Unexpected limerence in a marriage is tough. There are several reasons why married limerents might become vulnerable to the allure of a new limerent object. It’s easy to slip into a state of benign neglect in a marriage as the demands of daily life exclude time to connect romantically with your spouse. Maybe the situation is even worse, and you have fallen into the habit of seeing your partner primarily as a dependent. Perhaps the marriage has become sexless. Or perhaps, there is nothing wrong with the marriage at all and you just happened to meet someone who caused the glimmer, at a time when you were psychologically open – say due to a midlife crisis.
The impact on the unwitting spouse is even worse, of course. The limerent struggles with containing their feelings of elation and excitement at their guilty source of pleasure. For the spouse, they face a potential existential threat to the life they have built. Their past and their future are also caught up in the bonfire of the present. Infidelity can destroy lives.
Martial limerence is a high stakes problem. Naturally, limerents try to find creative solutions to reconcile the cognitive dissonance caused by loving their spouse but also being infatuated with someone else. From the perspective of the limerent, they want to stay married and keep all the joint investment in their stable relationship, but also pursue their limerent object. Often that leads to a simple conclusion: monogamy is the problem.
How realistic is it that moving from monogamy to polyamory will solve the problem of limerence in marriage? Is new limerence a sign that we are built to love more than one person at a time, or is this a rationalisation – what could be called polyamory of convenience – to try and meet conflicting desires?
Let’s dive into the cauldron of doom.
Ethical non-monogamy
Ethical non-monogamy as a lifestyle has gained a lot of advocates in the last few decades. Of course, non-monogamy has been around since, well, the emergence of sexual reproduction, and people have always experimented with alternative lifestyles, but the promotion of a theoretical and practical basis for living a polyamorous life has really taken off since the 1990s.
Two of the landmark books that spearheaded this transformation were “The Ethical Slut” and “Sex before Dawn”. These books respectively outlined the principles for enjoying and managing multiple sexual relationships at once, and made an anthropological case that promiscuity and non-monogamy was the default mode of interpersonal relationships in hunter-gatherer tribes before the onset of agriculture. The argument is that the transition to static communities and the development of rules about private ownership of resources, led to the imposition of “enforced monogamy” as a new constraint in human societies.
These ideas have gained a lot of attention and been highly influential. Such mainstream publications as Time magazine, Vogue, Vanity Fair, Cosmopolitan (and many others) have run enthusiastic articles about polyamorous lifestyles. Amongst young adults, surveys suggest wide-ranging support for polyamory.
This philosophy is founded on the idea that monogamy is primarily a social phenomenon. It minimises evolutionary arguments for the origins of monogamy being based in sexual competition or mate selection, and instead places it in the category of cultural programming – often argued as serving a patriarchal goal of controlling women’s sexuality. Jealousy, from this perspective, is a learned rather than innate behaviour, and a sign of emotional immaturity.
Despite it’s popularity, the evidence for this proposition is actually quite weak, and seems to mostly be based on analogy to bonobo behaviour. Critics of the “Sex at dawn” perspective point out that it is founded on inaccuracies in both anthropology and primatology. Furthermore, contemporary hunter-gatherers practice monogamy and have marriage rituals, suggesting it doesn’t arise from the resource hoarding of agriculture, and there is evidence from analysis of genetic inheritance patterns that ancient societies had only low levels of polygamy.
In fact, hunter-gatherers ruthlessly enforce monogamy. An irony of the egalitarian nature of hunter-gatherer communities means that men are especially focused on status and fidelity, and enforce strict behavioural standards among their peer group through violence. To quote the psychologist Rob Henderson:
The most common cause of murder in hunter-gatherer communities involves matters of sex, adultery, or jealousy. [Anthropologist Christopher Boehm] states that “competition for females is the leading cause of hunter-gatherer homicide.”
Enforced monogamy certainly restricts individual freedom, but it also makes men more cooperative and less competitive. That seems to be necessary for human communities to build affinity beyond small kin groups.
Ultimately, attempts to identify the “natural” mating arrangement for humans quickly prove futile. We have evolutionary drives built into us that want contradictory things – familiarity and novelty, fidelity and promiscuity, security and excitement. Cultural conventions develop to try and mitigate our worst impulses, and these determine the sort of society we live in.
Search long enough and you can find almost every kind of social setup for managing sexual and family relationships somewhere in history. There was no idyllic Rosseauian state of mankind that we have fallen from. All social systems are culturally contrived and have to accommodate our conflicting drives.
Polyamory and limerence
With that digression out of the way, what does this mean for our intrepid limerent trying to reconcile the contradictory drives of commitment to long-term bonding versus thrills for a new limerent object?
There are a couple of key scenarios.
First, and perhaps most commonly, the limerent had not really contemplated polyamory before the arrival of a new LO. Previously, the glimmer led to euphoria, and then may or may not have resulted in the transition into a long-term relationship, but limerence was essentially just the way early love felt and was the prelude to a monogamous union. This is the scenario where the limerent tries to resolve their cognitive dissonance (I love my partner, but I’m infatuated with LO) by reframing their attitude to monogamy.
The second scenario is that the limerent has already adopted the poly life and meets a new LO who could potentially be integrated into their existing relationships. There are several types of poly lifestyle, with varying degrees of emotional and practical investment in the different relationships, but all are based on open communication, consensus and consent.
In both cases, limerence can be hard to accommodate. For those who are exploring polyamory for the first time, there are obvious pain points ahead. Their spouse is put in a very difficult position. You have to have world class communication skills to be able to negotiate a change in the fundamental status of a relationship without them feeling coerced, criticised, or sidelined. Commonly, even floating the conversation irreparably damages trust, security and self-esteem.
You also can’t predict the outcomes if you do decide to give it a try. It might seem like a logical and pragmatic solution to be in love with two people at once, but limerence is an altered state of mind that addles your judgement. Think of it like a drunk making decisions about risk taking.
Many limerents find that instead of a pleasing compromise, the attempt to open the marriage to include LO results in the deterioration of all bonds. Their feelings don’t align with their intentions. They cannot balance everyone’s needs. People get jealous and their emotions don’t do what they expected.
But the damage that my foolish stint thinking my LE meant polyamory was the right choice did to our relationship is immense and we really, REALLY could have done without my flailing attempts to fix things leading me there. Limerence describes the horrible, heady experience SO much more accurately and I’m sitting here feeling real damn regretful I didn’t learn THIS terminology a decade ago.
FnFn
Even when an already poly limerent meets a new LO, the sailing is not always smooth. The best case scenario is that the LO is happy to be included into the existing relationship network in a way that suits everyone involved. That should work well. However if the LO is not interested in this option, it can create new heartache for the poly limerent. Just like a monogamous union, the only ethical option is to forsake the LO, or torture yourself with trying to keep a friends with benefits set up going with someone you are emotionally craving with limerent intensity.
Finally, the other issue just from a logical perspective is how often you can integrate new LOs. Limerence is typically resolved over a period of a few months if it is reciprocated and you are able to consummate romantic and sexual desire. After that time, in classic polyamory, you would have two long-term commitments. If you meet a third LO, are they incorporated too? There must be a limit to the process. At some point you will have to accept that you cannot continue to bond with new LOs.
What limerence means
A lot of these difficulties, a lot of these unintended consequences, are due to the fundamental nature of limerence. It is a deep, powerful drive to pair bond. The euphoric reward of limerence is focused on a specific person, who becomes supernaturally desirable. During the intensity of early limerence, the giddy intoxication is so powerful that other relationships are lacklustre in comparison. The love you still feel for a partner is so profoundly different from the exhilaration of limerence that it takes intellectual discipline to try and balance the two drives.
Limerence is a force for prioritising one romantic partner over all other opportunities. Trying to hold an existing bond in stasis while you forge a new one is an implicit admission that you have spare capacity to take on a new commitment. By definition, you are no longer “all in” on the original relationship.
When your spouse feels insecure and wants you to cancel your date with LO and provide them with emotional support, you may think “yes, that is what we agreed and I must honour that commitment”, but your limerent brain will be screaming “No! I want LO! I was looking forward to LO! I don’t want to disappoint LO! LO might leave me!”
