A reader got in touch recently, to ponder about the relationship between limerence and ego.
A couple of years ago, R found herself in the awful sweet spot of bathing in professional praise and admiration, but from a married mentor. Predictably, that built in uncertainty caused limerence.
We will draw a veil of modesty over the turbulent period that followed, and skip to the end, when R took purposeful action to detach. She is now at the stage of recovery where she’s able to look back at the experience analytically, and try to break down what was going on. Here’s one of her insights:
I now see that our professional relationship was highly rewarding to both of our egos; for me his praise also helped to soothe over my ingrained and increasingly debilitating imposter syndrome (which now I have to do the unpleasant and hard work of honestly facing and intentionally working on, for the first time in my life).
Limerence is all about reward. Getting praise from a mentor is hugely rewarding for most people, and especially potent if you are a bit insecure about your performance. But, as R points out, it cuts both ways. It’s great to praise people who are doing good work, too. And it can be a positive feedback loop. If the praise makes you work harder to get more reward, the mentor is even happier and enlivened and the whole work dynamic gets a lift.
We covered this concept in a previous Case Study, so won’t go too much deeper into it, but the central point is that the limerence starts because of the reward of ego validation, rather than simple romantic attraction. That kind of reward is not so easy to find elsewhere, and so a mentor-LO has particular attraction.
But R raises a related point: what happens during recovery if ego had been an important part of becoming limerent in the first place?
I still have many moments when I think “Does he still think of me? Was it true that he thought I was so amazing and will he really have a hard time getting over me? Is he getting over me?” Since I don’t think of this man as a reward anymore but as a gateway to self-destruction, I can’t think of an explanation for these thoughts other than my ego, which is annoying because I want to keep intrusive thoughts of any kind about him at bay.
As the current cliché puts it, there’s a lot to unpack there. Let’s throw open the suitcase and pull out all the dirty laundry.
1. Pride
It’s pretty obvious that pride is a big part of the problem. Much of the thrill of being admired comes from the gratification of knowing you are impressive and desirable. Even if the ego-boosting praise is mostly professional, there’s always the personal satisfaction of knowing you are the one who earned it.
Once we start on the healthy choice of withdrawal, it is inevitable that LO will notice the change in our behaviour, and it is likely they will start to cool off on the praise in response. Even if we know that the limerent episode has to come to an end for our own sanity, there’s a prideful part of us that wants them to stay besotted by our brilliance.
At one level this could be professional pride about our status as protégé, but at a deeper level it’s personal. It might have been our work that was praised, but we felt it as personal validation. We don’t want that to stop, even though we know it’s feeding the infatuation. It feels like rejection, irrational as that is, given that we made the decision to detach.
If, in contrast, LO is the one that starts the cooling off, the sting of rejection is even worse. Our pride can really get bruised by them losing interest. Suddenly, ego-validation has been replaced by unsettling doubts. You now have to weather creeping insecurity about your attractiveness.
Regardless of who started the withdrawal, the loss of interest from LO often causes a reflexive attempt by the limerent to pull them back in. This is another way that ego can complicate recovery: when our plan to detach starts to work, the loss of ego-validation is so aversive that we try to prove to ourselves that we can still recapture them if we want.
Our dented pride makes us reconnect, just to show that we still have what it takes to impress.
2. The intoxication of power
Pride doesn’t just get bruised by insecurity. It is a cardinal sin, after all, and there are more disreputable causes of pridefulness than earned praise.
If the limerence dynamic was based on mutual flattery and ego-fluffing, it’s likely you crossed a few boundaries. If, for example, you’d started testing your powers to seduce or manipulate a mentor LO, you’ll be familiar with the thrill of successfully enticing them into impropriety.
It’s pretty intoxicating to know that you can get someone with professional status to do what you want. To know that – if you feel like it – you’ll be able to use your influence to get them to play some flirty games with you, or show you a little too much favour, or take a risk they otherwise wouldn’t dare, to impress you.
Once the mutual ego-fluffing begins to fade, that power fades with it. Even if you made a purposeful and mature decision to bring an end to the limerence yourself, it’s likely you will still miss those titillating highs.
