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Living with Limerence

Life, love, and limerence

Update and a little light relief

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A couple of weeks ago, I asked you what you wanted, and you replied!

Many thanks to all those that completed the survey on what you want more of here at LwL. Here are the results:

I have to say, it’s pretty great to see that you basically want more of what I’ve been doing: blogging on limerence recovery from a scientific perspective.

But, the other obvious result confirms what many people have previously asked for: a private forum or community.

I’m going to do it.

It’ll take a bit of time to figure out how best to implement it, recruit moderators, fund it etc., but it’s something that’s so obviously useful that I’m going to sort it. Watch this space…

A little light relief

The last couple of posts have been quite heavy, so time for something a bit more silly. Scharnhorst emailed to suggest a post on the Lighter Side of Limerence, and I think that’s an excellent idea.

I think we’ve probably all got some embarrassing memories of crazy schemes we thought would impress LO, or times when we’ve had a moment of clarity about our own ridiculousness.

What? I totally meant to get myself into this situation

So, in the spirit of a group therapy session, let’s share the levity. I’ll kick things off:

One of my LOs was a bit of an intellectual snob, and also liked to mess with guys who tried to hit on her in bars.

One time, while I was trying to hit on her in a bar, she told me about a previous occasion when she’d started a super-earnest conversation about Marcel Proust and the nature of memory and longing, with a guy who was trying to chat her up. The joke, of course, was that the poor dupe had no idea what to say!

You probably had to be there to fully appreciate the hilarity…

Anyway. It was obvious what I had to do. I had to read some Proust.

And fast! Before I became that pathetic loser who didn’t know anything about French literature.

Bear in mind that I am old, and so this all happened more than twenty years ago. That meant no internet, so I actually had to go to an actual bricks-and-mortar library to find a copy of Remembrance of Things Past, and slog my way through what is – let me tell you – some seriously turgid and testing prose, even in translation.

Blah, blah, blah, madeleines… wtf?

Now, I know Proust’s a genius and all, but let’s just say that, as a limerent twenty year old who wasn’t exactly motivated by self-improvement, I wasn’t really very receptive to the themes.

Anyhow, armed with my fresh knowledge, I was now naturally keen to impress LO with my obvious superiority to a random bar fly. So, the next time we got together, I deftly steered the conversation back onto the subject of Proust, so as to dazzle and amaze her with my astonishing depth, and cause her to immediately fall in love with me.

“Oh, I’ve never actually read Proust!” she exclaimed. “It’s boring as shit; no I just said that so he’d piss off.”

“Ha, ha!” I retorted, skilfully. “Good one!”

So, to recap: I was intellectually insecure enough to rush to the library and panic-read Proust in an attempt to persuade a somewhat mean-spirited woman that I was more attractive than a random stranger.

What a winner 🙂

Now, I can’t be the only one. Don’t be shy! Add your tales of woe to the comments below…

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Comments

  1. I only stalked one LO in any way really, which involved hanging around his workplace in an office above a Starbucks in a central London office block… I was probably 24/5?

    It was nowhere that I should normally have been so obviously he asked me why I was there… and then there again… and my best explanation…

    Delivered entirely earnestly…

    Was that one of London’s best kept secrets was that the coffee at that Starkbucks was the best in London… because I had friends you see? Who knew lots about coffee… and so you know. That was why I was commuting 45 minutes from my home because THAT Starbucks was… special.

    I might have mentioned elsewhere, LO just looked rather bemused which basically triggered me to go into even more conspiratorial reasons about London’s best kept coffee secret; Starbucks. In Hammersmith.

    (What a muppet!)

    • I love this one, @Thomas! Tbh, I imagine many many of us doing something similar. Once limerance hijacks our brains, the weirdest shit happens. Being a somewhat a coffee snob, I’d say any statement proclaiming Starbucks to be special in any way is funny af! Marcel Proust would agree.

      • I don’t consider myself a coffee snob, but I know that there is nothing that special about Starbucks (the McD of coffee) and scoff at the false “hip vibe” they work very hard to promote.

    • I mean… this wasn’t an LO winning formula I’m afraid.

      If I’d been really smooth I’d have been reading Proust over my mochaknicksbochagloryfrappacino with extra sprinkles. (Which is the connoisseurs choice, as all of my cultured European friends tell me!)

      Alas, at 25 I’d have had no clue of who Proust was!

      Do you feel Proust made you a better person, Dr. L?

      😀

      • Do you feel Proust made you a better person, Dr. L?

        I got very little out of it, but as I say, I wasn’t reading out of authentic interest.

        I’m probably much more open to the themes now, so it could be worth revisiting…

    • That’s really glorious, man. Just imagining what your LO must’ve thought when you told him that cracks me up.

    • Haha. Just might be convincing to someone who knows nothing about coffee… But 45 minutes is still a long way to go for the best coffee. And a Starbucks doesn’t sound exotic enough. You’d have to be awfully particular about your choice brew!

        • Oddly enough, I think Marcel Proust is the one person who might truly go for the “I’m here for the great coffee” story – he’d make a whole novel out of it. I haven’t read him, but I know he loved little details.

  2. LO2 and I knew each other from going to the same library to study, and, being a limerent, I soon started keeping mental notes of her daily schedule. She used to have a smoke break around 11:00 and 18:00 and, being a non smoker, I had to invent some reason so I could go out and chat with her. Sometimes I just acted like I was going to do some errand, and then go around the block and return once I had talked with her, but another excuse that I used a lot was buying chewing gum. In fact, one of my first conversations with her was asking her where to buy some (because, you see, gum is a precious commodity that you can find only in the most select shops). So I ended up with such a hoard of chewing gum from buying packs twice a day that it took months after the LE was over to see it finally disappear.

    Oh, and she was also (well, sort of) the reason I got an earring in my left ear. She had hers full of little helix hoops and I liked that so much that I ended up putting one in mine to impress her. Best part, she stopped coming to the library before the piercing was really ready, so I didn’t have a chance to show her.

    • Oh, and she was also (well, sort of) the reason I got an earring in my left ear.

      I contemplated an LO-impressing tattoo, but decided against it.

      • @Dr. L,
        I think we explored this topic before in the Allure of Bad Girls/Boys post. Would you believe it: I actually did this. Got a tattoo (my first) in part because of LO and her tattoos and my pathetic attempt to impress. I say in part because I had been thinking about it before my LE but yeah, the thought of impressing her and having that in common was what finally convinced me to do it.
        I don’t regret it but I recognize how an incredibly stupid and pathetic thing it was to do. But then again, that’s limerence isn’t it? haha.

        • @Thomas
          I actually love it. But knowing I never would have gotten it had I not met LO is what’s so silly. I knew that going in. I knew it would be there forever, long after LO left my life. And that it could be a permanent reminder of her. But that’s part of what made me do it. I got it to remind myself of this very dark period I went through. But (hopefully) came through. I don’t want to forget this LE. Because I never want it to happen again.
          And it’s no small piece. And not exactly inconspicuous. Limerence and midlife is not a good combo. Lol.

        • @Fay,

          That’s a bit of a heartbreaker, I don’t tend to make it very far with those!

          Take care. Hope you feel better.

        • Thanks Thomas,
          Was feeling particularly lonely in my LC today. I hope it gets better, it’s only been a couple of weeks since I saw him. I couldn’t take any more of the Hot and Cold from him – have no idea why he was doing that as it was him who stopped our ‘nearly relationship’ but maybe he was struggling. I bloody well hope so as he’s thoroughly broken my heart!!!!
          Good luck to you too, we need it.

        • Hey Fay,
          I’m also recovering from an on-off thing. It’s tough, because of course there were probably times when it seemed possible it would be properly ‘on’.

          But it wasn’t. It went off again.

          That’s what happened repeatedly with my last LE. Finally I went NC feeling completely baffled at my own ‘banging head on brick wall’ idiocy, but also just heartbroken.

