One of the biggest changes in the world of romance that has happened over the course of my life is the rise of online dating.
My youth wasn’t just pre-Tinder, it was pre-internet. That makes it hard for me to properly understand how romantic and sexual behaviour has been altered by the availability of dating and hook-up apps. I’ve never used them, and so I kind of study the effects they have on people like an anthropologist observing a tribal ritual they don’t fully understand. I have no personal experience to draw on.
During my field trips among the interwebs, I came across this really interesting and thought-provoking TEDx talk about this very topic. The presenter, Dr Michelle Drouin talks about the impact of a world where we have – in principle – online access to everyone we’ve ever been attracted to.
It stimulated a few thoughts for me.
Marketisation
The first is a reinforcement of the view that dating and romance have become much more marketised by having an online catalogue of suitors to swipe through. In combination with the profit motive of the app companies, that does seem to have made everything much more transactional and… well, ruthless.
In the past, the pool of people available for romantic connection was much more limited. Now, all the available people in your vicinity can be searched online. It’s not just a market, it’s a mass market.
Some of this choice is illusory, of course, as it depends on a match. But as Dr Drouin points out, there is almost no risk associated with reaching out – no one will ever know if there is no mutual interest. That seems like a positive thing at first, but it also means that seeking a potential partner (or even just date) can become a low stakes and low effort process.
Anything done causally tends to be less valued – which might also explain why relationships that started online rather than by real-world connection are twice as likely to fail.
Backburners
The second really interesting idea is the concept of “backburners”. I’ve talked about this a bit before in terms of narcissist limerent objects who hold you in reserve as a backup plan, but I’d never really thought in terms of scale, and how having an online catalogue available means a hugely expanded pool of people to keep in a holding pattern.
It made me think of the days when kids would collect cards or stickers of their favourite sports team, movie, or hobby, and then trade their duplicates in the playground to other collectors.
And if the research is correct, it’s not just narcissists who do this, it’s most people. Dr Drouin’s interviewees even had sufficient self-honesty to admit that they consciously thought of these other people in their lives as “backburner” options, just in case their current relationship begins to deteriorate.
It’s another aspect of marketisation.
Why words are so potent for limerents
The third big takeaway was the strangely paradoxical intimacy of online connection. As Dr Drouin describes it, the combination of presenting your best image, having time to carefully craft your words (investing creative effort), and having some latitude to read what you want into their replies, results in an immediate sense of shared intimacy.
I also think that reading is a uniquely immersive experience. The voice of the author is there, right in your head. For limerents, written communication can be especially potent – you get the immersive intimacy, you can re-read their messages as often as you like (repeat rewards), and you can ruminate for hours over exactly what they meant and what secret meanings they carefully placed between the lines.
It’s amazing how much you come to feel you know someone from their writing. I often get a jolt when I read the twitter feed of an author I love, and discover their worldview (at least as expressed on twitter) is completely different to what I expected from their work.
It’s easy to project our own hopes and beliefs onto the words of others.
What counts as cheating now?
A last thought, and the closing theme of the TEDx talk, is how online connections have made the ethics of relationships more blurred than ever. There are some obvious limits that most people agree on (sexting is right out, for example), but does online oversharing constitute infidelity?
I’ve written before on this, and in actual fact it is just a new spin on the old question of how to negotiate relationship boundaries effectively. But there is no doubt that the accessibility and ease of texting, emailing, and social media makes everything more fluid.
For me, a critical factor is how intentional the behaviour is. Engaging in conversation to cultivate a “backburner” is dishonourable at best, if it’s thoughtless, and scummy manipulation at worst if it’s deliberate. The whole concept of backburners is pretty unpleasant if you are in a committed relationship – it’s one thing to be aware of the attractiveness of other people, but it’s quite another to be screening deputies.
The huge increase in scale and ease of access to potential partners created by the online world has profoundly altered human mating behaviour. As a web-anthropologist, I count my blessings that it’s a world I can go home from.
Rings true but also extremely depressing for single limerents in recovery like myself. This idea that online dating is a minefield and a potentially hopeless one, actually helps to keep me stuck in reverie about my LO, because at least he made me feel something. I’m also afraid to venture out into the dating world (aka online dating) because the expected disappointments will just make me compare everyone else to that glimmer, hindering my recovery further. I don’t know what the solution is or how to be hopeful about future romantic connection, so I am just trying my best to live the life I want as a single person, though it does get pretty lonely sometimes.
Yeah, I certainly gave a rather downbeat perspective, Reader! I would say a more positive framing would be that dating apps are not the best starting point for finding a meaningful romantic connection. Knowing that is useful, as it helps protect against the disappointments inherent in such a mass market approach to finding someone. Better to focus on your purposeful life but with an eye open for better opportunities to connect in the real world.