Exercising power over someone you desire can be intoxicating. Surrendering that power causes complicated emotions – melancholy, regret, shame, and loss.
3. Manipulative mentors
While we’re on the subject of slightly seedy highs, some mentors use praise manipulatively to hook attractive co-workers into intimacy. Perhaps LO was the one crossing boundaries, and using your vulnerability to flattery to get what they wanted.
Once the limerence fog clears, you realise how badly your judgement was compromised. This can start you wondering whether the “thing” between you was real, imagined… or a manipulation on their part. Doubt about this can gnaw at you, especially if you have imposter syndrome.
That can lead again to intrusive thoughts. Your ego doesn’t want to accept that you might have been played, and so reviews old encounters for evidence of sincere admiration, or mutual limerence. You end up in a trap of rumination and overanalysis – precisely the trap you were trying to escape.
One shortcut here that could be useful for mental deprogramming is to decide that, yes, they were just faking. You fell for the false flattery of a sleazy LO who was only using you for narcissistic supply.
Wallow in that uncomfortable idea for a while, and use it to sully the memory of reward. Even if it is not true (and it probably isn’t) your subconscious will still absorb the unpleasant association. That can help accelerate the extinction of old habits of daydreaming about them.
4. Embarrassment
Another ego-bruising aspect of recovery is the memory of past embarrassment. Maybe you got carried away in the intoxication and went too far. Maybe they had to rein you in at work.
Most limerents have embarrassed themselves in some way (often many ways) over the course of an infatuation. Our egos remember this, and can’t bear the thought that all of that risk taking and exposure to ridicule might have been for nothing.
It’s rather like the sunk cost fallacy – we commit so much passion and energy into limerence that letting go seems like a loss. Even if we know it’s the right thing to do.
We’ve extended ourselves, made ourselves vulnerable, embarrassed ourselves. And that was all for nothing?
That can be another cue to start wondering about what you meant to them. You search for some sign that they are still thinking of you, still value you, care about you more than the simple transaction of a mutual ego-boost.
The hope is that some form of confirmation or closure might salve the embarrassment. It’s a false hope, of course, but when has that ever stopped your limerent brain from trying?
Overall, ego and limerence can interact in complex and contradictory ways all the way from first glimmer to full recovery. How your own ego reacts to a limerence experience can potentially tell you important things about the psychological vulnerabilities that you have.
Once you make the purposeful decision to stop the limerent reinforcement, you will discover all new ways that your vulnerabilities manifest. That is actually an opportunity.
Just like R and her imposter syndrome, the purposeful choice to end limerence unexpectedly confronts you with Work That Needs To Be Done. The purposeful choice is to deal with those vulnerabilities at last, slow and painful as that may be, rather than continuing to use limerence as a way to mask them.
Thank you, this is clear & helpful, as well as relevant to my situation. What happens when you must keep in touch with them, due to the work-related circumstances of your involvement? How can one recover and distance and heal, when one is continually faced with the necessity of being in touch for non-social reasons? How much should the limerent person divulge to the LO about the reasons for the new emotional distance (short of the nightmare of disclosure, of course)? In my case, their is no professional hierarchy–it’s more on even footing–which makes it even more confusing somehow. Anyway thanks again, wonderful post as always.
*there
Here are a couple of relevant posts, Filbert:
Limerence for a coworker
When not to disclose
Thank you! These were good to read. I think that the lack of a clear institutional or business framework, in my situation, makes things a lot murkier…but the general message is right on the mark. I guess the hard part comes when one doesn’t really, truly desire a cessation of the LE. It’s hard to put down that sweet treat even when it’s messing up your teeth and wrecking your diet.
Hi Filbert,
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread. Just wondered how you got on, as I am in a similar situation.
” I guess the hard part comes when one doesn’t really, truly desire a cessation of the LE. It’s hard to put down that sweet treat even when it’s messing up your teeth and wrecking your diet.”