          But Fay, it’s your heart you know? So take that broken heart back from his grasp and it’ll heal. That song you linked to I didn’t watch the whole thing, because I got the pangs, felt the pain. But it’ll be OK. Sounds like you’re doing the right thing with LC.

          Good luck and stay strong. Hope you can squeeze a bit of fun out of the weekend!

        • Thanks for your kindness Thomas. He has kindness too but doesn’t want to give it to me. Long story. Marriages, friendships, etc. I get it but I’m so sad that I’m the one to lose out. I don’t want to go into too much detail but this was a last chance for me. He kept up the flirting and checking me out for 6 to 8 months until I caved and let him know subtly that I was interested. Then he thought about it for 2 weeks and then placed his hand over mine in the coffee shop (in order to take my glass to get water, but no need to cover my hand with his, so I knew.) My SO patted him on the shoulder on our way out and mumbled something about not falling out with him which I believe was about some disagreement of opinion they had. I quizzed him on why he patted LOs shoulder to see if he sensed something and I believe he was totally oblivious to our flirtation. Anyway, that was enough for LO to back off completely. I’d known him for about 2 years before he started the checking out and we got along as friends. Maybe he felt I wouldn’t connect the dots and so it was safe to flirt with me as I’m unfortunately a lot older than him. Anyway, all gone now. Don’t think too badly of me flirting with him in front of my SO, there is much history there…walk a mile in my shoes, etc. and I was never obvious about it. Anyway it was only flirting. I was incredibly flattered and would have (I think) put a stop to anything more anyway but I never got the chance. Now I feel like an ‘old’ fool who let her guard down with a younger man for no reason at all and just embarrassed herself. Oh, f… it!
          And I’ve found to my cost and his, because he wants friendship again, that you cannot go back once you’ve crossed that line….

  3. I signed up to do an online CPPE course on Mental Health that LO said he was going to do.
    Guess what?
    I signed up and did the course to give us something else to talk about, he didn’t bother.
    On the upside, I learned a lot about Mental Health and medicines used.

    Also a friend-of-a-friend was organising a Quiz Night that was being held at a venue very close to LOs house. Normally I’d have bought some raffle tickets and left it at that, but secretly hoping to see LO outside of work, I tried to get together a team and actively promoted it on Facebook.
    The week after LO asked how the quiz went, and said sorry he was away.
    If only I’d looked at the Leave Planner before…

    Still at least no harm was done!! (We did OK in the quiz and it raised a good amount of money!)

    • ‘I signed up and did the course to give us something else to talk about, he didn’t bother.’

      Just gave me a right cackle!

      😀

    • Just remembered – I hated socialising with the people from work, but LO had signed up and paid to go to the Christmas Bowling, so I did too.

      The day of the event we were working and LO said he’s not going. He just signed up to get one of the other colleagues off his case about it.

      By this point I’d already agreed to drive a few people (including my Dad who worked in another area there) and it would raise questions if I didn’t go.

  4. This is a great topic! On a similar note: have you done something triggered by the LO that you actually enjoyed doing after the LE was over? One of my LOs was a big fan of sci-fi and fantasy books, and I was never into the genre. I looked down at it, actually. I read some Le Guin books just because he suggested, and later on I started enjoying the genre even when I was not limerent for him anymore. The Left Hand of Darkness remains one of my favorite books to this day, and years later I keep reading short stories on speculative fiction, the type of literature 20-year-old me would NEVER read if it weren’t for that limerent phase.

    • “On a similar note: have you done something triggered by the LO that you actually enjoyed doing after the LE was over?”

      Definitely.

      LO #1: I learned a lot from observing her on different recreational drugs. She taught me about Southwestern Native American mysticism, taught me how to read auras and took me to a Shaman try to faith heal me after I got mono from her, likely from her bong-swapping buddies.

      But the best memory ever is turning a corner in my apartment to see her standing in the window buck naked dry-firing my .44 Magnum revolver over the University Quad.

      LO #2: She taught me how to appreciate and make good coffee, what colors and styles looked good on me, introduced me to Japanese cuisine, and showed me nooks and crannies of Seattle that only a native would know.

      One of the best memories was taking a tipsy LO on an excursion thru a porn shop.

      LO #3: We never really had much of a romantic relationship but did become pretty good friends. My best memory of her is holding her by the belt as she leaned over the rail of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge at 3 AM one morning.

      LO #4: Our acquaintance was entirely online but we got pretty deep in the weeds. When I was a moderator on her site, we’d banter ruthlessly with each other. One of the other mods made a comment about it.

      Being in the Navy and holding a security clearance probably held me back from doing really something really squirrelly.

  5. Love this!

    I wrote this week about the enormous canoe in my bedroom I have to climb over now, never used, because LO loved to be on the water.

    With a previous LE I went all the way to Venezuela because he had been there and it would give me something to talk about, since I got robbed with a gun to my head the first day, it actually did !
    My sister actually moved to Germany to be closer to her LO, she rang his bell to tell him the news, he told her he was just about to move elsewhere.
    I once paniced because I was angry at LO and ignored him, it felt so childish I had to come up with an excuse to not react, I told him I had a weird car crash with a tractor hitting me from behind, ( I did, 2 years ago)
    When I picked up LO with my car he mentioned the damage on my car, what was clearly done by me miscalculated the space in a parking lot, and not on the back.
    I can go on and on …

  7. I started a phd program to impress an LO… LO is long gone, but I have yet to finish the phd.

    Another LO was crazy about motorcycles. I went with him to a motorcycle exhibition… for hours he told me everything I never wanted to know about motorcycles.

    All the music genres I started to listen because of LOs…

      • I actually started and completed a Doctorate Degree to impress an LO who had two doctorate degrees. We are in the same office practice but I have been applying super human strength to only interact with him if it is absolutely necessary. Prior to that, I got a Masters Degree to impress another LO who had a doctorate degree. I thought, once I get my Masters/Doctorate degree, they will profess their love for me. I have had it, no more LOs after those two.

    • I went to law school in part to impress a girl, but she wasn’t an LO. It wasn’t the sole factor that sent me there… it was a common path in my career field at the time and some family members did it. But a large part of the motivation was this crush I had on a girl who only wanted to be a lawyer.

      I dropped out after 3 semesters. That girl is now one of the most successful lawyers in the area. She is wealthy beyond belief, but she sacrificed her personal relationships to achieve career success. She has two Porsches to go with her huge house on her 6 acres but no family to share any of that with. It’s sad… she was nice, cute, flirtatious, and sometimes I wonder what my life would be like if I kept up the pursuit.

      Funny enough, the fact that I dropped out of law school was actually one of the factors that made two employers pick me over other candidates. They liked that I had the ability to take a step back, realize something wasn’t working, and cut my losses and move to something else.

    • Wow. Impressive way to impress. One thing that makes me laugh now is I tried (in vain) to learn how to play a PlayStation video game they liked. But the last video game I really knew how to play was Missile Command on the Atari 2600. 😂

  8. Okay gosh I don’t even know what to put down because I’ve done this waaay too many times but I do remember what I *didnt* do which was binge watch fifty shades of grey on Netflix after LO said they were “the most romantic” movies in her opinion – it was good to know I had some limits even in the midst of the LE!!!

    • …just like I couldn’t bring myself to watch the 10,000 plus hours of Ru Paul’s Drag Race on Netflix. Even though LO wouldn’t bloody stop going on about it…

      ‘Oh! That’s just like when Trixy did blah blah blah in Season 5…’

      Seriously. I don’t care.

      However, though I say that rather heroically now… I can’t say it hasn’t ever crossed my mind ‘Maybe if I’d watched Ru Paul’s Drag Race things would have worked out?’.

  9. LO#1 held regular open air banjo classes. I was the only one who showed up regularly without a banjo. One time I thought it would be more subtle if I just lurked behind a tree. LO pretended to not notice me, but eventually a bemused smile emerged. Everyone in the class saw it and turned around to see me, not trying to look simultaneously invisible and nonchalant behind a skinny tree. They all smirked, then went back to their strumming. I was sure I would perish by mortification in a grove of trees. My cheeks still burn thinking about it even though it was a very, very long time ago.