Which is more likely to result – a calm conversation about how to compromise and a laugh about how tricky poly life can be, or an argument?
The emotional assault of limerence is bubbling up from the same part of the brain that throws men into a murderous rage of jealousy when they fear their mate is fraternising with a competitor. Adopting polyamory to try and solve limerence is intellectualising a reason why the primitive drive of limerence should be affirmed, while all the other primitive drives in everyone else involved should be held in check.
Not many people can pull that off.
“ Adopting polyamory to try and solve limerence is intellectualising a reason why the primitive drive of limerence should be affirmed, while all the other primitive drives in everyone else involved should be held in check.”
Well said, Dr L!
A recent commenter talked about how opening his marriage to polyamory resulted in unexpected problems. I will post a link to his story.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-a-marriage-recover-from-limerence/#comment-58602
I have never seen a polyamorous relationship withstand the test of time. I have seen many monogamous relationships last a lifetime.
Lovisa,
” I have seen many monogamous relationships last a lifetime.”
That doesn’t mean it was a good relationship. Not divorcing is not necessarily a good barometer of success.
I am sure there are people who happily married, and happily married for a lifetime. But there a lot of other people who just stay married. I’ve seen it in my own family.
Hi Marcia,
“ I am sure there are people who happily married, and happily married for a lifetime.”
You are correct! There are many couples who remained happy for a lifetime. I am surrounded by neighbors who are like this. Let me tell you a story.
Last Friday, my neighbor saw me cleaning out my flower beds so he yelled from his car window, “Your flowers are beautiful, [Lovisa]! Are you interested in some extra work?” I stopped with my gardening and leaned into his car, “I would love to help out with your yard work. I’m not good at it, so I’ll need lots of instructions.” He chuckled. It turns out that he wasn’t serious, he hires out his home maintenance, he just wanted to pay me a compliment. He is in his early nineties and his wife died a few months ago. He wanted to talk about her. I listened with delight. His wife had been friends with the woman who planted all my roses. (I don’t deserve credit for my beautiful yard because our fruit trees and perennials were there when we bought our house). My neighbor shared some cute stories about the woman who used to own my house and my neighbor’s recently deceased wife. He misses his wife a lot. The reason he passed my house that day is because he was heading back home from the cemetery. He has hanging flower baskets at her grave which he waters every day. Isn’t that beautiful? There are many couples in my community who had/have a long, loving marriage.
Is polyamory a solution to limerence?
Polyamory may turn to limerence… see the following case;
“Wife swap fantasy turned obsession and murder.”
Site: True crime cases studio
It’s safer to look for healing somewhere else:
Video: “HOW TO LOVE YOURSELF INTO HEALING but not become a narcissist (compilation)
Site: Prof. Sam VAkNIM
From today’s Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2024/06/23/carolyn-hax-polyamorous-daughter-adopt/&ved=2ahUKEwjOwc7R1fGGAxXsEFkFHVGWAoEQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0kIyiVACysSEZyAdxTohRj
I like Carolyn Hax. I also like the captioned illustrations done by her ex-husband Nick.
In trying to link the article, I Googled polyamory. It came up several times in her articles.
There’s nothing really new in Hax’ article but it does show how complex and potentially polarizing the subject can be.
I like Carolyn Hax. She has a very fair and progressive way of looking at relationships.
As a few of you know already during my midlife crisis last summer I had my worst LE with a coworker while having a PA with a different coworker. I tried to be honest and open with my spouse about what was happening to me and we had many difficult conversations, but many of them were entered with logic and reasoning and some of what is discussed and considered in this blog post had been topics entertained in our conversations. I was also in therapy at the time and I was able to ascertain with my therapist that I would prefer an open marriage, not just for myself, of course, but also my spouse… he once had a coworker that I thought would make a great partner for him, and though he never understood this, I always found his attraction to other women as a big turn-on. I hated the fact that he hardly ever seemed to notice other women and I grew to loathe his intense loyalty and devotion because, as I would eventually work out with my therapist, my spouse had early in our marriage began to close himself off to the world and all other relationships and now he’s an isolated immigrant with no relationships in this country save myself and our two sons. On the other hand I am engaged in life and yearning for experiences still and no other experience in this earthly life holds a candle to relating to others. Father Ronald Rolheiser says in a few of his books about spirituality and sex that there is no greater form of communication between a man and a woman than sex. This is true, or it’s certainly a truth, from a biological level at least.
So last summer I proposed an open marriage and to my surprise my husband considered it and he even emailed a barista we once enjoyed talking to several years back during our morning coffee runs. The young woman is roughly 4-5 years older than our older son (to be fair my LO was 15 years my senior). But I think I threw my husband off when I said, “She’s very lovely and sweet, but she’s in her prime fertility and financially insolvent… Make sure she knows you’re not the least bit interested in having more children and sharing from our estate.”
He did go on to meet her a few times, but each time he ended the conversation sounding and acting like a father figure, giving her career and education advice and he returned to me racked with guilt and disgust and I held him in my arms and told him it was okay. I had no expectation that he had to start dating other women. And he cried and sobbed in my arms saying, “I just want you! I just want my wife!”.
Lord have mercy on us…
Well, this has become my cross to carry, at least until I get old and frail and incapable of feeling the invigorating desires of this life. My truth is that I would very much prefer to involve myself with other men still, and entangle sexuality into it and I will continue to stay open to some emotional intimacy with men, because if I had to deny all interaction and desire with men I would fall into a great pit of despair and hopelessness. My husband is content but for me marriage amounts to little besides some stimulating lectures, assets, isolation and loneliness.
But here is the reality … my isolation and loneliness would probably go away if I had more female relatives: mothers, aunts, sisters, daughters…. I think it was in The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler (though it might have been Gaia and God by Rosemary Ruether) where I read that most of the higher primates are matrifocal, meaning that throughout life females tend to stay with other females of her blood line. As she reaches sexual maturity a female might pair-bond with a particular male and this coupling can last awhile even, but these male-female bond tends to break and the female will instinctually return to her female line with its more enduring and reciprocating relationships. The author also mentioned that females tend to collect food not just for herself, but to share with members of her bloodline whereas males are far more likely to eat on their own and not bring back anything to share. I chuckled at this… little wonder the ladies stick together!
The reason why I remember this so well is because while I read these books I was beginning to pack to visit a second home I had just bought sight-unseen across the street from my sister who lives in another state…
It was a conscious decision: Instead of having affairs and exhausting my energies on ultimately fruitless interactions with men I was going to patch up and nurture the relationship with my one and only relative.
It’s working okay-ish. I know society, my sister, my husband and my kids much, much prefer I keep my attention on them and I oblige, but yeah, there really is no other feelings on this planet than those involved pair-bonding. Kinda sad it has to happen so early in life….
Thank-you! I found your post very moving. I appreciate your honesty. And I believe you really got to the heart of the issue – it just isn’t simple is it. It’s not just a matter of needing new attractions and seeking adventure and/or stimulation. It’s about connection, and feeling like a person has enough back-up – enough intimate reciprocal relationships, that are based on care and support. One just isn’t enough. Women need a tribe.
Your wrote your thoughts and feelings so beautifully, thank-you. Your husband is a good man. And you are a good woman!
I think it’s subjective and cultural. I don’t think there’s any right or wrong but from a Buddhist perspective, adding more fuel to the fire doesn’t put out the fire so I think it would be difficult for anybody to be satisfied in Polyamory. You would always want more.
In my LE I’m feeling a lot of guilt too because I’ve grown up with conservative beliefs and I couldn’t accept that a married person can have strong feelings for someone. I don’t have a right answer but in my case I’m trying to control my desires and urges or channel them into other pursuits like work/projects. There are really creepy examples on polyamorous where things really go out of hand and harm many people.
On the NC with my LO, it’s going well – I’ve resisted. But my chest pain is very much there every day and I actually saw him in the neighbourhood. He didn’t acknowledge me though (we didn’t cross paths frontally so it was an easy escape). My heart was broken though and I am trying to find other hobbies or meet friends. But can’t trust anyone outside my therapist as my friends can be judgemental and one deserted me when I confided in her about my LE. She still ghosts me.
