An interesting question that often comes up in discussions about limerence, is the potential for overlap with other personality traits. Perhaps, given the intrusive thoughts and obsessive nature of limerent reverie, the obvious intersection is with OCD. There also seems a common element with stress heightening the conditions; as though the brain is seeking relief from stress through learned mental patterns – either limerent reverie or compulsive thoughts or rituals.
I’ve often wondered if there is an overlap with introversion too – given that one way of defining the difference between introverts and extroverts is whether the internal or external world seems most “real” to them. As LOs exist mainly in the internal world of the limerent’s imagination, it seems likely that introverts would feel the pull of reverie more powerfully and meaningfully. Yet another possibility is high sensitivity: the concept that some people have more active autonomic nervous systems than others, and so find many stimuli “over-arousing”. The experience of limerence is like having arousal overload. Maybe highly sensitive people are more prone to limerence, or have a lower threshold for being triggered into a limerent episode?
These speculations also make me reflect on whether limerence is a pathology. It’s a very common experience for people who are shy or quiet or sensitive to be told that they are abnormal; that their deviation from the norm is evidence that they are in some way defective and possibly even need medicating or behavioural-conditioning to fix themselves.
I’ve mentioned before that there is an element of disease-mongering in the current discourse around limerence. Experiencing limerence – just like experiencing social anxiety or aversion to loud noise – does not seem sufficient reason to justify claims of a mental disorder. Certainly, unwanted limerence is a problem, and has a significant impact on quality of life and the ability to find fulfillment and peace of mind. However, the euphoria of reciprocated limerent feeling is an incredibly positive experience so it seems… counterintuitive to claim this as pathology. Framed as person-addiction, limerence appears negative, but framed as a mechanism for pair-bonding it appears positive.
Like so much about limerence, we’re left floundering in speculation because of the lack of clearly-defined research into the condition. It would be great if sociologists or psychologists would look into this, but that would require greater awareness of limerence in the general population, and a willingness to investigate something that (ever since Tennov’s time) is seen as rather unworthy of academic enquiry. It’s a curiosity that such a central and important part of human experience is treated as somehow frivolous.
Scharnhorst says
There is one, albeit, unscientific, way to take a stab at this, using MBTI types. Are certain types more prone to limerence than others? I’ve had my Meyers-Briggs type determined twice, about 15 years apart paid for by work. In a work environment, I tested as an ESTJ, twice.
In a personal context, I’m ENTJ all the way. LO #4, who called herself “a recovering co-dependent,” and referenced limerence at least once, says she’s INTJ. I’d bet lunch LO #2 was an ESFJ, but again, I don’t know if she was a limerent. I have one professional opinion (not diagnosis) she was a Borderline and another she was a Narcissist.
Determining the correlation between personality disorders and limerence is a different study.
Lee says
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjv8y5/the-myers-briggs-personality-test-bullshit
I’m married to a man with BPD. It makes far more sense to look at personality disorders and limerence rather than the Myers-Briggs which is the equivalent of taking a horoscope seriously.
Also, when doing something that hurts (for real or in theory [yourself, a spouse or a partner]), rather than continuing to do it and ruminating over your motivations – stop doing it. THEN ruminate over your motivations. Otherwise you’re hitting your hand (or theirs) with a hammer repeatedly while musing about your motivations. Drop the hammer.
I know it’s not the same thing, but has anyone here read Lundy Bancroft’s book, “Why Does He Do That?” It can be applied to women too. How about “The Gift of Fear”? If limerence is all about oneself and behaving selfishly, then you can see how it can be the top of a very slippery slope for someone who has a propensity for other selfish behaviors.
I don’t want to suggest that anyone here who is limerent is doing any of these things, but because the topic is so focused on limerence, and less so on the ripple effects, it can’t hurt to broaden the scope. Everyone has the potential to hurt those in their orbit in a myriad of ways. It can’t hurt to take a look at behaviors that may be in the wake and ensure you’re not engaging in them. Thoughts lead to actions. It’s rarely actions leading the way.
