of extreme highs and lows–and he’s also better at multitasking, so maybe that’s why?
@Katie,
Totally agree with Sammy…
Also for me I can tell you the memory of the intensity certainly fades. I’m actually becoming good friends with an ex LO ( from 20 years ago). I remember how nuts I was at the time, but only because I DID certain things (a little mild stalking, made the odd scene at this or that pub – pretty mortifying really). 20 years is long enough… I certainly don’t feel even a twinge of limerence for him now. But then I have a current LO, and it seems that if one has serial LOs (not always the case…) then there is only room for one at a time.
There are a couple of other more recent ex-LOs, and again- though they might trigger me slightly more if I see them – the limerence has certainly passed.
I think limerence can feel like it is totally irrational, so once out of it reconnecting with that feeling is very difficult. There is also often a period of denial during no-contact… which could be him deceiving himself as much as you. This could lead to bargaining (both internally, and I guess possibly with you). If (and seriously it is only an IF) that were to happen I’d precede with caution… and obviously this site is here for everyone affected by limerence including spouses… so there’s people here who know where you’re coming from.
However, while it sounds like limerence, and was a big upheaval, another way of looking at this is that the label doesn’t matter. If these were the events:
1) husband becomes infatuated by another woman.
2) you both identify a potential issue.
3) you both investigate the issue.
4) you make changes to your relationship which leads to it working better.
Then there’s been a positive outcome. While him slipping into a state of denial is likely very frustrating, it really isn’t uncommon… and tbh, if this series of events needs to be revisited in the future I would do the old thing of sticking to ‘I’ messages and description rather than labels…
‘You were in Limerence…’ is debatable.
‘You told me you had become infatuated with your female friend for 2.5 years.’ is less so.
In terms of whether you put enough effort into your marriage its difficult to judge, every relationship is different. Also, if you took your eye off the ball then you wouldn’t be the first or last spouse to do that! One could equally say it takes two to tango and your spouse could have addressed potential dissatisfaction sooner so it could be addressed. But overall, your story sounds like an example of communication and teamwork during a difficult period.
Wishing you well
“So here’s my question: does one’s accurate memory of limerence fade as the obsession subsides? And if so, is this fading for the best, or does it indicate a concerning lack of self-awareness that could come back and hurt us?”
Hi Katie!
Dorothy Tennov does mention in her book that when limerence fades, the limerent themselves may not remember the intensity of the experience. Perhaps, for married couples, this fading (forgetting or downplaying the previous importance of LO) is for the best – as long as the limerent episode really is over.
It sounds like you’re a little upset, though, about your husband’s reluctance to own his own feelings in the matter? Perhaps you feel he’s shut you out emotionally? Perhaps, as a wife, you’d like a little more insight into what made this other woman so appealing to your husband, even if her appeal happily proved temporary?
Are you worried he might fall into limerence again with another, different LO? Is that a possibility you’d like to discuss with him?
I’ve never been married. But I imagine the secrecy that accompanies limerence (the feeling your husband is hiding something from you) would take a toll on any relationship. Perhaps your husband isn’t gaslighting you. His feelings for this other lady have indeed vanished, and he now honestly thinks back on that interaction as simple friendship. But, of course, limerence is more than simple friendship, at least while it’s occurring. So I understand your concern.
“And there’s a subtext, which is that if I’d been properly attentive/engaged in our marriage the whole time, none of this would have happened.”
Please don’t blame yourself, sweetheart. Limerence most likely comes about because of many factors, including genetics and childhood attachment issues. Your husband’s limerence was about him, and not about you or the marriage. The responsibility for the obsession ultimately rests with him and his inner workings.
I’m glad to hear things are looking up for you guys, however. It must have been very difficult for you to see your spouse so powerfully drawn to someone else.
I will share a couple of words about my limerent experience, it might be interesting to someone.
The difference between a crush and a LO is very clear in my mind. I did have some crushes back then, during school times and later on, at college, but what I have been experiencing is quite different. Addiction is a very precise word to describe it. I met my LO in an online context, as a friend, and It stays like that. A romantic relationship was never an option since we live miles away and I am married (and I don’t want to divorce). I have my issues from childhood experiences, no-loving parents, bullying and no friends at school, and I am pretty sure that It contributed a lot. I overanalyzed myself the past couple of years. The thing is that I always had a dream, a fantasy about having a very close friend and being able to help people. Hence, I met my LO in this virtual environment and, although there is no physical contact, it allowed our minds to connect. We do have very common interests regarding philosophical topics, culture, music, world view and such. At first, my LO was just like a pen pal to me, someone I used to exchange messages and, at times, chat by texting. It was like two intellectuals sharing their thoughts and minds. But It started to change when my LO started sharing personal matter. A family issue, something ordinary that happened, a piece of advice, a secret, something very private… Something my LO didn’t tell anyone before and such. And then my LO faced a kind of depression (a mild form, so to say) and so, more than being a counsellor, I had the opportunity to help them somehow, to offer support. As we got more closer (always as just friends) I noticed that I was more connected to my LO. I saw myself thinking about them during the day, about what would I say or do to help. Or about something personal I wanted to share. And finally, I started being more demanding, complaining when my LO takes longer to reply to me and so. It started to be too much but I didn’t realize it. I did feel a little bad back then because my LO is the same gender as my SO. And so I managed to bring both together. That time I had no idea that what I was experiencing could be Limerence… I had never heard this word before.
Funny thing… I managed to meet my LO in person about one and a half year ago. I planned a trip to their place, went with my SO. We all had a good time together, I was honestly glad to see my SO and my LO together (and lol… realizing that sounds quite funny!). But I also missed my LO during my trip! My LO just didn’t look like the same person who used to chat with me. We connect mostly by texting each other and that person had a physical body (not attractive at all to me) and a personality not so warm and caring as it used to be during the chat. The virtual environment is quite different from real life, and I wasn’t surprised. But It was interesting… That real person wasn’t my LO. But when we returned from the trip, the texting restarted and pretty fast those feelings of connection and obsession restarted.
And… I don’t have to describe how it is. You all know. It is unbearable. I did many tricks telling myself that it would stop my thoughts, and it didn’t. “Just this message”. “Just checking on it once more”. The endless longings for their message. The guilty because I am married, that “what’s happening” feeling. Whenever I looked for “how to stop thinking about someone”, I found anything romantic related. It confused me. Plus, I wasn’t so close to my SO when I first met my LO in the virtual. We were facing a more difficult phase in the marriage, discussing life plans, babies and so. It’s way better now. Looking back, I feel that It favoured Limerence to take place. This feeling of lacking something in my life, in my partner. Slowly, I started realising that possibly there was something romantic about my addiction to my LO. But It was weird. I didn’t want to have physical contact. I don’t want a romantic relationship. But I wanted closeness, intimacy and constant chatting and contact. I pretty much got addicted to a virtual persona! Something that only exists in this virtual environment! An illusion!
But as soon as I realized it I tried to reconnect to my SO. And I made it. But It’s hard to tell if my addiction to my LO diminished. I guess It did because I am ready to end the friendship. I talked about our friendship a couple of times, about how I was unhappy because of their lack of presence and my LO always validated my feelings. It seems my LO has no idea about what’s going on. I went through NC a couple of times and I noticed that It was what helped me the most. So I am ready to finish our friendship. I feel like to. I am preparing myself. But I don’t want to “break up”. I won’t meet my LO in my real life. And we were just friends. I am working on slowly drifting apart by taking advantage of my LO constant absence from social media. I had already deleted my Facebook because of them (to stop stalking- it is the place my LO uses the most) and now I found an alibi to not chat at all and take longer for replying to their messages. It has been two months. I don’t have any other way of contacting my LO anymore besides this chat program. No Instagram, no Facebook, no Twitter anymore. It has been working. It is not hurting like before. No feeling of despair when my LO is absent, or happiness when they text me.
But my big challenge is to turn off that voice inside of my head and the intrusive thoughts. I don’t know how to stop them. I wonder if this inner voice will stop only when everything is over. I no longer check the chats like I used to do before, to see if my LO is online or not, “oh, online and not talking to me!’, but there’s this countdown between the distant messages.
I could just block them. Or disclose and tell them that the friendship isn’t good anymore or so. But I am too proud to just put a break up like that. And I did manage to help my LO a lot. During the trip, my SO and I helped them in several ways. I listened to their problems, their secrets. I do care a lot about my LO. My LO knows that a friendship doesn’t mean to be forever, so growing apart is a natural way. Acceptable. Like life moving on. My very wish is managing to do that. But if it eventually doesn’t work, then I will have to go NC at all.
