I write a lot about marriage and limerence (because I’m a married limerent), but I sometimes hear from friends, family and the media all about the perils of modern dating. So, for those readers still out there in the trenches, today’s your lucky day! Here’s some unsolicited advice about dating while limerent…
It strikes me now, looking back, how fortunate I was in dodging bullets in my youth. Like most youngsters, I had no idea what I was doing, what was healthy dating behaviour, or what red flags to beware of. It was all just winging it on intuition and instinct. Mercifully, I have no stories about the narcissists who messed with me, or the dream girl who ghosted me (and then haunted me for years), or the toxic relationships that knackered my self-esteem. It wasn’t all plain sailing, of course, but I was still pretty much unscathed by the time I met my wife.
With the benefit of hindsight, I can see that was pretty lucky. After a few years of studying the neuroscience of limerence, I now understand how some common dating behaviours could really exacerbate the negative consequences of limerence. Quite apart from the inherent fact that limerents and non-limerents will have different expectations, there are some habits in particular that will feed the killer combo of hope and uncertainty that amplify limerence.
So, buckle up, and let’s compile a list of dating red flags!
1) They’re married
Just don’t. If you have any integrity it will eat at you as you betray your principles, and the barriers and uncertainty will feed your limerence. You’ll be infatuated AND guilt ridden. Plus your self-esteem will erode away.
This isn’t a difficult red flag to spot, but it’s such a big one we kind of have to cover it.
2a) They are often strangely unavailable when you want to arrange a date
They’re married.
2b) They cancel dates at short notice
OK, it’s possible that they could be a spy, rather than married, but whatever. If they frequently drop off the grid or cancel on you, then they’re going to be a nightmare of uncertainty. You’ll feel constantly wrong-footed, and that will make your insecure limerent brain crave reciprocation ever more strongly. Meanwhile you’ll be stuck in a cycle of rumination, trying to figure out just how into you they really are.
Unreliable people are bad news for insecure limerents.
3) You occasionally have a big row that convinces you that you have to stop seeing them, but the next day they are really apologetic and nice, and behave exactly like the person you want to be with.
They’re a narcissist. They are not a mysterious and brooding spirit who can be tamed. Run for your life.
4) When they reminisce about previous times together, your memories are different in important ways
A bit more subtle this, but another indicator of an LO who is likely to do a number on your psychology. Be particularly aware of times when the emotions of your memories don’t seem to match. If they say you had a lovely day together, but you remember constantly wondering if they were in a mood about something, be very cautious.
The best you can say is that you are not on the same page, the worst is that they’ll gaslight the hell out of you.
5) All of their exes were abusive
They could be incredibly unlucky in their past choices, but then that should make you wonder why they picked you this time. Alternatively, they are an unreliable witness. Or they frequently get embroiled with dangerous people. None of these are good traits for a future partner. Limerents with a bad case of the rescue-fantasies will be particularly vulnerable.
You could try and save them, or you could save yourself.
6) They are really into you, really quickly
The clumsy love-bombers are easy to spot, but the artisans will make you believe they are just as befuddled by the shocking urgency of their feelings as you are. By golly, they’ve never felt like this for anyone before!
This could be another sign of a narcissist, or it could just be someone who is likely to be dazzled by the next person that comes along once your sparkles have faded. Either way, the inevitable switch from super-keen to super-cool will be hard to take, and send your limerence anxiety into overdrive.
7) Disarming frankness
Oversharing can lead to closeness, but be wary of bonding before you really know what LO is like. Be especially wary if – during their open-hearted chats – they admit to infidelity, violence, criminality, or reckless promiscuity. Limerent idealisation may make you overlook these massive blaring klaxons of danger.
8) They talk a lot about how hard their life has been
OK, this is a bit of a grey area because some people really do have trials, and it’s inevitable they will talk about them. But the curious thing is, most people who really have something to complain about, tend not to. If you find yourself dating someone who dwells on all their disappointments, and the crushing unfairness of life, chances are they are not a fascinating tortured soul, they just have a persecution complex.
Compassionate limerents could end up idealising these LOs, seeing them as broken angels whose wings can surely be mended.
9) They tell you up front that they are not looking for anything serious
Believe them. Your limerent brain will try and persuade you that they are more desirable because they are unattainable. Your competitive spirit will wonder if you can win the prize. You’ll get some reciprocation while the sex is good, but the uncertainty will set you up for hyperactive rumination.
An exception here, of course, is if you are not looking for anything serious either. The problem is that the nature of limerence is total psychological capture. You might tell yourself intellectually that you don’t want to settle down or get serious, but your limerent brain will be driving you to pair bond. It will be very tough to avoid total infatuation for an LO who is giving you intimacy but also dating other people.
Casual limerence isn’t really a thing.
10) They flirt with others in front of you
We’re back to the narcs. If they can’t even make it through a date without needing extra attention, they’ll really keep you on edge if you do become limerent.
Narc LOs are the worst.
OK, limerent daters? Now you know what to do. No excuses.
Just avoid all those red flags, choose from the half dozen remaining candidates available in your city, and go for it!
And hope they haven’t got a similar list of red flags about limerents…
Dr L, this advice is 100% full-proof! You have hit all the nails on all the heads. This blog post should be circulated to all young people entering into the world of dating, if only I had read something like this 15 years ago! People need extra body armour like this.
🙂 That’s the thing about experience – you get it just after you need it.
this is a wonderful post thankyou
i actually love being limerent and having my emotions be so wildly strong and flowing, but if you look at my very silvery growing out purple hair at 35, you can see this is as stressful as being a head of state
I think I have also had a lucky pre-marital dating life, having managed to avoid most of the above – with some exceptions:
For me “You occasionally have a big row that convinces you that you have to stop seeing them, but the next day they are really apologetic and nice, and behave exactly like the person you want to be with” was not a narcissist but an insecure, highly jealous and slightly tempestuous partner that absolutely and utterly adored me, but whose sweet but flirty and insecure mother was repeatedly unfaithful to his father thus making him struggle to trust women. We made each other miserable in the end – that took 3.5 years as I have always been incapable of ending relationships. I now place this relationship under the “what was I thinking!?” category. I think he was my male equivalent of a “damsel in distress” and I tried to be his rescuer. I was never full-on limerent for him though.