  10. – knowingly missed my last train in order to make sure she got on her’s after a night out (on various occasions). Cue a VERY expensive cab and inquisition from SO…

    – signed up for a work weekend away only because I saw LO had signed up. She didn’t go in the end but I did and was at least 10 years older than anyone else on the trip….

    – changed the whole office seating plan so she’d be sat next to me and no-one else…

      • There was a reason to change it, but of course I took over and made sure it suited me…. I suspect there was some eye rolling but no-one said anything. Technically it made sense as LO worked closest with me, but then again that was also my design as I gave her that job!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

  12. I started following all of the Instagram accounts of LO’s favorite restaurants, pubs and travel destinations so I could pretend when I talked to him that I was into it. I. feel. so. silly.

  13. This is all so much cringey-fun! One of my long ago LO’s was a physician. We had been given pagers at my work so we could be summoned to different floors as needed (pagers! so long ago!) and I took a continuing education course conveniently in his town (across the country) which he was very pleased about as he also wanted to spend time with me (probably mutual limerence at that point). He picked me up from the airport and lo! I was sporting MY pager too … (just like an on-call physician which he was but I most certainly was not) …he amusedly remarked how dedicated I must be to my work if I had my pager on whilst attending a class ACROSS THE COUNTRY. Needless to say, the pager never went off during the week I was there. But i was ready with it proudly on my belt.

    • Matching pagers?!
      That’s real ‘written in the stars’ stuff Jaideux. Did this LO not have a heart!

      I mean apart from ‘we must now be together forever!’ what could these pagers indicate?

      …or maybe just ‘fax on floor 3.’ (My first reception job involved running faxes over to people’s desks! Didn’t get a pager though.)

      • Thomas, YES! if matching pagers doesn’t say “we were meant to be!” then what does? 😉

  14. I don’t know if it’s funny or not, but I pretended to like the LOTR movies more than I actually did because LO was a fan. I even tried to read some of the books, but couldn’t get past the first few chapters. Ah well. Fantasy fiction was one thing we definitely didn’t (and still don’t) have in common…

  15. Another odd thought. I think my LO’s family liked me better than my LO ever did! I actually got along really well with her mother, her father, and her brother. Her mother even encouraged us to stay in touch. (She didn’t listen to her mother!)

    In hindsight, if LO and I did have a genuine relationship and get married, what a weird dynamic that would have been! “Oh, sorry, honey. I think I like your relatives more than I like you. We really have nothing in common. But your folks are the best and your brother is brilliant.” Good in-laws are hard to find, right?

    • So weird right Sammy?

      My recent LO and I briefly became a ‘thing’, at which point my LE completely paused. There were clear incompatibilities, but then the moment it was ‘not a thing’ suddenly LE kicked straight back in.

      Never met the prospective in laws though.

      I don’t get how that works. This romantic/sexual infatuation with people who are so ill-suited. In my case I haven’t really had LEs with people I’m actually compatible with… outside of fantasies where everything is somehow accommodated.

      • Yeah, makes me think limerence is just Mother Nature’s way of mixing up the gene pool and/or encouraging us to socialise with people outside of our “tribe”. (Might meet someone who inadvertently triggers euphoria! Yay! What a buzz!) What did I get out of my LEs? Um, slightly better social skills maybe? I’m more comfortable chatting to strangers anyway. That’s a plus.

  16. The closest thing to embarrassing myself that didn’t involve being rejected by my LO was with LO3. Valentine’s Day was approaching, and I remember speaking to their parents one day and in the course of that conversation I learned that LO3 had a fondness for architecture, chemistry and a TV show.

    A few days later, I was consumed by this idea of creating an album of photographs of different architectural designs with captions of quotes from this TV show and references to the periodic table. Long story short, I created this simple, but breathtaking album that, through the captions and periodic table references, emphasized our chemistry and asked them to be my valentine. Everything was planned out – to when and how I would present it to them all the way down to the socks I was going to wear …

    Then reality hit me in the face a couple days before Valentine’s Day when, speaking to their mother, I learned that LO3 hated Valentine’s Day and had done for several years. All my hard work was flushed away just like that! 😀 Of course, after LO3 rejected me a few months later, when I had toned back my romantic intent, did I realize I had dodged a bullet.

    As for the album? I have kept it, safely stored in the attic, until such time I can bear to look at it once more.

      • @Jaideux, I was quite proud of the effort I put into creating the album – from the pictures to the quotations, and including the chemistry element too. 🙂 In light of what transpired with LO3, I am glad that reality did step in and prevent me embarrassing myself. I shudder to think what they would have thought had I gone ahead and given it to them!

        Definitely, Mia. One of these days I will go over the album and decide what to do with it. For the moment, its existence is a reminder of not to do any crazy things for an LO, something that has kept me in check somewhat with my ongoing limerence for LO4.

        On a related point, has anyone here gone out of their way to show interest in a prospective romantic partner’s hobbies even if you don’t actually care for that topic? Both of the romances I’ve had I went out of my way to familiarize myself with hobbies that they were crazy about, but didn’t continue once said romances were over.

  17. Enjoying these stories. I’m sure if I wasn’t only 15 and had more ways and means my first LE would have had many similar tales. I’m so thankful social media wasn’t invented back then. I dread to think!

    My second LE was fleeting. But did have influence. There is a good chance I wouldn’t be living where I do if it wasn’t for that. I had a choice of places to work which were pretty on par but choose here as it’s close to his home town. By the time I moved I was well over it. I don’t regret my decision but it’s amazing how powerful limerence is.

    Things are different with my current LO. He is a coworker and an extreme dismissive avoidant (really, others have said so and he’s even hinted that he is aware of it) so I haven’t done anything drastic or embarrassing as I know reaching out excessively (or even in what most others would consider a normal friendly way) would be counterproductive.

    I’m doing pretty well with the LC but it isn’t always having the desired effect as he is more likely to initiate a conversation if I give him space which gives me a much bigger high than if I initiate, even though it is much less frequent. Contriving to be in his presence etc is not something I would do. In fact I tend to lean more towards avoiding him to limit the risk that I will overwhelm him. LC has two conflicting aims for me – winning him and getting over him. It’s really difficult. I’ve not embarrassed myself/spent a fortune which I suppose is a good thing but often I wish I could actively persue. Barriers, uncertainty – it’s all there.

    • @Cio! Let’s take a pause and talk DAs! Give me some tangible examples of his avoidance. The subject fascinates me.

      • Yes. I find attachment theory very interesting. And useful. And I mean outside of my LE. I recommend everyone reads about it.

        My LO’s DA-ness manifests itself as extreme defensiveness. Plus I suspect he feels a lot of shame. I realise now that any interaction with me has the potential to upset him so all I can do is give him space as much as possible and hope he’ll one day start to trust me. Even when the limerence goes I still have to work with him and that can be difficult sometimes.

        I’ll give a few examples but first to set the scene. We work together in a fairly loose sense. I don’t answer to him, he doesn’t answer to me or my immediate boss. We are though required to ask things of each other on occasion to do our jobs. I can sometimes go weeks without interacting with him.

        Early on, before I knew better, I made a friendly enquiring about a task I knew was on the horizon for him. It wasn’t anything I required of him but it was interesting and I was genuinely interested. I said something along the lines of “how did you get on with such-and-such?” Instead of saying something like “not done it, not had time, I’ll let you know”. It was a mini tirade about exactly how busy he’s been therefore he’d not done it and he didn’t know when he would. Subject closed.