My limerence definitely isn’t a crush. It is something entirely new to me. And all-consuming and scary as hell.
I am glad that I found this blog a couple of weeks ago.
I’d rather think about limerence itself than think about my LO, during my sleepless nights.
It feels so weird… Experiencing all this infatuation and feeling like a teenager, after being married for so many years.
I recently lost one of my most cherished family members, and the depression that has been caused by limerence still blows that life event out of the water. It’s great to read about so many people that can relate. I work with my LO, and I’ve had to go to the extent of applying to a new role to even attempt to move on from my obsession. Every time I speak with my LO, I feel a strong sense of calmness and peace. And then just a little time passes and that contentment dissipates as I await another contact with him. I feel wholly and immensely out of control. I’ve never obsessed over something this great. Nothing has ever caused me such distraction. I plan to admit to my LO soon that I have feelings for them, as an attempt to move on and hint at the desire for no further contact, ever again. Has anyone else ever shared, in a much more timid way, with their LO that they’ve developed feelings for them? At this point, the only thing giving me piece of mind is the idea of telling my LO how I feel, of course avoiding going into detail that I’m utterly obsessed. If I ever have to talk to him again, I’ll fall right back into my rut. Wish me luck, as the rejection that follows may completely break me even further. But, I know this will be a worthwhile attempt at closure.
K,
“Has anyone else ever shared, in a much more timid way, with their LO that they’ve developed feelings for them? ”
I have never verbalized that I had feelings per say but I have gotten a phone number and called the guy and arranged a date or verbally made a pass or physically made the first move. This was after I saw some level of reciprocity. I don’t regret any of it. I think with limerence you have two options — you either disclose and/or make your interest very clear or you go NC.
In my case, I shared my feelings in person and then ultimately didn’t want a relationship with them because it was largely based in fantasy, not in loving the actual person. It’s a matter of–be careful what you wish for.
K, my sincere condolences on your loss.
To answer your question, I disclosed. I wrote a letter to LO when I sensed him becoming interested in someone else, as friends encouraged me to hurry and ‘put it out there’. I was very sincere, and transparent and I really did bare my soul (to my horror now, so embarrassing!). He was kind, but said he had to say no because of some non romantic issues he had to care for, while still leaving the door open in a sense. He said he was incredibly flattered, etc. etc.
And from that point on he really stepped it up, calling me several times a day, inviting me to do things with him and even his family! He was always so generous and thoughtful. I just knew deep down he really loved me…
But he didn’t. He just wanted me in his life as an adoring friend. He never got together with the person that spurred me to write the letter, but he is now in a committed relationship and as soon as he was I went NC. That is the only way to heal! He still wants to be friends, but I will not allow it. I can’t run the risk of getting addicted again and even if I didn’t, he doesn’t deserve my friendship after his ambiguous past with me. I feel used. The rejection caused me the greatest grief and it was on the heels of losing two beloved family members and the grief for all of it mixed together was just unbearable. At first he would leave messages on my phone, wanting to now why I went NC. It’s actually none of his business. I owe him nothing and if I explained it would just further my humiliation.l
I actually wish I had handled things differently. I should have lightheartedly let him know I was interested in the very beginning, and if he wasn’t, then I should have moved on. It would have been natural, organic. Instead, I languished in the Friend Zone for waaaaay too long and it was not good for me in the long run, although at the time I was high on the drug of limerence and I just couldn’t kick the habit although I tried and tried. I will never let myself get into this imbalance of power again. I will never let myself experience the soul crushing agony of rejection from someone I actually never was even in a romantic relationship with, although it totally felt like it was the romance of the century. I wish you the best! Be careful with your heart right now!
Thank you for sharing, Jaideux. That sounds like a very painful experience. I’m sorry to hear you went through that especially after opening up, being vulnerable, and writing the letter. That was very brave of you. I think it shows that maybe it’s just not possible to be in any form of a relationship with your LO. Whether they have genuine feelings for you or not, it’s just too close to home. Contact with them poses a level of volatility that is just too great of a risk. If we’re so extraordinarily infatuated/obsessed with someone, is any interaction with them ever really healthy? I have a feeling that my LO would do the same thing – try to stay in touch simply to have an adoring friend. Whether he cares or not, it wouldn’t be possible for him to care nearly as much as I do. So, moving on to a healthier relationship with someone in which we can feel some normality and sense of control is just the only option. NC is something we have to do for ourselves. Again, thank you so much for sharing and responding. You’ve given me extra strength today.
K, you are so welcome and I wish you peace of mind and heart. Please see my response below to Sammy! And do keep us posted.
@Jaideux.
I don’t think you did anything wrong in disclosing to your LO. You shared your feelings with someone who showed strong signs of interest. That’s nothing to be embarrassed about… If anything, it was very brave. 😛
I also don’t think there was anything wrong with your LO’s initial response to you. He said no, and said he was flattered by your interest. So far so good. Both parties have been honest and open and honourable. A heartfelt declaration and a polite rejection.
I do think there’s a problem with how your LO treated you AFTER this exchange, however. If he belatedly decided he was interested, after learning of your interest, he should have started seeing you in a more official capacity. The fact he stepped things up at that point, without any change in how he felt about you romantically, is weird and confusing.
If he wanted you to stick around in his life as a highly valued family friend, for example, maybe he should have said as much? Then it would be your turn to sit down and mull over the “job offer” and say yes or no. 😛
I can understand why you might feel incredibly hurt and used and frustrated by the situation. I feel frustrated just reading about it! Did he not understand the strength of your feelings? Anyway, I can’t see any wrongdoing on your part. You behaved impeccably, my dear. 🙂
Thank you, ever-kind Sammy. I don’t think what I did was ‘wrong’ per se, but it was unwise and unwarranted. I wince to this day and regret my decision. I should have tested the water lightly once again perhaps, for instance when he took me out for a meal I could have asked “is this a date?” with a big smile. And of course, he would have had to reveal it was not, and then I could have backed away gracefully, ultimately going NC, and would have achieved the same results I now have, but would have my dignity intact. Dramatic novelistic disclosures of true love have never, ever worked well for me. I think K has enough response from the ‘commentariat’ to see that disclosure is not the preferred route in most cases. It’s often just a subconscious maneuver of the limerent brain to try to squeeze out reciprocity from the LO. And that works perfectly! (Said no limerent ever). 🙂
Jaideux,
“I should have tested the water lightly once again perhaps, for instance when he took me out for a meal I could have asked “is this a date?” with a big smile. ”
The only problem with doing this is that a flirtatious LO (don’t know what your LO was like) could just twist his answer into some flirtatious flim flam/joke response.
“Dramatic novelistic disclosures of true love have never, ever worked well for me.”
I agree with you. I think big declarations of love are a lot for the other person to process, even if he/she is interested. (I’m talking about a situation where romantic interest hasn’t been officially established and you aren’t dating yet.) I think there can be a middle ground where you can disclose enough to show interest while still giving him space to think about things. It can be tricky, for sure.
I think disclosure is a good idea if you are single. It may not always resolve the uncertainty but often it does. I have disclosed directly or indirectly (via gossip) to all my past LOs (when I was single). “I have feelings for you” does the job. The nice ones give you a clean rejection which hurts but lifts you out of the fog. My worst bedded me and asked “does that feel better now” after! Ended my limerence rapidly. My now SO responded to my declaration with “there is no spark but that doesn’t mean it cannot be lit”. Limerence fuel but at least told me what I needed to do!
Saying that, you cant beat a slightly alcohol fuelled sensual snog for communicating your interest in someone 😉
“I think with limerence you have two options — you either disclose and/or make your interest very clear or you go NC.” I totally agree! I’m hoping to disclose this week (yikes) and then go NC. I’m glad to learn you have no regrets.
You don’t know. You may disclose and not have to go NC. I would just pay 10% attention to what the guy says and 90% attention to what he does after you disclose. And if he doesn’t step up, then I agree with Jaideux. Go NC and don’t feel you have to explain it. He knows why. You’ve told him your feelings and he’s just trying to get what he wants without respecting that you have deeper feelings.
Since you work with your LO, have you read:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-to-disclose/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
The conventional wisdom is disclosure to a coworker isn’t a good idea. Poke around the older posts. One poster said he was fired after disclosure, Fred had his MPDG, another gave his LO an equity stake in his company, and another poster said he became limerent for a client and got disbarred.