In my youth, I entered a few relationships with the attitude of “not looking for anything serious” but then that often changes when the mutual fun turns into a deeper connection. I would never date someone that stated this explicitly though….bit of a double standard maybe but I always knew my vulnerabilities.
I also once had a mutual “They are really into you, really quickly” – this was my only experience of mutual limerence and gave me the best sexual experience of my life! He was my teacher on an adults IT course, a dynamic that really aroused both of us. It ended after 6 weeks when the conversation dried up as we had little in common once the course ended.
What fun to reminisce!
Yes, I did hesitate over that one, as there can be positive experiences for mutual limerents who are single. But (as you found) they are often fuelled by little more than fumes and so burn out just as fast as they erupt.
I should probably a caveat – despite being a pretty secure person, those 6 weeks were emotionally exhausting as I felt insecure and unable to be myself with him. I think “riding the tiger” is an apt phrase of yours …..thrilling but an experience only suitable for the (emotionally) resilient!
Song of the Day: “Love’s Been A Little Bit Hard On Me” – Juice Newton (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tatoOZ2-uw
I encountered at least half of these criteria before I met my wife but they weren’t all with LOs. My wife was a 2b to the point I thought she was married and not telling me. I had a “3 strikes rule” and she got the count to 0-2. But, I was never limerent for my wife. She didn’t fit my profile.
LOs #2 & #4 were both #5. Since I spent the most time with LO #2, she had a few of the others.
I’m not vulnerable to #6. I had one experience with a Love Bomber. I dated one woman who pulled #10 and when I called her on it, she told me, “I was trying to make you angry.” I told her she succeeded and jettisoned her. The downside of that was she was studying to be a massage therapist and I was getting free in-home massages twice a week.
The problem is most of these cannot be applied proactively. Like allergies, most of the time you don’t know what you’re allergic to until you trip to it. Bees are very beneficial to the ecosystem but if you’re severely allergic, one sting can kill you.
Remember that field trip you to the Honey Farm you took in third grade? You had no idea how close to death you might have been. Dating can be like that.
I’ve never been limerent for someone I was dating, only for people I couldn’t have.
The first was an ex girlfriend, who I broke up with, I then realised what I’d lost, and became deeply limerent for her. We tried to be friends, and all I wanted was her back but she’d moved on. It took me many years to get over her, and she loomed large in my subsequent realtionships as the impossible comparison.
Then fast forward 20 years and I have my second LE. My LO born the year I split up with the ex! In between I’d been with my wife for 14 years (10 of marriage), had a 2.5yr relationship, a few brief romances (including with a married woman), a friend with benefits situation, and a few one night stands. Wasn’t limerent for any of them. 🤷♂️
When you say years… how many years exactly did it take for you to stop obsessing about her, Vincent? I am going on 11 months and it’s slowly killing me mentally. I’m exhausted from overanalyzing, online stalking and still keeping the hope alive that he’ll miraculously come back to say “I’ve changed my mind, I actually do want to date you.”
I met my LO 8 years ago. I have been NC for 7 years. This morning, I daydreamed on my couch for about an hour, having a pretend conversation with them, as if we’d bumped into each other sometime after the pandemic is less of a threat. This is a standard daydream for me. This used to happen daily, now the daydreams happen less frequently, but they still happen. I tell myself that I encourage them because they help me write my stories, and they relax me and give me a sensation of being high. Something about imagining her voice and how she would respond in given situations are wonderful inspirations for writing intriguing, sympathetic, realistic characters in a romance that has a happy ending.
Ha. This resonates oj many levels as I’ve had many many conversations in my head regarding my LO.
Hi LW
So you don’t have any desire to stop the daydreams? You are ok if they never go away, in fact you encourage them? That’s quite interesting.
I am such a chronic lifelong daydreamer…. but I feel if I am to ever be truly healthy I need to stop the “when I run into LO what exactly should I say?” daydreams.
But we are all different. 🙂
Hey Jaideux, how did you stop the daydreams after No contact. Not ther persistent forced thoughts at the height of limerence. But the daydreams after that. They are so attractive to go back too. Just a thought away.
Huh. I read the linked article about finding a good match and wondered about people who are selectively limerent. My husband was not limerent for me but limerent before me (twice) and 18 years after meeting me (once, so far–gulp). Wondering about this idea of a limerent being a fixed identity (as opposed to a condition that some might be prone to under certain circumstances). If it’s really the only way certain people can fall in love, then what does that mean for my mostly happy marriage? Doomed? Or, in Winston’s case, is limerence for some a greener-grass scenario that almost can’t exist absent insurmountable obstacles?
Oops, Vincent. My bad.
I have had 5 serious LEs over my lifetime. I have had two relationships that started with me in full-on limerence mode, and several relationships without the full-on limerence, where I fell in love gradually and normally. The strength of my LE’s bore no correlation with the depth of my feelings over time, how long the relationships lasted or how satisfying the sex was over time. So for me, an LE is definitely not the only way a limerent can fall in love, is no predictor for relationship happiness and success and as you say, does need the uncertainty or barriers to develop.
I personally think that limerence and lasting love are only loosely correlated for most of us, and that being limerent for someone is basically no predictor of whether a long-term relationship will survive.
So, no, I definitely don’t think your marriage is doomed by selective limerence, Sad Mouse 🙂
There’s a case study post that goes into more detail here.
I agree with Dr L here based on my experiences. I would say I’m generally limerent for anyone who I would date and get physical with etc (typically involving at least 10 conversations and observing the person over time to allow me to mentally decide I like them). But unrequited feelings or uncertainty has ALWAYS intensified my feelings for another 100%. When I’ve had a very reassuring partner who reciprocates everything and behaves in exemplary ways, it somehow lessens the passion due to the lack of mystery and novelty (which I think is inevitable). I would estimate having been limerent about 5 times in my life and all of them were for people with eyes I particularly like and a high degree of mystery and intelligence. I feel like these could be things which could be a predictor of how long I remain with a partner over time.