        Then there was a small task I did ask of him. I asked, he seemed genuine fine about doing it. I left it for a good while, a lot longer than I would have expected it would take, then made a very gentle enquiry if he’d done it yet. I needed to know so I could do my bit. Cue another defensive response. Then, interestingly, when he came back to say he’d done it he was excessively apologetic. Strikingly so. It really wasn’t a big thing. He must have just forgotten but he clearly felt terrible.

        He is very diligent. I suspect he has very high standards for himself. That’s a big part of the problem. And not to say that all our interactions are bad. Vast majority aren’t and that makes it difficult. I think things are fine then something will trigger him and his response is extreme.

        This one was the worst. The overt stonewalling incident. Too long to go into much detail here. Essentially, I asked something of him, I admittedly didn’t communicate it well, he refused, I asked if we could discuss the reasons why, he shut me down and said he didn’t have time to talk, then unfortunately I lost my cool and got really irate. Once he understood why I was asking he apologised. I knew he felt bad about that for a long time because he became quite attentive (for him anyway) which really didn’t help my limerence. Now he’s putting his armour back on which is causing me to panic. I would have said in other circumstances I’m secure/dismissive avoidant but my word he brings out the anxiety in me.

        • If he’s really a DA, he’s only going to let you get so close before his distancing defenses kick in and he bumps your orbit further out. He probably has little to no idea what his tolerance level is so he comes across as capricious and arbitrary. Once you’re at a safe distance, things can pick up again. It drives you nuts.

          There are four things you need to take into account when dealing with DAs. I think two DAs could craft a positively delightful relationship if the met the following criteria.

          1. How big is his/her orbit of intimacy? Some DAs can tolerate more intimacy than others. Ideally, two DAs should be able to tolerate close to the same level of intimacy.

          2. Are they aware of their attachment style and can they deal with it? A lot of people aren’t aware of their attachment style and how it affects things.

          3. DAs usually get along best with other DAs or Secures. Anxious attachments and fearful-avoidants tend to drive us nuts. DAs don’t think they need people and they don’t want people to need them. LO #2 told me that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone and my response to her was that there was nobody I couldn’t live without.

          4. How flexible is their boundary? Can the tolerate some closeness and intimacy before they push back, like pushing and underinflated balloon or do they summarily dismiss someone who tries to get close to them like a ping-pong ball bouncing off a bowling ball. At some point in a relationship, one part will need comfort and support from the other. The DAs boundary must be flexible enough to handle that without driving the in-distress partner away.

          If he’s a DA, you need to handle him accordingly. Or, you can find someone who isn’t a DA.

        • DAs tend to be unaware of their “shortcomings.” Mine has so little emotional intelligence that when I asked to talk about how he feels about something, he said “he sucks at talking feelings.” What middle aged man says such thing? I suspected aspergers but in the end, couldn’t be sure bc socially, he passed just enough.

        • “DAs tend to be unaware of their “shortcomings.” Agreed, but if they are…

          DAs often aren’t fragile, but they can be brittle. They can have very hard and tough exteriors but hit that hidden flaw and they can shatter like a frozen windshield. And, if you should get past their paper mache exterior, you probably won’t find much. It’s hollow. No prize, not even any Cracker Jack. Somebody forgot to fill that pinata.

          If they’re aware of that flaw, they go to great lengths to hide or protect it. Of course, you’re LO didn’t want to talk about his feelings. That conversation could be very uncomfortable and highlight cracks in that carefully crafted facade he maintains. Way easier to avoid that than deal with it.

          Q: What’s the difference between a good paint job and a great paint job?
          A: About 10 feet.

          DAs like to be respected but they don’t want to be examined.

          Traits like self-sufficiency, competence, and resilience are good qualities but with DAs, those come at a price.

        • @Schar… so you include yourself in the DA category and have so much self awareness? I thought those two were mutually exclusive? Sarcasm aside.. your description is so harsh, I wonder if they even feel genuine love? Or is their version of love different from mine?

        • @AS,

          Since you hit “Play…” and the “Stop” button’s broken… I can only speak from my experience, what I’ve read, and what I’ve heard from professionals. Everybody’s different.

          Despite what DAs would like you to believe, it isn’t something to be proud of. We like to make people think it is. This is a pretty decent article on DAs. https://www.envisionwellness.co/dismissive-avoidant-attachment-in-adults/ Their article on fearful-avoidants is pretty good, too.

          The section on how DAs come about is relevant. In my case, both my parents were alcoholics and my father was a traveling salesman. When my mother was passed out, I’d steal gas money from her scooter, walk two blocks to Woolworth’s and buy food or eat celery and peanut butter until my father got home. Later, my father told me that when the chips are down, the only person you can rely on is yourself. My mother died of an apparently accidental overdose of pills and alcohol when I was 18 and my father committed suicide when I was 23. He was right.

          As an adolescent, I was massively insecure. I could either become a doormat and take all that comes with it or I could become so competent, cynical and sarcastic that nobody would screw with me. In social circles, I was like an animal that lurks just beyond the range of the campfire. I wanted to know what was going on but I didn’t want to be part of it. I wanted to tolerated and respected but didn’t want to draw attention to myself. I looked for girls to date that who would raise my stock but who not so popular as to bring me into the limelight with her. I had a plan.

          My history of my relationship with LO #2, had a lot of history of my family and previous relationships in it. When the therapist read it, she said that I knew I was a fixer and avoidant back in HS. She said I had a very good idea of what I was doing but not why and what the implications were. The therapist said that for a story about an ex-girlfriend, I talked a lot about my mother in it.

          I was 25 and I know exactly where I was and what I was doing when I made the decision to turn. But, just because I wanted to change didn’t mean I knew how and what that entailed. It took about 7 years to get to the point where I could fake it well enough to function but it took another 20 years to understand it all. All my childhood baggage followed me right into my marriage. It had a lasting effect on my marriage but we made it through. That’s more a tribute to my wife than it is to me. LO #2 was a runner. My wife is a fighter. When the crap hit the fan, LO #2 took off. My wife stood up and fought. She could have run but she didn’t. You don’t give up on somebody like that.

          LO #2 never did much to make me want to play house with her. The first time I got sick when we were together she accused me of faking it to get out of Christmas shopping until she came back to the hotel room and found me puking my guts out.
          But, close to the end, I came down with the flu. She came over, took care of me, did the laundry, cleaned my house and cooked. I asked her why she was being so nice to me. She said, “It’s the first time since I’ve known you that you needed someone.” When she made her great confession, she said, “…You don’t need me….” She was wrong, I needed someone, I wanted her. She also said that I was the first person to ever pursue her. She said that in all her previous relationships, she started them and she ended them. Interestingly, my wife said that I was the first person to seriously pursue her. I went after LO #4, she didn’t come after me. That’s not a DA trait.

          The clinical literature says it takes 3-5 years to change an insecure attachment to an “earned secure attachment” under the care of a competent therapist. I think it can DIY if you let it. I got my “earned secure attachment” from my wife. I needed a therapist to explain that. I’m less of a DA now, more like small “d,” small “a.”

          My experience with LO #2 didn’t sour me on relationships, it made me want to find another one. That one didn’t work but maybe the next one would, and it did. LO #2 taught me that happiness was a possibility. I learned what work and what didn’t. I never made the mistake again of telling someone I cared about that there was nobody I can’t live without. I still believe it but I don’t wear it on my sleeve.

          Between being happy and unhappy, happy is better. What I was doing didn’t contribute to my happiness so I started doing things differently until it did.

          Maybe your LO will come around and maybe he won’t. My money’s on the latter.

          I kind of went tangential. Did this make any sense?

        • Yeah, I don’t think he will either. But struggling to accept that.

          If you’re not familiar with it read about “partner buffering” which is suppose to help develop security. This is one article I found but there are others.

          https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://socialinteractionlab.psych.umn.edu/sites/socialinteractionlab.dl.umn.edu/files/2013/2013/Overall%252C%2520Simpson%252C%2520%2526%2520Struthers%2520%2528JPSP%252C%25202013%2529.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0kZLk9sTrAhU9WhUIHd7PCXA4ChAWMAJ6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw3NQMIMshgDAlTTdJzc0ly6

        • @Clio,

          It was an interesting article and consistent with other clinical literature I’ve read.