Good post, Dr. L! “Backburner options” have been a thing forever, though. I think I was my LO’s backup option ages ago, and I know my SO was a backup option for at least one person. And our relationship way, way preceded the Internet! It’s quite satisfying to witness the surprise and chagrin of people whose backups have the nerve to jump off the stove and cook up a happy relationship all on their own 😁
“For limerents, written communication can be especially potent – you get the immersive intimacy, you can re-read their messages as often as you like (repeat rewards), and you can ruminate for hours over exactly what they meant and what secret meanings they carefully placed between the lines”
This part actually got me thinking, since I’ve always wondered why my LE with LO3 felt like the bleakest and most hopeless one despite that we only actually met each other in person for something like a couple of hours, and it seems that the fact that we spent the months of COVID quarantines texting each other mattered a lot. Add to that a healthy dose of lockdown-induced loneliness, the lack of actual face to face contact which let idealization run loose, and that’s a recipe for disaster.
Dating apps were never much my thing, although now they’ve become so commonplace that maybe it’s time to give them a try. Not that what is said about them on this post isn’t true, but maybe they best seen as a dangerous tool, like a blowtorch -something that you shouldn’t point towards your face during use, but otherwise useful for its intended purpose.
I liked the “quality of alternatives around us” and “investment” parts of Drouin’s video!
When LO #2 admitted she wanted to look around some more and if she didn’t find anything she liked better [i.e., find a better alternative], she might come back and settle for me [i.e., invest in the relationship], I almost backhanded her. I didn’t appreciate that.
I never thought of LO #4 as “backburner” but it fits Drouin’s description. She nailed how LO #4 and I ended up deep in the weeds. She could use me as poster child for a lot of it, especially the EA part, but she’d have to pay me.
Words can be intensely powerful. LO #4 has a series of YouTube videos. I knew the tone of her voice, her inflection, her cadence. I’d read her correspondence and she was in the room with me. As our acquaintance changed, so did the manner of her responses.
OT: I grew up about 20 miles from Naperville! In 1988, I met my wife the old fashioned way, I picked her up in a bar.
I rewatched the video and evaluated my last LE against it, especially my recent social media relapse. Drouin nailed it. The backburner concept puts a new perspective on it.
When I approached LO #4, I expected her to tell me to butt out. But, she didn’t. She said she appreciated me telling her what I saw. Later, she noted that my correspondence seemed to coincide with when she was particularly down. She said, “What do I telegraph to you?” She knew I saw something and was responding to it.
When I worked for her, we had a very comfortable acquaintance. One of the other mods on her site asked me how long I’d known her and how we met. I told him I’d never actually met her and hadn’t been on the site all that long. He said that surprised him because of the way we bantered with each other, he thought we were old friends and really close.
At some point, I knew LO #4 had become a “backburner” although I was unaware of the term. Neither of us appeared to be looking for trouble, we were both in what appeared to be pretty solid relationships, although both of us were having trouble in them. We were on opposite coasts. What could possibly go wrong?
And, then, her relationship collapsed. She reached out and started confiding in me. I don’t know who else she was confiding in but that’s not important. Where one of the boundaries was her unavailability, that was now gone.
I flat out told LO #4 that as cool as making a run at her would be, I hoped that I was never in the position to find out. To be in that position meant something terrible had happened in my life. I told LO #4 that I didn’t want the idea that I wanted to be anywhere else with anyone else to be in the same time zone with my wife. I never want my wife to question the love, loyalty, and trust she placed in me. My wife was the first woman who took a chance on me and didn’t take off on me. I told LO #4 that I’d envy any man who could earn her trust and affection. I told her heaven help the man she ever really trusted. He wouldn’t know what hit him.
I thought telling LO #4 those things would dissuade her. Oddly, it didn’t. I told the EAP counselor what I told LO #4 and her response was, “You told her all that? For a smart guy, you made some really bad assumptions.”
The closer LO #4 got, the more anxiety I experienced. When I got a FB friend request from LO #4, I asked her if she meant to send it. She said she meant it. My wife knew of my acquaintance with LO #4 but not the extent of it. I told my wife about the request. Her eyes narrowed and she said, “Accept it.” My wife went into threat assessment mode.
So, I accepted it.
Less than a week after LO #4 and I became FB friends, I had a dream about her in which I almost drove my car off a washed out bridge. The EAP counselor said I didn’t need her to figure out what that one meant. I asked LO #4 if it was ok if we weren’t FB friends. Her response came in less than 10 minutes, “No problem.” Not only did she unfriend me, she blocked me. Six weeks later, she said goodbye.