#9 hit me haaard!! As an almost middle aged woman I met a man who at 41 proclaimed from the time we met that he wasn’t ready “to settle down yet.” Also, he’s never been married and no children. Not necessarily a red flag yet but a year into hooking up with him, I’ve finally asked if this was going to progress to something serious and he responded with “I thought we were on the same page about this.” It left me devastated and there are days I feel I’ll never recover. It’s been a year of pure grief, can’t date or even look at another man, meanwhile years of my prime are quickly passing by. So statistically, I may have 2 more years left of this agony? Kill me now.
“When people tell you who they are, believe them.”- Maya Angelou
Anx Soul, my gut is telling me you need to cut this one loose and make away with the dignity you have left. This person isn’t really interested and/or isn’t who and what you need/want them to be. Either way, sorry to break it to you, but its likely to hurt, you will constantly look back and wonder about them, but don’t wonder, this ones not for you, if they was they would be with you. I know it sounds harsh, but the facts are the facts and knowing that this persons actions are contradicting and undermining your feelings should pull you back down to earth and let you know all you need to know. Wishing you absolutely all the best luck with it.
Yeah, that’s the trap for limerents. Even if you’re basically OK with the “let’s keep it casual” at the outset, once the limerence builds, you get well and truly hooked. And then no-one else has a hope in hell, as all you want is LO.
Meanwhile, your continued dalliance with someone who is never going to commit just prolongs the limerence and makes it harder to break away. And worst of all, they were honest about their plans from the beginning…
He’s proposing “friendship” without sex. I’m dying to agree just so I can get more intel from him (the elusive closure?) Is this the bargaining stage of grief for me?
And of course, there’s more but being new to this site, not sure how much I’m suppose to share.. there was an accidental pregnancy and he doesn’t know about it. Do I tell him now that he rejected me as a dating partner? Tbh, I am strangely more concerned how I would be perceived by him than sharing the actual info. I’m curious what the men on here think. It’s such a moral dilemma.
It definitely is a moral dilemma.
Here’s my immediate gut-feeling response: you were casually dating, he made it clear he didn’t want anything more serious, and it was an accident. It seems very unlikely that he would have reacted positively to the news (but there is always a shadow of doubt, of course).
At this stage, there seems little to be gained by telling him, and given that it is after he has already ended your sexual relationship, he might even doubt the truth of it (if he thinks you are trying to manipulate him).
I’m sorry for you Anxious_Soul. A really difficult dilemma with lots of regrets all round.
My instinct is to fully detach, give up on the false hope of friendship, and start focusing on a future without him…
Are you pregnant now?
No, not pregnant anymore.
“No, not pregnant anymore.”
In my opinion, you forfeited telling him. You could have told him that you were pregnant but you didn’t. Why tell him now?
You have no idea how he’ll respond to the idea that he may have been a father. He may not have wanted to be a husband but maybe he wanted to be a father, or came to that conclusion once he knew. You’ll never know because you didn’t tell him. If he cared, all you leave him is doubt and regret.
One question is likely to be, “How did the pregnancy end?” That could take you down a very uncomfortable path. Having been through two pregnancy scares but no actual pregnancies, I can only speculate what my reaction might be.
For me, if the woman unilaterally voluntarily terminated my child and told me afterward, what I’d feel for her would be beyond resentment and it would last forever.
You asked what the men would think. You have my thoughts.
My (candid) thoughts as a man too: I would rather have been told at the time and involved in the decision, but I would not resent it if a woman I had accidentally impregnated made a unilateral choice to terminate. I would probably be relieved.
“I would rather have been told at the time and involved in the decision, but I would not resent it if a woman I had accidentally impregnated made a unilateral choice to terminate. I would probably be relieved.”
Maybe, maybe not.
Just because you make someone’s life easier, don’t expect them to appreciate you for it.
When my mother OD’d on pills and alcohol when I was 18, she made my life a whole lot easier. As her only child, by checking herself out, she allowed me to pursue my life free of the burden of taking care of an unemployed, middle-aged alcoholic who’d taken off on me. When she died, I didn’t mourn her, I felt relieved because I no longer had reason to resent her. But, I’m not grateful to her for what she did. Had she not done what she did, I’m pretty sure I would have fulfilled my obligation and resented every minute of it.
My father fought for me and I think I’d fight for any child of mine, accidental or not.
I was speaking for myself, and I would have appreciated it. I would do anything for my kids, but they were planned and wanted by both parents.
I have a couple of friends who were raised by a loving mother but had an absent (resentful) father. The lifetime of paternal rejection has not been easy for them to cope with.
There’s downsides to every decision in this sort of scenario.
One year for Mother’s Day, I gave LO #2 a Thank You card. She asked why.
“For not making me a father.”
She wasn’t amused.
Anx Soul, I have a different take: honesty is the shorter (and usually more painful) route to the same place. Its like ripping off a plaster quickly. If you tell him, I think it will cement things in his mind. He will realise how close he came to making a big mistake which could potentially have made the lives of 3 people extremely hard for decades, and then I think he would cut contact (the best thing for you in my opinion). You are hung up on him, and he clearly does not reciprocate. He has moved on. Telling him could help you in a way you haven’t considered, it will put a stop to it all, so do tell him, because honesty will hopefully fast track you to a better place, even if its a painful journey. You deserve better, and I don’t mean to be harsh, but you are hanging on because you hoping things might change, they won’t. In real life, hope can be harmful, and this is one such case. Getting pregnant is pretty much as serious as it gets in these sorts of ventures, what you have already been through should be the alarm bell of all alarm bells. Forget this person, it’s not going anywhere but to bad places. Wishing you the best.
As a “Friend With Benefits,” LO #2 was outstanding! As a girlfriend, she was pretty good. As an ex trying to keep me as Plan B, she stunk. As the relationship progressed, her performance declined. The therapist said the closer I got, the more anxious she got to the point of moving across the country to distance herself from me.