          As I read it, my mind wandered back to the pre-marriage counseling sessions my wife and I had with the Pastor who married us. The only thing I remember from it was how widely different my wife’s and my ideas of how much buying a new car would cost.

          Can you imagine what real pre-marriage counseling would look like?

          Counselor: “Our first step will to be to assess a few things like your attachment styles, family history, and previous romantic relationships. Please take this survey.
          After that, I want you both to take a few tests:

          1. Personality Assessment Inventory (PAI) (A psychologist I worked on a project with said it was better than the MMPI-II if accompanied by a semi-structured interview by someone who knew what they were doing.)

          2. Hare’s Psychopathology Checklist – Revised (PCL-R)

          3. MBTI

          When we get the results back, we can better identify what you two will really be bringing into this marriage. Be honest.”

  18. My antics with my LOs have been comparatively minor, mainly because I’ve never really had personal relationships with them. I’ve done sillier things to try to impress my normal non-LE crushes, like pretending to like bands and figuring stupid excuses to see them.

    My current LO and I would never talk or acknowledge each other, even that one time when we were at the office kitchen sink and she was leaning over top of me inches away to rummage through the cabinet while my arms were stretched out washing my hands like we were playing Office Twister. Not a single word from either of us. If she’s limerent for me and were on this site, that’s the example she would use on this post.

    The dumbest thing I did was minor, but I knew what I was doing and why I was doing it and I felt like a total fool doing it. After work one day I picked up my electric guitar from being fixed, and it was in its gig bag in the trunk of my car. Oh, I could have brought it into my house and gone to work, but I left it in the trunk of the car overnight. My plan was to sling the gig bag over my shoulder and coolly walk into the office, and have LO see me and think I was cool. If anybody asked I would say it was way too hot out to keep an instrument in a car, which was true.

    So why was this minor thing so stupid? Well, for starters I was 47 years old and concerned that a 24 year old would think a guy my age was cool. But the dumbest thing was that the chances LO would ACTUALLY SEE ME BEING COOL WERE ALMOST NIL. We didn’t directly work together. Her desk was on the other side of the floor. She teleworked half the time and I never really knew when she would be in. Even if she was in that day, I wasn’t going to carry the guitar around the office like an idiot so she would see me, I was going to leave it by my desk as my Mark of Shame. There was an impossibly short window of maybe three minutes for her to see me being cool as I walked from the garage into the building. The grand plan was destined to fail!

    But the craziest thing… she drove into the garage exactly at the time I was walking like a fool on the short sidewalk to the door. Out the corner of my eye I could see her head turn and look at me. I was flabbergasted at the timing. In the office she usually wouldn’t make any eye contact or display any emotion as she was around me, but this day I turned my head to see her looking at me with a smile on her face.

    I think she smiled at me because she thought I was a dumb fool… but in my limerence I like to think that maybe she smiled because she realized I might be a likeable guy.

    • Hey Matt,
      I don’t know why she smiled, but neither do you it seems.
      It’d be pretty harsh to think ‘dumb fool’ right? There’s a million reasons – but most decent people smile when an emotion is something positive, even if it’s just ‘That’s strange, I never imagined Matt played guitar.’

      I remember when a co-worker of mine told us he played Banjo in a band, it was so unexpected and I remember we all thought it funny, but in a warm sort of ‘Wow, didn’t imagine him playing banjo, or being in a band!’ People smile when their surprised I guess, too.

      • I’m harsh on myself because my first two LOs ended in nightmares of embarrassment. I was such a fool, missing the obvious signs of non-interest from them. I never wanted to make the same mistake again, so I just now assume that no woman I’m interested in would ever like me back. Of course, I’m married, so there was one who liked me back. But that’s why I never tried breaking the ice with the current LO as a friend, even though I knew it would never work – I was much older and married, and I didn’t want to be the creepy old guy.

        So honestly, I do think it was because LO saw me in a new light. I’m a recognized expert in my field and the office guru, and was always filled with technical information. She saw me mostly as I sat in the common area, away from my desk and distractions, concentrating intensely on a stack of papers and scribbling notes. It was just the extent of her reaction that surprised me, almost like she was happy to see that I had an approachable side.

        • We’ve all been there, Matt. I’m starting to realise how little it took to tip me into limerence when I was younger – a nice face, a pleasant personality, and a handful of sincere-sounding compliments which I didn’t ask for. That’s it, really. Fantasies galore. I’m not sure I even needed the so-called “potent eye contact” part.

          (Maybe my real weakness is getting compliments? Hahaha!)

    • Matt,
      There was a time when being a guitar player in a rock or other type of band was the ultimate in non-conformist cool. As a former pro and currently semi pro, not so much these days. I have a fairly senior position in a major corporation and let me tell you, past 15 minutes of fame are totally irrelevant those 24 to even 40+. Oh, I did pretend to like bands I hated in order to impress or maybe try to expand LO’s musical knowledge. HAHAHA fail!

      • lol I know, i know… it’s like I still live in the ’80s when it comes to guitar coolness. I thought I’d give it a shot because she’s a dancer and into music. However, on my way in that day I bumped into a young guy who told me he had just started playing. So I’ve been helping him out on things. Not a total loss, I guess.

    • Yep, totally relate. I sometimes play some gigs here and there. One Friday I had a show I was traveling to right after work so I brought my change of clothes with me. I had conveniently managed to tell LO all about it. Yeah I could have changed in the bathroom or at the gig or even in my truck but instead I changed in my office and made sure LO saw me as I was leaving so she knew I was a real rock and roll star. Lol, how pathetic.

  20. Another excerpt from “Best of LO #2:”

    When it came to gifts for the holidays, LO #2 beats out anyone I’ve known, even my wife. LO #2 busted her fanny to buy meaningful presents for birthdays and holidays.

    One year, she gave me me a seltzer maker something like this (https://contestimg.wish.com/api/webimage/5d4e93b738f7f22a5cba5e3e-large.jpg?cache_buster=4fb29b31f4f118506506bb293951f0b0) for my bar. One night she was over and asked how it worked. I told her I hadn’t tried it yet but there was no time like the present. I put it together and it seemed to work.

    We were standing in the kitchen. I looked at her, looked at the bottle, looked at her, looked at the bottle. She looked at me and said, “Don’t you dare.” Channeling my inner Three Stooges, I let her have it and had an impromptu wet t-shirt contest in the kitchen. She won! She shook her head and just said,
    “As-h-le.”

    But, she let me take off the wet t-shirt….

  21. I bought a second (high end) car I certainly couldn’t afford just so we’d have matching cars. Ironically, he’s never seen it because I’ve been ghosted since. The car reminded me for awhile I’ve gone insane. Not to mention, seeing it sitting idle in my driveway triggered me.

  22. I met LO#2 in my early twenties when I did a stop-gap door-to-door sales job after University. He was extremely funny and charming but I did not feel I could trust him. I seriously struggled with door-to-door sales – I was far too shy and sensitive, and was very uncomfortable the minor deceptions required to close sales on the day. I should have left that job after a few weeks. In the end I stayed for 1.5 years…..solely due to an an LO I did not trust and would therefore never disclose to!
    As a result of those 1.5 years, I developed a much thicker skin, a positive can-do attitude to life and the confidence to talk to anyone…..personal qualities that have made a huge positive difference to my life. I thank you LO#2!

    • He could be very charming and flirtatious. I watched his sales pitch several times a day for my first week on the job and he had the women (and the men weirdly) in every house eating out of his hand. And I felt the same! But I knew he was being disingenuous and that I had been sold to in exactly the same way his customers had been. But I was too young and in need of love to stop myself falling for him by the end of that first week.