Assuming that nobody is playing us, there are tangible consequences to acting on your limerence. I disclosed to my LO but we had no professional or social nexus so she posed no risk in those contexts.
Your LO does. Tread carefully.
There’s nothing about limerence that says tread lightly. Provided it’s not her boss or someone she manages or, for example, she’s a lawyer and he’s her client … If it’s someone she can disclose to and then not have much interaction with after that if need be, I say disclosure is the first avenue to freeing oneself, no matter what the response.
Marcia,
I totally agree with you about the potentially liberating benefits of disclosure. But, I tend to operate with a cost-benefit mindset. Some LEs carry more risk than others. Some things just come at too great a cost to pursue, like trashing my marriage and family for LO #4. Disclosure can set a lot of things in motion, many of them are not good.
I’m a firm believer that people are responsible for their actions. If somebody wants to do something marginal, as long as it doesn’t affect me, more power to them. Sacrifice for a purpose is noble. Sacrifice for no purpose is suicide.
I’m also wired to warn someone if I think they’re going to step in front of a bus. That trait was what started me down the path of my LE with LO #4. I saw some things that she was doing that she didn’t appear to have considered the potential consequences. So, as narcissistic as it was to butt in, I said something.
I expected her to tell me to shut up and butt out. But, she didn’t. She said she hadn’t considered what I’d said, said she understood my point, and appreciated letting her know. She said it felt good to know someone had her back. It got worse from there. One of the reasons I eventually disclosed to LO #4 was that we were already deep in the weeds.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/overconfidencedemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276078
Scharnhorst,
“But, I tend to operate with a cost-benefit mindset.”
Are you in one of the STEM fields? 🙂
“Some LEs carry more risk than others. Some things just come at too great a cost to pursue, like trashing my marriage and family for LO #4. Disclosure can set a lot of things in motion, many of them are not good.”
I agree that it depends on her personal and professional situation. But one of the things that disclosure does is help a person move on, whether with the LO or not.
“One of the reasons I eventually disclosed to LO #4 was that we were already deep in the weeds.”
I personally don’t think you have to be deep in the weeds to disclose. The LO should show some level of reciprocity. There should be some level of rapport established. Friendship or obvious flirtation/interest.
I’m an engineer by degree and spent my entire career in different aspects of nuclear power. Oddly, I won the Social Studies award in HS.
I had no business going into electrical engineering but I wanted to play on submarines and the Navy liked engineers. They don’t have much use for Psych majors on subs. Toss in that my father told me that you can teach an engineer to do anything and it was a no brainer.
I knew it! I can spot an engineer a mile away! Engineer types infiltrate both sides of my family. 🙂
Oh, I am bold and gallant
And quickly quaff my beer
Women tremble at my glance
For I’m an Engineer!
Scharnhorst,
And, to me, at least, disclosure doesn’t have to be a big, heavy discussion. Maybe she should just ask the guy on a date. And use the word “date” so it’s clear.
But, that’s not what K said she was thinking of doing.
She said, “I’m hoping to disclose this week (yikes) and then go NC. I’m glad to learn you have no regrets.”
I went that route. I couldn’t make it work and I was 2500 miles away from LO #4. Things got a whole lot messier before they got better.
If K can get away from him and stay from him, and vice versa, it’s not an unreasonable way to go. Again, one of the reasons I could get away with it was there was no professional risk.
I told the EAP counselor my reasons for disclosure. She said for a smart guy, I made some really bad assumptions. I think she took a positive delight in letting me know how self-serving it was.
I’ve said it before, just because I couldn’t do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done. But, I don’t think my inability to pull it off was a fluke, either.
I guess I was misunderstanding her. I thought the point of disclosure was to see if the LO had feelings for her. Why disclose just to go NC? If she needs to go NC to get away from a toxic LO, just go NC. No need to put oneself through disclosure otherwise.
Thank you very much for the insight everyone. I feel very supported and much less alone. I’m moving to a new department in the near future, so I’ll no longer be working with my LO. This is why I feel comfortable disclosing. I think my goal of disclosing is closure, and of course deep down to see if my LO admits to any feelings. It’s unlikely, as he has done a great job being extra careful not to be unprofessional up to this point during our many conversations, which I will miss. I anticipate that he’ll be his usual kind and respectful self. My does that make it even harder. He’ll say something like, “I think you’re great too, and I wish you nothing but the best.” Talk about a dagger to the heart. Might as well say “I only viewed you as a friend, but sorry if you didn’t realize that before you fell madly into limerence with me.” But, even him communicating something like that will make me feel like I’ve ultimately been rejected and there’s no reason to continue contact. I can’t afford further contact. Oh, and did I mention I’m married and my husband and I are in discussion about divorce? It’s been a long time coming, but furthermore a reason that I have to go NC. This emotional affair cannot continue. I can’t fix a problem with another problem. What a mess I’m in. I’m sure many of you can relate, which is such a relief. This week will be an interesting one for me. I can only hope I’ll get the closure I’m looking for so I can move the heck on without feeling guilty about not putting myself out there and being vulnerable.
Also, I’m confident that if I do not disclose, my LO will continue to stay in touch with me even after I move to a new department. I need him to understand that we can no further communicate and why.
Any candid feedback regarding if this is a selfish move on my part? My LO is single and I don’t want him to be offended when I no longer communicate with him, on purpose. But I do want to make sure I’m considering all sides before disclosing and of course wishing him the best.
This article might be worth a read, K:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
The key question to ask yourself is what to you want to achieve with disclosure? As a general strategy, trying to mould LO’s behaviour by disclosing to explain why you are going quiet in the hope that they will leave you alone too, usually backfires. Often, this is a way to rationalise your real desire, which is to try and get disclosure from them, in the belief that it will mean closure for you. That also rarely works.
Basically, unless you are free to start a relationship with LO, I am sceptical about the benefits of disclosure.
I would just add that if you do go NC, you are probably going to have be rigid with your boundaries. He may give you some space and then reappear and try to rekindle the friendship. People have a tendency to ignore boundaries if they are getting something out of a situation, and he probably genuinely enjoy your friendship.
Great feedback all around, Marcia. Thank you.
“As a general strategy, trying to mould LO’s behaviour by disclosing to explain why you are going quiet in the hope that they will leave you alone too, usually backfires.” = DrL
Where could you possibly have gotten that idea from? Oh, yeah, https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-to-disclose/#comment-1852
DrL expands on that in https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
It’s really not fair to bring someone into something they may not want to be part of. It’s worse when you dump it on them, they respond to you, and you run. Oops, my bad. I knew there was no “fairy-tale-ending” with LO #4. Our acquaintance was going to end. It was a matter of when and how. If it blew up, LO #4 was going under the bus. At that point what little integrity I might have had was gone, so, why not? I knew the right answer, was working with a professional, didn’t want to trash my marriage, and it was still really hard to walk away from her. That wasn’t her, that was me.
I didn’t have to disclose. Yeah, disclosure got rid of my sense of unfinished business. The last things I ever wanted to do to LO #4 was hurt her feelings, make her angry, or make things harder for her. If I did any of those, she never came out and told me.
Does it matter? Not really. But, I don’t like being a schmuck.
Scharhnorst, I think you’ve convinced me with these resources to not disclose. That and what Marcia said – pay attention 90% to actions and 10% to words. I asked my LO for help recently and it was clear I was really struggling, and yet he showed no genuine care. There’s my answer. And why would I want to give a piece of my heart away to someone like that? He’s already destroyed my marriage. How pathetic for me to think something this close to home could ever work. Now I want nothing more to move on and throw a big “f u” in the air right in his face. It’s time to move on. I don’t hate anyone, but some people are just better out of our lives. Lesson learned. I sure hope this feeling of empowerment lasts. And why can’t it? It’s all in our heads. We’re all stronger than this.
And thank you for sharing that article DrLimerence. A really good one and helpful!
Hi, guys.
Yesterday I celebrated six months since I asked for NC (successful this time, 4th attempt). I have to tell the truth, I’m not healed yet, I still have waves of sadness but in general I feel so much better than six months ago and limerence depths look shallower now. This limerent episode was a huge wake up call (I’m happily married and before my marriage I was serial limerent), I have done some very serious inside work (codependency issues, trauma, person addiction, good old stuff :)).