Once we got past the “If I don’t sleep with you is that the end of the friendship?” question, I thought we’d likely keep seeing each other until one of us got a better offer. Our FWB thing was going along pretty well until the Oxytocin kicked in and I wanted something more. LO #2 didn’t up the ante, I did. I fell in love with her. I got to the point where I was either going to invest in her or it was time to end things.
He said he doesn’t want kids so he would be relived. I guess I’m trying to elicit some sympathy from him. It seems unfair he left me with such emotional trauma.
This is why God invented therapists. What you experienced is very traumatic, appears to have multiple threads, and the person you want help the most from is very unlikely to give it to you. Do you have a support system?
It’s your stages of grief, not his. Consider that his offer of friendship without sex is based on his not knowing about the pregnancy. Trying to manage that secret alone will be enough to send your anxiety through the roof let alone all the other things you must be feeling. It’s going to take time to sort through all this. It would be better doing it with someone who knew how to help you. Some stages of grief are better than others to transit.
This place is great but it’s not a replacement for professional help. Sometimes, you have to call in the pros. This may be one of them. If you see someone, print out what you wrote here and show it to the therapist. Maybe highlight the things in it that you think are most important.
It’s great you have the self-awareness to see that as the underlying motive. That part of your mind that can see clearly will also probably tell you that it wouldn’t work as a tactic. He is more likely to be confused, upset, angry, and worried than sympathetic.
The sympathy may come after he has had time to process the information, but his immediate response may well cause more pain for you.
And fundamentally that’s the big problem: you are trying to get LO to cure your emotional pain, when it is actually an internal battle for you to face. If anything, he is actually a source of pain, not a solution.
I’m so sorry for your loss and your pain- and the loneliness that you’re feeling. My heart is breaking for you.
Thank you. My own therapist saw how it kept swallowing me whole and advised I tell for its sake. So I did yesterday. Felt immediate sense of relief afterward but a day later a new onset of obsessions came on… maybe I should have said it this way or that way, wonder what he thinks of me now, etc. By the way, how do I make sure I receive notifications when someone responds to my comments? Or even a new blog notification. I’ve put in my email address here but nothing in terms of notifocations.
How did he take the news?
As for replaying the events in your head, it seems to be part of the process. Almost 5 years since our goodbye, I can still almost quote her goodbye and my response verbatim.
But, now it’s “It got the job done and what difference would it have made if I’d said it differently? Would it get her to care? Would it get to remember me and question her decision? Would it have kept her in the game?”
Probably not and it’s better she didn’t.
It isn’t automatic, A_S, you’d need a feed reader that picks up the comments feed. Failing that, there’s a latest comments widget on the home page.
Blog posts are easier to predict – every Saturday morning at 9 am. Maybe I should vary it on an intermittent reward schedule 🙂
Well, I created a post on my Facebook page today using quotes from this post. Eight hours later and not a single like or comment: harsh realities I guess. But here it is:
Quote/s of the day
The factors that cause [attraction] are rarely aligned neatly with simple physical beauty. They are born of that weird alchemy of our life histories, our genetics, our bonding experiences during childhood, the role models that were around in our youth, and the previous romantic experiences – good and bad – that we’ve had in our lives.
A bad experience in youth can have a very formative impact: a mean-spirited parent, a jealous friend, a harsh rejection by a crush, these sleights can imprint a deep insecurity about our own appeal to others.
The clumsy love-bombers are easy to spot, but the artisans will make you believe they are just as befuddled by the shocking urgency of their feelings as you are.
That’s the thing about experience – you get it just after you need it.
Dr. Limerence
(and I pasted the Danger sign image down here)
I thought it was a good post — isn’t it?
I think it’s excellent, James 🙂
Maybe it’s unpopular because I misspelled “slights”.
More seriously, limerence is a very sensitive personal issue, so people may be reluctant to like or comment because it exposes them…?
His response was very cut and dry, not much emotion (he’s an engineer, not sure if on the spectrum but doesn’t seem to show much emotion in person either. I mean, not socially awkward but reserved)… so the response basically was “I am so sorry you went through that, I sympathize and wish there were something I could do more for you…” the last part killed me! Why not ask WHAT he can do before saying there’s nothing. The kicker? He invited me out for “drinks or something” once covid restrictions lift and even offered a to attend a concert together in a few months! … which is perplexing to say the least. WHY? What could he possibly gain from meeting up? I don’t think he’s the type to talk about it or want to know details. I actually expected him fully to cut me off entirely, as someone on here already suggested. I don’t think it’s guilt driven either because as I’ve said earlier, he’s very rational and black and white, very engineer like and no offense to any of them but I think the left brainer types just don’t have the ability to feel on the full scale. I haven’t responded to the invite yet because I’m not sure how to. I probably should before a week passes, out of politeness, if anything.
The cynic in me says maybe he wants to keep you on the string.
Then, again, if he’s really the kind of engineer you describe, the significance of your experience could be completely beyond him. Hard to believe but true. You two were on different pages and he doesn’t think like you do.
I’m an engineer by degree. We often live in a very literal world. It took a marriage counselor to get me to understand that the question “Do you want coffee?” could be more than a “yes” or “no” question. Pregnancy is often an unintended consequence of sex. It could easily be that in his mind, you rolled the dice and you lost. It happened, it’s over, “let’s have a drink.” It’s insensitive at best but what you went through could truly escape him. He might just not get it.
Which raises the question of why would you want to spend time with him? He’s demonstrated his level of concern and it isn’t much. He could just be wired in such a way that he’ll never respond to you the way you’d like him to. If that’s true, nothing you can do will change that. It took me a long time to learn that lesson.
If someone doesn’t appreciate you and reciprocates your affection, get rid of them and find someone who does.
It does read as though he is someone who doesn’t really understand how to relate to what you’ve gone through, and is therefore unaware that “maybe we should go for drinks or something” has a much deeper context for you. He might just be saying it out of politeness. Or not be sure about the etiquette of responding to your declaration, so feels he should demonstrate that he doesn’t want to stop being friends with you.