Some years ago when the boys were much younger that subject got broached. I don’t remember if it was Momma or myself that brought it up; a third person. Yeah THAT conversation. I don’t think my feelings have changed about that happening. Yet in ways I forced polyamory in our marriage being limerent.
I would say that polyamory as I understand it, coming into the picture AFTER limerence has set in is all about justification. My saving grace, well was Momma, but also that LO had no interest in anything more than being co-workers.
But the most I remember about inviting a third person all those years ago when we talked about it more than once, was overwhelming feelings of jealous and inadequacy on my part. What if he was better? What if SHE was better? What if she was so good my wife had a sexual epiphany and I was no longer in the picture? Did Momma think these things while I was limerent?
Younger me was very much like SJ’s husband. I had no eyes or desire for anyone else but Momma. Sure I could notice attractive women, but it never went past observation. And when SJ said when her husband finally did meet this young lady that he played the father figure. Sounds about me with LO. A mix of rescue complex and trying to help her reset her path in life after what happened in her marriage. “Adam you’ve been married 23 years you would know ….” “Adam you have grown kids you would know ….” That felt better than the actual euphoria of limerence. I was useful. What I said mattered to her.
I am the same way with Momma. When she yanks me to her when we are dozing off to sleep together. Or when she can’t sleep at night but still wants me near her. When she tells me she feels safe when I am close to her. When she squeezes my hand tightly in public when a questionable man walks past us.
My limerence was the self medication for the heart as alcohol is to the mind. A distraction. What are you trying to forget, avoid, not talk about or ignore? Cause that other woman … oh yeah she is exciting. But that woman that has stood by your side … what about her? How about talk to her. Tell her what you are feeling. Don’t get so drunk on limerence you face plant on the limerent sidewalk and have to deal with now life lasting damage. I literally did this weekend and now I have a forever chipped front incisor.
I was pretty much described by Dr L in that I was playing around with the idea of polyamory to keep LO in my life without needing to rock the boast with SO. I think by the time you are already limerant, it is too late to then turn to polyamory. Any form of Ethical/Consensual Non-Monogamy is a remarkably complex social and sexual arrangement that requires remarkable communication skills. People tend to hide the intensity of limerence. If you have an anchor/primary partner, it’s going to be hard to lay the ground rules when your brain is trying to maximize access to LO. Polyamory or ENM seems to work best where the primary partner (if there is one) feels utterly secure about the commitment of his or her partner to them. Knowing your spouse is in limerence for someone else may be too much for them to reach the level acceptance needed to consent to include others.
I am glad my SO and I never did polyamory at the time. We were in no mind-space to actually set it up well.
Just wanted to share an update. My feelings with respect to LO have been fairly stable for the past couple of months, mostly due to NC (I think). However, there has been a setback. There was an LO message, and I got an anxiety attack and have been feeling low. Things were going so well, and I suddenly hit a bump. At this point, I am really committed to the recovery process, and do not want to seek LO, but these setbacks are really frustrating. I wonder if I will ever stop feeling like this – feeling low after LO exposure. Its like I know with NC I will keep feeling better and better, but the exposure really makes me feel not good.
Thanks for listening!
Look forward to your comments and advice.
Hi ABCD,
funny that you post that now, I also was doing quite well and had some kind of setback. Recently the main feeling I struggled with,because I saw it as a sign of dependency, was a kind of resentment („why is he not the sensitive caring reciprocating LO I imagined“, basically). Then I met LO last week, which was nice, any resentment vanished immediately, I just saw someone I like really much. Then afterwards after one nice text (including kissing emoji, Imho..)he got kind of very restrained in texts, and of course I started to ruminate why. This led to getting back to feeling a yearning for his person, but actually without the heavy pain of limerence. Yesterday that still led to me texting something too nice and now I’m kind of back on track.
Seems my inner limerent needed to make sure he knows I like him once again to be at peace. It’s a strange back and forth, and I do have the advantage of knowing he‘ll be gone soon, that’s why I allow myself a bit indulgence now.
But AbCD, I think a big part is how you see it. Don’t see it as a major setback. It’s just a short stumble, it doesn’t destroy everything you managed before. Just shake yourself down and go on.
I think getting miserable and feeling weak because you reacted on her message isn’t helping. Of course you would react on it, it’s not a big relapse, I think from my restricted perspective.
Thanks Mila. It is really fascinating the games that our limerent minds play. I also recall the back and forth between us, it is not happening now, and I do not miss it. I get what you mean when you say that sending or receiving a “signal” makes you feel good. It has happened to me.
You are right, of course, I am over reacting to this. I think that from now on, I need to devise a strategy of reacting to contact with her, both real and virtual, both one way and two way. Hopefully, I will get to a point where the exposure does not bother me much. At least, I feel good during periods of NC, which is a big improvement, imho.
So, I am just going to shrug this off and keep moving.
ABCD
I happen to look up on Facebook the new recruit we have at work. She’s been working for about a month and I have talked to her all of two times over the phone. She tends to send emails to communicate what she needs to with me.
The thing is my intention of going on Facebook wasn’t to see if she had a page. It was to see LO. I distracted myself with looking her up as while she has a common first name her last name is quite unique so I am sure it was her that I found. As well as her location in her bio jives with where she works. She is young and married. With two young children. Probably neither older than 3-4 years old from the pictures she’s posted. I thought about how much I don’t miss those days. Those are the hard years trying to take care of two children. They were such sweet pictures of laughing smiling babies and parents. I closed out my browser and totally forgot why I got on Facebook in the first place.
There will always be setbacks and temptations. It’s how you handle them and recover from them that matters. Take it from someone that use to flog myself for it. And still do sometimes. As many would say to me at the start of coming here; be kind to yourself.
Hi ABCD, good advice from others. I guess you know these moments will happen, they are out of your control, and it’s just being accepting that they will come and you don’t know when.
Let them come and let them pass by.
I know it’s easier said than done. And accepting you will be triggered ( as you are human with feelings) but hopefully less each time.
@Mila,
sorry you also had bit of a moment too. I think the resentment thing is just a way the brain (and heart) uses to protect oneself and not slide back into heady emotions when we are not seeing them so often. It’s not rational but it works.
“texting something too nice”- made me giggle a bit and wonder what could be too nice.
I’m not exactly doing well either. I’m better when I’m occupied and/or away.
The celebration work event is coming soon and there will be photos from it without me there. It’s funny, as one part of me is sad I’m not there and the other part is really relieved.
It’s triggering me a bit.
I will wish him a good time and leave it at that. Sigh !
(PS. Dr L. will not be happy this conversation is not in the coffeehouse…)
Hi Imho,
too nice, well🙈I mean, showing him too much that I care, I basically told him I miss him. He responded to that with heart-eyed Emojis and a response to my other, unrelated subject of the text.
Now, how do we stand to heart-eyed Emojis vs kissing Emojis, Imho?🙈
The truth is, it doesn’t matter or shouldn’t matter. I immediately felt I did too much again and haven’t texted since and seem to be out of this bout of yearning. No, I didn’t ghost him, I just did what he did for the last week, just not answering a text at some point, it’s ok I think.
Sorry to hear that you are a bit thrown back , but it’s actually normal to worry a bit about this event. It might really be a good thing you are not there, is what I think! And they will miss out on a really nice guest (not guest. Don’t know the word)
I wonder also if Bewitched‘s event is coming up soon.
Sorry Dr L, you can just relocate this thread to a coffeehouse.
Mila,
Oh I see. I think it’s a genuine and obvious that you will miss him.
And I’m sure he will too. Seems you got a balance on the frequency of messaging.
As you say, it’s ok and not overthink why you didn’t get a response to some comment and vice versa.
Now on the emoji question, I googled it 🙄!!
This is the answer that I align with most :
“While a heart eye emoji shows your love for something, a kissy face emoji demonstrates your love for someone.”
But of course, everyone’s definition of emojis is different.
Thanks for the supportive words Mila. It’s just hard when others are now saying they are ‘looking forward to meeting LO again after such a long time and such a shame Imho you aren’t coming’ , as he is one of team that is furthest away.
