Busy times in the Dr L household, and a good reminder of the need for discipline and focus when managing too many projects at once.
Here’s a good (if brief) talk that touches on a concept that can be useful when it comes to resisting the temptation to prioritise short-term pleasure over long-term happiness.
I sometimes have to use a “Ulysses contract” when pressured for time. It always seems like a bit of a last resort, and something of a failure of will, but I think there is an important lesson:
The outcome is what matters, not how elegantly or effortlessly you achieve it.
I mean, it’s nice if you can just ace your way through everything, I guess, but sometimes you need to organise your environment to protect yourself against temptation.
This is true for limerence temptation too. Be like the students studying for finals, and get someone to change your Facebook password when you are really struggling. In a moment of clarity, send your future self some emotional and moral support by saving them from yourself.
It may be a desperate measure, but it beats losing more ground and slipping further from freedom.
This kind of measure is most useful when you are most stressed. I’ve noticed in myself that the desire to escape into passive entertainment becomes increasingly urgent the more deadlines I have. If all the projects in front of me seem impossibly daunting, my brain kind of stalls and rebels, and says “there’s probably some great stuff on twitter”. It’s distraction as mood repair, but it always ends up causing trouble rather than solving it.
Those are the times I know I need to admit weakness and make a Ulysses contract.
OK. Time to turn of YouTube and get back to work!
This is exactly what I need at the moment. Work is ridiculously busy (although my boss now recognizes that my workload is unrealistic, and at least a little bit of help is on the way). Limerence and frankly this site are huge distractions. I love this site, Dr. L’s content and this community (both the public blog and the private forum), but it can be a real time suck for me. Facebook is an issue too, but I think limerent rumination and this site are bigger time wasters than anything (particularly during work hours because thinking about my LOs is more pleasant than work, which has become incredibly dissatisfying). I have commented on this in the past, but I think coming on here too often can even end up reinforcing limerent thoughts and behaviours. What is meant as help and support sometimes ends up reinforcing the very problem most of us are trying to eradicate (possibly because it makes us think about our LOs, which is deeply satisfying in a way, but painful at the same time).
I have no wish to stop coming on here because this is such a great community, but at the same time, I do need to limit my activity on this site. I need to set myself some reasonable limits for visiting LwL and some deadlines for important deliverables at work. I truly hate my job by now, and I desperately want out, but I cannot even think about leaving for another job or changing careers until I dig myself out of the massive pile of work that has accumulated. I simply cannot leave a mess for someone else, and I am really worried my workload and unfinished projects will come back to haunt me. Purposeful living and being a little tougher on myself (while also being kind and reasonable and maintaining a commitment to self-care and work/life balance) will help me get the life I really want. Sometimes I even remind myself what a strong, hard-working and successful woman my LO is, and how she wouldn’t be impressed if she knew what a slacker I am at times. I believe that can help motivate me at times as well. Why not use limerence as a motivator when we can?
Yeah, I am finding the same thing with this site VL, it can become the very opposite of purposeful life – just another form of escapism from reality. I do really like those occasional moments of connection with people on this site but more often than not these days, I am finding it triggers me to dwell more in limerent reverie and rumination. I have realised that my usual LE-reducing practices have fallen by the wayside of late and it is now starting to cause me a degree of emotional pain. Time to make a contract with my future self I think!
This place is kind of like methadone.
Better than heroin but you’re still an addict.
The site serves different purposes at different times, I think, but this insight is probably the best way of recognising that you’ve gone a bit wrong (if your goal is recovery and freedom).
Early on, the benefits of the site are learning and community. After a while, I think it is useful for limerence deprogramming to read through some of the posts to strengthen your resolve and reinforce the recovery mindset. But, ultimately, if the lesson of purposeful living is absorbed fully, people will naturally drift away.
But from my own perspective, it’s nice when old friends come back to visit 🙂
I firmly believe this site and this community (both the public blog and the private forum) have helped me a great deal, but I think I have lost the focus on recovery. It is time to get back to that recovery mindset. It was easier to focus on the recovery aspect with LO #1 because she was basically a stranger. She gave me no validation, and she was no longer in my life after only a month. It was all just a fantasy, and it was incredibly sad, hopeless and bleak. For sure I wanted those feelings to go away because they would never bring me more pleasure than pain. Unfortunately I experienced transference (to LO #2) before I ever experienced true recovery from limerence for LO #1.
But LO #2 is different. She is a friend (and honestly a very good friend by now), she has given me some validation in the way of mild flirting and I know she at least enjoys my company and likes spending time with me. We have had some pretty deep and meaningful conversations with each other. I have spent time with this woman one-on-one and I have been to her house several times. We drive each other to nights out and check with each other before committing to nights out with our other friends. She is single and we could theoretically be together some day. I have also made up my mind that I want to end my marriage. So, the fact is that her and I being together at some point isn’t entirely beyond the realm of possibility, despite the fact I’m probably not her type and I would probably remain in the friendzone forever. I know she can be and is attracted to men outside her usual type at times.