That has always been my problem too Filbert, so I have been very self indulgent over the last 20 months or so. And I still feel that way. Eventually though, the growing realisation that there really is no hope completely ruins the fantasy. After that point, when you do feel yourself slipping into a delicious limerent reverie, your mind automatically reminds you that the reverie is pointless as nothing will EVER happen and continuing it will only lead to distress. This momentary pause gives you the choice to turn your attention to something else. After a while, even though you still love them, the longing is not painful any more as you have accepted your reality, and have started to live purposefully again. Life feels a bit flat sometimes, but then you turn your attention to the moment and look for some small positive thing to be grateful for.
I’ve been suspecting mainly ego issues behind my ongoing LE. In my case it is not a mentor, but a much younger co-worker who seemed to have a LOT of admiration for me (older, wiser and career-wise more advanced woman/mother/wife approaching middle age). It was really unexpected. I lead a full and exhausting life between family and work. And there is this guy 10 years or more my junior who looks at me as if he’s never seen or heard more beautiful, interesting, intelligent. Could have still been a manipulative move on his part – I must have been easy prey – and I am alternately embarrassed and amused that I might have become the topic of student milf talk. But then he was so shy and careful and sensitive during our few encounters… it’s a tough one to shake, even though there was never any contact outside of work meetings last year. The ego boost was addictive.
“I am alternately embarrassed and amused that I might have become the topic of student milf talk.”
Love this 😀 ❤
Yep,
It gets even worse when you think “Kid, you have no idea of what else I could teach you.”
I really relate to this. Being sensitive introverts, the interplay between my boss LO and I has been far more subtle than explicit praise. I enjoy learning from him and I think he enjoy my rapt interest in what he has to say. I think that grew into us both simply enjoying each other’s attention, which in turn lead to our mutual admiration/attraction and desire to support and please each other. It felt so good to be admired and cared for by someone I have that much trust and respect for. There were occasions when his emotional leakage was such that I could palpably feel the power I had over him, but I get the impression this was a humiliation for him. He has sadly been mostly avoidant in recent months thus I deeply miss his care and attention… life feels flat without that. My (and maybe his) ego is(are) definitely a factor in all of this. I am not sure what I can learn from it though – no matter how resilient I am, I think I would always enjoy this type of mutual admiration.
Sometimes the only lesson is: I am at risk when I start on these kinds of relationships.
It sounds as though your mutual admiration happened naturally, but if we are committed to a monogamous relationship, admiring other potential partners and enjoying their attraction to you in return is bound to put everyone at risk.
“Sometimes the only lesson is: I am at risk when I start on these kinds of relationships.” Yes very true. If only I had been consciously aware that I had started this type off relationship before the seed of attraction was sown because at that point it was too late. I guess next time, I will be better at recognising the early signs.
“if we are committed to a monogamous relationship, admiring other potential partners and enjoying their attraction to you in return is bound to put everyone at risk”
Because monogamy is so fragile.
I wonder if “monogamy is so fragile” because it too is bound up with ego….? And I love the notion that only a new LO will get rid of an old one. I think that’s so true.
What a great post, Dr. L.
Landry,
“And I love the notion that only a new LO will get rid of an old one. I think that’s so true.”
That is how it’s been with my last two LOs. I didn’t get completely over the first one until the second one showed up (years later). I wonder if that’s why the most recent one has hung around in my subconscious for so long … I haven’t come close to meeting another LO. The LE has really died down, but I’d be lying if I said it was completely gone. I wonder if as limerents we need something to occupy our mind/soul. 🙂
Monogamy (and I am really referring to lifelong monogamy here) is fragile for many many reasons. Ego being a big one!
As DrL puts it “admiring other potential partners and enjoying their attraction to you in return is bound to put everyone at risk”. That spells out its inherent fragility doesn’t it? Making simply admiring others out of bounds? I admire other people all the time. Finding others attractive is part of life, having someone find you attractive is lovely and natural. Warm affectionate feelings towards others (of any gender) is the glue that holds us together in the supportive companionate sense. Often those feelings are accompanied by admiration, and sometimes, attraction. To say this very normal human behaviour is not allowed because you are in a monogamous relationship and that puts it at risk? I feel like I cannot live fully!