I am also thinking of Bewitched today. Best wishes to her if reading this.
Hi Imho,
Thank you for googling it😍! It kind of fits my opinion, although no idea what LO means by it. Actually, just as I wrote a response to you a couple of hours earlier, he called.
Since I called him yesterday,and then as he didn’t pick up and tried to call back later, I wrote the „just called because I missed you“(other words, same meaning)text, it shows how he meticulously keeps even. It’s his personality.
Might see him on the weekend. I‘m quite at peace with this at the moment, I heed Lost in Space‘s words that the last memories should be warm and nice instead of resentful and cold.
Do you have something nice lined up to take your thoughts away from the upcoming event?
I think to tell you that it’s a shame that you are not coming is a bit insensitive since you didn’t choose not to come…
But never mind, as I told you, they won’t have that much of a good time without you💪🏻
Maybe Bewitched sits at her LO‘s table at the very moment…
Thanks guys,
I am having a set back myself, which is inevitable, I suppose. We have met and I am processing it. This time was a different vibe this time from numerous times before. I feel that I was calmer, which was good, but maybe even more entrenched (which is not so good).
I met his SO. Oh boy, that was hard. I introduced myself to the SO and was as ‘normal’ as possible. I didn’t do anything to be ashamed of, or embarrassed by, which I am glad about.
I don’t really know what to think or write. Its all futile anyway is what I keep telling myself and not to overthink anything. LO was very kind and we were on the same wavelength, as usual. There is a work team and things tend to get a bit intense between us at times, (arguing, agreeing, interacting basically). It was exhausting keeping my eyes down and trying to stay ‘closed’ – which is acting out of character (for me, as I am a very open character normally).
All in all, its a set-back seeing him, for sure. Its torture, actually. I can barely manage to keep my eyes away from him and my thoughts under control. But, with time away from f2f, it will improve. It always does. Especially as he is rubbish in virtual interactions.
I am seriously wondering whether I need to be hypnotised out of this.
Sorry I am rambling.
Bewitched,
It already happened!!
Well done, I say. You survived. Did you like his SO? Did you think he felt completely at ease with both of you there?
Ok, maybe it was inevitable to have a rush of feelings afterwards, but don’t you also see some stuff you don’t like now that you were closer to him and his house?(that’s what I hoped for.)
Please don’t answer any questions, I’m just excited.
I don’t quite understand, there is a f2f work thing in a team still going on at the moment?
Hi Mila,
I really liked his SO. As far as I could tell, she’s great. I think he’s lucky to have her. If I had to describe his demeanor, I would say that he was ill at ease. But I was eyes down and talking to others, staying out of harm’s way. There were plenty of other people about and it was neutral territory, in the end, so not too difficult from that perspective. There are some other details that I wont go into, that showed how much he cares for me and others foe which I am grateful. He made a massive effort, basically. It was nice, very mature, really, all-round. It was some weeks ago which explains why have been so quiet on here at LwL. I am processing it still because I know that I will not see him again for ages. I had been contemplating never seeing him again, but that’s less likely now. Because our interactions can be rare enough and sporadic. I could probably manage it to never see or hear from him again, work-wise, and I might still try to make that happen, but only if I start feeling unbearable. I am not feeling unbearable. But I am feeling wistful, thwarted, unsatisfied…. all things which I am determined to overcome. I should probably just bite the bullet and go complete ‘cold turkey’…
God this limerence is a real beast to overcome.
Sorry not to be more upbeat….
Bewitched,
you don’t have to be upbeat here of all places!
I can imagine how you feel.
So it’s in your hands if you work with him or not? Tough.
Maybe you can manage without getting that drastic. But I don’t know.
I don’t have much advice for you, not being a heroine of NC and actively ending LEs myself, but I do know that time will help you. It might take longer because you don’t see him that much, but I think there will come a point where you‘ve had enough, and I mean really enough.
In the meantime, maybe you could see the upside that he seems to have a great SO and you‘ve got a great SO, everybody is lucky and healthy. I know that sounds ironic but it isn’t.
Hey Mila,
“I think there will come a point where you‘ve had enough, and I mean really enough.
In the meantime, maybe you could see the upside that he seems to have a great SO and you‘ve got a great SO, everybody is lucky and healthy. I know that sounds ironic but it isn’t.”
This is really helpful. On the first part of it, you are right. I can easily imagine that one day I will say “enough” and need to end it for my own good. It hasnt happened yet after several years because I tend to recover myself in the periods between our f2f interactions.
But equally, ideally I would prefer to grow out of it and just be happy for him (and me) that we are both good without needing to take drastic measures (such as completely cutting all work ties).
We clearly are attracted to one another, but that is not a crime. We are not acting on it.
My mind is reading into some of his actions, which always gives me that rollercoaster of emotions. Though it is not as bad this time as it has been in the past. I know very well that I need to stop reading into things so much as I will just feel worse. I also need to stop reliving those crazy moments of communion with him. … they will fade from memory, and sooner than I think. I really feel as though I need to talk to someone, though (not LO or SO, obvs). The burden of this is heavy.
Hi Bewitched,
„ My mind is reading into some of his actions, which always gives me that rollercoaster of emotions. “
I know that very well, I did that too with LOs. While I wasn’t always completely wrong interpreting, I sometimes was misjudging the underlying intensity of intent or emotion. I invested every little sign of mutuality with heavy meaning, or thought they felt exactly the same way as me, while they did feel something, but in their own way and not as intense or with the same intent as me.
Maybe you could find someone anonymous to talk about it? I‘ve never been to a therapist, but isn’t that what they are there for? We tend to play it down and fight it completely alone, but limerence is a burden as heavy as other mental burdens.
Hi Bewitched,
It’s frustrating isn’t it these disruptive f2f interactions that you can’t simply let go of afterwards, and the thoughts and interpretations carry on.
You did good for getting through it so well.
It’s funny you mentioned the word hypnotised. I literally had the same thought earlier yesterday…. ‘I wonder if hypnosis is still a thing to break habits’.
Maybe Mila is right and seek a therapist. Especially as it’s been several years for you. maybe it’s time. Do you have EAP at your work place. I have one but I’m bit nervous to use it, but I am told its fully confidential.
Hi IMHO. Thanks for your message. Yes, I really need to be better prepared to handle these moments, and try not to get too perturbed by them. Lately, LO has been triggering me a lot, though she is not doing it not on purpose (I think), but as you said – it is not in my control, what is in my control is how I reach to it, so that is something I need to work on. Will keep you all updated how everything goes, thanks!
Dear Imho & Mila,
Thank you both for your understanding. My heart goes out to both of you too. Imho – you said that perhaps I should seek a counsellor, and maybe I should. If I am honest, I think what holds me back is that I think I can predict exactly what they would say and how I would react. I mean, its an addiction so I really need to want to stop. And I do, sort of. But as long as its only ‘sort of’, I can’t be fixed. What’s the point in therapy? Also, I have zero interest in delving into my past formative attachments. That’s just something in the rear-view mirror of my life. I know why the LE hit (as I have said before) and its also a time-of-life thing. As I am confident that I will never fall for another LO, I feel that I just need to let the current one grind to a halt and then I will be free.
There is no logic to this addiction of mine but I know why it happened. What makes things harder is I know my LO likes me (who knows how much). He has circumstances that lock him away, as do I. They are not changing, I wouldn’t even want them to, so its all futile. Its not rocket science, all I have to do is minimise fantasy and rumination, and that’s it. Its so much easier said than done but I need to believe that I can do it.
Imho – about this work trip that you are not going on – firstly, you have my deep and lasting sympathy. I can easily imagine exactly how you feel, or how I would feel, if one of the very rare work trips that lead to f2f interactions with my LO were to suddenly stop. I would take that very hard, especially hearing about the trip from others. I think you mentioned before that you get regular calls with your LO (sometimes even initiated by him) that you probably rely on instead. He seems a stable one in this regard and I imagine that’s what’s got you holding on, rather than the trips where you would be sharing him. Chin up, old girl! Its maybe a blessing in disguise not to be seeing him in person (if my experience of f2f is anything to go by).