I don’t know if my wife looked at LO #4’s page then but she did later. When I disclosed my LE/EA to my wife 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye, my wife commented, “She’s not even all that attractive.” I had a pretty good idea of the pictures my wife saw and they aren’t the most flattering pictures of LO #4 out there but I wasn’t going to say that.
Drouin starts her story in 1993. It gets even more interesting if you’re slightly older. In 1993, there may not have been many cell phones and the Internet was just taking off but there were answering machines and caller ID. When I started dating, those didn’t exist. In HS, we had two phones most of the time. One was in the kitchen, one was in the master bedroom. Privacy? What was that? Later, my father put a home office in the basement and added a phone. Things got better.
I got my first microcassette answering machine so I could screen calls to avoid being called back into work and avoid telemarketers. Caller ID was an expensive add on and I was too cheap to pay for it then. Today, screening calls is automatic. Every cell phone has it and it’s included in almost all landline packages.
It’s been commented on that people would rather text than call someone. The articles seem to imply this is some weird phenomenon. But, to anyone who remembers what it was like prior to Caller ID, it makes perfect sense.
Drouin’s video explains the mechanics but not the nature of the attractions. Why do we choose the “alternatives” we do? I wonder if she has any thoughts on that? Drouin’s video explains how I went down the rabbit hole with LO #4 but not the why of LO #4.
The “why” is an entirely different question.
Online dating can be a force for good too. I work in a male dominated field, one that tends to attract introverts. Several of my male work friends (and my brother) met their spouses via dating websites due to lack of options in person. These guys may have remained single for life without online dating – I had all but given up hope of my brother ever finding a long term partner!
But I would differentiate between meeting people online and getting to know them online… my brother and most of my friends may have had an online introductions to their spouses, but they quickly met up and got to know each other in person. I agree with the dangers of getting to know someone online only, especially for us limerents… the scope for projecting our fantasies onto them is huge!
Allie,
I, too, know several people who met long-term partners online. Online dating is not the dearth of all hope that this post makes it out to be. And it beats going to a party and chatting up someone, only to find 30 minutes to an hour later — or maybe even the next day when SOMEONE ELSE tells you — that the person is married. Talk about a lady boner crusher (and a waste of time)! 🙂 At least online you know the person is single and looking.
Secondly, I have to meet someone in person to become limerent or even attracted. Yes, I can tell if someone is aesthetically appealing in a photo or if they can write well by their answers, but I can’t tell if I feel chemistry until I see them, witness their mannerisms, hear their voice, etc. Voices are huge, and a bad voice can kill it. The drawback to online dating is that it is possible to dismiss someone’s profile who you could meet in person and have some real chemistry with.
“Secondly, I have to meet someone in person to become limerent or even attracted. Yes, I can tell if someone is aesthetically appealing in a photo or if they can write well by their answers, but I can’t tell if I feel chemistry until I see them, witness their mannerisms, hear their voice, etc. Voices are huge, and a bad voice can kill it.”
@Marcia.
What you write here is interesting regarding the mysteries of human attraction.
I’m an introvert who takes a fair bit of pride in my character and my intellect and my writing skills – all things I feel I can somewhat control. However, it disturbs me very much to think that when people are attracted to me, they’re not responding in most cases to my character or my intellect or my writing skills. They’re responding to aspects of me I don’t necessarily value and/or can’t really control – looks, scent, voice, etc.
I hate being judged – and judged positively – on all the wrong things!! 😛
I have had guys admit they were drawn to me because of my voice, which I find weird, as I don’t like my voice. I think my voice is too high-pitched. I’d prefer to be a imposing bass and not a squeaky tenor. (Speaking voice).
Looks? Honestly, I’ve given up trying. But my ungroomed maleness still manages to catch a few eyes occasionally. Maybe I’m a “fixer-upper”?
Scent? Let’s not even go there… I tend to sweat a lot. 😛
I think a lot of chemistry comes down to mirroring another person’s body language, or noticing that they’re mirroring me. Mirroring – that’s the magic for me. Maybe my parents were hopeless at mirroring, so I feel very excited when I find someone who doesn’t treat me like I’m invisible? 😛
I’m offended that people are attracted to me, because I feel they’re zeroing in on all my worst traits and failing to appreciate my best traits! When people are attracted to me, I feel as if they’re displaying bad taste. They don’t know what they’re talking about. How’s that for contrarianism? Also, I hate the fact I make people laugh when I’m being totally serious! 😛
If I can’t get people to love me for the correct reasons, what’s the point? I’m loved for all the things about myself I actually would like to change. 😛
I agree Ally about prolonged online chat. Also, I think there is a kind of online ‘friendzoning’ or some similar thing which means the longer you communicate solely online the less comfortable it is to meet. Expectations can be set too high. A friend of mine said she feels nervous because (like the presenter of the video mentioned) she has time and space to craft witty banter online, but is quite socially awkward in person.