But she is actively dating, and I honestly don’t think she would ever think of me as a potential romantic interest. She will probably meet someone and get serious about that person in the relatively near future. And I’m married and won’t physically cheat on my wife, no matter how bad things get, unless and until our marriage is formally over (and probably not for at least a few months after a formal separation). I still haven’t found a way out of my marriage financially or logistically. Meanwhile, I feel like I am falling in love with LO #2, while she continues to date other men and kind of rub my nose in it (I am still not sure if she wants to make me jealous or if she just thinks of me as being like her gay best friend). I really don’t want to go no contact because that would have a really detrimental impact on my social life and would cause problems with my other friends as well. But I do need to return to purposeful living, limit my time on this site, focus on my job and career, figure out what I am going to do about my marriage and remember there are other fish in the sea. I should at least focus on going a little lower in my contact with this woman and learn to deal with the jealousy and tell myself that I am not available to her anyway. I possibly also need to expand my circle of friends beyond the group LO #2 belongs to. Maybe I might go no contact eventually, but I’m not quite there yet (despite having considered it several times).
I feel my time spent on LwL was time well spent, and ever so necessary.
I found as I healed I needed the site less and less but instead of it being a crutch on my journey it was a vehicle to help me stay on track when I wobbled. Training wheels, if you will.
I love this site and I find that implementing the suggestions has been the catalyst to help me succeed and to move on from the LE and simultaneously keep my guard up against future LE’s and also to stop the tendency to be wistful about the past ones.
I did the work, have tried hard to control my thoughts and focus on purposeful living (thanks Dr. L). The site has been invaluable in my recovery and I will always check back and see if I can offer support.
Now….it did take a long time for the therapeutic of LwL to have a real effect and at first I was just knowledge gathering, but when I took the emergency deprogramming course and applied the lessons, it was a game changer. A life changer.
I am a serial limerent no more! This is the longest I have been without a LE!
The locus of control is within me. This site helped me find it.
Jaideux,
“I found as I healed I needed the site less”
I think that is the test to know if you have recovered. Or if you don’t (sorry, Dr. L) need the site at all. No more rumination over people who were either never going to be able to show up in the way we needed them to or were never a big part of our lives to begin with. That is the goal. .
Thanks, Jaideux. It means a lot to hear this.
Thanks too for stopping in from time to time with words of encouragement, to pay the benefit forward to others.
Dear all,
Quite apt this chain of posts. I discovered this website about 1 year ago and sent in a couple of comments last year. Since then, I occasionally check up on updates, about 1 a month or less . I have been surprised for some time , that 5 or 6 contributors make 90 % of the content and comments. It did cross my mind, that given the significant investment into the blog by some of you , that one type dependency might have been replaced by another one i.e. Limerent dependency , with a sort of dependency on a website, endlessly discussing the same issues, rather than pushing adead and welcoming new topics, and experiences and living purposefully.
I hope that my comment, does not upset anyone. That is ot the intention, but rather to point out that Dr Limerence has made a valid remark regarding potential addictions to social media or Internet trawling as a whole.
I wish a great holiday season to all of you
French Lady,
“that one type dependency might have been replaced by another one i.e. Limerent dependency , with a sort of dependency on a website, endlessly discussing the same issues, rather than pushing ahead and welcoming new topics, and experiences and living purposefully.”
Totally fair comment. It’s either this site … or I go face forward in the brownie pan. 🙂 Also, I work from home and my job is mind-numbingly boring. This site give me something to engage in other than bull***t, corporate gobbledygook. Or co-workers who want to discuss what they are cooking for dinner. I had a co-worker who was bawdy and inappropriate and funny. She left … so it’s just the earnest, gung-ho types left.
Dear Marcia et all,
I also a homework a lot since the pandemic started. This has had an impact on me and has led me into rethinking my priorities .
My life before Covid was quite” purposeful ” , lots of work, looking after my adolescent son, sports, social life etc.. However, I felt strangely dissatisfied with what seemed quite a humdrum existence.
After the first confinement , I met, on a dating site, this great guy and fell for him passionately . Can being locked up lead to Limerence?
We have a mainly sms relationship with a few real life encounters. As we only rarely meet this keeps the idealisation and fantasy alive. Writing can be very exciting and even via sms you an feel close to someone 😉I am certain that , we were or are both limerent , I much more than he .
From my perspective being locked in for a big portion of our lives, has exacerbated the need for excitement. Living purposely is all well and good, but can be quite boring 😴. Put a layer of covid on top and there you go.
When looking around, most of my friends marriages are either on the rocks or they are divorced. Usually, nothing wrong with the spouses , just no fun after 50… and feel that life is slipping them by.
I am glad to have felt this strong passion. It and covid has given me the push to go back to studying and to try to retire from corporate life .
I fully empathise with you, a job , can be soul destroying, full of meaningless tasks and injunctions and I won’t go down the route of what I really think of most of my colleagues.🤣. Corporate culture today fosters bul….it jobs with little meaning. In this context Limerence can save us from dying of boredom.
Enjoy the site…if it can somewhat compensate for the current situation..
A great day to all from not so sunny Paris
Maybe it’s another manifestation of the Pareto Principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
20% of the people make 80% of the comments.
DrL could verify that but it would take work.
I haven’t canceled any tee times or missed any oboe lessons because of LwL.