Thanks Bewitched.
A lot of similarities. I’ve been toying with counselling but never done it for lots of reasons, some of them you noted too. Really don’t want some childhood deep dive.
Yup, one has to really want to let go to progress.
For me the lack of frequency is a driving factor. If he called every week I think I would get more certainty and become true friends as the conversation would inevitably become more mundane rather than highly anticipated.
And the yearning to see him f2f is on maximum right now, until the event is over I guess. It’s been a long time and the reality is I may not see him ever again and even if I did he will probably just think “Imho has aged a lot” ha ha !
Gotta laugh at this nonsense , right ?!
Imho,
„I may not see him ever again and even if I did he will probably just think “Imho has aged a lot” ha ha !“
Well, you might think the same about him;)or he might be afraid of that too!
I‘m with you both with not wanting any deep-diving into childhood. Actually at the moment I think I can manage this by myself. But my LO will soon move much more to the periphery of my life, it’s easier for me.
I‘m not sure if it the limerence would vanish if you had regular contact. I did have regular contact, didn’t help that much. But everyone is limerent for different reasons and has different triggers, I guess.
Hey Mila & Imho,
“But everyone is limerent for different reasons and has different triggers, I guess.”
I know that I dont necessarily want a life with my LO. But I physically want him quite badly. This is a novelty because there are almost no men that I like in that way anymore. I actually still fancy my SO. But with the LO there is mystery too. I just know that if I had met him in my single days, we would definitely have hooked up – I would probably have dragged it out a little. To build the suspense. But it wpuld have happened. And the feeling I am so addicted to may be that place in my head where the memories of that time in my life (the time of exploration and freedom) is reawakened. Its a mid life thing. I also like him enormously as a person, so there is that too. I would feel quite safe with him.
Mila,
“I‘m not sure if it the limerence would vanish if you had regular contact.”
Yes, maybe you are right as didn’t help you. It’s unlikely to happen unless we start working in the same team. That would be a challenge.
Bewitched,
What you wrote above – same! Except I think my LO is physically a bit out of my league. But then my SO was too!
„ I know that I dont necessarily want a life with my LO. But I physically want him quite badly“
That was always the case with my LOs. It’s also what keeps me from returning to normal friendship with current LO, I‘m physically attracted when I see him f2f, and every time surprised by that since he isn‘t really my type or a very physical person.
We should bear in mind that this attraction is also a fabrication of our mind, and in my case, that hormones/age/perimenopause are also dancing their dance here.
„ Except I think my LO is physically a bit out of my league. But then my SO was too!“
Imho! You have to work on your self-confidence. Out of your league? What league? What the hell?
Apparently you are in their league.
Ha ha, thanks Mila for the pep talk 😘
Wish I just fancied lots of men in passing (nothing important or special) like some of my female friends but I don’t, never have.
This way of mind probably limits the potential for a LE.
I think us limerents are just more selective and prone to appropriating specialness to those few people we intrinsically connect with on all levels : emotionally, intellectually and physically.
That’s why it’s hard to let go, as LO fulfills all of these and it’s so rare (at least for me in my lifetime).
Imho,or was it Bewitched,
on the point of regular contact: regular contact lulls you into the belief that this is a genuine warm normal friendship – and, in my case, lead me back to believing again in the old illusory picture of sensitive, caring and also reciprocating (in the sense of „you are more special to me than any other friend“, which he actually told me)LO, – and if that regular contact gets an irregularity, you are immediately suffering because you were dependent on it without noticing.
I‘m actually not suffering , but I got pulled back into warm contact and now he doesn’t answer on a question for days- a sign that he’s busy but also that answering me isn’t a priority at all- and it woke me up again to the real picture of him- not that sensitive, a bit egotistical without noticing it himself, not very perceptive.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame him, he can take as much time to answer as he likes. I just blame myself for sliding back into wrong thinking/feeling.
And wanted to point out to you that regular contact doesn’t seem to do any good sometimes…
Dear Imho,
“Wish I just fancied lots of men in passing (nothing important or special) like some of my female friends but I don’t, never have.
…..
I think us limerents are just more selective and prone to appropriating specialness to those few people we intrinsically connect with on all levels : emotionally, intellectually and physically.
That’s why it’s hard to let go, as LO fulfills all of these and it’s so rare (at least for me in my lifetime).”
Yes me too – my SO fits the bill, actually. And this is something that I have only just realised about myself. If I look back on my life, there were so few men that I really fancied physically. I have had relationships for years with men that I did not fancy physically because they made a great emotional match. But I eventually and quite painfully figured out that did not work on the long term so those relationships ended after maybe 4/5 years.
@Mila you wrote: “a sign that he’s busy but also that answering me isn’t a priority at all- and it woke me up again to the real picture of him”
You are so spot on about the priorities bit here! LOs in this situation are just behaving like normal people in a normal situation – something we’d hardly second guess if another friend did it. But it hits very hard because it is so at odds with how we as the limerent would naturally behave faced with the same situation (we’d respond pretty instantly unless we were strong enough to be meet behaviour with behaviour and wait).
Observing stuff like with my LO like this occurrence of yours has been really powerful (though at the time painful) at helping me start to separate the reality from the stuff in my head. I’d recommend anyone else struggling with the same tries to key into it.
Hi Bewitched,
seems we are quite similar.
Yes, physical attraction is important to a lasting relationship in my experience too. For me it has to be instant, never a slow-grow.
You said
” my SO fits the bill, actually.”
Yey…and he still fits the bill Bewitched ! That is so good for a long term relationship, you are blessed.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
the problem is that my LO keeps reversing the signs and making me doubt again – I think he notices that I get more restrained, trying to match his behavior, and this time for example he called me suddenly (I couldn’t pick up) and then asked if we watch football together on the weekend etc.
Which I won’t. I‘ll still see him, but with other people.
So he isn’t consistent with his „you are not my priority“ behavior. I still think he is reciprocating and maybe having a few struggles like me, but not in the intensity I had them.
Still, you are right, it’s good to notice these moments where dream-LO would react caringly and doesn’t react at all. It wakes one up to reality.
Hi Mila,
Ah yes I think you’re describing the infamous ‘dance’ here, aren’t you? One pulls back a bit and the other is reeled further back in. Reverse, rinse and repeat!
If you think the LE is a bit reciprocal with this friend and it’s gone on a while, do you ever wonder if you have both kind of ‘disclosed without disclosing’ through the dance manouevres and other non-verbal signals etc? I sometimes wonder if it has happened with my LO; at other times tell myself it is just my limerence-addled brain skewing my thoughts and that in fact it is non-mutual.
I think this is what it is like with me and my LO but still wonder at times if I am blinded by the limerent brain and it may not be at all mutual. If I trust my gut instinct, then signals have passed and it leaves a situation something like “we both know it’s there, we both know we can never speak of it or act on it, we need to just manage it like responsible adults with barriers”. So it feels sort of safe in the knowledge that neither will disclose or push the boundaries (and the other would pull back if that gets closer). And because it feels safe, not to mention nice and colourful at the good points, that stops either party taking the decisive steps (NC or LC) to end the dance. It is fertile ground for limbo.
Not at all trying to imply your experience is the same, just curious on this point about ‘disclosure in all but name’ as we’ve established in both cases that our LOs are really long term friends pre-LE.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I had and have this feeling of mutual limerence and disclosure through non-verbal actions or, to be more correct, I‘m quite sure that we both know that there‘s a bit more than friendship involved, but at the same time I’m quite sure that he doesn’t analyze it or ruminate about it, he refuses to think of it as something not so innocent or even dangerous, he would always put the label „friendship“on it and never acknowledge for himself that it might be more. It wouldn’t fit the view he has of himself as a person.
At the same time, he texts and connects with me in a frequency and sometimes intimacy that really exceeds friendship. He just closes his eyes before that. One must know him to understand that. He‘s like that.
I think he‘s limerent or has got feelings or needs me, but in another way from how I feel or need. I‘m much more impulsive, intense and also physical (which is funny because compared to other people I‘m quite reticent, not at all impulsive etc, it’s only in comparison to him,since he‘s a really shut-off person).