All of this applies to SO’s too, of course! We’re no more perfect than anyone else and when upset, we’re as likely to behave poorly too. Particularly once we’ve sensed that our nearest and dearest is too focused on one special party outside of our relationship. SO’s often sense something is off, but when we bring it up we’re gaslighted, or we talk ourselves out of it. “Oh, I’m overreacting. Surely she isn’t brooding over HIM.” That can make us a bit nuts.
I hope everyone has a lovely weekend.
Scharnhorst says
Lee,
Schreiber wrote this article, “THE MALE BORDERLINE – Surviving the Crash after your Crush”
If you read it, I’d be interested in your opinion of Schreiber.
Scharnhorst says
I’ve never seen any real utility in Meyers-Briggs but it makes great conversation with that PLO you’re eyeing at the party. Plus, it sounds a little more intellectual than Horoscopes or Tarot Card readings although those can work pretty well, too. In college, I used to do Tarot Card readings at parties. Girls loved it.
I worked in an organization that tested as over 90% ISTJ (engineers). Our idea of diversity was anybody with “FP” at the end of their profile. In all my professional experience, I’ve never seen a Team Lead say, “We need an ENFP for this job. Call HR and find me one.” It’s not like we put their types on name plaques so that nasty ENTJ doesn’t trample the INFP’s sensibilities.
I haven’t read either of the books you mentioned but I’m familiar with them. I’ve read other books on being in a relationship with someone with a PD. My history of the 5 years I crossed paths with LO #2 went to 13 pages.
Shari Schreiber has a great series of online articles on what it’s like to be in a relationship with someone with a PD. They may not apply to you but they’re very interesting and well written. I was a moderator on a site for men in relationships with Borderlines/Narcissists for several years.
Lee says
I was a mod on bpd411 for several years.
I’ll look it up, thank you. Busy at the moment.
Scharnhorst says
It’s interesting that you and I would end up on the same site at the same time….
When I was “uncovering the past,” I sent the therapist my history of my experience with LO #2 and a link to Schreiber’s “HAVEN’T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple” article. I asked her to read them and give me her professional opinion as to whether that’s what was going on.
At the session, she said while it wasn’t a precise match we were doing a pretty good imitation of one. She said I had distinctly narcissistic defenses but I wasn’t a narcissist. I asked why? She said that I had a conscience and knew when to quit. She said if I was a narcissist, I’d still be in that relationship or one like it and since she was working with my wife, too, she said I wasn’t. In reference to LO #2, she said, “You’ve convinced me she’s a borderline, quit trying to convince yourself she isn’t.” That conversation took place 20 years since I last saw LO #2 which goes to prove that simply trying to bury things doesn’t work.
When all this started coming to a head, I had a pretty good idea WHAT, I was doing. It took therapy to uncover the past to the point it explained the WHY I was doing it and reconcile it. Limerence provided the piece that explained HOW all this played out. All told, it’s going on 9 years since I started working on things. A lot of it was DIY with periods of therapy thrown in as different layers came off the onion.
It was worth the effort.
Lee says
Okay, I found the article and it reminds me of this book (which I read once I figured out that Mr. Lee had BPD – with or without BP): Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship
by Christine Ann Lawson
So much of it sounds familiar. Not all of it applies to Mr. Lee. Also less applies because years ago I got tired of walking on eggshells (another book I read!) and took to stomping on them. More recently I have called Mr. Lee out on the cop-out/passive aggressive “You deserve better than me” nonsense. Fine. I deserve better. STEP UP and BE the man you feel I deserve. I’m not a cheater (neither is Mr. Lee – really) so if you can’t step up/quit whining, then think about your life without ME in it.