If you do suspect he has a fundamentally different emotional landscape to you, it will drive you mad trying to divine meaning out of his behaviour.
It’ll also keep you ruminating…
Actually, I appreciated his response. I think many of us limerents are analytical at heart or we would not be so bothered by uncertainty. I likely lost my last LO because I was too “logical” when I disclosed in a text; for example, I said “I have liked you the whole time, but there is no reason to freak, because my behavior tomorrow will be no different than it was yesterday.” This was to someone I was already smitten by BEFORE she became my immediate supervisor. And I should add that she seemed just as smitten at first as I was.
Sharnhorst, why would I want to spend time with him? To try to get the answers to the questions you’ve just raised.. is there any ability on his part to “comprehend?” my trauma? The only way to know is in person. Text is tone deaf and in person you could observe one’s body language, facial expressions, etc. Could it help to realize that this person cannot feel what I feel nor can fully empathize with me? That’s the question but could it be closure as well? I appreciate your input. Yes, engineers are a special breed. On one hand, I’m really envious how they compartmentalize emotions. Albeit, it leaves me super frustrated. Actually, how are you an engineer and a limerant at the same time? Can’t you just think your way out of it? Serious question, no sarcasm.
“Actually, how are you an engineer and a limerant at the same time? Can’t you just think your way out of it? Serious question, no sarcasm.”
I’ll try to answer that. It may be a little long and rambling.
First question: I never wanted to be an engineer. I wanted to be in the Navy. I won the Social Studies award in HS. I love psychology, history, political science, sociology, and law. My father was an engineer but he made his living in technical sales. He said being an engineer will teach you how to think and if you’re an engineer, you can learn anything. I struggled through engineering school with a 2.7 GPA. If you just took my social humanistic/business electives, my GPA was like 3.8. Chemistry and thermodynamics are cognitive black holes for me. I wrote English papers for a guy in return for his doing my physics and calc homework. I have an engineering degree but I’m not a good engineer. I understand black and white but I see a whole lot of gray.
Second question: I don’t know if it relates to my engineering education but I have a really good understanding of cause and effect and “if/then.” You can apply logic to relationships just as easily as you can to other areas of life.
If I had been important to LO #2, then she would have married me. If I was important to LO #2, then she wouldn’t have admitted she wanted to look around some more and if she didn’t find anything she liked better, she might come back and settle for me. The “if/then” game can teach you a lot.
But, understanding cause and effect is huge. From what I’ve observed, and it’s only my opinion, co-dependents and limerents have a bad habit of reversing those. If you’re a rescuer or a fixer, you operate under the assumption that someone is the way they are because of the relationships they have or their environment. If you show them that you’re not like the others and change the environment, they’ll come around and things will be great. All you have to do is explain it to them and be a little patient. LO #2 had an affinity for cheaters. They defined her world view. All I had to do is show her that I wasn’t like the others and she’d come around. I was very naive.
I got it straight and realized LO #2 wasn’t who she was because of the relationships she had, she had the relationships she had because of she was. Once that happened, a lot of things began to make sense.
Can you think your way out of it? Not entirely. It doesn’t do a lot for the pain initially. But, it helps you get to the point where you realize you did everything you could. You took the shot. That’s what helps with the pain.
Does that answer some of your questions?
Yes, it answers a lot and I thank you for your generous input. I’m definitely a fixer. I’ve been told I have a high EQ and once my LO told me his 70+ yo mother was a hoarder and he was still looking “for the one” at 42 albeit wasn’t entirely keen on committing to any of his previous partners, I was in! I also minored in psych and almost became a social worker. I have a lot of empathy for people, especially the ones that display childhood wounds. My LO was vulnerable enough to let me in just enough that I could sense “undefined” issues but again, I accepted the challenge. Here’s the interesting part.. the sex was meh. Fairly robotic and lacking affection. Once again, I needed to fix that too. Never succeeded. But the important part for me was that I thought we were emotionally connecting through common interests and great conversations. I thought mutual physical attraction was never questioned. We couldn’t get our hands off each other. Alas, when I was told he was still looking “for the one”, I was shattered and utterly confused. Throw in the pregnancy part plus ultimate proposal of friendship… Here’s where I stand as of right now: my limerance is reaching on 3.5 years and I’m very concerned. Shouldn’t this be over by now statistically? My consideration for another meeting purely stems from a place of curiosity. Why
would he propose a friendship to someone whom he doesn’t find worthy of dating? He bought tix to a concert!, for fuck’s sake. Anyway, here’s what I really struggle with: HOW to respond to his invite to “do drinks or something.” Don’t laugh but I feel semi inclined to steal your lines here and write back ” so you think this is simple a case of I rolled a dice and lost. Let’s get drinks means let’s forget about your trauma?” I think it’s harsh but I kinda like it. My friend thinks I should instead respond with “sure, when?” And if I don’t receive an answer, it’s closure. Thoughts?
I forgot to add, for an engineer, you have a ton of self awareness. I dig that.
And this is the whole problem, we are trying to figure out what to make of a bunch of isolated, contradicting details with only what we are given. It is just as difficult to convey to someone else what you are perceiving as it is for them to “feel” what you are feeling. When I explain what happened to me, I often need to add that “Had you been a mouse in my pocket and witnessed what I witnessed for yourself, you wouldn’t be questioning my perceptions.” In my experience, every LE has been like trying to solve a 3,000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only a handful of the pieces, without even being certain that “any of ‘those'” pieces even go to the puzzle I am trying to solve! Emotion is no help in such a situation.
“Thoughts?”
Another ramble…
“Perhaps the most tragic part of this issue, is that core-wounded individuals unwittingly seek lovers who are no more equipped to respond to their needs, than their unavailable parent was! They continue to embrace the notion that they’ll one day find someone who excites them, and whom they can train or teach to love them in ways they’ve always wanted–but this is a child’s fantasy that will never be realized.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ I love Schreiber’s articles.
Sound familiar? $20 says he’ll never find her or if he does, he’s settled. He’s made it pretty clear you’re not her.