So it’s mutual but not mutual.
I think this special kind of dance is only possible with this particular person, he‘s really something else and an exasperating guy.
I think I wrote it before- the result of f2f meetings depends on my expectations before, it always contradicts them a bit.
The meeting before last one (penultimate, frederico?;) I was not expecting to still feel physical attraction because I had only this feeling of resentment in me, and was surprised by still being attracted. So this time I expected to feel connection and attraction and didn’t. Which is good for my state of mind now, I’m calm and ok.
I still think I can keep him as a friend, especially because he moves away. We are both loyal people and don’t forget easily.
Thanks for explaining Mila!
It does seem a fairly unique dance in your case but I think I sort of get it. My LO is also less ‘into it’ than me, if into it at all, not just an unknowing participant (I just don’t know, my head and heart tell me different things, but it is irrelevant really as nothing will or can come of it).
Something to add to your point on expectations of encounters. I think what we’re feeling influences our behaviour which influences what we get back. Lower expectation means we behave cooler which causes them to behave warmer, and vice versa with higher expectation.
‘The dance’ is spot on as a metaphor.
You seem to be on a good plan for a dignified exit into getting something resembling your old friendship back. Maybe him moving away really helps. I take heart from your story anyhow.
And Yes to ‘penultimate’! 🙂
Hi Lim-a-rant,
„I think what we’re feeling influences our behaviour which influences what we get back. Lower expectation means we behave cooler which causes them to behave warmer, and vice versa with higher expectation.“
I just wrote a reply telling you that while this is true, it’s not that much for my LO because he is pretty much the same all the time, it’s me who’s dancing around him.
But then it got me thinking- it’s like with the intensity of limerence, I think he does react on my expectations, only on a very small scale.
Yes, I‘m quite hopeful to turn this into a limerence-free friendship again.
He called me yesterday to tell me about some problems they’ve got with moving (I asked by text), and we are on a nice warm but not exciting-too warm level.
It definitely helps that he‘s moving away. But then, if he wouldn’t have left my workplace, I might have not become limerent, it was the fear of losing him.
I think, in absolute lay‘s terms, if there are neuronal pathways that limerence lays and it’s easy to get back into their ruts again, then in our case there must be neuronal pathways from non-limerent friendship, and there’s a chance to get back to them too.
It might be complete b..shit science-wise, but it still helps to believe in that.
@Mila.
So many wise words. 😛
I like how you want to plot a middle path, and avoid extremes of emotion when navigating your limerence. I like how you counsel others to take a measured approach, too.
Limerence can be like a pond. In reality, the pond is clear and calm. There are no waves on the water. Still, limerence can trick our minds into believing a storm is happening, and there’s all these huge waves. Sometimes, the storm is mostly inside our own heads. 😉
Sometimes, the best way to calm one’s nervous system is to do nothing at all, and to realise there’s no need for action, because there’s no emergency (other than the emergency inside the limerent’s own brain, which is a private and individual matter).
Limerence sometimes is just an illusion generated by powerful brain chemicals and pleasant-but-not-necessarily-reliable fantasies. Once one can see the illusion for what it is – an illusion – one has a much better chance of being able to break free. The feeling of enchantment is something added to reality, and not reality itself.
“The meeting before last one (penultimate, frederico?;)…”
Ah, I’d say you’re doing frederico proud. You used the word “penultimate” correctly here. Well done! 🙂
Hi Sammy,
thanks, I had such stormy phases in my last LEs that I’m quite scared of stormy, emergency -like emotions, maybe that’s why I try to talk myself and others into calmer waters.
Concerning „penultimate“, Latin was my best subject in school, so no need to explain latin-based words to me, I struggle more with „normal“ English..
@Mila.
“I had such stormy phases in my last LEs that I’m quite scared of stormy, emergency -like emotions, maybe that’s why I try to talk myself and others into calmer waters.”
Limerence caused me to experience some stormy emotions. However, had I known limerence was the source of the ups and down, I probably could have skipped the ups and downs. 🙄
During my LE, the “love story” my brain wanted to tell wasn’t actually happening in reality. So there wasn’t really any valid reason for me to experience up and downs. None of my “stormy emotions” meant that I was getting closer to LO. My LO wasn’t doing any kind of limerent dance with me, but my brain was going crazy anyway.
Limerence is such an odd experience – so much pleasure and so much pain at the same time. At one point in limerence, I went for a walk along the beach with my family. The physical landscape looked really beautiful due to limerence e.g. the sunset, the water, the sand, etc, etc. However, at the same time, I felt this crushing sadness, this extreme pain, this desire to crawl out of my own skin because living in my own skin felt so painful. I felt so alive, but feeling so alive wasn’t great. It’s almost like I felt TOO alive, uncomfortably alive.
In hindsight, I think the acute pain I felt was just a manifestation of the “longing” part of limerence. I didn’t really know I was infatuated during the most intense phases of my infatuation, and I didn’t really know that infatuation was the source of both my pleasure and my pain. (As opposed to, say, age or some other mental state).
“Latin was my best subject in school, so no need to explain latin-based words to me, I struggle more with „normal“ English..”
We don’t learn Latin in Australian schools. Sounds like students in Europe may enjoy a more comprehensive education. 🙂
Sammy,
“Sometimes, the best way to calm one’s nervous system is to do nothing at all, and to realise there’s no need for action, because there’s no emergency (other than the emergency inside the limerent’s own brain, which is a private and individual matter)”
This is so profound and I truly relate. Every little nugget like this that people write on here has helped pull me back from bad decisions and actions with consequences. I am in a calmer state with my LE than I was- even if just a bit, but the bit makes a big difference. I’m slightly more ‘watching myself at one degree removed and a bit of control restored’, thanks in no small part to all the good people here.
@Lim-a-rant.
“Every little nugget … people write on here has helped pull me back from bad decisions and actions with consequences. I am in a calmer state with my LE than I was- even if just a bit, but the bit makes a big difference. I’m slightly more ‘watching myself at one degree removed and a bit of control restored’, thanks in no small part to all the good people here.”
I’m glad you find the contributions on LwL can be helpful. 🙂
I read this description of someone’s limerence experience on Reddit this morning: “… at its height it was a suffocating, crushing feeling of hopelessness, despair and desolation …”
I can relate to that description. I felt all those things, while also feeling that the world was somehow rainbow-tinged at the same time. The madness in my head made me want to run away from my life and family of origin. Run where? I don’t know. Into LO’s arms? Quite possibly. But LO wasn’t waiting for me with open arms. 🙄😁
As I get older, I catch myself reacting differently to attractive people. Pleasant interaction with attractive humans is still a reward. But it’s a very mild reward. It’s not LO-level reward. I feel like a kid who’s seen ice-cream before and eaten ice-cream before. I’m not going to flip out over every bowl of ice-cream I see. But LO felt like the ultimate bowl of ice-cream to a kid deprived on ice-cream. 😉
When in limerence, I either (a) spent all my time thinking about LO or (b) spent all my time thinking about how I could make myself more desirable. I was actually very self-absorbed in that sense. Now, post-limerence, I don’t go to great lengths to make myself appealing. However, I DO notice other people who are trying to ramp up their desirability.
E.g. I saw a young man in his 20s the other day, long and lean, with a tattoo covering two-thirds of one leg. He was wearing shorts that were almost too short (in order to show off his tattoo, presumably). And I thought to myself: “He’s definitely trying to get someone’s attention with all that very expensive, very impressive body art. I wonder if he’s in limerence for some unknown woman?” 🤣
“Run where? I don’t know. Into LO’s arms? Quite possibly. But LO wasn’t waiting for me with open arms.”
@Sammy, LaR,
Crazy how those intense LE moments are fresh as ever in my memory. Like actual fantasy moments of LO in rumination are still so seemingly vivid and real, as if they actually happened and none of them actually did ever happen. Yet the memory lingers and I get sad because they were never real and I wanted them so much to be real. This is the big letdown of limerence. Breadcrumbs of attention with eye contact become all too consuming and uncertainty fuels the fires. I feel like the worst has past but LOs embers will always be glowing and warm. Just like every beautiful thought of her..