I have a question for you guys who are married, were you successful, after limerent episode, to (I don’t know right word, I’m not a native speaker) fall in love again with your partner? I’m trying to revive a sparkle, because I love my husband so much…
I need to read a lot more on this page before commenting, but how does one explain a 25 year limerant experience if it is supposed to be somewhat limited in nature and length? Perhaps I misread that, or like so many caught in limerance, I think we’re the exception to the rule. Excruciating story short, he’s never had a thought of cheating with anyone else but can’t seem to stay away from me. His memory ruined multiple relationships and three marriages by my mind always returning to comparisons. I moved out of state several times to heal and make it stop. We went years without talking but every single time ended back here, in it’s throes. I am a rational and strong person but every rule, including my Christian beliefs, go out the window with him. Did I mention 25 years of this? As I know you all understand, it’s unending misery being so vulnerable when you’re a Type A personality but I’m helpless.
I’ve read limerence can last decades. Is this an affair?
Yes, on his part. Mine, I tried to stay monogamous but failed each time my marriage went past repairable so I gave in again for the past three years.
By “I tried but each time my marriage went beyond repair,” I mean that each failed marriage would go askew on it’s own and then once I realized it was in dire danger the comparisons to him would start and I’d end up back with him eventually.
“Mine, I tried to stay monogamous but failed each time my marriage went past repairable so I gave in again for the past three years.”
That’s not an answer. Were you single, divorced or legally separated when you had sex with him?
Ralph,
I wasn’t looking to judge. From what has been presented in the literature, limerence is rare and mostly one-sided. A decades-long affair seems to be something different. There is reciprocation by both parties, for one thing.
However, one could be limerent and LO be a user.
Third likelihood – they are both users.
There are lots of possibilities, Ralph, but a decades-long connection that outlasts (several?) marriages suggests something different from casually using others, especially if Tammy remained monogamous while married but circled back to LO when they ended.
Clearly, though, there was a ghost haunting those marriages…
Sure – it suggests that neither one of them have a thimbleful of honor or integrity between them. After all, he is cheating on his wife repeatedly through the years and Tammy is an active partner.
“…he’s never had a thought of cheating with anyone else but can’t seem to stay away from me”
That’s what he says to Tammy. What does he say to his wife?
I hope he divorces his wife and marries Tammy.
@Tammy.
Thank you for sharing. However, I’m not sure if I understand your post. Are you saying your LO stayed on your mind for 25 years? I.e. for 25 years, whatever your respective circumstances, you haven’t been able to get this particular man out of your head?
That definitely sounds like limerence to me – the inability to stop thinking about someone. And a pretty strong case of it, too. Being cognitively fixated on someone for decades is different from the 2-3 year figure people usually report.
I guess, for things to stretch out this long, some major uncertainty must be involved? Without uncertainly, apparently limerence comes to a natural end… If there’s nothing feeding the hope, then there’s nothing to ruminate about. 🙂
It sounds like this LO has such a hold over your imagination that you can’t enjoy relationships with other potential partners? Partners who are available? Your LO might be an archetype to you. E.g. what he represents emotionally to you is very powerful. Maybe, in your dreams and fantasies, he embodies a certain vision of masculinity? Maybe he has similar traits to you? (A twin? A mirror?) Maybe he has opposite traits to you? (He possesses something you feel you lack).
If I were in your shoes, I’d definitely be interested in asking the question: “Why on earth is this person so attractive to me? What is the basis of said attractiveness?”
Don’t be too hard on yourself. I don’t think anyone – not even a person with Type A personality – has ever successfully “shamed themselves” out of unwanted limerence. Shame only reinforces addiction. I think the route to recovery involves being very honest (with yourself) about your feelings and desires, and understanding your emotional triggers. You have to be gentle with yourself and make friends with your own emotions. That’s what I’ve learnt anyway… 😛
Hope you don’t mind my input. Feel free to disregard it, if you don’t feel it’s relevant to your particular circumstances. Wishing you well.
I definitely value all input, especially unvarnished, non-sugarcoated input! I have no problem with people being overtly honest so with that in mind I am pretty hard on myself. The being gentle with myself only makes me complacent and forgiving for something that is so anti-thetical to my stringent belief system. There has always been uncertainty around us because there’s always the hope of being together. Only the first time around and now has he ever said he considered leaving his wife. He doesn’t talk to me about her because he doesn’t want to cause me any more pain than the situation itself does. Plus, he’s admitted talking about her makes him feel more disloyal. These are qualities I hold in high regard so in a really bizarre way it makes him more attractive.
When we met I was married but unhappy so I divorced and we kept our affair for five years. Kids were his excuse for staying. Then 9-11 happened and he rejoined the military moving himself and his family away from our home area. Seemed the perfect antidote because cell phones weren’t even a real thing then. We worked in the same field so had a lot of mutual friends. I suffered through two years and decided that every single street corner memory was too much and I’d always dreamed of moving so I moved away myself. I stayed gone for a few years and married again during that time. My husband turned out to be gay so I came home for a visit in the midst of our divorce. By this time, he had left the military and was back in our chosen field in the home area. We met a few times in this period. I decided to move closer to home once I lost both my parents so I was a couple of hours away. I met another man whom I thought I could spend my life with. I cut off communication with him again and remarried. This man and I once again moved farther away but by this time cell phones were common place so we stayed in touch more regularly, a few times a year. In fact, we DID meet when I came home to see my siblings but we agreed to meet in public and in a way that there was no chance of us being able to touch. We agreed it was the only way it would be acceptable, to not let temptation be a part of our future because we just cared for each other too much to let completely go. He asked a few times to meet me privately and I refused. He didn’t push. Then my third husband became complacent and didn’t even offer to satisfy me for about three years. During this time, my LO got more insistent and once I knew that this marriage was doomed also I agreed. We’ve been together three years this time. I’ve told him I will not find another because as things head south he always re-enters the picture. It’s not always at either of our behest. Circumstances at perfect moments have had us unexpectedly thrown together. So while I’ve tried and had other relationships when they’ve disappointed me and began to exhibit habits and values that weren’t cohesive with mine, I’d start to lose interest and invariably start thinking about him again and comparing his wholly compatible moral code with theirs. I always put him on a pedestal although I do see quite a bit of fault in him too.
@Tammy
You are very articulate. I can totally *feel* the situation that you are in.
“comparing his wholly compatible moral code with theirs”
It is ironic but all of us can see each others’ LOs for what they really are, but idealize our own.
Does he really have a high moral code? He avoids talking to you about his wife because he’ll give you pain (but keeps giving you immense pain by refusing to leave her). Also because he feels disloyal to her (and yet indulges in real disloyalty by continuing to have an affair with you… for years).
Does he really have the integrity of character that you see in him?
At least 8 years having sex with a married man. Think of his wife, trusting him for decades.
“my stringent belief system.”
“He doesn’t talk to me about her because he doesn’t want to cause me any more pain than the situation itself does. Plus, he’s admitted talking about her makes him feel more disloyal”
“comparing his wholly compatible moral code with theirs.”
You are perfect for one another.
Tammy,
You’re each a back-up when life gets boring.
Beliefs aren’t what you think. It’s a set of rules for how you live and treat others.
If it’s limerence, the solution is no contact. Definitely difficult but it’s supposed to work.
@Ralph
That’s a bit hard on her! None of us here are perfect (hence we’re here on this site). I know I’m not for sure… my brain acting in LEs the way I know is wrong and *don’t* want it to.
An opportunity for some compassion perhaps?
Ralph,
I was married each time but at the end of the relationship. In other words, he did not create problems, but was definately an anesthetic to ease the pain of the loss of relationships I took very seriously. When I was still committed in my heart I avoided him because I wanted so badly to find the kind of feelings I had for him in someone that was available. Each time I failed and I knew it wasn’t the same but I tried to make honest efforts.
Beth,
I think there is some validity to what you’re saying and I think there have been moments early on when we first met that he may have used me but when he’d lose me it was only briefly before one of us would reach out to the other. On my end, I DID actually go years without falling back on him but if I reached out he was immediately reciprocating. We’re in our 50’s now and it’s worse than it’s ever been. These feelings should fade into a comfortable rhythm, especially as age sets in, but they never have. Is it possible we’re just addicted, twin flames or something else? Because it’s starkly acute and even my best friend, who is a social worker and has a pretty strong psychiatric education, says she thinks we’re both honestly interacting but that he just lacks the fortitude to leave even though he wants it so badly. I mean he jeopardizes his marriage, his (adult now) kids admiration and his entire lifelong career by taking this insane chance for just some stolen moments.