Were you around for Ozzie Tinman? Did you read his book? One Way Ticket to Kansas: Caring about Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder and Finding a Healthy You 1st Edition
by Ozzie Tinman (Author)
More recommended readings from way back when: Emotional Blackmail, when people use Fear, Obligation and Guilt; Don’t Shoot the Dog (by Karen Pryor); Emotional Vampires (oversimplified and a bit cutesy – but still worthwhile for me); In Sheep’s Clothing; Snakes in Suits (pretty much anything by Dr. Robert Hare) and no doubt there are others.
Anyway, I stuck with Mr. Lee. I never regarded him as a fixer-upper, still don’t – but we have had some blazing rows through the years where he fiercely resented my insistence that he treat me with more respect and dignity than he wanted to at the time.
I don’t want to put forth too many details, just in case he ever finds this site. It would embarrass him and at this point, he is doing more self-work than ever. I did plenty through the years (therapy, journals, medications when I was depressed, working working working, etc.) so I’m happy to take a break from it all and rest on my laurels a bit.
He’s also had to overcome the sexism with which he was raised. He’s not the family leader because he has a twig and berries. The family leader is the person whom the others follow or at least turn to for guidance at times. That would be me. If someone wants to be the leader, fine – have at it. But I expect them to stick with it and not just fall apart when it gets hard.
I have a high grit factor overall. Mr. Lee does in some things, but not in others.
I don’t know. I love him and sometimes I don’t exactly know why. The same is true for him, no doubt. Probably all of us who have had a long-term relationship! A sense of humor definitely helps. So does resiliency.
Scharnhorst says
Lee,
You’re certainly aware of what you’re dealing with. I have “Snakes in Suits.” One of my favorites is Herve Cleckey’s “The Mask of Sanity.” Since I wasn’t in that relationship anymore, I didn’t spend much time reading about how to cope in one. From what I saw from my time as a moderator, you appear to be the first success story I’ve seen.
After we broke up, LO #2 told me, “I can’t control you. You don’t need me. You were only with me because you wanted to be. There was nothing to bind you to me. I was afraid that one day you’d wake up and not want to be with me. If I gave myself to you and you left, I’d be devastated… You did everything I ever asked of you. The harder you tried the more I resented you for it. I made things so hard for you.” The therapist said, “It’s easier (to understand) when they confess.” The therapist said everything I needed to know about that relationship was in that paragraph and when I understood those, things would start to fall into place.
Six months later, she was back in town looking for a shoulder to cry on after my successor was allegedly cheating on her. I asked if the relationship would ever be what I wanted it to be. She said, “No, you should find some sweet young thing that adores you and not waste your time with a crusty old broad like me.” I was a slow learner.
A month after that, I got her to admit that if she wanted to look around some more and if she didn’t find anything she liked better, she might come back and settle for me. I almost backhanded her in the car. I’d reached my limit.
25 years later, she sent me a FB friend request. I posted a picture of my wife and I from our first New Year’s Eve when my wife was a 23 yr old blonde, blue eyed, bundle of hot. I quoted LO #2 with her “…you should find…” comment, with her initials, the name of the restaurant we were in when she said it, and the date. After the quote, I added, “I found one!” and deleted the request.
Lee says
Success is a relative term. I never liked being put on a plinth & shot him down when he did so, plus I made certain to tell him I’m not perfect, please don’t dehumanize me by saying that, not in jest, not as a compliment, don’t do it. I’ve called him out on his shit. Our kids have too.
They’ve called me out too, but not as often or with as much vehemence.
I’m pretty direct. More so as I’ve aged or matured. I sometimes wonder if we’ve made it this long is a bit of inertia between some moments of blazing insight. I definitely think bpd411 helped because I shut him down a lot more frequently and firmly than many others. Plus I think he really does love me, or feared being alone again, probably both to varying degrees.