Eventually, I expect to drift off but I haven’t yet. My focus has definitely changed. What I think will really help is when I’m no longer tethered to a computer and coming to LwL takes work. Right now, it’s too easy to just click in.
Hello French Lady,
I just joined livingwithlimerence.com after reading the book Living with Limerence by Dr L. You are spot on about becoming or getting dependent to blogging on this site (or any social media). I think I’ve always been prone toward being a limerent, probably since I was a teenager. Now at 70, I need to get over it – it’s time. So I haven’t put out any information about myself because I think it would be easy to get addicted to constantly talking about the long ago relationship with the LO.
I have done a few things as a start to stop the obsessing. I haven’t gone as far as writing a Ulysses Contract with myself, but I have started working out regularly and I have changed my diet so that I am healthier (7 months now). I have joined a few organizations that are made up of baby boomers and plan to attend some of their events. I think every time I comment on someone’s blog, I will only do so if I have actually done something new and interesting to distract myself from this ‘mindless regurgitation’. In the wonderful words of T.D. Jakes ‘Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left.’.
What a waste of my mental time and brain space for so many years. To anyone that reads this, please don’t waste your precious years.
This site is perfect for a quick refresh
I stopped doing social media since 2016 (coincidence?)
I cannot express how much my purpose in life is switched to that which I actually do from that which I show that I do
For artists social media is helpful ok but for those of us who want be emotionally authentic it’s a waste of misguided attempting to Guage empathy while the competitive artists are TOTALLY ADDICTED AND TRANSFIXED to their phones watching the LIKES go up like an altimeter forgetting that if one more person LIKES your stuff at no point has your quality improved.
As Instagram broke i was being told to join.
I’d be at meetings with other artists and YOU WILL BE EMBARRASSED to know how attached they are to all your likes now that the means to the mass production of propaganda has been democratized
In a kinda smug way I had to ask myself if I am the only artist in the room? One not totally hooked on approval.
Sites like this brew a hard core of those invested
We gotta be grateful to their groundwork
I came here because i had a GLIMMER occur last week for the first time in ten years and had me examining all the factors. I remembered the idea of limerence and here I am with you guys
I might be a low flyer on this radar coz my limerence never lasts too long and they are always for totally inappropriate people and I slide into a “all objections aside–what conditions would be required for this To be a suitable match?”
Once I’ve narrowed it down to the Desert Island last pair on earth that’s when i can take her into MY OTHER WORLDS created purposely for wayfaring through idealist outcomes…
I found myself EUPHORIC over a quite random encounter with a young lady who praised my hat. I know it is a sincere compliment because It gets lots of favoritism and most who comment don’t stop me in my tracks and after ten years of owning it I ought to be OK by now…
So I came here.
In two evenings of listening to the extreme scenarios that remind me so much of my own path… and the advice and comments–i feel you guys have PULLED ME OUT OF A CURVE and so if it meant a few of you putting more time here than you think it worth well that’s ok… as a writer myself I gotta say
Nothing here is unnecessary comment
Cheers to all the lims and those in waiting to pop outa nowhere
For clarity sake– it looks like I am bunching in this page with that of instagram and social media. I am not. Just the screen time guilt trip is similar
My recent LE was ten days ago. What got me here was how I remembered the last one took 2 months to even ease down a notch
I can’t afford a two month skylark right now. Reasons reasons etc. I have an intellectual understanding of prison yet still end up there.
I am more help to the world on the outside. You have all helped me stay CLEAR and CLEAN.
A mantra I believe in is
Let them be
And yet it’s so hard
For now i leave and let you be!
Reading this post, I now realize one thing I did after my toxic LE (but not my feelings) ended has been kind of a Ulysses contract: I told my parents and my best friend about things that were very embarrassing red flags about how LO behaved and treated me. I had never shared those details with them before, because I kept making excuses for LO. Now that they know, they would never be OK with me reentering that relationship, and I know they would hold my feet to the fire if I ever intended it. Opening yourself up to being held accountable by people who love you and care about you can be a great way to do a Ulysses contract.
This talk really makes a good case for NC doesn’t it.
I am having a minor low this weekend which for a limerent like me, equates to a useful moment of lucidity. I find the whole idea of NC terrifying and depressing in equal measures, but I do wonder if, at some point, I will have to do it in order to move past this. Maybe my Ulysses contract should be to set a time limit for myself… if I am not past this, then time to change job/project.
I wonder how many limerents on this site have successfully recovered from an LE for a truly good LO without NC or transference?
Hi Allie,
I am a recovered limerent and I have to say the ONLY way out for me was NC. I just yesterday was looking through old pix on my phone to make room and was scrolling through the years and was forced to look at screenshots of text conversations I had with LE that were supposed to be reality checks when I was attempting LC. He was not very nice and basically accusing me of being a bad friend who was letting my emotions ruin our friendship. What a jerk!! I never thought about that convo when I was slipping into reverie. And I allowed myself to be sucked back in to the LE over and over. It wasn’t until he unexpectedly revealed that he was in a committed relationship that I went NC and while it was excruciating (he still wanted to be friends but I finally found the strength and self respect to stay NC) but I can honestly say that as time goes by and the residue from the LE slowly washes away, I may actually be more content and have more self respect and inner peace than I have had in my life. I am free!