If you’re serious you need to bring it into the real world fairly quickly. Because if you’re going to be turned down for a date IRL it’s better to find out sooner than later. After all it’s a waste of time unless you want penpals, which some online users do and isn’t a bad thing I don’t think. But best to know from the get go.
“… they quickly met up and got to know each other in person.”
@Allie 1.
So, for people genuinely looking for love, moving from online to real life fairly quickly is a good strategy? I’ve always delayed the real-life meeting as I thought it was “too pushy” to meet somebody too soon. Don’t ask me how soon is too soon. Years? Decades? (Little joke there). 😛
Sammy,
“I’ve always delayed the real-life meeting as I thought it was “too pushy” to meet somebody too soon. Don’t ask me how soon is too soon. Years? Decades?”
Sounds like you were trying to create limerence! 🙂 Let it stew, let someone ruminate, don’t make a move for a realllllllllllllllly long time, if ever. Just dangle yourself like a delicious pork chop! 🙂 I always think that if someone doesn’t want to meet up pretty quickly, he’s not serious or too tentative or has a bunch of other orbiters.
@Marcia. Yes, I can see your point here. Love the pork chop reference too. 😂
Isn’t it funny to be considering the dangers of meeting people online when that is our relationship to each other! I do feel I have some level of real connection with some of you and have built up a vivid picture of who you are in real life. But these are mostly the type of relationships that we can pick-up and drop when it suits us, and therefore not “real” somehow.
Re-iterating what others have said before me, it would be so much fun to have an LwL convention and meet-up in person just that once! 🙂
Yeah, it would be fun to have an LwL “meet & greet.”
I can see having that conversation with my wife…
Me: “Sweetie, I’m taking a week off and going to the UK!”
Her: “Say what?!”
Me: “Yeah, I’m going to the UK for the Living with Limerence “meet & greet” in [fill in place] There will be people from the US, UK, Europe and who knows where else there.”
Her: “What?! Limerence??? I thought you were past all that. Now, you’re going to the UK to meet these people??? Will the redhead [LO #4] be there?”
Me: “I am “past all that.” It’s purely academic now. Trust me… And, if ‘the redhead’ is there, it would be purely by accident.”
Her: “Uuughhh….no. Just no. This really bothers me.”
Me: “Not even if we go together? You can sightsee or shop. I can’t imagine it will take up the whole day.”
Her: “Still no…”
Count me in. I only need permission from my employer. 🙂
There are quite a few people on the public blog and the private forum I would love to meet (including Dr. L himself). It would be great to be able to chat with all of you even on things that are completely off-topic. However, the problem is I think some of us would become limerent for one another!
Various,
“However, the problem is I think some of us would become limerent for one another!”
I’m not worried about that. I haven’t had a new LO in a decade. It’s a very specific personality type that seems to trigger me, and I also have to be at a certain place emotionally. And, no offense, but I would rather get hit by a car than become limerent for another married man. 🙂 Most of the guys who post on here are married or have an SO.
Ditto in a sense Marcia. Both of my LOs have been single ladies. I think one of the things that attracts me is the availability. I don’t think I would feel the same about a married woman. But everyone is different. There are plenty people on the blog and the private forum who are limerent for people who are in long-term relationships. I still think there would be a good chance of it happening if a large number of us got together. I would be willing to bet the meetup would result in some LEs and possibly even some hookups, but that’s not to say it would happen with EVERYONE.
LE,
“I don’t think I would feel the same about a married woman.”
Well, you can see how I feel about the married or partnered up dudes. I know married dudes always say, “I’m married. I’m not dead.” But to any sensible woman … you kind of are. 🙂 Sorry. It’s a train wreck waiting to happen.
Vicarious,
“I would be willing to bet the meetup would result in some LEs and possibly even some hookups, but that’s not to say it would happen with EVERYONE.”
Maybe some one-off hookups, if that. This is a fairly cautious bunch. 🙂 And I think limerence is pretty rare.
Marcia,
I think you confused me with VL in your above post.
Bring a bunch of llimerents together who are already somewhat connected and what could possibly go wrong?
LE,
“I think you confused me with VL in your above post.”