Here we are. Mostly ok. I’m pleased he told me about LO early on. I still can’t say that I liked hearing about it, or feeling obligated (again!) to be the one curious enough to see what was going on, how common, etc., but he has joined me on this journey. I have never told him he’s BPD because it would be better if he figured it out. I’m his wife, not his therapist. Nor am I his mom. We’ve had some battles about that too. I refuse to do it. Sometimes he resents that, other times he doesn’t resent it. The resentment is lessening as the years go by. Aging? Learning that I won’t rise to the bait? Both? Hard to say.
Like you, I do lean toward some narcissistic stuff, but I know that about myself and have since adolescence, so I work very hard at beating it back & down. Plus I do care about other’s feelings, as well as my own. I don’t like seeing Mr. Lee unhappy, but I can’t fix it or him, so I don’t bother. I support his efforts though. He was more motivated than many. Especially as the decades have rolled by.
Glad you shook your unhealthy LO.
drlimerence says
Sharnhorst, Lee. You two are convincing me we need a reading list added to the site!
Lee says
Hurray! I love reading lists.
Jaideux says
I don’t know how I missed this fabulous post but hurray! I always suspected being a HSP (highly sensitive person) figured into the limerence! Feeling so validated. 🙂
Lee says
Someone may find this useful. Every strength has its weakness.
https://omtimes.com/2016/05/highly-sensitive-turns-highly-selfish/
Mr. Lee does 7/10.
I am not prone to limerence, nor am I HSP, but as I was physically abused as a child I am very, very observant. I am also very self-sufficient and resourceful. That is great for any number of people around me, particularly Mr. Lee, but it does mean that he has a tendency turned habit to completely overlook that I am not an automaton, or without sensitivities and feelings. It has certainly led to an interesting and unexpected career.
Those of us who are not HSP (or limerent) and are relied upon sometimes want to put down our own cares and burden and sob by the side of the road and be able to rely upon those around us to do what we do so frequently for them and keep all the plates in the air when we simply cannot do it. That when we are done falling apart, we’re not going to have to more to deal with than when we are able to get up again. Don’t lie to us. We may not be as rare and special as limerents/HSP but we’re not all dumb as posts either and the cognitive dissonance sets up real consequences. Often bigger and uglier than they would have been if addressed in the early stages.
I am also not a fan of the orchid/dandelion child metaphor that has recently come into vogue. It lends itself to shunting the “lesser” dandelion children to the side. I endured enough of that when I was showing up at school with bruises up and down my legs and on my arms in elementary and middle school and apparently everyone thought it wasn’t a big deal because my grades were high and I didn’t have any broken bones. It may have led to a higher “grit factor” but it most assuredly wasn’t optimal even if I am “just” a dandelion.
https://www.wired.com/2009/12/does-the-orchid-dandelion-metaphor-work-for-you-my-duel-with-david-shenk/
Lee says
https://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2017/10/difference-between-a-highly-sensitive-person-and-borderline-personality-disorder/
May be useful to others.
Jaideux says
Lee I am very sorry about the abuse you have suffered and that you weren’t given the love and protection you needed as a child.
Speaking of labels however I don’t think all HSPs are selfish and compassion and empathy are often their strong suits. I work in the medical field and am often battling for patients who are underrepresented and this is driven by my compassion for them. While I do feel pain intensely and can get over stimulated by noise and so forth I do carry my weight in relationships, often taking up the slack of others. So we are not all the same! And if we had been in school together I would have found a way to get you help! 🙂
Lee says
Yeah, no, I made a point of finding answers for myself. The number of friends who have come to me with their troubles through the years is legion (see: resourceful). Thankfully, things have changed since I was a child and there are a lot more mandatory reporters who take it seriously.
The fact that the ‘rents made serious efforts to improve themselves helped me quite a bit and definitely made life better for my younger siblings.
No, no – I don’t think all HSPs are selfish but too many forget that they are not the be-all, end-all and they would do well to ask people what they are thinking and feeling rather than playing “Mystic Meg”. Just because someone is sensitive doesn’t mean they know what is driving others emotions. Not really. As I wrote, every gift and strength comes with its dark side.