  23. I signed up for a half marathon (and completed) despite having no prior running experience just to impress LO.

    I also learned she liked Waltz No. 2 by Dmitri Shostakovich. So I taught myself this on the piano over weeks with no plan as to how I would manufacture an opportunity to play this to her. She never found out.

    • A half marathon sounds like a cool goal, even if there’s no one to impress. How did you fare, not having had prior running experience? Was it the start of a new interest?

  24. I’ve just remembered the first time I got that famous “walking on air” feeling from LO#1. I gave her a small gift for Christmas (a notebook for recording quotes) and she got me something bigger and better (a calendar with fancy magnets relating to a special interest of mine). Because she gave me a slightly more expensive gift, my limerent brain read that as “reciprocation” and I felt really happy for weeks!

    Come to think of it, maybe this “innocent exchange of gifts” was the beginning of my horrible descent into limerent suffering? Never saw that curve ball coming!

    • This story reminds me of… I gave LO a book, a special one because it’s been out of print so a collector’s item, if you will. Sells for $300+ on Amazon marketplace but I bought it when it was just $20 some years ago. I gifted it to LO and a year later, he admitted he never had the time to read it. I broke my own heart with that gesture.

  25. “Best of LO #2:” Scharnhorst Buys A Dog

    In ’85, LO #2 and I attended a “rubber chicken” charity event. There was a Silent and regular auction. That year, they were auctioning off a 7/8 (they made a point of that) Black Labrador puppy. I was out of the Navy but was working for the Navy as a civilian. Dogs were ok but I didn’t want the responsibility of taking care of one.

    LO #2 convinced me to bid on the dog and run up the price. She said it was for charity and I only needed to put in one bid. One bid was all it took and I now had a puppy. I was not amused but it was my own fault. LO #2 said she’d come over on her days off and help house break it.

    He was an adorable little guy and I named him Gus after my dead grandfather. I had to leave him alone most of the day while I went to work and clean up after him when I got home. It wreaked havoc on my lifestyle. The plus side was LO #2 was spending more time at my place since she didn’t want a puppy who wasn’t housebroken in her apartment.

    I had trained Gus not to jump on the furniture and to not beg while I ate. He was a quick learner. True to her word, LO #2 spent a day off to help housebreak him. LO #2 had a cat at the time and brought it over. They got along great. It was like watching a Porsche being chased by a bus. I got home from work and went to change clothes. Gus followed me in and jumped on the bed. I asked LO #2 to come in and asked what that was all about. LO #2 said she took a nap and invited him up. Gus conveniently forgot about not begging the table, too. LO #2 looked at me and said, “What?!”

    I decided that Gus had to go. The happy ending is that a co-worker’s parents had recently put down their Black Lab and were looking for another one. I told him I was looking for a good home for Gus. My co-worker asked what I wanted for him. I sold Gus for the cost of the vet bills.

    When my co-worker came to get him, I packed up Gus’ stuff. Gus knew something was up and started to cry. I felt like crap. When I’d see my co-worker, I’d ask how Gus was doing. He said Gus was doing great. His parents loved him. My co-worker said Gus would disappear from the yard in the afternoon and reappear later. His parents watched him one day and when the school bus went by, Gus would flip the latch on the gate and meet the grandkids as they got off the bus and walk home with them. I could have never offered him that. They had Gus until he died. My co-worker said Gus was one of the best dogs his parents ever had.

    • Great story, Scharny.
      I gave my LO part of my company just before she copped to having a new boyfriend, who worked in the office next to mine.
      We’re all good work colleagues. But that was a tough but necessary pill to swallow.

      They’re still together, me & LO still work together well.

      So it all has sorted itself… Every week, I think about LO less and less, and I don’t really regret making her an owner. She *is* an excellent employee.

      • I once gave my first LO a flower and my second LO an box of candy.

        But giving an LO part of your company beats those by a mile.

  27. When you think of going to stream
    Imagining there to be seen
    a You tuber`s succes
    is a way to impress
    Your bed room now has a green screen.

  28. I can’t tell you how glad I am to have found these articles, they’re really helping me to understand what I’ve been going through.

    I’ve been having a LE for about 2 years now for a coworker. My job involved working with him occasionally to prepare {fig leaf applied by Dr L}. I found myself adjusting my route when walking around property, hoping to run into him. I found myself coming up with questions for him, just so I could go talk to him. One of the most stupid things I did was start smoking for a short time, because he did and it enabled me to run into him more in the smoking area. (Sad, I know. Because smoking = sexy, right? Wrong!)

    Eventually, I started coming to him to talk about personal things for advice, just to try to make some kind of connection. It got bad that just seeing his name pop up in my email sent shockwaves through my body.

    Fast forward to March of this year, my job was furloughed and eventually eliminated due to COVID-19. The last thing I said to him was something like, “Okay, bye, stay safe!” when passing in the hallway, never expecting that I wouldn’t be coming back.

    Fast forward to now (knowing now that my old job has been eliminated) I was going to take another position where I used to work, unrelated to anything I have experience in. I got through the whole application process and they were setting a start date when I had to back out partly because I realized I was being driven by my limerence. The job was:
    (1) Completely unrelated to anything I have experience in
    (2) A pretty significant demotion
    (3) Grave shift, opposite of when LO even works for the most part
    (4) Overall, just not feeling like the right move to me

    In the midst of all this, I ended up messaging him on LinkedIn to say the typical “I really enjoyed working with you” message. He ended up giving me his work and personal phone numbers (gasp!) saying to let him know if I ever need anything. Pretty standard message. But, you better believe my line rant mind went into overdrive with excitement.

    I ended up messaging him my phone number, pretty much trying to treat him like a normal friend with messages and calling him to talk about the aforementioned decision not to take the other job. The conversation ended up being about nothing but work stuff, like literally nothing more, ending with him saying something generic like, “Okay, well if you ever need me to help you out with finding a job, let me know.” The end.

    It ended up making me realize just how I’ve really been. These articles are helping me recognize the limerence for what it is and take the steps to get over it.

    Oh yeah, I’m happily married to a man who also works at the place LO works and I used to work. LO knows him, and it probably made him feel super awkward if he was ever felt any of the ~vibes~ I’m sure I was giving off. Double shame, double guilt for me.

    Okay, the end of the book I apparently decided to write for you. Thank you if you’ve read this far!

    • Cringeworthy footnote, about when I reached out to him yesterday, to ultimately have said phone convo.

      At first, I sent a text with some art I’ve been working on followed by the old, “Fml, wrong conversation, sorry (LO)!” Didn’t help that he replied saying it was cool as s***.

      Wow, Day 1 of NC is really getting to me, I feel so lame lol.

        • Oh my I think I just found my equal.
          Welcome Doublelime.
          You’ve come to the right place to vent your cringing stories.
          If you here and there read something about a canoe, that’s me I bought a canoe to impress LO.
          Which it didn’t. And now I have it in my bedroom.
          Along with a small you tube studio and 26 plants.
          Here you go..

        • Matt, glad to know I’m not the only one!

          Mia, thanks for the welcome! Really happy to read everyone else’s stories, I’ll look out for that canoe.

  29. I love this. Thank you everyone for sharing your stories.

    It feels like I have done a lot to try and impress an LO but one that popped into my head immediately while reading this is beer. I love craft beer but absolutely hated sour beers. Guess what? LO drinks almost exclusively sour beers. So of course I had to go on a journey to taste all sour beers I possibly could and find ones that I thought she would enjoy.

    I also watched all of Friends on Netflix so I would understand some of the references she used.

    And lastly, probably the biggest one, she sings and plays the guitar. So I took guitar lessons and learned to play. I spent months learning and recording two songs for her birthday only to have her lose the USB stick, never listen to them, and not tell me until I asked about it weeks later.

    • If you truly loved her, you’d learn to brew sours and name one after her.

      LO #4 said she liked Pilsners and Kolschs. I home brew and thought about brewing a Pilsner for her birthday but thought better of it. Nothing says love like thinking of borrowing your daughter’s dorm refer so you can lager a brew for your LO for 3 months.