Sorry. I got all your married dudes confused. 🙂
“Bring a bunch of limerents together who are already somewhat connected and what could possibly go wrong?”
I don’t think much. Even if some people become limerent, they more than likely ain’t going to do nothin’ about it. 🙂
Apart from suffer the agonies of limerence limbo.
Can’t help thinking that rather runs at odds with the aims of this site…
Marcia,
“Sorry. I got all your married dudes confused. 🙂”
I don’t know how you could possibly make such an egregious mistake but I accept your apology 🙂
“I don’t think much. Even if some people become limerent, they more than likely ain’t going to do nothin’ about it. 🙂”
Most likely but it’s not a sure bet. Too many variables can come into play there. I think there are a lot of people for whom the catalyst factor could come into play. I also think there are people here who would think if they could get away with something, they’d go for it. YOLO, you know.
It’s interesting, from what she told me, I’m pretty sure I was on LO #4’s “back burner,” at least after I disclosed to her. I liked it there. It appeared to be no risk and there was no opportunity to do anything about it. When it looked like she was moving me to the front burner, I panicked.
But, when she took me off the stove entirely, i.e., said goodbye, I didn’t like it at all. I wonder if my social media drive-bye was my way of assessing if I could get back on the stove. After disclosing to my wife, attempting to get back on the stove would be a disaster but that didn’t stop me from looking.
The “back burner” appears to be different from “friend zone.” I liked being in one, I didn’t like being in the other.
More stuff for debate.
LE,
“When it looked like she was moving me to the front burner, I panicked.”
That’s exactly my point about nothing happening at a limerence convention. Don’t get on the scale if you ain’t got the weight. 🙂
“The “back burner” appears to be different from “friend zone.” I liked being in one, I didn’t like being in the other.”
I don’t know about the friend zone. Hasn’t happened to me since high school, but the back burner is a horrible place to be. It’s selfish for anyone to put you in there. What it essentially means is … you’re my #2 choice. Either because I don’t want to slog through all the steps I’d have to go through to make you my #1, front burner choice or because I really do put you in second place, and I have no intention of ever moving you to the front unless my situation changes. But I’m going to keep hope alive for you, just so you don’t remove yourself from the stove.
@Marcia, I get it that women don’t want to get involved with a married man or become limerent for one. I don’t see it as a personal insult in any way. I am not interested in married women either and wouldn’t be if I were single. I am not looking for an LO, nor am I looking for anyone to be limerent for me. I just thought that bringing a bunch of limerents together in person might end up causing some trouble for some people (some but definitely not all). Still, it would be intriguing to meet some people in this community.
Vicarious,
” I just thought that bringing a bunch of limerents together in person might end up causing some trouble for some people (some but definitely not all). ”
Possibly. But now that we’ve all been on this site and read the posts and know what to look for, it seems to me a possible glimmer can be seen for what it is and nipped in the bud so as to prevent more trauma.
“Possibly. But now that we’ve all been on this site and read the posts and know what to look for, it seems to me a possible glimmer can be seen for what it is and nipped in the bud so as to prevent more trauma.”
One thing they pounded into us operating a nuclear reactor on a submarine was you never rely on safety features or interlocks. You operate away from the setpoint.
One thing you learn on this site is LOs or potential LOs don’t always behave as you think they will and peoples’ situations can change radically. Maybe you can manage things and maybe you can’t.
Song of the Blog (redux): “Just One Look” – Lulu and the Lovers (1963) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCKslkUD-BY
You can’t say anything would happen but you sure can’t say it wouldn’t.
You have to respect the intelligence and integrity of the LwL community but you can’t rely on them. Not in this situation.
LE,
I think most of what happens between people are minor attractions or crushes and fairly easy to walk away from. Limerence happens, but it is rare. I don’t think most of us are moving through our daily lives and being pulled by temptation and having to fight ourselves, particularly the older we get. This ain’t “Dynasty.” 🙂
“You have to respect the intelligence and integrity of the LwL community but you can’t rely on them. Not in this situation.”
That sounds dramatic. It’s been years since I met someone and said to myself: I have to stay away from this person or I’m going to do something stupid. And then what happened? He did what you did with LO#4. So there was no need for me to get so worked up.
I think for many of us, the position of LO is already filled isn’t it? And those that have successfully extracted themselves hopefully have the skills to avoid the rabbit hole. So pretty safe all in all.
Allie,
Yeah, agree. Either you already have an LO or are mostly over the last LO and want to avoid that trauma again. I mean, I guess one could find drama if one looked for it. 😀
DrL needs to get off the dime and start organizing!