“Here’s where I stand as of right now: my limerance is reaching on 3.5 years and I’m very concerned. Shouldn’t this be over by now statistically? ”
Going all engineer on you, this isn’t radioactive decay we’re talking about. Limerence doesn’t have a half-life. If it did, you could just wait it out. We all could.
Another dirty little secret, this isn’t about them, it’s about us. As long as we make it about them, it will never go away. Focus on yourself, your happiness, and why you were attracted to the guy. Is this a pattern? Have you ever had a good relationship or have they all been disappointments? When I met my wife I didn’t know what a good relationship was but after 5 years with LO #2, I had a pretty good idea of what a good relationship wasn’t. It was the way my wife didn’t make me feel that told me she’s different than LO #2.
The part about his mother being a hoarder is hilarious. I was never allowed into LO #2’s parents house. She let me in one time when she knew they weren’t home. The place was a real sty. Her father was an airline pilot for a major airline and after seeing that place, I knew why he liked staying in hotels, eating in restaurants, and sleeping with another woman. I wouldn’t want to come home to that either. Where’s his father? Just out of curiosity, is he passive-aggressive?
You could accept his offer and try to pin him down but you won’t get any real satisfaction from him. He told you he didn’t think you two were on the same page. Listen to him! He probably doesn’t have a clue as to why he is the way he is. In his engineer mind, he’s answered your question. What else do you need to know? He’s not into committed relationships and he still gets laid on a regular basis. What are you offering that would incentive him to change that after all this time? It works for him! There appear to be plenty of woman willing to meet him on his terms. He doesn’t want to be rescued or fixed. Trying to save someone who doesn’t want to be saved can get really old unless you enjoy futility, in which case they can offer an endless supply.
Don’t let him control your happiness. People can contribute to your happiness or they can detract from it but it’s your happiness. The first two years I was with LO #2, I was happier than I’d been in my entire life before meeting her. Cutting her loose was the hardest thing I ever did and it hurt more than losing my parents but she had to go.
This can be a great opportunity to learn something about yourself that will make your life better. Nothing you learn about him will likely make your life better. H I hung in with LO #2 for two years because she showed enough apparent self-awareness to think she might come around. I was wrong. Your LO doesn’t even offer you that.
He has nothing to offer you.
Read that again.
AS, I have to completely agree with Scharnhorst once again. Closure is an illusion (blog title on this site, very good one) and you deserve better than being rejected over and over again. A meeting will ultimately not answer the questions you have, and will turn into another rejection. You seem like a kind and empathetic person and deserve to be cherished and appreciated and understood and valued for those beautiful qualities. I am speaking from experience when I say that many LO’s seem to be missing the empathy chip, if they had it they would have never knowingly let us pine for as long as most of us did (or are). A relationship with a person who doesn’t have empathy is inevitably going to lead to great frustration and even great damage to our self esteem. It’s easier said than done (by a long shot) but being determined to move on is the road to freedom and true closure….the closure we give ourselves.
His father is a mystery. But he’s also an engineer so I can do some distant guessing as to his personality. According to my brief online research, he’s just old, retired and posts many political views on social media. So a dead end. Sister never married, no kids, seems content with her life. What makes you think he’ll never find the one? Because he’s a middle aged man who hasn’t come close to settling down? I gotta give him some credit for an ounce of self awareness. Early in our “not a real relationship”, he admitted he’s aware he’ll never find the perfect person. I remember calling him out on the word perfect but he shrugged it off. No idea if this is relevant but out of his two exes he talked about, one struggled with depression and severe mood swings (but he stuck it out for a few years, so he must have some compassion?), the other wanted kids and he didn’t so she dumped him. I will screenshot your response and will hold on to it for a while. I hope the part about how to find happiness within myself will sink in one day.
” No idea if this is relevant but out of his two exes he talked about, one struggled with depression and severe mood swings (but he stuck it out for a few years, so he must have some compassion?), the other wanted kids and he didn’t so she dumped him. ”
Compassion..? Probably not. Think about this. What other woman in his life might be struggling with depression and mood swings? Did you ever meet his mother? For one thing, how do you know anything he’s telling you is actually true? That woman sang to him. He could deal with her in his sleep. Kudos to the other one. She assessed his potential to give her what she wanted, decided she wasn’t going to get it from him, and moved on.
Why don’t I think he’ll ever find “the one?” For him, it’s not about actually finding the grail, it’s all about the quest. He can say he’s been searching the whole time. Fate was unkind to him. Has he ever said anything good about any of his previous relationships? I don’t know if LO #4 will ever find “the one.” She hits 50 in the fall. She spent 7 years with her last narc and he was at least #2. I read a post where she called him “the perfect compliment to my life.” 7 years later she was crying on my shoulder claiming he was cheating on her and had assaulted her.
So, what is it about your LO that’s so appealing? And, why is it your God-given mission to save him from himself when he appears to like things as they are? He has as much right to his vision of happiness as anyone else does. What’s in this for you? Can you honestly see spending your life with this guy? Would you want him to be the father of your child? Can you see yourself taking your kid to their alleged hoarder grandmother’s house? “Now that our tetanus shots are up to date, we can visit grandma!” Can you imagine him and his family at Thanksgiving and Christmas? Do you think he’d really be there if you needed him?
Ouch. So much to digest here. What I meant is.. if his ex of several years was struggling with depression and he still loved her, he can’t be so bad. Okay, he did say her mood swings finally got to him and “they grew apart.”
What do I find so appealing? Maybe appealing wouldn’t ne the word I’d use but Iam and I truly don’t mean to come across superficial and I say it humbly but besides his qualities that I find attractive like his linear thinking and engineering mind seem like the ying to my yang as I am the opposite. Furthermore, he is not very attractive universally speaking, not a classically handsome man and I am a very attractive woman with so much to offer. Well traveled, well read, put together, sophisticated, kind and just a tad quirky to make me interesting… so how fucking dare he reject me?? Yes, ego trip perhaps. As far as the stories he’s told… you are absolutely correct- they may not be true. That’s why my latest albeit super crazy idea is to contact one of his exes’ once covid lifts. Just for fact verification. I picked one of them that he completely lost touch with and she dumped him because (and get this, he admitted this much) she could sense something was “off” with him. This was her analysis a couple of months into dating. That woman has been on my mind for a while! I’m also a great detective so all I needed is her one image to google reverse image to get her identity. But don’t worry, I may not even pull a trigger on this. I’m giving myself until the end of the summer to think about it and strategize how to do it in the most sensible way so I don’t look unhinged. Maybe even anonymously is possibility. I’ll probably post on this soon. My ocd hooked into this for now and it’s almost a distraction of sort.