NC is the way to go!!!! It hurts so much at first but the rewards are unparalleled!
Allie,
“I wonder how many limerents on this site have successfully recovered from an LE for a truly good LO without NC or transference?”
I would say I recovered from my second to last LO by transference to my current LO. I am over all past LOs, with the exception of the current one, and the LE is about 80% gone. I agree with Jaideux. NC was the way to go. Now, two LOs ago, it was a combination of NC and … drumroll for Dr. L …. purposeful living. I actually think it was more about purposeful living. I had just graduated from graduate school and then moved all the way across the country to start a new life and new career. I was very hopeful for the future, and the LE ended very quickly. Almost overnight. I think my current LE has lingered for so long because I am very bored at work (have been for years) and find a lot of the other relationships in my life rather shallow. The less I have going on in my life, the longer the LE is. Now, that being said, none of my LOs have been good. I’m not like you. I don’t pick out the nice guys. 🙂
Hey Allie,
NC Has been necessary for me nearly every time. I had one exception where LO was devastatingly frank (but he had to take the initiative on that). In that case I retreated, licked wounds, found a new LO and became friends with the ex LO. Which I think is one of the weird things about serial limerence.
You (sorry, I) find myself performing the same behaviour with new people. Obviously with tweaks.
Anyway. My point is the most recent LO, (which is the one I referred to above) completely ghosted me, I mean blocked, amputated, disconnected me from him a year and a bit ago. Of course it was really hard, but it has improved. I still have wobbles (somedays it seems everybody looks a bit like him one way or another which bugs the shit out of me).
But it’s SO much better. Again, fortunately the NC decision was taken out of my hands. But without NC I can’t imagine an LE resolving easily.
But I’d be interested to hear about successful low contact experiences.
One thing I do sometimes, which is related to this Ulysses Contract idea, is to just visualize my future self. In six months (for example) do I want to look at myself from a distance and see someone really productive and smart who has done creative and useful things? Or just a wistful drifter with nothing to show for herself?
It’s also the case that externalizing my view of myself can help me do things that are objectively “better” uses of time than just typing into a computer or cell phone. Like, what if my LO wondered what I was up to? Not so attractive if he knew I was simply looking at Instagram and reading this website all day. More exciting if I’m creative and doing something interesting. That’s a little bit cheap, since it makes the LE itself into a kind of fuel for good work, but at least the result is good even if the means aren’t elegant (as Dr L says above).
Q: What did Eaglemen not address?
A: The people you depend on for success do what they’re supposed to. Let’s say that Ulysses men decided they wanted to hear the Sirens and took the wax out of their ears. Ulysses would have died lashed to the mast. What would happen if the students holding on to the passwords gave them up or didn’t secure them?
To pull off some Ulysses’ contracts, you need the help of others and if they don’t perform, neither do you.
So my LO is family – there is very little of hope of NC being permanent. ( I have just began a month -long NC . She loves/is into me very much as well and would not agree to more than one month).
How do I go about this? Especially when has a lot of feelings for me as well and would never agree to me breaking contact with her for life? (Only not nearly as disruptive).
We will come across each other in Feb (when i visit my home country)..and will most likely be physical….
is there a way to securely extinguish the flames? while staying in touch?
Both of us are married but also captivated by this “secret” magical relation.
Except she is able to lead her daily life comfortably – I am not….we used to meet once every few months. I was only interested sexually in her then.
Now, after the death of a very close loved one, I became very much attached to her.
Well, it only “goes physical” if you want it to. Emotional Affairs are bad, Physical Affairs are usually considered worse. But, betrayal is in the eyes of the betrayed.
There is no “magic bullet” to “securely extinguish the flames.”
Sometimes, you do the right thing only because it’s the right thing, even if its a sacrifice [ Noble]. Sometimes, you do the right thing because you don’t want the consequences of getting caught [Smart]. Sometimes, you do the wrong thing and get away with it [Lucky}. Sometimes, you do the wrong thing and get caught [Stupid]. Done correctly, nobody will ever know which one motivated you.
So, are you going to practice restraint, or not? Do you want to do the right thing, or not? What are the consequences of getting caught? Are you willing to accept those consequences, or not? You said she’s family. How would getting caught play out on holidays?
Are you good enough to pull off an affair, or not? Is she good enough to pull off an affair, or not? Guilt can be a real bitch to keep in the bottle and both of you have to keep this secret. Ethics are one thing, capability is something else entirely.
Some people can pull off this kind of relationship whether it goes physical or not, some can’t.
If you can’t go No Contact, try Low Contact. If you search the site for it this comes up https://livingwithlimerence.com/?s=low+contact There are techniques that can help but you have to possess the will to do them. It’s hard, especially when you can’t avoid them and they’re basically nice people.
I read somewhere that heresy isn’t so much an error of the mind as it is an error of the will. Infidelity is kind of like that. It’s not like you don’t already know the right answer.
There are many credible explanations for infidelity but I’ve never heard a valid excuse for infidelity. But, we all make our choices.
such a beautiful…and dare i say… practical reponse!