      • I just had a bit of an epiphany yesterday, Scharnhorst. Like you, I am a huge craft beer enthusiast. I travel quite a bit across the country for work, and when I do, I always like to visit one or two craft breweries. Well there’s one I particularly like in another part of the country. Their beer is fantastic, and I remember once being served by a particularly lovely lady when I was in there (I haven’t been there in over a year).

        How is this relevant, you may ask? Well, I always had a feeling that I had met my LO before. I thought she may have worked in a sandwich shop that I used to frequent in her town. It may or may not have been her. However, I just realized one thing yesterday when I was browsing that craft brewery’s Facebook page: That lady who served me is my LO’s absolute doppelganger! That may actually be where I thought I had met my LO previously. After doing some digging around, it turns out my LO’s doppelganger is actually the owner of the brewery! Talk about the girl of my dreams, eh? Someone who owns a craft brewery and looks just like my LO!

      • Surprisingly that thought never crossed my mind but it’s genius.

        Crazier things have been more serious thoughts than I’d like to admit. For instance, she loves Italy, so I looked at buying property there that she could stay at on vacation.

  30. “Best of LO #1:” Scharnhorst Learns A Lesson

    So, after we reached a meeting of the minds about LO #1 cheating on her BF with me, things settled down. The last two months of college were my best ever. We looked like a normal couple even though we both knew it was ending when I graduated.

    One day we were walking across campus. I got distracted by two girls I knew walking the other way. The next thing I knew, WHAM!. I staggered back, stars swimming around my head. LO #1 had steered me into the side of a dumpster.

    She had this grin on her face and said, “That’ll teach you to keep your eyes to yourself when you’re with a woman.”

    • That’s interesting. When I’m with a LO I notice literally no one else. She becomes my entire worldview and no one else exist. Wonder how common it is to have zero wandering interests.

      • I didn’t see it that way but it was a little over the top.

        When the therapist read my history of my relationship with LO #2, she said it was an abusive relationship. I told her I could be difficult but I didn’t realize I was abusive.

        The therapist said she wasn’t talking about me. She said LO #2 was “Passive-Aggressive, manipulative, and triangulating.” The therapist said I was lucky she didn’t marry me.

        “Your life could have been so much worse.”

  31. @Sharn… there’s no reply button for your comment so this is out of chronological order but about the Dissmissive Avoidants: I am fascinated and have been reseraching attachment styles for months. Did what you said make sense, you asked? I suppose to. Any new intel is helpful but I still can’t peg my LO accurately. The arm chair psychologist in me has gone in so many different directions with assessments of what makes my LO tick. He’s incredibly elusive but weirdly transparent at the same time, but only about things he actually chooses to share. He told me his mother is a hoarder and has mental health issues. Super private stuff, imo. But he’s the least eloquent person I know when it comes to describing his own feelings and his mindset with romantic relationships. Perhaps that’s why he’s a middle aged man who never married, had children or any substantial experience with real adult relationships? Sure, there were girlfriends but no real (social media) evidence of such. He’s an engineer and very nerdy at that so I quickly jumped into the “must be on the spectrum” theory to explain his aloofness. Then I’ve discovered the Dissmissive avoidant theory and that resonates too when I think about my dealings with LO. Quick disclaimer, we’re both single, had a physical relationship which was fairly undefined and just when I started to get comfortable with him, he pulled away quickly and did the whole deactivating thing dissmissives do. Then I was demoted to a special friend. All of a sudden, we went from speaking almost daily to every few months and of course, I was emotionally attached by then. The more I wanted to spend time with him, the more he withdrew citing work stuff. If that’s not a mindfuck, I don’t know what is. Either way, that’s how Limerance grew for me over the course of a year. I had someone show me a glimpse of potential and possibilities, and then poof, we’re just friends.
    I question every day if this self imposed torture of NC is a good idea because it’s been killing me mentally.

    We’re still both single.

    • Does he still have regular contact with his mother? He could be pretty enmeshed with her and that’s not a good thing.

      Stay with the facts. Anything you can record or verify is a fact. He said or did it. Why they say or do anything or what it means are presumption and speculation. Those last two will drive you crazy.

      I remember when I got demoted from Boyfriend to Best Friend. She still expected the 24/7/365 Deluxe Boyfriend Support Package but was willing to pay for it. There was nothing for me in being her Best Friend.

      Time to play a game. What’s the “Fairy-Tale-Ending” to this? If you could craft any outcome you want, what would it be? Then, compare that to the Facts and see how far apart you are. Do you really envision a life with this guy? Is he the one you want to come home to at night, wake up next to in the morning, and grow old with?

      If he’s enmeshed with his mother, at his age, it will take an Act of God to break. You’re not his therapist. If he’s happy the way he is, it’s his life. You can accept what he offers or don’t accept it. If you’re important to him, he’ll make an effort to accommodate your desires and needs. If you’re not, he won’t. He may keep you around until you become more trouble than your perceived worth.

      You can make a second career out of trying to figure them out. We can put a lot of effort into thinking that if we “do enough of the right things,” good results will eventually materialize. They usually don’t. But, the questions of “what if I did something else?” or “what if I’d held out a little longer?” can haunt you a long time.

      Only about 9% of an iceberg is visible above the surface and it isn’t what you see that sinks you.

      • @Shar… facts or so he admits to: he speaks to mother dear 2x a week on the phone and makes a few hours long drive to see her about once every couple of months. He’s not into committed relationships but looking for the one. He’s dismissive about serious romantic relationships but obviously fully committed to his mother. Oedipus vibes. Yikes. I’ll think about your other questions soon. They’re worth exploring. I just want to know why I wasn’t good enough for him. Most men seem to think I’m a fn catch just not him. We get along so great and the chemistry is there so for fuck’s sake, why?

        • “Perhaps the most tragic part of this issue, is that core-wounded individuals unwittingly seek lovers who are no more equipped to respond to their needs, than their unavailable parent was! They continue to embrace the notion that they’ll one day find someone who excites them, and whom they can train or teach to love them in ways they’ve always wanted–but this is a child’s fantasy that will never be realized. Still, if these inexhaustible efforts should yield even marginal success, they could feel encouraged to remain, and continue striving for that which cannot be gratified.” – Shari Schreiber https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/

          This is a great article. It talks about the context of “caregivers” but I recommend it. I learned a lot from reading her stuff. I gave “HAVEN’T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple” to the therapist and told her we would make that the topic of the next session. And, we did. I’m not a caregiver but LOs 2-4 are.

  32. I’ve done many cringe worthy things including sending my friend to a local courthouse to observe LO during a hearing he was at for a very minor issue. He was the plaintiff. He’s never met her so there was no suspicion why she was there and it was a public place with others around anyway. The whole point of the exercise was for her to “get a read” on him albeit from a distance. I am taking this one to my grave!

    • AS…

      “get a read” on him in the natural, everyday, completely normal surroundings of a court case!
      😀

      • Well, we found out how he is under pressure, lol
        She really just wanted to “meet” him. Ugh, what a cringery

  33. Hmmmm. Ok this is probably another.

    So last gay pride in London I was at a nightclub with some friends. Obviously the town is full of gays on that weekend and the clubs really ramp up entry fees. So I’m at this one place… with mates but I know LO is at another club (I just do, it’s his favourite club…) which if I run I can get to from where I am in about 10 minutes.

    So I head ‘off to the bar’ walk out of my venue and pelt it down the road to this other place, queuing…. pay £15 just to get in (normally it’s £6…) and start looking around. This recent LO is really tall – easy to spot in a crowd… no sign. Out into the beer garden… there he is! WITH A DATE.

    (Did I mention I was failing at NC#2 at this point? Classy).

    So now I’m really embarrassed. Heart racing, hiding in a doorway peeping. Pluck up courage and walk past… ‘Thomas!’
    ‘Oh. Hi didn’t see you there… etc.’
    ‘Where were you going?’ I now realise I was walking defiantly straight at a wall…
    ‘Just to enjoy my drink in peace!’ (Brandishing tatty water bottle).