Tammy,
“We’re in our 50’s now and it’s worse than it’s ever been. These feelings should fade into a comfortable rhythm”
How much time have you spent together? I don’t mean cumulative time. If you only have stolen moments, the excitement takes much longer to fade.
Tammy,
Underneath, you knew he was there. Through all of your marriages. It sounds as if he’s always been present in your life, as in same city.
You’re accepting what he’s willing to give and that’s not much. You’re available for “stolen moments” while he continues with his nice life.
I’m sorry you fell into this. I don’t know you but you surely deserve better.
I appreciate the honesty. And I wish it were as simple as all that. But every time he sees me there is a chance he could lose it all….a very real chance, not just the normal chances of the wife finding out and a divorce…I mean his entire inheritance, home and half his retirement, his children may never speak to him again and his career will be over. I wish I could convey all of it but even my social worker friend can’t wrap her head around it and she’s been here through every single minute…she’s ALWAYS blunt and brutally honest but she’s stumped herself.
Tammy,
From my perspective, it’s an affair, not limerence.
There’s reciprocation and certainty.
You call or he does and you get together.
Danger to his status and wealth is not uncertainty.
Uncertainty is LO being on the fence about feelings.
My LO reciprocated and then backed away. That made me anxious and limerence took hold
I don’t totally agree. I became limerent for my LO ( or intensely infatuated) the minute I saw him. Now, him showing interest and then pulling back increased the limerence and caused it last longer, that’s for sure, but I think you can be intensely infatuated with someone even if you are with them. You don’t have to have uncertainty. If you are with them, the limerence dies more quickly, but there can still be limerence. And the fact that she can’t have him completely and he leaves her life and then reappears causes uncertainty.
Marcia,
I guess that would cause uncertainty but after all this time, it’s still going on. I view it as a sure thing for both. He’s not going to leave his wife. That’s a certainty.
Might be love. It’s not in her head
Beth,
I’m just saying you can have limerence without uncertainty. It can be the early phase of a relationship. And I think most limerence isn’t just in someone ‘s head. There is some level of reciprocity. That’s what fuels it. It just isn’t the level of reciprocity the limerent wants. It’s a friendship or a flirtation or maybe an FWB when the limerent wants a relationship. For Tammy, the best thing that could happen is that they get to spend to some real time together. Not sure that’s possible.
Tammy,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/on-not-knowing-what-you-want/ ?
Marcia,
The conventional wisdom on LwL is uncertainty is a key component of limerence, although not explicitly called out in Tenov’s list.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/uncertainty/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
If reciprocation is the fuel, uncertainty is the oxygen. I think that DrL actually said that in one of the blogs.
LE ,
The early in love phase of many relationships is limerence. The early part of all relationships has some level of uncertainty. And I am not required to subscribe to conventional wisdom.
I think barriers to getting together act in the same way as uncertainty in fuelling limerence.
Tammy – it sounds to me like you love each other, but in a limerent obsessive addicted way. I would ignore the unhelpful moral judgements if I were you – you do not need to justify your or his actions to anyone other than yourselves. Infidelity is not the best way to behave but can be hard to resist when you feel that strongly.
Is this something you can live with or is it making you very unhappy? I guess one key issue for you is that it gets in the way of you loving someone that IS available and making a life with them.
Wishing you well.
“I mean his entire inheritance, home and half his retirement, his children may never speak to him again and his career will be over.”
Why do you think his wife isn’t entitled to half the inheritance (if he commingled the money – otherwise it is entirely his. Or are you talking about him getting half of HER future inheritance?) or the home and half his retirement.
You’re either worth the risks or you’re not. You either want to be with him regardless of his personal and financial situation or you don’t. And vice versa.
Sounds as though you want what is hers as part of the bargain of being married to him for decades, but without the effort and sacrifices she made to be with him and raising their family, etc. You also want his children to prefer you and your actions through the years to their mother’s behavior.
But if you are set on him getting everything and leaving her as close to penniless at the curbside, tell him to move to Texas or move the family to Texas. It’s the best state for punishing military spouses for their misplaced trust. At least in the past. That may have changed.
Ralph,
Some of it depends on jurisdiction, some of it doesn’t
I think Georgia has some pretty hefty laws on the books that say adultery is a forfeiture of spousal support and community property. But, I don’t live in Georgia, committed adultery nor expecting to divorce. I think Tammy can also be named as a party and his wife can go after her. With the right judge in the right state, they can furnish their new apartment from the Free section of Craigslist. Search the net and there’s no shortage of material on vindictive exes hell bent on making his next marriage miserable.
In some cases, the ex wife was the cause of the problem and the man and his new SO is an innocent bystander and suffers for it. It some cases, the guy and his new SO are the perps. It seems Tammy and her LO are in the latter category and the laws work as intended.
Also, as I understand it, the military requires that an ex-spouse is entitled to up to half his military retirement. My ex-Navy buddy recently retired. He said it cost him $400K and his ex gets half his reserve retirement for the rest of his or her life.
Marcia,
You make excellent points.
I wanted LO to care about me as much as I cared for him. Not sure what I truly wanted beyond that.
Does Tammy really want him to leave his wife? That comes with a lot of fallout.
Yes, you can be limerent while you’re with someone but in my case, the uncertainty led to limerence. I didn’t realize something was wrong until I tried to break things off. The internal struggle and rumination began.
The relentless nature of rumination seems to be the defining factor of L.
Beth,
“Does Tammy really want him to leave his wife? That comes with a lot of fallout.”
Yeah, I agree. There’s a man online who does videos about limerence, whose name I will not mention because we aren’t supposed to be looking at other gurus 🙂 … but he divorced his wife for his LO. It didn’t work out with the LO and he went back to the wife. The problem with an affair is that you don’t really get to see the whole person. And in the cold light of day, after the limerence wears off, the spouse may end up being the better match. I’m not saying this is the issue here. I don’t know.
Generally 8-10 hours a week when we were together. The first three years it was around 4 hours a day just being near and talking. In fact, there was no actual sexual relationship for 8 months until we couldn’t take resisting it any longer. I also know for a fact, because over the years if they weren’t privy to the nature of our relationship I would find ways to question his dedication to his marriage, that he’s never cheated before or since. He still tells me to this day he’s never been tempted to look outside his marriage other than me and believe me I have checked and double-checked.
But if you know you only have so much time with someone, there is a heightened sense of intensity, urgency. It makes everything feel … more. You have to get it in … NOW!
I agree. There is an urgency…and the uncertainty.
Sorry, I have Lyme disease and my brain doesn’t function well. That should’ve said over the years because of our community involvement and mutual friends, several of whom knew the nature of our relationship, I have not found any other infidelity.
I’m a bit offput by Ralph’s dismissal of me as being a user when I do actually feel a debt of remorse on my part for doing this to his wife. I try to tell myself I’m not married to him so I don’t owe her any loyalty but at the same time know that as a person with a high moral standard I do. And yes, I do have a high standard…except with our relationship which is the crux of my debacle. I didn’t come here to be dismissed as an asshole. I came here in honesty and looking for an explanation for what to me seems inexplicable. I am at my wit’s end because I’ve never been okay with the emotional anguish it causes us and would cause for those around us. I have never had a problem admitting something or someone caused me more pain than it was worth and standing alone to do the right thing. He is the exception to my every rule.
Blue Ivy, Beth and Marcia,
I appreciate your input. You’ve given me much to consider. BI, I think he truly does have the moral integrity. Our friends and co-workers hold him in high regard for his honesty and reliability. Now he is indecisive, irritable and sarcastic much of the time so it’s not that I don’t see faults.
Limerant Emeritus,
I will read the link you provided and keep seeking answers.
Tammy,
The mid-life desire for something you want and feel you may never find again is very real. It’s overwhelming.
I hope you find your way through to happiness and peace.
Best of luck.
Thanks Beth! I wish it were limited to mid-life. It would be far in the past!!!!
Tammy,
Looking back at some of my responses, I didn’t come across as supportive and I apologize.
Whatever LOs are, they are, as LE stated, our kryptonite. I told LO once that he was my weakness. I lost respect for myself somewhere along the way with him.
We’ve ALL been there.
My best to you.
Tammy,
“I didn’t come here to be dismissed as an asshole. I came here in honesty and looking for an explanation for what to me seems inexplicable. I am at my wit’s end because I’ve never been okay with the emotional anguish it causes us and would cause for those around us. I have never had a problem admitting something or someone caused me more pain than it was worth and standing alone to do the right thing. He is the exception to my every rule.”