I’d be willing to organize. Of course, it might not be the “convention” Dr. L was expecting. Most of it would take place at the disco. 🙂
Yes I can definitely see Marcia, VL and I hitting the dance floor at an LwL disco! 🙂
Marcia,
You could do a local meet-up now on the private forum.
Go for it!
This is like an AA group deciding, let’s have our next meeting at a bar. Prolly not smart. But what I’d really like to know is, Has anyone has managed to actively, consciously channel attraction into friendship? (Either when you were attracted or the other person was.) I feel like this is something those of us who grew up gay learned to do out of necessity (and a lot of opportunity to practice). I’ve had wonderful, intimate life-time friendships with some of these people in my life. The pathway is different, but the end result is not too different from being great friends with an ex. Without the consummation, of course, which, as DrL has pointed out, is often not the goal with limerent attraction anyway. Oftentimes we mostly just crave some reciprocation. So…can two people recognize there’s some attraction (mutual or one-sided) and both see clearly that a relationship is not possible (for whatever reason) and then just…one or both wait until the fire subsides?
And here’s one for Limerent Emeritus (from Broadcast News): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTCtiADVAWs
Just because someone’s in the friend zone doesn’t mean it can’t be a great friendship. Or maybe she’s saying it does. 🙂
Landry,
Great video! I’ve never watched that movie.
I still don’t like the Friendzone.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-friendzone/#comment-1484
If you read that link, I think LO #2 was trying to put me in a double bind. If I said, “No,” it was open season for her to tell me all about her liaisons with other men and I’d have to take it because that’s what friends do. But, when I started seeing someone and I started spending time with the new woman, LO #2 would accuse me of lying to her because it did affect the friendship.
Other people may be able to pull it off but I’m not.
I have no women friends aside from my wife. I didn’t bring a single woman from my past with me. I have no women buddies.
My wife has absolutely no problem with me hanging out with my beer drinking or golf buddies but none of them are women. If I brought another woman into my life for whatever reason, I think she’d be upset. I have a long leash but my wife always has her “finger on the net.” She knows my normal and knows almost immediately when I go outside the control band.
My wife said there is only one woman out there she doesn’t want me to be FB friends with, LO #2, although I think since I disclosed my LE/EA to her, LO #4 is probably on the list. I’m not going to ask. Aside from the XLOs, I can’t think of a single woman who’d be likely to contact me and only one that I kind of wish would. LO #2 was a notable exception in that I got a friend request from her 25 years after we said goodbye. Since I didn’t accept it, I don’t know if she meant to send it or it was an accident.
At its height, my wife asked me directly if LO #4 was after me. I was able to honestly answer that I didn’t think so. Thank God, my wife didn’t ask the question the other way around. The conversation would have become very uncomfortable very quickly.
I can see where it could be different for unattached limerents.
But, again, this is me talking.
Landry
“So…can two people recognize there’s some attraction (mutual or one-sided) and both see clearly that a relationship is not possible (for whatever reason) and then just…one or both wait until the fire subsides?”
I’ve never been friends with an LO. And I would disagree with saying that consummation may not be the goal of limerence. It was for me. I might understand intellectually that the LO couldn’t consummate, but reciprocation didn’t feel like enough. In fact, I think made me feel worse. Like … he felt some level of reciprocation, but not enough to do anything about it.
@Limerent Emeritus: “Great video! I’ve never watched that movie.”
Well, Broadcast News is one of the best movies of the 80’s. Ton of Oscar nominations, if no wins. You should check it out! Speaking of romantic comedies of the 80’s, I recently re-watched Woody Allen’s Hannah and Her Sisters, which I see now has one of the best depictions of limerence I’ve ever seen on screen. That the limerent is played by Michael Caine–who surely voices DrL in the animated film of our lives (am I right??)–is delicious icing on the cake.
@Landry
I’ll have to watch it. It sounds interesting.
It’s release date was Dec 16, 1987. That was about a week after LO #2 arrived in town on her last drive-by. The Love-Bombing SIL of my co-worker had just gone back to Colorado and I sure wasn’t taking LO #2 to see it.
The only movie I remember seeing from 1987 was “Fatal Attraction.” Based on its release date, I don’t remember if I saw it with the Love-Bomber but I remember it making me wonder who I could be sitting next to in the theater.
As much as I like older Woody Allen films, I also have never seen “Hannah and Her Sisters.” I read the Wiki page. Woody Allen as a hypochondriac movie critic…who’d have guessed?
My favorite Woody Allen film is “Play It Again, Sam.” I bought the DVD. It makes me howl. My wife just looks at me and shakes her head. I told her you kind of had to have been there to really appreciate it. “Casablanca” played a role in my relationship with LO #2 and some of it spilled over into my marriage. “Casablanca” may have played an indirect role in LO #2 deciding to finally sleep with me. [true].