Impatience is mine and I know it, but the advantage to learning to read the emotional temperature as though my life depended upon it (and it did) is that I also learned how to be quiet and let people speak/do. Of course, I still prefer not having someone between myself and the nearest exit. If there was going to be a scene, I was going to get out and grab as many siblings as possible rather than being frozen by fear.
I will confess to a grim satisfaction that the last time I was struck by a parent was the first time the younger sibs remember seeing it happen. Parent A learned that I was now big enough, strong enough and athletic enough to make slapping me around a bad idea.
PS says
Hi Dr. L,
I agree about adding a reading list to the site; perhaps in addition to psychology books, I suggest a reading list of the great classic love stories that feature limerence: Wuthering Heights, Anna Karenina, Far From the Madding Crowd, Great Expectations, Gone with the Wind, Madame Bovery and the like. Most of us love books with limerent characters, and sympathize much more with these characters than we do with our own limerent selves…
Jasper says
The co-morbidity that really seems to really help me make sense of my own limerence is far and away BDP, especially as a serial limerent. The sheer intensity of it, rejection sensitivity, the feelings of emptiness that I filled with limerence, my eventual lashing out, the need to be understood, validated and accepted. All of it makes so much sense, even if it doesn’t really make me feel much better about it. Google ‘favourite person and BPD” and you’ll see what I mean.
Sarah says
I’ve come across bpd and favorite person when I suspected that my LO is a quiet bpd (thanks to Lee’s prompt) and thought that I must have been his “favorite person”, which made me feel even more cruel going NC on him. But my needs above his, unfortunately… he’ll have to deal with it on his own.
Sophie says
@Lee
Thanks for those links. Will have a read up on the orchid/dandelion metaphor as I’ve not heard of that before.
I realise I’m extremely fortunate to never have experienced the abuse you have – that sounds very tough on you. However I’m fully with you on struggling to keep the plates in the air for others but no-one does it for you.
Think that was a key part of my LE – at the time it felt like LO was the only person to notice/care I was struggling to keep everything going. No4 on that list very much applied to my SO at the time, as he was so wrapped up in hating his job.
My husband identifies himself as a HSP and I was pleased when last year our marriage counsellor suggested he stop putting himself in a box and hiding behind a label.
One thing that has always bugged me is his refusal to drive which he blames on being highly sensitive. He’s got a licence and can drive really well, but just won’t because he finds it too much.
It came to a head when I was pregnant with our first – I said I expected him to drive me to the hospital, he initially refused as he doesn’t like driving. I pointed out I wasn’t overly keen on the idea of giving birth but didn’t have much choice!! He conceded, and a friend who is also a driving instructor gave him a couple of free refresher lessons. He drove me to the hospital and drove us all home again a few days later and hasn’t driven since. Had my 2nd (and final) baby at home for that and several other reasons!
Scharnhorst says
Maybe going slightly OT:
My LO demographics were:
LO #1 – College Student, I have no idea what she went on to do for a living
LO #2 – Nurse
LO #3 – Nurse
LO #4 – Mental Health Professional
Wife – Teacher
I dated 1 or 2 other nurses before I met my wife. 3 of 4 LOs are in “helping professions.” LO #4 was big on the concept of the “wounded healer.” Dating, I got along really well with nurses, teachers, and lawyers. I got along so-so with female engineers. Who I didn’t get along with at all were accountants. I dated two accountants and it was like we were related but distinctly different species.
Petal says
This post resonates with me deeply. Highly sensitive, introverted limerent.
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Lisa H says
i’m diagnosed HSP in the past year and learning about Limerence through 12 step. Limerence made me very unrealistic in an abusive relationship and prolonged the grieving period. I work hard to consciously not fantasize about relationships anymore. I catch the thoughts and stop them.