    I turn to LOs date. I’m obsessed with LOs height. I’m 6 ft and he’s a lot taller than I am. His date is at most half an inch shorter than me.

    Out of the blue: ‘how tall are you?’
    ‘About 6 ft.’
    ‘Really, you seem shorter… maybe it’s being stood next to … that makes you seem short.’
    LO and date are not charmed by my company. Clearly and suddenly I’m really sheepish…

    ‘Anyway I’m leaving.’ I declare and flounce off. Then once out of sight, back out of the club, run off down the road back into the original club (had a ticket!) And back to my group of friends claiming no luck at the bar because its rammed in there.

    At the time this happened I was a 41 year old adult. My LO was 28, his date probably 23/24.

    Gay pride – literally.

    • @Thomas, this is benign, my friend. I see myself doing something similar, gay club or not. Hey, I sent my friend to a courthouse after all. What a great sport she is.

    • I once was limerent for a DJ in a club I knew vaguely, we kissed 1 time 10 years ago, after we talked again one night I bought pink letter paper (!) wrote my phone number down and delivered it to the club. ( Omg).
      When he did not call me, I showed up at his club the next week, completely drunk.
      Practically kiss raped him, threw myself at him, and told him I would come to his house that week.
      After I left the club I kind of imagined I might have been a little pushy so I thought I would not text him for a few days, to take my phone 1 minute later and text ” I will ring your doorbell naked under a fur coat ”
      (!!!)
      And than ” oh am an animal activist so it will be an fake fur coat if you don’t mind ” (!)
      The next morning I woke up with a massive hangover and saw what I texted. Surprisingly I did not hear from him. 😄
      That was not really the end of the lowest story in my life it all ended with me screaming at him in a club two weeks after. I was 38
      So @ Thomas eat your heart out 😄

    • @Thomas. That conversation definitely sounded awkward. Are we obliged to talk to current/former LOs if we bump into them in public? Even if they have a date? In this situation, it sounds like you were required to say a few words but weren’t really prepared…

      Almost walking into walls is always a great way to assure people your life is going great and you have no problems. Nope, no problems whatsoever. Excuse me now. Have another wall to walk into. Haha! Love studying the paint up close. Do grown-ups still act like this? Yup. For sure. You could have gotten away with it too (hiding/running off) if recent LO didn’t see you and address you by name.

  34. Hi, Dr. L and Everyone!
    I’m Denise and just “ended” a 5 year LE, which maybe I’ll be brave enough to share about soon. (Not the only LO, but the BIGGEST!)
    But, this is an awesome place to start, I think.
    Two tattoos.
    The first, in 2016. When I thought there may be still a “chance” at a relationship, although he had “dumped” me for “sparks” with someone else. After the dumping and my first trip to the UK, I got a tattoo on my left wrist which says, “Book Girl.” I’m a Librarian, that’s what LO decided to call me when we briefly “dated”, and I thought I was “reclaiming” myself by getting that tattoo (I DO love it!). (Sorry, but I use quotations – and parentheses – a lot!!!)
    One thing LO and I also both love is old movies, especially Humphrey Bogart movies. So (even during the COVID crisis), as I knew things were “flagging,” as it were, I got a tattoo of a falcon head with “The stuff that dreams are made of.” (I do LOVE The Maltese Falcon! I am also a Shakespeare junkie and that is a “misquote” from “The Tempest.”). And the font – a font with HIS (LO’s)name attached to it (which he does NOT know about). At least it’s a good font, and a beautiful tattoo!
    At least I got those!!!! 🙂

    • Hi Denise, and welcome. Tattoos are a permanent reminder, but in some ways that’s good.

      If limerence is anything, it’s a life changing experience. So, even if it doesn’t end well, having the memory “marked” is an acknowledgement of what you went through and (hopefully) learned about yourself…

  35. Mia’s story encouraged me (as well as being hilarious).

    I once emailed my LO and asked her outright, ‘Will you marry me?’ (kind of funny cuz I am married – and with about a one in zillion chance of success)

    When she didn’t respond, I wrote back, ‘See what I mean?’

    Of course, I thought it was all very meaningful at the time, but looking back I must admit, even I do not know what my point was. Limerence mind-f&%+

  36. Yesterday I went 10 miles out of my way to fill my car at the gas station that’s next to LO’s apartment building. She’s posted pictures out of her apartment window, which has the top of a telephone pole five feet away so it’s easy to know which apartment is hers. As I looked up at her window (she was out of town anyway), I felt… not much. It was like this little dose of reality had tempered the fantasy in my head.

  37. I have a hilarious new little light relief !
    Didn’t realize how insanely crazy it was till I told my sis tonight and she just stared at me.
    In recent contact LO told me that there was stress lately because of conflict with his mother.
    I seriously suggested I could help with that since I give system therapy.
    LO replied ” I consider but wouldn’t that be weird of you will be my therapist ?”
    And I replied ” no of course not why would it be weird!?” …
    ME BEING LOS THERAPIST.!
    I’m laughing so hard now by the f*** upness of that I have no words for it.

  38. Best of LO #1: Scharnhorst Gets a Better Offer

    When I was in college, I played Dungeons & Dragons. One of the guys in the group knew Gary Gygax personally. The Saturday session usually went from noon until well into the morning. More than once we watched the sun come up from IHOP.

    LO #1 was a local. Her parents lived about 30 miles from school and she’d frequently go home on weekends. One weekend she said she was heading home for the weekend. OK…

    Saturday evening, 8-10 of some of the geekiest, late-adolescent, males, me included, are sitting around the DM. I was the only Mage in the group. We were on our way to wherever when LO #1, all 5′-8″ Tall Skinny Blonde’s worth of her in shorts and a halter top, saunters into the room. You could hear a pin drop.

    I asked what she was doing here. She said she got bored at home and decided to come back early. She said we should go have a drink. I told her we’d just started the adventure, that I was the only mage, and asked if she could come back in an hour. I was only half-joking, women make up 51% of the population but a good D&D game is hard to find.

    She walked over to me. She leaned over and stuck her face about an inch from mine and said, “I’ll make it worth your while.” Without missing a beat, the DM said, “Scharnhorst awakes to find himself back at the inn.”

    We left and she made good.

  39. Okay, folks, it’s time to make fun of Matt. I did something a little flirtatious and completely inline with this stupid fantasy in my head. But it was harmless.

    LO posted a picture of herself on Instagram. She looked demur. She looked intellectual. She looked hot.

    I couldn’t help myself, so I posted a comment on the picture from a fake account. I told LO she’s really pretty. She responded “thanks” with a smiley face.

    There was no way she knew it was me. But what if she knew it was me? I haven’t seen her in a year. She would think I was some crazy stalker guy and not just a grown man twice his age with a stupid schoolboy crush.

    Anyway, I feel like I just escaped after robbing a bank.

    • Honestly, I don’t think it will come to much. Saying to someone that they’re pretty in a type of post made to garner those type of comments it’s not make them think that they’re dealing with a crazy stalker. However, if you started making those comments in every post, well….

      My last LO didn’t have an Instagram account (yes, I searched, why do you ask?), which all in all is pretty lucky on my part, despite my limerent brain desperately wanting to have a window to LO’s life and a source of distant hits. Completetely get you on the “feeling like after robbing a bank” part: that feeling of doing something crazy and seemingly getting away with it’s very addictive.

      • Nothing will come of it… she doesn’t know it was me and I’m not planning on making it a habit. It was just this crazy little rush I had in the moment. Because I am an idiot.

  40. Regrettably, for some reason known only to the internet Gods, this thread appears to be like honey for spam bot comments.

    No idea why, or why the usual filters aren’t catching them, but I’m tired on playing whack-a-mole with them, so I’m going to turn off future comments.