PS: I had to watch the “Broadcast News” clip a few times to catch, “I buried the lede.” I also had to look up that term, too.
PPS: We should have a “Middle-Age, Attached, and Limerent” breakout session at the LwL meetup.
You have to be 40+ and provide proof of relationship status (e.g., marriage license). To appreciate stuff out of the 80s, I should probably make it 50+. Both conditions are required to attend the session. Unattached limerents can have their own breakout session.
I’ll check credentials at the door and collect a small fee to cover drinks and hors d’oeuvres. Unless, we can get DrL to pony up for those. He owes us.
This LwL conference is getting out of hand. I’m not sure the world is ready for us. Especially if we come armed with the best of the 80s…
“This LwL conference is getting out of hand. I’m not sure the world is ready for us. Especially if we come armed with the best of the 80s…” – DrL
Not our problem…
You think it’s getting out of hand now? Ever heard of those disco cruises where they book acts like KC and the Sunshine Band?
I bring you:
“LwL Cruise of the Mediterranean! 7 days and 6 nights of food, drink, and fellow limerents, all in an environment you pretty much can’t escape! No Contact… not on this cruise, baby! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbO2hlNb6w8 ”
We get a couple of 80s cover bands to come along. I know a pretty good one out here.
I missed my calling. I should have gone into marketing. My college advisor said I had no business (get the pun?) in engineering school.
OT: Back in the 70s, my father actually took a cruise on The Pacific Princess!
Unattached limerents don’t need their own breakout sessions. There’s just one main piece of wisdom to share that needs no discussion: If your LO is attached, RUN.
I’m only getting up to dance if you play some METAL music! 🤘
Landry,
Great call on the movies! I watched them both. Between “Broadcast News” and “Hannah and Her Sisters,” I liked “Hannah…” better.
“Broadcast News” Most Relatable Scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPtKevwg7Ko
Actual goodbye with LO #2:
Me: “It didn’t work out for us but we both know which one of us flushed it down the toilet.”
LO #2: “You told me that I had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person [true]. I hate you for that”
She gave me a ride to the ferry terminal. I don’t remember us talking. When I got out, I didn’t slow down and I didn’t look back.
“Hannah…” Most Relatable Scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JauxWp4eWnM&list=PLZbXA4lyCtqpKPeMAd9TLg1QUag57Nznx&index=1
“Hannah…” came out in 1986. I couldn’t relate to it then. In 2015, I could have written a good portion of it. Disclosing an EA was bad enough. If I’d had a PA, I think I’d be a dead man. If it was with my wife’s sister, my wife might dismember my corpse.
There’s a scene shortly after where Michael Caine perceives reciprocation and he says, “I have my answer.” But, I couldn’t find a clip of that.
LO #4 and I never spoke directly. Everything was done via email and PM. I don’t know if she’d agree but I think it was because it was a boundary we didn’t want to cross. It would have made things even more real.
Remember the scene where Elliot and Lee are dancing? Do you know what they were dancing to? “You Made Me Love You”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YACUYgP44SQ
No irony there….
I must say now that I have been reading this blog for a while, I enjoy the comments more the actual blog itself. Sorry Dr. L.😏
“I enjoy the comments more the actual blog itself. Sorry Dr. L.😏”
@carreid away.
The comment section? Well, it is a bit like going to the school fete and sticking your hand in the lucky dip. Although, of course, I enjoy the blog very much too. 😛
Lol!!! Haven’t checked out the breakout sessions thus far, but I suppose I could be persuaded…
Funny, I know a lot of Millennials say that 80’s music is their jam. But they don’t seem to have turned on to the great films of that era.
Think about it.
How were most of us exposed to music in the 80s?
Listening to the radio in the car. Movies took time, money, and a straight male would only be caught dead alone in a (non-porn) theater under extreme circumstances. The only movie I saw alone was “Das Boot.” I gave myself dispensation.
I saw a ton of movies on the sub. We deployed with 3 for every day we were underway. The were all second or third run but I saw a lot of them. I have a scar where I mangled my finger in the projector.
We had great hope for “The French Lieutenant’s Woman.” With a title like that, it had to be good.
We threw things at the screen.
“… an immediate sense of shared intimacy.”
“I also think that reading is a uniquely immersive experience. The voice of the author is there, right in your head. For limerents, written communication can be especially potent – you get the immersive intimacy, you can re-read their messages as often as you like (repeat rewards), and you can ruminate for hours over exactly what they meant and what secret meanings they carefully placed between the lines.”