I don’t necessarily believe in precedents but….is it possible to even wilfully walk out of limerence when a lot of it is being reciprocated? When the person does LOVE you..and desires..even if they aren’t limerent for you?
I mean what is the practical way out? Other than waiting for a flare-up?
Surely if they can love me in a healthy way..while being in marriage (if being unethical can be called health).. surely it must be possible for me as well?
Can limerence be de-programmed reliably by delaying gratification..or summoning a higher sense of meaning and respect to the whole thing?
Hi Oak. There are lots of posts on the site on strategies for managing limerence and working towards recovery, but – to be honest – it sounds like you are currently trying to bargain with yourself over how you can continue to get access to your LO without the downsides. I’m pessimistic that it’s possible.
It isn’t altogether clear whether you have already started a physical affair – if so, there are articles on the issue of limerence and infidelity to check out to. In that case, you have larger problems than managing your own limerence, as that would mean an unexploded bomb planted under your family, waiting to go off.
If you are still at the stage of limerence without infidelity, then there is more hope that you could achieve a future free of limerence. But it will need you to emotionally detach from your LO.
It is conceivable that you could tough out a few years of romantic agony until you finally break down (or wear out), but it’s not a very appealing prospect for how to live. Fundamentally, you have to make the purposeful decision to start reversing the infatuation, which means reducing contact as far as possible, and working on your own psychological vulnerabilities.
Sorry for the sober assessment, but we’re all about unsentimental support here!
A little wordy, but well said.
(Great response LE)
“is there a way to securely extinguish the flames? while staying in touch?”
In short… No.
With a lot of ongoing mental effort you can dial down the flames a bit but you will never be secure in that, and it is almost impossible to maintain this constantly long term.
The soul crushing contradiction of limerence is that part of you really wants (and needs) to be free, and the rest of you just desperately wants them. But you can’t have both of these. Which one do you want more? Eventually one option will win out and depending on which one, either you end up destroying your marriages, or you choose to kill the relationship.
“is there a way to securely extinguish the flames? while staying in touch?”
What I wonder is – is there a way to take all that gorgeous exuberant limerent energy and focus and redirect somewhere else in life? Like water from a flooding river that can be collected, diverted to a dam, and used to irrigate crops?
Can we build a comprehensive irrigation system to take advantage of our limerent river, while slowly phasing out emotional dependency on a given LO?
Can we harvest our limerent energy, until it dies down completely, and feed it into other more profitable projects and relationships? Or is that all just a bit too tricky and pie-in-the-sky?
I think it’s been mentioned as a symptom elsewhere, but in early stage limetence, (before it gets complicated) I tend to feel quite energised in general. I focus more on my work (which is good, I enjoy my work) and I generally feel more ‘bouncy’ or whatever.
Obviously once things head south I forget almost completely about work because I’m focused entirely on maintaining what I imagine is a nosediving LE… Generally by sending too many texts, too often, then waiting for the responses I AM OWED GODDAMMIT.
I mean. I’m such a cutie! Who’d ghost me? Seriously?
🙄
“Can limerence be de-programmed reliably by delaying gratification..or summoning a higher sense of meaning and respect to the whole thing?”
DrL publishes an Emergency Deprogramming Course which can help but, again, you have to want to do it. And, you need to understand some things about yourself.
Poke around the index. LwL is built on the premise of purposeful living. Things like self-awareness, integrity, trust, and ethics.
LwL covers a lot of ground. DrL talks about things like Twin Flames and spiritual connections and how you think you’re the only person in the world who’s ever felt this way and there should be a grand opera about it. And, LwL talks about unfollowing them on Facebook, avoiding the gym when you know you’re LO will be there, and deleting certain songs from your playlist because they send you into a limerent spiral. It talks about the neuroscience of rewards and the psychology of Attachment Theory.
Some things are scientific, some things are really esoteric, and some things are just plain practical. Some you will understand, some you might not understand. Some things will work, some won’t. Some things you can do, some you can’t do.
Can you get more gratification from knowing you did the right thing than you can by having an affair?
“I don’t necessarily believe in precedents but….is it possible to even wilfully walk out of limerence when a lot of it is being reciprocated?”
Walk out of limerence? It takes work. But, your first problem isn’t walking away from limerence, it’s can you keep yourself from having an affair.
Let’s look at that:
Can you have an affair? – Of course, you can. People are capable of doing a lot of things and can be really creative and resourceful when properly motivated. Even a blind person can shoot someone. It’s just harder for them to hit their target.
So, you are capable having an affair. You’re also capable of not having one.
Should you? – On LwL having an affair is a bad thing so the answer is “No.” The “Should you” is where limerence can throw a wrench in things. DrL talks about how limerence can actually alter your brain chemistry. Check this out https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-neuroscience-of-temptation/
Will you? – Only you can answer that one.
Great summary of the LwL philosophy, LE. Thanks.
It’s already physical : ( has been for years on and off.
The Limerence kicked in a couple of months when someone close to me died.
The physical aspect is the most Beautiful thing I have ever experienced. Both of us are still committed to our marriageS though . It’s very weird and tough now.