Also for me, monogamy is fragile because it is sexually unsatisfying thus is a barrier to my having my basic needs met… and I must tolerate this situation for 50% of my life. Or be considered a terrible mother, wife, person.
Blimey.. that turned into a more of a rant than I intended! 🙂
I should clarify my comment, Allie, as you are quite right about the need for affection as social nourishment. When I say “bound to put everyone at risk”, the risk is that the affection could escalate into limerence if you are not self-aware and purposeful enough to know your limits.
I wrote a post a while ago about the tipping points along the road to an affair. That’s what I mean, really. If they’ve not had the experience of attraction spiralling out of control, limerents can blithely tumble through all those milestones without realising that it is a lot harder to get out of limerence than to get into it.
I think anyone healthy enjoys feeling attractive, and enjoys the occasional flirt. But, if you just drift along welcoming the good vibes, without any checks or balances, you can end up becoming limerent, and jeopardising a monogamous relationship, even without any deliberate intent to cheat.
Allie 1,
I don’t know if I believe monogamy is inherently fragile. It might be for some people, it might not be for others.
LO #1 told me that when she was with me that felt like she was cheating on her BF. She was. I don’t know who else she slept with that year they were apart but for her monogamy was “flexible.” LO #2 told me after we broke up that she felt like she was cheating on me when she was with my successor. That didn’t make me feel any better.
4 of 6 of LO #2’s failed relationships were either cheating with someone or being cheated on. It may have been 5 of 6 but it doesn’t matter. Infidelity defined her world view.
I had a coworker tell me the only reason a woman would make a pass at me was to see if she could get me to cheat. I told my coworker that I didn’t see that as a compliment.
She said that it wasn’t meant as a compliment, it was meant as a warning. She said a woman could tell when a man was open to cheating and I didn’t have the flag up. So, the only reason a woman would make a run at me was for sport. My coworker said that she knew women who might do that.
In 30+ years of marriage, only woman managed to get inside my head that I didn’t know before I got married, LO #4. In those same 30+ years of marriage, I only remember one woman that I think was after me. I wasn’t attracted to her but being around her gave me the willies and I made sure I was never alone with her.
In my goodbye to her, I told LO #4, “Some people you meet in life are like a piece of fine art. They will never be yours and you don’t even get to touch them but it doesn’t mean that you don’t appreciate them when you encounter them.”
I have no idea what she thought of it.
I don’t think I’ve ever been cheated on. If LO #2 or my wife ever did, they were smart enough never to tell me and good enough to pull it off without me catching wind of it.
Like most other things, it’s individual.
LE,
“I had a coworker tell me the only reason a woman would make a pass at me was to see if she could get me to cheat. I told my coworker that I didn’t see that as a compliment.”
Is your co-worker a man? I’ve never witnessed that as a reason. I suppose some women might make a pass at, for example, a married co-worker because they are bored and want a little excitement but not as some kind of test. I made a pass at my married LO because I really wanted him. For me, it was not sport. There are many reasons a woman may make a pass a man, married or otherwise. Some have to do with strong interest; some don’t.
Marcia,
My now ex-cowoker is a woman. I think the point she was trying to make was that a woman could tell when a man is looking for trouble and I wasn’t. But, maybe she meant something else.
When LO #2 told me my successor was cheating on her, I told her that I never cheated on her.
She said, “I know. I don’t think you’re capable of it.”
I’d like to think that it was a tribute to my integrity but it may have been her way of saying that I didn’t have the balls to cheat on her.
LE,
“My now ex-coworker is a woman. ”
My bad. That sounded like something a man would say to another man, without understanding how woman think.
“I think the point she was trying to make was that a woman could tell when a man is looking for trouble and I wasn’t.”
There are definitely married men who put out the feelers. Some are very flirtatious but have no intention of following through. Others can’t follow through. I had a married guy years ago who was always making sexual comments at me but the few moments we were alone, nothing much ever happened. He was shaking. I think he was terrified at the thought of going through with it.
“I guess next time, I will be better at recognising the early signs.”
Been thinking about this… the stupidest thing is, if I did recognise the early signs again with someone else, I can absolutely see myself diving enthusiastically head-first into it. Because only then will my mind be free of my LO.