What you describe is typical for a lot of limerents. It’s hard to describe and DrL does a great job of trying to explain it. One thing I learned about myself and I think it’s more or less universal is that a lot of us have what I call cognitive blind spots.
There are just some things we seem incapable of seeing. LO #1 had an affinity for cheaters. It informed her world view. LO #4 had an affinity for Narcs. Until the last one, which she said I opened her eyes to what was going on, never met a Narc she didn’t try to rehabilitate. That included her now exbf she spent 7 years. I had an affinity for unhappy women who are victims of bad luck vice bad judgment and think I’m part of the solution. It took a lot of therapy to identify and correct that.
LO’s are like kryptonite and the glimmer is what draws us to it. In the real world, you can’t see ionizing radiation and you don’t know it’s killing you until it you start to feel it’s effect. Actually, if the dose is strong enough, it will ionize your saliva immediately and you can taste it. If that happens, you die, relatively soon.
The solution is straightforward. Get away from him and stay away from him. But, it’s not easy to pull off. You think it would be but it’s not. A whole lot of emotions and things come into play. Also, keep in mind, you’re not the only one in the game. A well-intentioned but complicit LO is real pain to deal with.
Cut yourself some slack and keep plugging away.
I am thankful for your thoughts. I don’t mind being critically criticized and I can see all his faults but I have a blind spot as to my own ability to actually see it through to it’s conclusion. I know it’s coming to a head in a way it never has in the past. Honestly, I’m terrified and that’s one reason I stopped at this site…because no one understands it and I have no defense to know how to deal with the loss.
Tammy,
That terror, feeling of dread, impending doom, or however you describe it, is real and it’s a bitch.
When LO #4 told me her BF had (allegedly) assaulted her and she was leaving him, my first thought was, “F–k, I don’t need this.” I knew the game had changed. I had this vision of a giant snowball coming down the hill toward me and I needed to get out of the way.
And, then it was like my 5yr old self was there instead saying, “Oh, hell no. We got this.” and I didn’t get out of the way.
It took a year and 3 months with my EAP counselor keeping me straight to get clear. I saw an EAP counselor because I was well aware of the cost of getting It wrong and I didn’t trust myself to make the right decisions. It took longer to work through it but I eventually did.
Limerence can compell you to do things you know are against your own best interest. That’s why your integrity works everywhere but here. You wouldn’t think it’s possible but it is.
So, I totally relate to what you’re experiencing. It seems like it should be clear cut but it’s not. Sometimes, the best you can do is hope whatever happens leads to everyone’s eventual happiness and act with that intent.
Did that make any sense?
Tammy,
Ignore the negativity. Most posters here are very supportive.
Agreed. We all come with our own baggage, Ralph included.
It all helps build resilience, though, and helps understand how our lives affect others. Kind of like this post covers.
I’ll check that out now Dr. L. Thanks for providing this platform and help!
I’m sure Ralph, like anyone else, has triggers and baggage himself. I don’t mind taking a stark look at my failures but I do mind being told, in essence, I’m an asshole when I already feel like one despite my efforts to be as honest as I can be with myself and others. This has definitely affected my self-worth and self-appreciation.
I’m going to blog about this topic on Saturday, but one of the reasons I am generally permissive about comments is that it helps everyone calibrate their own views by seeing the full range of opinions. Obviously trolls can deliberately mess with this for their own amusement, but in this case I’d say Ralph genuinely has a zero tolerance attitude to infidelity in any form. People like that are out there, and it’s useful to get that feedback.
The critical thing, though, is to use that information to develop and refine your own moral framework as an independent thinker, not to upend all your old beliefs and beat yourself up.
I am aware that this is a dispassionate, intellectual argument, which does little to salve the pain of being socially attacked. Very few people can take that without a blow to self-worth and self-appreciation – but the hope is that once the pain passes, you emerge a little more resilient, rather than a little more sensitive.
Kind of a Nietzschean argument, I guess.
I don’t begrudge Ralph his opinion and I actually DO concur with him regarding infidelity which is a large part of why this is so much harder for me. I just was taken aback by the response…my opinion of myself isn’t measured by the responses of strangers on the internet, I’m simply stating that his judgment cannot possibly make me feel any worse about myself than I already do. Perhaps God called him to answer that in that way because there’s a lesson for him to learn or for someone uninvolved to read and learn. I really look forward to your blog and if I can offer any input or assistance please let me know.
Allie,
Somehow I passed over your answer. I feel that you’ve come closest to describing what this could be. Neither of us has addictive personalities but while I know we truly love each other there is some aspect of unhealthiness to it that very well may be addiction. As far as if it’s worth it, there’s so much pain that it has to stop but he has to do that because I’m here and am 100 percent ready for a full relationship. But I won’t force him, I’m making him make a choice.
Limerant Emeritus,
Every word makes sense. I can feel the conclusion in the near future and we have set a time limit on it. Not that we haven’t unsuccessfully done that in the past but I just moved to an area that is a full 40 miles from both his work and his house so making time is nearly impossible. He cannot keep the pace indefinitely and this may be the one thing that will make it or break it. He has said he will make a decision shortly after Father’s Day but won’t before then because his kids have made some type of special plans he wasn’t supposed to know about and he will not let them down (his son has been in the military the last four years and not home is part of it). If he chooses me then it’ll go forward and I’ll catch him because the fall out will be significant. If he chooses to stay it’s likely an effort in vain because he’s never been able to carry it off before. That snowball is on a collision course with me. He’ll either kill himself physically trying to keep the status quo, he’ll stay NC for the first time ever, one or the other will make contact again at some future point, he’ll leave and we will try to forge a future, or he’ll return soon unable to resist and will drive me to complete insanity where I disclose it to her with absolute proof to force absolvement one way or another.
Tammy,
It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the directions this could go. The questions then become are you ready to deal with them, whichever way they go.
It only takes one party to go NC and stick to it. Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-loneliness-of-no-contact/? You may not be ready for it yet. IMO, it’s one of the best blogs DrL has written but it’s depressing. Going NC for you will be a real loss and will cause you real pain. All the 5 Stages of Grief will come into play. No way around it.
Right now it seems like you’re in what I call the “Mirror Ball Phase” of ending an LE. In case you haven’t figured it out, I like trite analogies. They help me frame complex issues in terms I can deal with. From my experience and unscientific observation limerents beginning to come out of an LE are flooded with a lot of different emotions. There’s shame, guilt, anxiety, uncertainty, need, want, etc. There are more. There all facets on a mirror ball. You start thinking about one, the ball turns a little and you’re off on a different subject. It takes some time and effort to get the ball to stop spinning and focus on one issue at a time.
And, you’re doing all this while trying to make your everyday life work and keep yourself from unraveling in front of everybody. You may be calm and collected on the outside but your a 4-alarm basket case on the inside. Trust me on this one. You may not be fragile but you could be brittle. Take a hit in the wrong spot and your life can shatter like a frozen windshield. Talk about dread.
The best graphical description of limerence for me is the cover of the Moody Blues “Every Good Boy Deserves Favor” album. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41NrDnBsskL.jpg I don’t know who the old guy is but I know that kid is me and that glimmering crystal is an LO.
You’re in a tough spot and you don’t know how it’s going to drop until it does. You can certainly force the issue. But, going that route involves people you probably don’t have the morally or ethically defensible position to involve. Do that and it becomes all about your happiness and everybody else be damned. Or, your LO can try to leverage your LO into forcing the issue which reduces you from perpetrator to accomplice. You’re not actually robbing the bank, you’re only driving the get away car.
You’ve been playing this game for a long time and you don’t want to give it. Give your LO the ultimatum to “Play me or trade me.” But, unless you’re willing to carry, it’s not a real threat, it’s a bluff and he might call you on it. Then, what? Back to the dance? Hey, what’s another decade or two?
You have choices but not many very pleasant ones.
Some of that was poorly written. I have to stop posting that late at night.
“He’ll either kill himself physically trying to keep the status quo, he’ll stay NC for the first time ever, one or the other will make contact again at some future point, he’ll leave and we will try to forge a future, or he’ll return soon unable to resist and will drive me to complete insanity where I disclose it to her with absolute proof to force absolvement one way or another.”
Let’s play with this one. You’re correct, disclosure would be complete insanity but for fun, let’s run through a disclosure scenario.
Outcome #1: His SO says, “Wow! I never knew. But, I won’t stand in the way of his happiness. I’ll let him go.” Likelihood: Hell will freeze over first.