Oak,
“The physical aspect is the most Beautiful thing I have ever experienced. ”
I’m not trying to tell you what to do. I don’t subscribe to any particular philosophy, but I’ve had affair sex, and when you move it to the light of day, outside of the context of the affair, it really changes. The sense of urgency and intensity really diminishes. It becomes like anything else you have full access to.
Oak,
So, your side hustle has gone sideways and you’ve become more attached to her. It’s an unintended consequence but not an entirely unforeseen potential consequence. The environment changes and it becomes a whole new ballgame. It’s how I ended up in my last LE/EA.
Pooh happens…not the point.
After rereading back through your posts, what exactly is the problem that you’re trying to fix? If it was working before, why isn’t it working now and how is that manifesting itself? You say you lost a love one. Of all the shoulders in the world you could cry on, why hers? Where it was all fun before, now you want more? Is that a role she’s willing to accept?
Dealing with grief is one of the reasons God invented therapists. And, it’s in most SOs job descriptions.
Moving on…
What’s the “fairy-tale-ending (FTE)” for this? If you could write the story to play out anyway you want it, what does it look like?
Once you figure out the FTE, you assess where you are, what it takes to achieve it, the likelihood of success, what the consequences are, and whether you are you willing to accept them. The steps are straightforward. Pulling off may not be.
You might have to deal with some Cognitive Dissonance surrounding the ethics along the way but it sounds like that hasn’t been a problem in the past. If your attachment is a new thing, it could become one and you could start “leaking.” That is a problem. What was manageable in the past, becomes something a lot harder to manage. You’d be surprised what people pick up on.
Piece of cake…you got this.
There is no fairy tale ending. You can’t control what other people do, how the respond to you and how they feel. All you can do is plot out your own course, with taking into account peoples’ past behavior as most don’t’ change.
Marcia,
I agree with most of what you said.
Oak said, “The Limerence kicked in a couple of months when someone close to me died.”
His FTE could be as simple as returning to the way things were before the person died. It sounds like he and his LO were comfortable in their arrangement. It worked for them.
If dealing with the loss isn’t directly tied to his LO, that may be an achievable goal for him. He just has to pull it off before any potential consequences kick in. The steps are still the same.
His life, his choices.
LE,
“His FTE could be as simple as returning to the way things were before the person died. ”
But that’s not very dramatic, is it? 🙂 I guess I was saying to think very long and hard about blowing up your life for an LO if, for example, that person has proven flim flammy or flakey, etc. That what happens during a 2-hour rendezvous once a week is very different than dealing with someone on a daily basis. There is no guarantee that you’ll be happier on the other side. Now, if there are no children involved (not sure if there are) and this wasn’t a family member, more risk-taking can be considered.
LE,
I like the idea of questioning your FTE.
It sounds like a valuable tool for reflection in an LE.
It’s also difficult. I knew from early on that my FTE with last LO was complete fantasy. Tbh I knew that he actually lacked many qualities to be part of a genuine FTE for me.
But knowing that I was still addicted to what we WERE doing. That I think was paradoxical to him.
Fundamentally we were f***buddies I suppose. I made it clear that I was getting what I needed from that. In a way, my LE provided this magical illusion of closeness. I didn’t need to develop the real relationship further. When I imagined an FTE of cohabitation, walks in the country with my handsome husband etc. None of it rang true. So I opted to remain in limerence, gradually becoming more and more ‘needy’ (his word, horrible, but I’ll own it) but still wanting not to commit.
‘Casual’ + needy. Not a great look in the end.
So, what I’m getting at is, it is possible to dismiss the liklihood of your FTE and opt for ongoing limbo.
Just thoughts. Rambling.
Thomas,
The fact that you can’t craft an FTE tells you as much as if you can.
And, an FTE can change over time.
In 1985, I thought I’d be at this point in my life with LO #2. That was my FTE, then.
Now, my FTE for LO #2 would be to see her standing misty-eyed in front of me saying, “Letting you get away was the biggest mistake I ever made and not a day goes by that I don’t wonder what we might have had together if I hadn’t pushed you away.” I never saw the faintest hint of regret or remorse in LO #2 and I want that. I want to know that the time we spent together mattered and that I mattered. That’s my FTE.
With LO #4, it’s a lot simpler. That FTE was her telling me, “If you’re ever back on the market, look me up.”
I’ll never get either of them. That’s the way it is. Sometimes, you want something just because you want it. It may not be rational.
There’s another game you can play. You clear your mind. Where do you see yourself 6 months, a year, 5 years, 20 years down the road? Is there a particular somebody in that vision? Is there anybody in that vision? Sometimes, it can be kind of a vague, shadowy figure because you haven’t met them yet, and sometimes there’s nobody at all. It can also be interesting to watch someone fade from those visions. They’re just gone.
I play that game from time to time. The only person I see there is my wife. I can’t see exactly where we are or what we’re doing [none of it involves an RV], but we’re doing it together.
Upon further review, Oak told us the goal,
“Both of us are married but also captivated by this “secret” magical relation. Except she is able to lead her daily life comfortably – I am not….’
“Surely if they can love me in a healthy way..while being in marriage (if being unethical can be called health).. surely it must be possible for me as well?”
“Both of us are still committed to our marriageS though .”
Take ethics off the table. No need to discuss that any more. They know what they’re doing.