Am I a prize idiot or what!
Allie,
” I did recognise the early signs again with someone else, I can absolutely see myself diving enthusiastically head-first into it. Because only then will my mind be free of my LO.”
I laughed out loud at this. The only way to get rid of one LO .. . is to get another! 🙂
This is really great, Dr L. This post has me thinking a lot about a key issue: embarrassment after the end of an LE. If the ego is simply associated with pride, then if someone is not too prideful, or not too personally insecure, it would be an enigma that the ego would be bruised. But embarrassment: this makes much sense. Even with a relatively intact sense of self, it can create real feelings of shame and humiliation to have invested a lot in somebody, to really go “aboveboard” (in classic limerent style) even if only in your mind, only to then have it be … for nothing. Makes sense that the ego would long for either closure or, more problematic, confirmation to save some face.
This is probably where purposeful living is helpful though. If transformation and personal growth were triggered from the difficult experience of limerence, it was not for nothing. But even if feeling embarrassed can’t be avoided, then if the evolutionary purpose of this emotion is to feel negatively about our mistakes so we don’t repeat them again, maybe it’s not too bad of a thing. As long as we don’t let our limerent brain use it to derail our recovery, maybe it can teach us a little bit about what thought patterns and behaviors generated these uncomfortable feelings and how more purposeful living can avoid or manage these better in the future. Silver linings, I guess.
I know that ego played a big part in my last LE.
I got LO #4’s attention by posting on her site. She liked what I had to say and asked me to be a moderator. She published 3 articles I wrote on her blog.
One of the articles really got her attention. She asked a lot of questions and said it got her seeing some things from a different perspective. I told her that on the subject she was asking about, she may be the closest thing to a protege that I ever get. She used that article as a basis for a chapter in her book. So, in one respect, I’ll live forever.
Later, after she left her BF, she told me that I opened up her eyes to what was happening in her relationship and that she’d always be grateful to me.
Coming from an attractive, intelligent woman with her credentials, it was really an ego boost.
“Overall, ego and limerence can interact in complex and contradictory ways all the way from first glimmer to full recovery. How your own ego reacts to a limerence experience can potentially tell you important things about the psychological vulnerabilities that you have.”
I think ego has been a barrier for me in overcoming limerence. I.e. if I’m so wonderful, why didn’t he want me? And if I’m not wonderful, why did LO say and/or imply I was? Was LO’s admiration real or feigned? Does LO just go around telling everybody they’re “amazing” and the adjective itself mean nothing?
When I was younger, a lot of people admired me or at least said they admired me for my real and/or perceived abilities. I’m not sure whether they had an ulterior motive or not, or whether they were just being nice. What I’ve learnt, though, is that admiration is a really poor substitute for love. I.e. if I want a person to love me and they only admire me, even if that admiration is sincere and deserved, admiration still feels like a really crummy consolation prize.
In one of my first jobs, I had a male co-worker and I guess I must have been in the market for an LO. I wanted this fellow to desire me, and he obviously didn’t desire me. So I decided my (very subtle) revenge would be to force him to admire me instead, by being such an amazing worker, etc, and outshining him! Being admired was the next best thing to being desired. I put a lot of effort into my work and earned the praises of my other co-workers. And eventually this male co-worker overheard our colleagues singing my praises and complimented me too.
That was just about the most empty and indirect way of getting revenge ever. I don’t think it hurt either of us professionally. Nor did it soothe my battered ego.
This male co-worker, on the other hand, wasn’t such a great worker. He made mistakes. Sometimes the boss would publicly berate him on something, like his fantastically messy work space. But the curious thing about this guy is he had a really thick skin naturally. So he wasn’t in the least bit frazzled when the boss told him off. Privately, I gloated when he got in trouble. I felt superior to him! Yay! i felt like I’d won whatever imaginary contest I was having with him…
My obsession with one-upping this guy to punish him for not wanting me was immature and ridiculous in hindsight. If I wasn’t competing with him and accepted our bond would never be romantic, we could have been friends. He was a nice guy. I would have enjoyed work a lot more had I befriended my colleagues, and not been trying to get some ego fix. (Extracting praise from superiors, waiting for equals to make mistakes. My self-esteem was pretty shaky then).