@MJ.
“This is the big letdown of limerence. Breadcrumbs of attention with eye contact become all too consuming and uncertainty fuels the fires. I feel like the worst has past but LOs embers will always be glowing and warm. Just like every beautiful thought of her.”
Aw, that’s beautiful, mate. I have no idea what’s you’re raving on about, but it sure sounds poetic, even if I do say so myself! 😁
Do you, um, need a handkerchief or something? 😉
“Do you, um, need a handkerchief or something?”
@Sammy,
If I don’t stop looking at LOs picture, I’m gonna need the whole damn box of Kleenex before long. 😂
MJ
I really hope that’ll be for blowing your nose…
f
@frederico,
I’ll never tell.. 🤣🤣
ewwwww
Now that took a turn…. lol
Oh dear, Dr. L. What are you doing to us? The pictures and their captions just keep getting funnier and funnier… 🙂
As the resident Head of the Thought Police and as the Acting-Head of the Morality Squad, I feel I really should say something. However, I can’t say anything because my poor tummy hurts too much from rolling around on the floor with laughter.
I particularly like the third picture. I can just imagine the awkward silence in the room every time a new person walks in. “Oh no. Not another one! We’re going to have to send someone out to get more donuts. And we’re going to have to start rationing out teabags and toilet paper.”
‘Okay, folks. This is how it’s going to work. Everyone is allowed to use one-sixth of a teabag each. Yup, you heard right – that’s one teabag for every six people. We’ll divvy up loo roll a little differently. All the men in the polycule are entitled to four squares of loo roll each per visit to the john. Women may take upwards of eight squares with them. More, if necessary. Nobody’s asking for details, luv. Just take as much shredded rainforest wood as you need and run. And people who can’t make up their minds regarding gender identity receive six squares apiece.”
I believe the last time I laughed so hard was when I was in tenth-grade Christian Living class in high school. The teacher solemnly informed us that apparently the early church experienced a schism over whether or not Adam – the first human man – possessed a belly button. I couldn’t believe the story was true. And I couldn’t believe my peers took the topic as seriously as my teacher did. I couldn’t believe that anyone – least of all spiritual forebears – could argue over something that to me seemed so trivial and ridiculous. I laughed till the bell rang. 🙂
So if anyone is envious of people who fork out thousands of dollars to send their kids to fancy Christian schools, don’t be. All we did was sit around and have inane discussions about whether prototypical humans were endowed with navel spots. Waste of time and waste of money in many respects, but highly entertaining.
I have no idea why my parents sent me to that place. (It couldn’t have been the still-frozen potato gems the tuckshop sold. It couldn’t have been the limp lettuce leaves or the steamed caterpillars. Was it the mystery meat? Yes, now that I think of it, it must have been the mystery meat! To this day, I don’t know what went in the sausage rolls. And no, don’t tell me – I don’t want to know). 😉
Sammy, YOU are so funny. I was lmao throughout your whole post. Such a delightful little read before I go to bed.. 🤣🤣🤣
Yes, I always look forward to Sammy’s posts! They’re so particularly interesting and funny. They make my day. He surely is my Cyrano de Bergerac!!! I don’t think he realizes how much writing talent he has. Luv you babe!!!
I’m afraid to ask about the steamed caterpillars….Though I heard a similar story at my college… LOL
And doesn’t it make sense that if Adam was made and not born, he wouldn’t have a belly button? 😉
Let’s ask Adam, he should know, I guess;)
@Serial Limerent.
I’m happy that you and other posters weren’t completely mortified by my comments. I DO live in perpetual fear of mortifying myself. I suffer from a relatively rare but extremely debilitating condition that I believe in Australia is referred to in layman’s terms as “foot-in-mouth disease”. 😇
“I’m afraid to ask about the steamed caterpillars….Though I heard a similar story at my college… LOL.”
A piece of cooked broccoli. One of God’s poor, sweet, defenceless little creations from the insect family boiled alive by accident. A horrendous scandal that dragged on for years. Thousands of loyal tuckshop customers traumatised. Counsellors obliged to descend on the school en masse. (Some arrived by helicopter!) I can’t say more. I believe a multimillion-dollar lawsuit is still pending: “Butterfly vs Big Evil Brassica Empire”. 😉
“And doesn’t it make sense that if Adam was made and not born, he wouldn’t have a belly button? 😉”
Oh, yes, indubitably. I couldn’t agree with you more. If the first human Adam were created from mud and not born, as per the Biblical account we find in the Book of Genesis, then of course he’d be down one belly button. I just couldn’t believe we were talking about such a bizarre topic in hushed tones during Christian Living. It was like we were talking about the end of the world. Also, nobody seemed interested in Eve’s belly button. I found the lack of interest in Eve’s belly button **cough, cough** highly sexist. 🙄
My Christian Living teacher noticed me laughing. He was a wonderful man – tall, blond, young, handsome, and very kind. He coached me for touch football. Shame I had no idea what to do with the odd, egg-shaped item he used to fling in my direction for no apparent reason. He was just like: “Yes, laugh on, Sammy. Laugh on.” The other boys in the class were like: “It wasn’t even that funny!” The girls thought I had a “very cute laugh”. 🙂
People say that limerence doesn’t change a person. I disagree. I developed so much LO-related anxiety that I stopped enjoying many mundane school activities that I otherwise would have enjoyed…
For example, in my many years of Christian schooling, I was a very well-behaved kid. You could say I was a model Christian. For some strange reason, I was never chosen to be a prefect. (Discrimination against introverts-with-cute-laughs maybe?) I only got one detention, and that detention was for refusing to participate in chapel. I was eleven years old at the time, and I had an excellent excuse for “peaceful non-participation” in (apparently compulsory) religious worship. On the Almighty’s behalf, I was solemnly protesting a perceived affront to the Almighty. 🤣🤣🤣
The teacher who gave me detention wanted us kids to learn a new song which included the line: “Ooh, Pharaoh, baby, let my people go.” (The song was about Moses leading the Israelites out of captivity in Egypt). I thought the word “baby” in a Christian song supremely disrespectful to the Almighty. I felt the song wasn’t magnificent enough to sing in chapel.
I mean, give me “Handel’s Messiah”. Give me an operatic masterpiece by Mozart or Puccini. Give me a two-hundred-year-old hymn written by some little old blind lady. But I don’t wanna to sing the word “baby” in no church song – not unless we’re singing about the literal “baby Jesus” in a Christmas carol. I have my musical standards, and I’m sure the Almighty has his musical standards too. I was standing up for quality music. 😁
I know that song–It’s a filk of Louie Louie. lol And “foot in mouth disease” is a term used here in America, too. 🙂
@Serial Limerent & Others.
Here’s another anecdote that may amuse. Lately, out of sheer desperation, I have taken to watching TV in the evenings with my elderly father. We watched “Queen Charlotte” together and now we’re working our way through the infamous “Bridgerton” series.
My father is not a mean-spirited man. However, he grew up in an era that was much less “woke” than today. Here is an example of a typical conversation in the Sammy-Sams household these days:
Sammy’s dad: “Ooh, look! There’s another escapee from the West Indies!” (Dad sees the elder Miss Sharma galloping across the screen at the start of Season Two).
Sammy: “Ah, excuse me, sir. With all due respect, I think you should know this show is celebrated the world over for its inclusive casting.”
Sammy’s dad: “That’s what I said!”
Sammy’s sister: (Wanders into living room and overhears conversation) “I’d be happy about the plus-size representation if the plus size character was actually likeable, but she isn’t. Penelope is a horror!”
Sammy’s dad: “Yes, if Bridgerton were realistic, at least half the debutantes would be fat little dumplings just like Miss Penelope is. Unfortunately, we get one short, fat girl in a room full of tall, skinny girls. Am I really supposed to believe that the youngest Feathering daughter is the only overweight member of the ton?”