Marion Solomon, PhD, once said that when most people enter therapy, it’s not because they want real change. They want to become comfortable in their current pathology. His LO appears comfortable in her pathology.
DrL already brought that up. He said, “There are lots of posts on the site on strategies for managing limerence and working towards recovery, but – to be honest – it sounds like you are currently trying to bargain with yourself over how you can continue to get access to your LO without the downsides.”
I think that’s where Oak is. LwL is certainly able to help Oak become more comfortable in his current pathology even if it wasn’t what it was intended for.
Oak never said whether their respective SOs are aware of the affair or if they have kids. He hasn’t said what the possible consequences are. The death has destabilized him and threatens to alter his relation to his LO or screw up one or both marriages. Maybe it’s both.
That’s the thing about LOs. LOs can be intentionally or unintentionally complicit without being malicious. They usually don’t screw up your life, they merely provide you the opportunity to screw up your own life.
Screwing up your life over someone who offers you little or nothing LO is part of the “fun” of limerence. At least, Oak is getting laid once in awhile. That’s more than a lot of limerents get.
Oak seems to be aspiring to match his LO in deadening himself to the emotional consequences of betrayal. I don’t call that a fairytale ending.
Oak – I hope you can find some solace here, and some material that helps you manage your emotions. But I would reiterate that true freedom will only come through purposeful living, and step one would be putting an end to a toxic affair.
this hits the mark as to where I am.
The ethics part is also a bit more complicated on my side because I have accepted my SO’s lover in my life.
I believe we exist once and perhaps we should open our hearts as much as possible – maybe one day I’ll tell my SO about my LO.
However , that’s besides the point at this point. I do want to be comfortable in my pathology – I don’t want to suffer for years. If it could only taper off and turn into a simmering desire from the soul-shaking dependence it currently is?
So much of it is aesthetic – she’s beautiful , out of my league I suppose and that’s perhaps at the heart of my Limerence? (Along with the fact I had the most beautiful conversation with her hours before my loved one died and the next day only my LO seemed to be worth living for?)
I’m on NC for a week now, 3 weeks to go (like I said my LO wouldn’t allow more than that). I feel great. But I am beginning to fear what will happen once we resume talking. Can there be wisdom in feeding Limerence? Is there a way to only give and not receive and hence not make oneself dependent on the LO’s emotional availability / physical availability?
What started from romantic lust , can it be channeled into respectful acknowledgement of desire that is not fed ? I find myself capable to only meet her in family events and just smile at her.
What’s my fairy tale ending?
I want her to be there when one of my parents die. Is that weird?
I want to be there when she loses someone.
She said to me if she were on her deathbed , she would request family to let me be with her alone for some time.
All of this is chemicals? Do you understand why it’s so hard to let go of as if it’s something evil/unwanted?
Anyway, I feel I have found the right place… thank you for your beautiful responses.. please keep them coming. Whatever happens , I hope all of us walk into wisdom with minimal suffering…
Oak,
“Along with the fact I had the most beautiful conversation with her hours before my loved one died and the next day only my LO seemed to be worth living for?…”
That’s a trauma response. It’s not uncommon for someone to bond strongly to someone who’s helped them through trauma. It’s also not uncommon for someone to bond with someone who’s in trauma who’s reached out to them.
When LO #4 told me her relationship collapsed and she reached out to me, I wanted to be there for her. I wanted to be the shoulder she buried her face in and and hold her as she cried. I’d been there before.
I know what it feels like to have a woman bury her face in my shoulder and cry so hard that I could wring her tears out of my shirt. I know what it’s like to straddle that woman while she was on all fours holding her hair out of the toilet, the sour combination of barf and booze in the air as she barfed up half a bottle of Johnny Walker.
I like that feeling, a lot. And, I could see myself doing it again with my last LO. Only the first time, I was free to do it. The last time I wasn’t. Replaying that scene could have ended my marriage.
“What’s my fairy tale ending?
I want her to be there when one of my parents die. Is that weird?
I want to be there when she loses someone.
She said to me if she were on her deathbed , she would request family to let me be with her alone for some time.”
Is your LO a gypsy? That last statement is a curse. You will never forget that statement. You’ll take that to the grave. It’s scary. On your deathbed, who’ll be on your thoughts? On her deathbed, I want LO #2’s last thoughts to be of me. Petty, but true and I wish I’d been smart enough to say it at our goodbye, but I didn’t.
“What started from romantic lust , can it be channeled into respectful acknowledgement of desire that is not fed ? I find myself capable to only meet her in family events and just smile at her.”
If you take DrL’s advice and put your mind to it you might be able to do it.
LE,
“On her deathbed, I want LO #2’s last thoughts to be of me. ”
Why would you even care? Why would something like that even cross your mind? I turned down someone’s proposal fewer years ago than this woman turned down yours, and I hope he’s let me go. I’ve let him go. I’d be shocked if he hadn’t. He’s married to someone else. He has a whole other life. As it should be.
“Why would you even care? Why would something like that even cross your mind?”
Short answer: After reading my history of the relationship, one therapist said the relationship with LO #2 was abusive and I had mild PTSD. She said that’s why I can’t let go. That therapist actually knew LO #2 when we were dating.