Article of the Day: https://thoughtcatalog.com/lacey-ramburger/2020/06/if-they-wanted-to-be-in-your-life-they-would-be/
The title says it all.
This is so true Scharnhorst. Reading the article (which wasn’t written specifically about dating), the problem I see these days is that people think connecting and keeping in touch via social media still counts as being in someone’s life. Liking someone’s posts on social media is what passes for a social life for so many people nowadays. I predict that the pandemic will make cocooning and social isolation even worse moving forward (even once the pandemic is over). Still, I get what you are saying regarding the world of dating and how this article relates to limerence. Often it is a fantasy in our heads in terms of our LOs and whether they really want us in their lives (often the answer is “no” and we need to be able to accept that).
The flip side to that coin is coming to the realization that you don’t really have a place in your life for your LO. LO is a title, not a position.
LO #4 and I were getting along just fine until her life went south, she intruded into mine, and unwittingly activated a dormant vulnerability I had. She wasn’t trying to cause trouble.
I sent him an email last night asking him to explain to me the new parameters of our friendship he’s proposing (remember he already invited me for drinks “or something” and bought concert tickets. He went radio silence on me. Time to walk away with what’s left of my dignity.
Oh shit, forgot one major thing . My email was very polite and brief but after I sent it I responded to his last text from a few days ago in which he states “wish there were more I could do for your grief” (the pregnancy news, still invited me to drinks in the same text)… my response was and please be amused here, Sharnhorst because it’s fucked up.. I stole your line from one of your responses to me from earlier and wrote back “oh, so are you saying, you’ve rolled the dice and lost. It’s done and let’s get drinks instead?” Hours later it after sending it, it hit my limerant overthinking brain that my response could have been too passive aggressive so I apologized and added, “sorry, that was unnecessary sarcasm.” Then added, I’m just confused and hurt. Yes, I’d like drinks sometime this summer.”
Guess what happened today? I woke up, and realized I may have killed it on my own. If he’s offended or annoyed, he will never respond now so I may subconsciously started official NC. He may not have read the email yet or maybe it will end up in his spam or whatever but part of me feels slightly relived. I know I will not reach out again because that would be stripping myself of any leftover dignity in which case, if I never hear from him again, it’s done.
“I know I will not reach out again because that would be stripping myself of any leftover dignity in which case, if I never hear from him again, it’s done.”
You have a week, 10 days tops. You’ve entered the “Regret – Explain – Apologize Cycle.” If he doesn’t respond in a day or two, you’ll start wondering how you’ll get back in his good graces. It will gnaw the crap out of you, like the Alien. At some point, the regret will overwhelm you and you’ll send off another explanation/apology. And, the cycle begins again. But, that’s just how it worked for me. The hole just gets deeper and wider.
Actually, you don’t know that he won’t reappear. LOs have a real bad habit of appearing when you least want them to. LO #2 sent me a FB request 25 years after we said goodbye. LO #4 came out of the woodwork at 3 months and then the crap really hit the fan. But, you want him to reappear. As for dignity, you’ll have as much as he chooses to give you. He has your number. Heaven help you if he knows what he’s doing and he tilts toward the malicious side. At the hands of a Narc, or worse, you could be in for an even more interesting ride.
“Yes, I’d like drinks sometime this summer.”
You ceded power and bared your throat. No matter what happens, he’ll never see you as his equal.
Sharnhorst, I will NOT be sending him another anything. But you are correct, I have no dignity left to speak of and he knows it. That’s why I will not be reaching out. I feel so embarassed and ashamed. So much ego boost for this unattractive (not to me, lol), short, nerdy and spectrumy engineer. He got what he got from me and it must feel damn good to him. I don’t think he’s a narc tho. I peg him as an avoidant and indifferent unless he really wants something along the lines of instant gratification (he pursued me for the first 3 months much to my reluctance as I didn’t initially find him all that attractive. The limerance kicked into full gear after a year of knowing him and as by then I was chasing him so he backed off. I’ve been on unequal footing with him ever since. But I certainly have wasted 3 fucking years of my life that I will never get back.
One of your LO’s reached out after 25 years? That’s special. Why? Lucky for me, my LO doesn’t have a tendency to reappear. We’ve gone several months without communication in the past and I have always been the one to initiate contact. Like I said, I think I’ve finally killed the bear after years of poking by sending the last text. I’m surprised you haven’t commented on the part that I actually used your words in it. I think the passive aggressive stance I took has offended him and he’s done. I sense it.
Why do they reappear anyway? Is there a post about this? Like I said, I should count myself as lucky one in this regard. LO is too passive,beta, indifferent, not interested, lazy, non confrontational, perhaps too image conscious to boot to seek me out in the future. Will I be posting about it for a while. You bet.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/07/06/when-los-return/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/08/07/when-los-return-part-two/
Spectrumy!!
Briljant!
Wish we could post a pic of ourselves and than our LOS it must be hilarious.
I’m married and she’s married too. We’re both in our late 40s. She told me that she had been limerent for me for about 6 months and I had no idea and my indifference towards her drove her crazy. One day, while it was raining, we stood under her umbrella and expressed our feelings. The relationship took off real quick and each time was ecstatic. We are addicted to each other and constantly act with secrecy out of fear. I had no idea what limerence was and I realized that all the boxes are ticked. So the thing is that the euphoria never ends neither the guilt is, nor the jealousy we feel about one another as we have to perform our marital duties to our spouses. And this to my opinion is the worst kind of hell we have inflicted upon ourselves. The fact that we have to tolerate that the love of our life sleeps with the legal partner. I don’t know where this will lead to. I can’t back off either.