Outcome #2: She decides to fight, calls you a blanking bitch and tells you if you come near her husband again, you’ll regret it. Likelihood: Possible.
As for you regretting it, your hope requires her to be clueless or merciful. She may decide to take heads. She might spare his, she has no reason to spare yours. You disclose to her, you better hope to God she’s not vindictive, intelligent, and doesn’t live in a one-party recording state. She may not be clueless. She may be well aware of what he’s been doing and is willing to overlook it because she loves him. You start the disclosure and if she’s smart enough to record you, you’re a dead woman. If you thought your life is hell now, she’ll have the power to make it even worse and there won’t be a damn thing you can do about it because, (ta da!) you started it. With today’s social media environment, she can track you down. She can send that recording to your boss. Go to church, she can send it to your pastor. Belong to any clubs on Facebook, they’ll know. She has an ax to grind and nothing to lose. Those kind of people are dangerous, very dangerous.
What ever dignity you thought you had will be gone. Once she’s done with you, she can deal with him. She likely won’t respect him anymore, she certainly won’t respect you and will work to see no one else does either. Piss her off badly enough and she’ll hound you the rest of her life whomever he ends up with. You said it and she can prove it. Think she’s forgotten about you? Just when you think you’re safe, she tosses out the bomb again. If she’s really vindictive and really good at it, she can keep you on edge forever. And, some people are that good at it.
He is kind of a wimp in letting you and his wife do his dirty work for him. He doesn’t seem worthy of a lot of respect, either.
But, it’s only hypothetical. Other outcomes are certainly possible. This is one of the worst ones.
Ralph and Limerant Emeritus,
Ralph, regarding your latest response to my conclusion of what my options are and the reality of the outcomes…
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about him losing everything. That’s not what I wish, it’s just reality and actually a defense of him and why he has yet to take action one way or another. On the one hand he’ll lose me which he cannot fathom he says; on the other HE stands to lose the things listed. I actually have told him he owes her financial support and half his retirement. I’ve actually told him that if we move forward he will not try to screw her over but at the same time I don’t want him to get overly punished financially…what’s fair is fair. I’m solidly on her side on that. She didn’t build a life with the expectation he would participate in destroying it and thus deserves to have that life preserved as close to the manner in which she is accustomed as possible.
Limerant Emeritus,
You said, “The questions then become are you ready to deal with them, whichever way they go.” I’m not ready to lose him, no I’m not. But I am ready for resolution and I’ve told him if he chooses that life that it will be up to him to maintain NC because I’m not making the choice…i.e., live with the consequences of your actions. You don’t choose us? Then YOU bear the burden of making our relationship a thing of the past.
You said, “You can certainly force the issue. But, going that route involves people you probably don’t have the morally or ethically defensible position to involve. Do that and it becomes all about your happiness and everybody else be damned.” I can see why you think this but it comes down more to my helplessness to this wave. I don’t have the strength to end it but I am willing to suffer the fallout in whatever form it may come for change to happen. I don’t think there’s a happily ever after unless HE makes the choice. That’s the one thing I do think lowly of him and me on, we are both weak, weak, weak when it comes to this. After a quarter of a century, even though our relationship is more honest and better than it’s ever been, I’ve learned to expect the worst. He gets upset when I say it’s never going to happen but then I have to explain after 25 years of rejection at what point does the dog learn from past experience?
The scenarios about outcomes if I disclose to her are all things I have considered. Luckily, (or unluckily because seclusion breeds time for self-denouncement) I am fully disabled so no job, I don’t do organized religion and honestly, MANY MANY MANY people in our community already know about us. When I’ve been confronted I don’t deny it because as I told him, I will keep his secrets to protect him but if someone confronts me directly I will not lie. I avoid innuendos by deflection and only a couple of times have I been directly asked. It’s hard and it takes time to explain because honestly there’s not a viable defense. Our friends who have known from the beginning actually do defend it by saying that while it’s not acceptable there is true love there because flings don’t last through what we’ve been through. So as for her wrecking my life, there isn’t much to wreck and in those areas she can I’ve already placed some light of truth into them. Is whatever she has to throw at me any worse, really, than what I’ve already been through? In my mind, all she has is financial and we can deal with that. The kids are grown and think their dad is God…that’s the part that worries me the most. But as I told him, when does he come clean about the lies he’s been telling them for 25 years, when does he admit to them that things in life aren’t cut and dried, that he’s human and has made many mistakes? Because if their admiration is such an important part of life, when is he going to be worthy of that admiration? He doesn’t deserve it based on the lies that their marriage is great and he’s fully committed to the family. He shuts down when I bring that up…but when he shuts down I know it’s because he’s defensive of my opinion of him AND that he really does take what I say and ruminate it. But back to disclosure…it just seems like in our stupid weakness it may be the only ax that breaks the glass for better or worse.
You said, “He is kind of a wimp in letting you and his wife do his dirty work for him. He doesn’t seem worthy of a lot of respect, either.” I struggle with that so much…because he is such a stellar person in every other aspect of everything that being so devoid of will in this is contrary to everything that comprises who he is and it’s so stark a difference that it’s shocking. If you were wrong we wouldn’t be here having this discussion.
“I actually have told him he owes her financial support and half his retirement. I’ve actually told him that if we move forward he will not try to screw her over but at the same time I don’t want him to get overly punished financially…what’s fair is fair.”
He’s stalling you with excuses; you felt obligated to tell him not to screw her over, so that means he needed to be told.
May his marriage be dissolved in short order and your legal union occur immediately thereafter.
“MANY MANY MANY people in our community already know about us.”
“Our friends who have known from the beginning actually do defend it by saying that while it’s not acceptable there is true love there because flings don’t last through what we’ve been through.”
Oh, well, that makes it okay then! With friends like that laughing at his wife and encouraging ongoing duplicity… Apparently the wedding, the kids, the ongoing relationship behind her back is fine and dandy because he doesn’t truly love her.
Divorce Minister is Christian too. No idea what denomination.
http://www.divorceminister.com/what-just-happened/
Thanks for both responses but I have to clarify, I didn’t HAVE to tell him that. It’s not that the conversation was so that I had to make that assertion. He was lamenting that the outcome would be that financial open wound and I told him that regardless, she is entitled to it. He didn’t say he wasn’t going to pay or anything of that nature. I simply pointed out that he IS the guilty party and she didn’t put effort into their lives expecting this outcome. The friends weren’t giving me a “pass” in the affair or placating me. In fact every time it’s happened it’s been when I’ve doubted it all and their answer wasn’t that I’m not at fault or complicit, it was that there IS something to it or it would’ve ended long ago. I don’t need friends who agree with me out of loyalty, I need friends who jerk a knot in my ass when I deserve it. I’ve cultivated a few and I’m eternally grateful for them.
I’m sorry that I seem to be bringing out the worst in you but maybe this is something we both need to explore. What about your life experience is so hurtful that you can’t attempt to understand? Have you been in his wife’s situation? If so, I am very sorry. But I am not trying to absolve my guilt, I’m trying to understand my compulsion and how it can even be so pervasive.
Tammy,
After that, I got nuthin’.
From what you posted, there’s no good way out. If he loses the respect of his children, he loses their respect. They may understand and accept it or they resent him forever and maybe cut him out of their lives entirely. No Thanksgiving, no Christmas, no grandkids, only you. Or maybe, not even you. Think of that legacy.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistakesdemotivator.jpeg?v=1554328460
Funny you posted that quote. I say it and use it quite often. I’m a case study for it.
Tammy,
Maybe this isn’t so hard to understand.
1. What do you know about his childhood/family of origin?
2. Who really wears the pants in his family?
3. What was your childhood/family of origin like?
Take a look at this https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Does any of that resonate with you?
I’m reading this and I would say it is definitely descriptive of me. I came from a large family and my mother was affectionate my father was not. I think it’s easy to get lost in a large family
Very interesting read. I am familiar with wounded inner child syndrome and codependency. I actually read Melody Beattie’s “Co-dependent No More” as a young woman and found much of it related to me. I have actively worked hard, albeit it alone, to combat the compulsions. Needless to say, my family dynamic was horrid. My mother coerced my father into marrying her through unwanted pregnancy, proceeded to be dismissive of our needs while being razor-focused on whichever man was the object of her attention at the moment, often abusive in multiple ways. Dad was extraordinarily strict, demanding and unaccepting of any behavior he didn’t approve of. When teaching me if I didn’t grasp the concept immediately I was told I was stupid and hit in the head with pencils. When they divorced at nine, because she was so mentally inept, mother didn’t want us to orbit dad because she wanted to hurt him so much that she would tell us he didn’t want us (even though it could’ve just been moments ago she refused him visitation) and made up diabolical, debased lies about him. And he allowed it to avoid the displeasure of a fight, resulting in a distance he never wanted. Being damaged is the understatement of the year.