The oddest thing about this hidden rivalry: my other co-workers assumed that this guy and I were really close mates because there was no obvious friction between us and we were always super-polite. I was dying inside because of all the emotions I was feeling, but continued to help him and accept his help work-wise. I actually think this guy perceived me as extremely reliable, easy-going, trustworthy, etc, even if our relationship was never warm. However, I don’t think he was overly warm with anyone. What am I trying to say? I hated him and … he felt really comfortable around me because I remained loyal and never let my hatred show. Gosh, am I a terrible person?
But yes, watch out for admiration. I think admiration, deserved or not, sincere or not, is one of the ways people can get sucked into the vortex of limerence. My insatiable thirst for admiration as a young man … might have been my Achilles heel. It left me vulnerable to the machinations of smooth-talkers. 😛
“What I’ve learnt, though, is that admiration is a really poor substitute for love. I.e. if I want a person to love me and they only admire me, even if that admiration is sincere and deserved, admiration still feels like a really crummy consolation prize.”
Yeah,
People often admire you for your achievements. They can admire you for traits you possess like intelligence, integrity, perseverance, drive, empathy, etc.
But they can only love you for who you are.
“What I’ve learnt, though, is that admiration is a really poor substitute for love. I.e. if I want a person to love me and they only admire me, even if that admiration is sincere and deserved, admiration still feels like a really crummy consolation prize.”
This.
As an overachiever I have had my share of admiration. Yes, it’s sweet for the ego. But being object of desire is what it craves. Being loved. Admiration is a frustrating response from LO.
This 100%.
My current LO is widely admired and liked; that certainly played a part in my wanting to get his attention. I partially achieved my goal –certainly won his praise and admiration, but like you say, it was not enough. We never crossed any big boundaries but I invested too much effort in trying to win more of his attention.
@Blue Ivy, M.
Maybe admiration can become problematic for some limerents because it fuels uncertainty? Possibly, our limerent brains interpret expressions of admiration as “hope”?
I think we have hope the admiration will transition into Great Love. Sometimes people do get to have both, alas though, not the limerent.
About 2 weeks ago – after a 6 month hiatus from posting here – I updated that I had finally gotten free of a particularly virulent strain of limerence and I was able to breathe and live again. Well, the victory lap proved a bit premature. LO announced her feelings to me after I went back home to wife after 3 month break. I was basically available to her at any time during that period, and we met almost every day, yet nothing happened.
Since then, a scant 10 days or so, we started showing physical affections, hugs, kiss on the cheeks etc. Then just a few days ago she pulled back again. Now, after all this hell that I thought was gone, I find my self back at the start. I feel a crushing sadness and desire to be with her – which is now harder, as I am back home. We agreed to give each other space for the 100th time. The odd thing was when I went back home after months of being away, I had somehow reconciled that it was over with LO. I had done all that I could and I had thrown in the towel.
This latest twist leads me to a cruelly misshapen world view. Suddenly all the peace of mind I had gained seems in tatters. I hardly got through it last time and I barely got to enjoy the fruits of my freedom. Now all the jealousy, rumination and desire to be with her are back and are overwhelming. The rain of matter upon sense dulls me momently. Good luck, folks, it’s a bum deal, this limerence. Maybe something will come out of it some day.
At least you got some sort of interaction out of it. It at least sounds like you were rejected “as a guy” and not wholly rejected “as a human being”. I know this probably isn’t very consoling, but it is at least something positive — or not.
I agree that there is definitely a connection between limerence and ego, but I think there is more to it than just ego alone; it is FRUSTRATION too! It is the frustration of coming oh soo close to success (real or imagined) and having it all fall apart – every time; it is a different LO, it a different set of circumstances, and a different time in history, but the results are always the same — total rejection. It is the frustration of being told by family and friends “I told you so”, especially after declaring, in all sincerity in the past, that “someday I’m going to surprise everyone”, only to keep falling on my face about once per decade.