Hi Nikos. Welcome to the site (assuming you have not posted before?)
What stops you (and your LO) from ending your marriages so you can be together? From your description, it sounds like that is what you really want.
I am also married, late 40s with a married LO, and although nothing has ever happened between us, given the right scenario I’m pretty sure I would be unable to resist temptation. And I must admit that your description actually makes me a bit envious! Oh….but the lies, the guilt and most of all, the chance of being found out and damaging everyone I dearly love….maybe beyond repair….yikes!
There is some great material on this site – read it. You may even start to question your belief that she is the “love of your life”. The real love of your life is someone who supports you through all of life’s challenges no matter what. Someone that will sacrifice their life to care for you if you became seriously ill and incapacitated. Someone whom you still love and still loves you once the limerence fully wears off. Which it always does.
Wishing you the strength and wisdom to resolve this.
Thanks for your reply. Indeed this is my first time posting here. What’s stopping us from being together? First of all, kids. We both have kids. Secondly, there has been an incident a couple of months ago. Her husband caught her erasing my messages and suspected that something is going on. Ever since, he started doing things like laying on the floor pretending to be unconscious, feeling dizzy and acting like he’s gonna jump off the balcony and things like that. At the same time he is love bombarding her because he wants to save their marriage. So the guilt we both feel is unbearable. On the other hand we can’t imagine ourselves being apart. I mentioned before about “love of my life” because I have never felt this way before. The way she looks at me, the way she touches me.. Not once in all the years I’ve been married have I experienced those feelings. We both felt unloved and underappreciated in our marriages. And the affair happened. I have never had an affair before. My life didn’t revolve in finding a woman to just have sex with. But there’s something about her that started a fire I cannot put out.
The sad thing is this might be a wonderful situation if you were both single. But would you have developed limerent feelings for each other without the “obstacle to consummation” of both having partners already? Does the “forbidden” nature of limerence make it pleasurable and fuel the yearning?
Hi Nikos, and welcome.
The philosophy here at LwL is that the way to manage limerence is to integrate it into your life in a healthy way. And the secret to that is to live with purpose.
By definition, an affair is not a purposeful choice. You are living a life of deceit, inauthenticity, and are trying to keep two parallel lives going out of fear for the consequences of what you will lose when the betrayals are exposed. All that’s keeping you going is the narcotic thrill of limerence.
You have to make a choice. You’ve crossed the rubicon of starting a physical affair, and so the damage is done. Your only option now is to mitigate the scale of the damage – and by the sounds of how your LO’s husband is reacting, that scale is going to be significant whatever happens. Alternatively, you could try the strategy of lying to your families and friends forever in the hope that your illicit secret isn’t discovered.
Sorry for the cold shower, but I’m all about frankness 🙂
It is possible to manage limerence, but it does require a purposeful attitude – the decision to take control of your life, be honest with yourself and others, and the willingness to make sacrifices to build that better and more authentic life.
Step one: decide between your family and your mistress…
The “forbidden” nature of what we have may be working for her, but not for me. I am not an adolescent who seeks thrill in doing illegal things anymore. In fact it pisses me off that we are not single. That we can’t hold hands and walk in the open like a real couple. The funny thing is that she confessed to me that she had been fantasizing about me long before the affair. I didn’t have a clue. I was totally indifferent to her. At one point I had a quarrel with her. (She is a coworker). And one day it just happened. It started as a game to me, maybe an opportunity to boost my ego,and things escalated rapidly into infatuation. It also took us a long time to make love to each other, about 8 months or so. She was very reluctant. But in the meantime we had been connecting emotionally so much, that when the time came to connect physically, the whole was sealed.
Welcome Nikos!
This is a really good video about the difference between love and limerence, and it is by a man who ended up having a PA with his LO and leaving his wife for his mistress. I think he does a great job of explaining the, very predictable, progression of a limerent affair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e-gKUh1Upo
I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term cognitive dissonance, but it is that tension between what we purport to believe and the actions that we’re taking. We all have beliefs about right and wrong, and when we say we believe “A” but are actually doing “B” we have to find a way of justifying it or we go crazy. As most people intrinsically believe that affairs are wrong (as I assume you would if you’re wife was sleeping with someone else whom she thought herself madly in love with) it makes sense that the people doing it- having the affair- would have to find a way to make it understandable and defensible. It’s just that it can’t work forever, and at some point, as DrL says, you have to choose. From the outside looking in, affairs are always wrong and immature and unromantic. From the inside, I know they can feel unique and romantic and singular. But they always lead to destruction.
I wish you the very best as you struggle with this. This is a wonderful resource for all of us who suffer with limerence.
Thank you for the reply and for helping me understand what “cognitive dissonance” means. You are so right. This is exactly what is happening. I have also watched the video in your post along with some other videos from this guy and everything is true. The truth is that this bliss I feel with her lasts so little and the guilt afterwards is killing me inside. I need to find a way to end it for the sake of her mostly. I know that she may believe that I stopped loving her but the truth is that I love her too much to turn her life into hell if anyone finds out about us. For me? I cannot live with the idea that I am hurting someone (my wife, her husband), someone who has no idea and has never hurt me. I need to find the strength to end it.
Right on for all of these. I have been limerent for a narcissist and a married man. Both will shred you. The first will be brutal because the uncertainty that comes from the hold/cold dynamic will intensify your limerence to sky-high levels and it will be difficult to extricate yourself even when you know what you are doing. The second one will indeed twist and bend and warp your principles until you’ve engaged in a shocking degree of self-compromise, but then again, I am learning that many people do not have such scruples to begin with.
The whole notion of having found a reluctant person who can be brought into a relationship sucks me in every time and I’ve put up with a lot of bad treatment after becoming limerent for such individuals. At this point in my life I’m ceasing to find it romantic or charming. The persecution complex can also be an indicator of narcissism, because it shows that they externalize all of their life problems by attributing the consequences of their actions to other people.
At this stage, I think the safest bet is to just not date.