Hm, yes and yes!
Guilty as charged. About eighty-five percent of one of my LEs was conducted over snail mail. Letters were the main means of communication. To be quite frank, he was a terribly writer. He didn’t give me a lot of good stuff to mull over. Still, I got a dopamine hit from receiving his letters and a massive, massive dopamine hit from composing my flamboyant responses to his anaemic offerings… 😛
The act of writing and dopamine release must be closely tied up together in my brain.
Honestly, maybe I just wanted an audience for what I had to say, and he was an effective audience? Maybe this is more evidence in favour of the idea that limerence is “being in love with love itself” and not being in love with a given person, although of course a given person is necessary to get the ball rolling?
But I absolutely agree – the shared sense of intimacy came from the written word, from the exchange of letters, from the illusion of having some kind of special and private communication with him, my beloved and minimally talented audience of one … oh sorry … I mean, delightful and impossibly perfect LO.
Okay, I think I’m going to shut up now. That enough self-mockery and ex-LO-mockery for one day. 🙂
I don’t know how much of this is the dating app culture vs. pre-app and how much of it is being in my forties vs. being in my twenties, but I miss knowing a bunch of people and getting to know them at least somewhat as friends BEFORE going out on a date. It’s so intimidating to date people I don’t know at all and then have to make decisions about whether to keep seeing them when I barely know them and only in this one context. I definitely liked it better before.
I’m curios. Do you ladies like a man that dresses “sharp”? Most days I try to dress to impress Momma. Today when I stepped out; chinos, t-shirt, black vest, pocket watch and white fedora. Do modern day ladies like the old school attire?
I like well-groomed, matching—clothed, (inexpensive) (f+m)appearance with modesty and confidence.
Adam,
You gotta stop sending these slow floaters over the plate!
“Sharp Dressed Man” – ZZ Top (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw
I danced my fanny off to ZZ Top in the 80s.
I’m just one lady, but my LO actually does dress better than most men, which is nice–it shows he’s not afraid to clean up good. That said, at our recent coffee date he was dressed quite casually, which I had never seen before, and it was nice to relax with him like that, too.
LO was the opposite for the most part. First time I met her in person she was wearing jeans, shirt and ballcap with ponytail through the back of the cap. While I’m big on women’s fashion (from what MJ says his LO would be kryptonite to me) I love to sit on the porch and watch when Momma cuts the grass as she does it in shorts, tank top and ballcap with the ponytail through the back. Love the tomboy look. 😉
Hello Bridgelover, firstly congrats on getting out there in the dating world !!! One of my friends recently married a guy she met on a dating app, after many many ‘no no ‘ not for me situations. I found her experiences on dating apps fascinating and sometimes hysterically funny ! I wish you the best in this new world of dating!! Can you maybe consider joining a group. Eg walking/ community/ charity group/ course ? This maybe another avenue to get to know people first like the good old days….
True Story (on the lighter side):
tl/dr
When we started dating regularly, LO #2 told me that in college she worked in the Men’s Department of the Seattle Marshall Fields’ affiliate. She said that I was decent looking, smart, had a good sense of humor and above average social skills.
She said that I dressed like a Bozo.
She said that she’d come over on Saturday, she’d go through my closet and “we’d” go clothes shopping.
[Tangent/on] She came over. I offered her a cup of coffee. She took one taste, went “Bleahhh!” and asked what it was. I pulled out a can of whatever and showed it to her. I was in the Navy. If it was brown and liquid, it was coffee. She said, “Bleahh!” She asked what I made it in. I showed her my parents 1960 vintage electric percolator. This was 1983. She went, “Bleahhh!” and said in addition to buying clothes, “we’d” get a decent coffee maker and she would teach me how to make coffee. [Tangent/off]
Once we got past the coffee, she told me to get two trash bags and follow her. I asked why two? She said one for donations, one for trash.
She went into my bedroom, opened the closet and pushed all my Navy uniforms to one side. The she took out each article of clothing from my closet and said “Keep,” “Donate,” or “Trash.” She took out one hideous pair of brown and white checked polyester bell-bottoms, ripped them apart at the seem, and said, “Not even a poor person should be caught dead in these.”
When she finished, she said that she knew what I needed and we took off. She said that I was a “winter” and had all the wrong colors for me in my closet. She said that I looked good in Navy blue so that uniform worked for me. She said she couldn’t understand men’s fascination with “Bachelor Brown” but she saw a lot of it.
$500+ [$1500+ in 2023 dollars] later, I was a new man.
And, I had a new Melita coffee maker!