Regarding your questions: I do know about his family. We were raised in the same community and kept a circle of friends that often overlapped but don’t remember each other as our groups were a bit different. He was poor and his mother was a devout caregiver while his father was stricter and more the traditional bread winner. The pants in his family aren’t something I’m privy to. I know they (even extended family) rely on him much more heavily than is normal but as for actually calling the shots in his direct family I’m unsure. We already discussed my family.
So basically what I’m reading is that I’ve been screwed since the womb and any emotional attachment I form will be unhealthy and inapproriate. I’m going to project then that since I’m too exhausted in every single way one can be including mentally, physically and emotionally that my best path forward at this point is to let the chips fall where they will and when it doesn’t work out just stay alone because I have NO reserves left to fight. Great….the abandonment I’ve been avoiding all my life. I’m just no longer interested in forming any other relationship with anyone for any need or reason. I’ve already told him if there’s no “us” in the future, there’s no “us” for me and I guess I’m creating that reality. So be it.
Tammy,
Again, I don’t really know what to say. But, the only way to get past it is to confront it. If you don’t have the reserves for it, then you’ve consigned yourself to fate.
Not really wishing to add any more fuel to the fire, I have to ask, if he was available, what do you think would be different? You two are who you are. At least one of you is carrying around this can of deep-seated resentment. “WARNING – CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE.” If his wife dropped dead this afternoon, you’re still who you are and he’s still who he is. Criticize him harshly, he’s still going to break into tears and you’ll still be walking on eggshells. You just wouldn’t have his wife as the villain. It’s so much easier when there’s a villain.
LwL is a great place and we’re grateful to DrL for providing it. There are a lot of empathetic, compassionate people here who can listen and provide support and advice but it’s not a substitute for professional help. LwL can provide an opening to understanding a lot of things and DrL has developed some great tools for managing it but LwL can’t fix what brought us here. It just can’t.
I post a lot and have some pretty well-defined ideas about things. I worked with therapists, I’ve talked with therapists, and I’ve read enough books and did enough research to be a thesis short of a degree in this. But, I don’t have that degree. I’m not a mental health professional. We’ve had a few post here but they’re not part of the official program. There are times that you need to call in the pros, some real heavy-hitters and not somebody’s niece or nephew fresh out of school trying to start a practice. Sometimes, you somebody like Schreiber who knows what she’s doing.
LO #4 said I opened her eyes to what was happening in her relationship and she would always be grateful to me. In the end, she said her ex assaulted her from behind and when she turned around, he gave her a bloody nose. I don’t know if that’s true. What I know is they’re not together and she moved 1000 miles to get away from him. The point is, if it is true, and I was the one who opened her eyes, she was assaulted because I started something. I hate that thought.
I hope what I post helps people but if it doesn’t, I don’t want to make anyone’s life worse. Honestly, though, you’re miserable and seeing a pro is the only viable way to stop being miserable. It’s gonna hurt but that pain will fade. What you’re carrying around now won’t. It can’t.
Unfortunately, nobody can do this for you. I wish you the best.
Not to create labels but your upbringing sounds very familiar. Have you ever researched cluster B personalities and how having a parent with traits present in BPD, NPD or psychopathy makes one susceptible to choosing a person with such traits as a partner in the future?
I’ve experienced limerence only once. I just learned there was a name for it today. From my own experience, I am convinced it is “trauma bonding”. I ended this relationship a year ago and I still struggle to break the bond.
I really haven’t relegated the outcome to fate, I’m just vacillating from fighting and trying to understand to utter exhaustion. As soon as I rest and get a bit of strength I’ll be back to it. I am not too proud to admit I need help. He needs help and she may or may not know it yet, but she’ll need help too. The one thing I am proud of is that I don’t see her as a villain. In our younger days, when I worked alongside his sister, who loves to make trouble and would tell me all manner of horrid things, I did. But I grew and I know she must have some admirable traits or he wouldn’t have stayed all this time. She wouldn’t have raised two kids who appear to be well-adjusted adults. Maybe it’s simple empathy or some shade of codependency, but I hate to the depths of my soul the thought of anyone else going through this. You’ve all been invaluable and I’m truly grateful.
Since the subject of greatest hits has come up, I’d like to revisit this post and have another go at defining limerence:
— Limerence is an addiction to attention from a specific person, who meets all one’s unconscious criteria for a mate. The focus of limerence must have given the sufferer hope at some stage that a relationship is possible, but not too much hope. Limerence is an involuntary state only experienced by some people. —
I think what really, really defines limerence is the desire to secure attention from a certain person, and then becoming addicted to that attention when it’s forthcoming. Maybe we should zero in on the attention angle? I.e. it’s not about sex. It’s not about looks. It’s not about intimacy even. It’s about attention.
I think it’s possible to have a crush on an admired someone who doesn’t provide direct attention. e.g. a well-regarded individual in an institution one attends. An LO is different from a crush, because an LO must have given us highly-desired, personalised attention at some stage. They must have genuinely focused their attention on us, in other words. This attention, though, is irregular.
thanks you for telling here, it fills my heart with joy to hear that.
I have never posted anything to a board. Recently i’ve had some time (like all of us) to think about things. Im in my 50s. Im realizing that i still feel strongly about my first “love”. Truthfully i don’t think it was real. I kept all her letters. And as a man i’ve learned that what i thought and believed as a 15 year old to 19-20 year old doesn’t add up to love. Trying to figure out if anything was real.
I would say that both love and limerence begin as a crush, but saying limerence is “just” a crush would be like saying alcoholism is just getting drunk. While the effects of alcoholism are more physical and seen, limerence happens in the mind and emotions instead of the stomach and bloodstream.
I feel most of what is described as limerence, for a dead man. I’ve never met him. He’s been dead for over 30 years, but I got to know him 5 years ago. I feel as if he’s alive. Since then I think of him 24/7 and everything I do in my life is directly or indirectly related to him. But it’s not a problem. He makes me happy and my life is much better with him. I just want to know if it’s still called limerence because for me is INTENSE DEEP LOVE.
Hello Telmara,
Your post begs the question: how does one meet some one five years ago when the person has been dead for 30 years?
Reading your comment made me think of Anohni and the Johnsons’ song “I Fell In Love With a Dead Boy”. Coincidentally, the one who introduced me to this song was a beautiful boy who died too early too. He’s like a little brother to me, and he introduced me to great songs like this while he was working at a record store. All good memories now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H03VpvUtm6k
For me (a married man no longer in love with his wife of 30 years) the understanding of the phases was helpful: Infatuation – Crystallization – Deterioration. Regardless of where I am in that progression I’m at peace even while knowing I can never have my crush of about two years. It’s honest to say I love her and I’m not ashamed of it. We don’t speak but I will guess she knows because (I believe) most women are highly intuitive and sense when someone loves them. I wish her every happiness every day and thank God for creating someone so wonderful … I’ve prayed for God to endorse a reciprocal relationship but also realize it wouldn’t be satisfying for her. Although sad that it cannot be consummated, it feels so good to honestly and purely love someone.
Hi Paul,
This is an interesting post. I am sorry you are not in love with your wife of thirty years. Do you still love her though? Do you remain together for other reasons? There were many instances when I didn’t feel/wasn’t in love with my husband (14 years). I am sure he felt the same at times too. Ironically, it was in the beginning of our marriage (first 10 years). Now, after counseling and rekindling our friendship, I feel more love for him than before. It is not the high of limerence or passion, but more of a steady, stable, slow-burning love. And I appreciate it more than any limerence I could have for someone.
Would you and your wife consider trying to find ways to be in love again? I am just curious. I wish you well. And I am glad that you wish your limerent person well also.
Hi Paul,
“Although sad that it cannot be consummated, it feels so good to honestly and purely love someone.”
This strikes a chord with me and my LO. It’s like I was given a chance to look into love with God’s eyes…even if it was for a short time.
Quote: “And yet it’s enough for me to say, something beautiful
passed my way.”
“Everything good lasts only sufficiently to become unforgettable.”
Best wishes.