Therapy helped a lot and it’s way better but it didn’t eliminate it entirely.
Therapists are people with their own limitations and biases. You take what you can from them and discard the rest. What they say isn’t necessarily “the word.”
A lot of people are in abusive relationships.
That guy I previously dated who kept reappearing and disappearing … reappeared again! I had blocked him on social media but only deleted his contact in my phone. I can’t remember the last time he contacted me by phone and didn’t worry about it. But he called a couple of days ago! I can be as mad as I want to (and I was), I can become a Taylor-Swift-he-did-me-wrong song on endless loop … or I can realize that how I deal with this is not on him but on me.
This comment was intended as a response to Limerence Emeritus (and not Dr. Limerence’s much more sobering comment : ) )
this hits the mark as to where I am.
The ethics part is also a bit more complicated on my side because I have accepted my SO’s lover in my life.
I believe we exist once and perhaps we should open our hearts as much as possible – maybe one day I’ll tell my SO about my LO.
However , that’s besides the point at this point. I do want to be comfortable in my pathology – I don’t want to suffer for years. If it could only taper off and turn into a simmering desire from the soul-shaking dependence it currently is?
So much of it is aesthetic – she’s beautiful , out of my league I suppose and that’s perhaps at the heart of my Limerence? (Along with the fact I had the most beautiful conversation with her hours before my loved one died and the next day only my LO seemed to be worth living for?)
I’m on NC for a week now, 3 weeks to go (like I said my LO wouldn’t allow more than that). I feel great. But I am beginning to fear what will happen once we resume talking. Can there be wisdom in feeding Limerence? Is there a way to only give and not receive and hence not make oneself dependent on the LO’s emotional availability / physical availability?
What started from romantic lust , can it be channeled into respectful acknowledgement of desire that is not fed ? I find myself capable to only meet her in family events and just smile at her.
What’s my fairy tale ending?
I want her to be there when one of my parents die. Is that weird?
I want to be there when she loses someone.
She said to me if she were on her deathbed , she would request family to let me be with her alone for some time.
All of this is chemicals? Do you understand why it’s so hard to let go of as if it’s something evil/unwanted?
Anyway, I feel I have found the right place… thank you for your beautiful responses.. please keep them coming. Whatever happens , I hope all of us walk into wisdom with minimal suffering…
Oak.
For clarification, your SO has a lover? You have welcomed them into your life.
Is this correct?
Is your primary relationship open?
Also Oak,
A lot of deathbed imagery in last post. Grief is a powerful thing.
It might be worth seeking some support from a counsellor, or even speaking to somebody on a helpline.
Lots of emotions.
“All of this is chemicals? Do you understand why it’s so hard to let go of as if it’s something evil/unwanted?”
@Oak.
You raise an interesting point. The highs and lows of limerence are obviously chemical in nature. And yet, at the same time, us limerents often create in our heads some story about our LOs or the limerence itself, which further reinforces and legitimises whatever it is the chemicals are doing.
The story becomes powerful. The emotions tied to the story become powerful. Sometimes, even a person’s whole identity can become wrapped up in limerence. E.g. this is the only person who appreciates the real me. I never felt loved, and then I met this wonderful human…
Do the chemical feed the emotions? Do the emotions feed the chemicals? I think, once the chemicals and the emotions have become fused, it’s very hard to separate them again and say just what is chemical and what is emotional. We almost become the star character in a movie, and the movie plot is being driven by our own unconscious biological mechanisms.
I guess limerence activates an intensely emotional part of our brains?
Do we attribute amazing qualities to our LOs because they make us feel so good? Do we celebrate “love” because “love” (really infatuation) makes us feel so good? What happens when the chemicals wear off? Do we stop believing in romance? Do we see LOs as the frightfully boring mortals they were all along, etc? Do we admit we made a mistake and try again with somebody new, only for the same process of disillusionment to occur?
Obviously, I’m being playful in my remarks. But, yes, so many questions.
I don’t know if we should say limerence is evil/unwanted. Maybe we can phrase that more tactfully? I mean, limerence thrives on obstacles. So, if one believes people are frowning on limerence, that’s only going to strengthen the limerence. Limerence needs to be seen as … hm, I dunno … a unique biological state that’s thrilling but doesn’t last indefinitely?
Just as it is hard to people outside of the limerence experience to understand what limerence is, it’s hard for people who are undergoing limerence to remember what life was life before limerence came along. Limerence kind of messes around with memories and perceptions.
It is a really complicated subject. My limerent episode has come to an end. But I can’t go back to the man (really, boy) I was before limerence. Limerence changed me and it changed me for the better I believe. (It allowed me to develop aspects of my personality that had been repressed). But it also took a long, long time to get off the limerent crazy train… 😛
Seeing a limerent episode through to its logical conclusion (hopefully self-awareness and self-growth, outgrowing the real and/or perceived charms of a given LO) takes its own kind of moral fortitude and commitment.
In a nutshell, suffering can be very beneficial to one’s character, and make one a better person. But should sane human beings expose themselves to suffering willy-nilly if said suffering can be easily avoided?
Many thanks for sharing this, Dr L! It’s helpful 🙂