Sammy’s brother-in-law: (Wanders in living room and glances at the screen). “How come none of the men in this show wear pants? Bless my soul, that fellow forgot to get dressed! And that fellow forgot to get dressed too! And that fellow also! Did Viscountess What’s-her-name not instil in her sons the wisdom of donning trousers early in the morning and staying in said trousers for the entirety of the day? I’m off to watch ‘Game of Thrones’. At least in ‘Game of Thrones’, some of the male characters occasionally wear pants…”
Sammy’s dad. “Ooh, look! There’s another escapee from the West Indies! No, wait – I think she’s from the East Indies this time!”
Sammy: “Um, dad, they just told us she’s from India.”
Sammy’s dad. “That’s what I said!”
Now I see where you get it from, Sammy…. LOL
Sammy
I haven’t even met your dad and I like him already. I consistently get “that look” from my wife and youngest son for some of the things that come out of my mouth.
My son and I were talking Warframe the other day and I was talking about Xaku (a character that’s an amalgam of different things) and one of his abilities.
My son: Xatu is binary dad.
Me: Yes son that is the very definition of binary “consisting of two or more things.”
My son: No dad the character identifies as binary.
Me: I know that’s what I just said.
He walks away frustrated and I walk away confused. Like “what did I do wrong?”
@Adam I try to be progressive and inclusive and I have no idea what you said wrong, either. Maybe we’re just getting too old? 😉
@Serial Limerent.
“Now I see where you get it from, Sammy…. LOL”
LOL.
If I’m autistic, then Dad most likely is autism-adjacent. 😛
I have better language skills than my dad, and also higher emotional intelligence than him. I am also far less **cough, cough** arrogant. (Dad denies that he is arrogant. He claims that he has “no improper pride”, just like Mr Darcy from “Pride and Prejudice”!!) 😁 I spent most of my childhood listening to my mother, so I can catch all the tiny emotional nuances females tend to use in conversations.
I can guess what Dad means, and then express back to him what he means in words everyone can understand. But to perform such a task for another human being requires both unconditional love and … an almost bottomless reservoir of patience. (Happily, I possess both qualities, at least as far as my father is concerned. I’ve always been very interested in understanding him). 😜
When my younger sister notices us cackling together in the living room, she’s like: “And I’d see you two troublemakers later…” My response is: “Ah, excuse me. I’m not the troublemaker. The man sitting over there – the one who sired you – is the troublemaker. And now i have to babysit him in the same way I had to babysit you as a little girl!” 🤣
“I know that song–It’s a filk of Louie Louie. lol”
That is terribly interesting. If someone sat me down and explained to me as an eleven-year-old that “Pharaoh Pharaoh” is actually part of some rich artistic tradition e.g. American jazz or African-American soul/gospel music, I’d happily sing it. No worries at all! I’m down with tradition! 😉
@Adam.
“I haven’t even met your dad and I like him already. I consistently get “that look” from my wife and youngest son for some of the things that come out of my mouth.”
Dad is quite wonderful, really. The trick to getting along with him is to leave all one’s prejudices and preconceived notions at the door. Learn to love him unconditionally (something my mother could never do, due to her own vanity) and he blossoms like a flower. 😜
After hitting the age of 40, I realised that I agree with almost everything my father says. Or, at the very least, I understand where he’s coming from. The problem is he’s right, but he doesn’t always phrase things in a polite way. He’s not a tactful little bunny wabbit. He’s every diplomat’s worst nightmare waiting to happen. 🙄
Dad absolutely drove my mother bonkers while they were married. (And my older sister too, I might add). Somehow, for those two ladies, he always said the wrong thing. I think Dad basically gave up talking for twenty years, because it was safer to say nothing than to say something bound to upset the women in his life.
But my younger sister and I – we don’t take Dad’s words to heart. We just let Dad be Dad. We’re not interested in forcing him to say the right thing. We’re delighted to have a politically-incorrect teddy bear for a father. Never a dull moment in our house! No sirree, bob! 😇
My mother’s biggest frustration with my dad was that: “Oh my Gawd. He’s always right! I can’t live with a man who’s always right! He’s driving me mad. I want to be the one who’s always right!” 🤣
Germaine Greer observed in “The Female Eunuch” that most women end up with the same complaint about their husbands. “Why must he always be right? Ever right?” 😇
Something deep in the souls of wives resents the eternal rightness and righteousness of husbands, it would seem. It’s as if husbands were put on earth for the sole purpose of vexing the womenfolk!!
I think my mother’s self-esteem couldn’t handle rarely being in the right. But my mother has some rather outlandish views of her own…
Even though my father was always in the right, my mother won every marital argument by making sure she got more emotional than he did. (A woman’s secret weapon maybe? Over-the-top, out-of-control emotion?) She would just escalate and escalate and escalate. It was funny to observe, but also kind of sad as well. 🙄
What I’ve learned about the sexes is that, contrary to what most women think, men are actually as intelligent as women, and as emotional as women, and men indeed DO get all the in-jokes on TV shows, etc. It’s just that some women don’t have the patience to … discover the rich internal geography their husbands possess. Some women are too interested in … getting their own point of view across. 😉
“Non-binary”, in contemporary parlance, means neither male nor female, or both male and female. I guess “binary” means a boy who thinks he’s only a boy or only a girl or a girl who thinks she’s only a girl or only a boy? 😆😆😆
My older sister identifies as both non-binary and polyamorous, though she’s perennially single. Dad lovingly calls her a “Poly Waffle” (the name of a 50-gram Australian chocolate bar). My younger sister refers to her as “the Mibling”. (Older sister can’t be a sibling since she no longer identifies as either a boy or a girl). 😜
“The trick to getting along with him is to leave all one’s prejudices and preconceived notions at the door.”
I think that this is how I am getting the older I get. (And it was non-binary that my son said I just didn’t type it out right.) I was raised in a very religious and conservative home, where what was suppose to be said over what you might want to say, was how it went.
In my older age, I am more at ease to say what I want to say, other’s opinions be damned. Especially other men. I tend to pull my punches for the ladies. Though my wife is an exception as she knows me and knows what I want to say anyway so I might as well say it. 🙂 She’s gonna call me out on it anyway. So why not say it right?
I’m pretty censored here, as this is someone else’s house and not mine. But me pulling back on my words gets less and less each year I get older. I am not trying to offend for the most part, I just am more candid than young me.
I call her Momma. Okay. I call her “mommy” or “mother” and she looks like she wants to rip my head off. (Have you seen the “witches” in Left 4 Dead game? That’s the reaction I get.) Maybe some day she will. But the existential thrill of whether she is going to or not, gets my adrenaline going. I’m 47 years old. I am too old for roller coasters but not too old to push her buttons for a thrill. 😉 Well and “those” buttons too.
@Adam.
“I’m pretty censored here, as this is someone else’s house and not mine.”
Adam, if you’re censoring yourself, then Heaven help us all! 🤣🤣
No, but seriously, I’ve always found your posts quite articulate, and I’ve been impressed at times with the quality of your writing. 😇
Warm wishes to you and Momma. She sounds like a wonderful lady! 🙂
Oops, the wrong room… Sorry, carry on!
Thanks for your kind words, Adam.
Recently, I have started to get frustrated about the fact that it is not possible to go NC, and that the exposure to LO leads to these setbacks. Guess there are others in these forums who need to see LO at work or in their social circle, and this is an especially difficult situation.
However, you are absolutely right about two things – setbacks can and will happen, and that I need to be kind to myself, and not beat myself up too much about it. So, I am trying not to ponder over this, to chin up, and to just keep going.
If polyamory meant I could be with LO I would be willing to try it. That probably says a lot more about my feelings of self worth than anything else though. Also imagine his SO wouldn’t be thrilled with it.
It’s been 6-months of no contact on my end. He did contact me once of his own volition a few months ago, supposedly to check on my wellbeing, but really to ensure my continued adoration. Not a very charitable thought on my part but it’s truly what I believe. I thought things were supposed to get easier the longer no contact went on but I still long to contact him and share random things that come up in my day that I know he’d enjoy. I don’t but the desire to is very real.
Hi , Lost Lamb
“I thought things were supposed to get easier the longer no contact went on but I still long to contact him and share random things that come up in my day that I know he’ll enjoy. I don’t but the desire to is very real.”
Oh, Lost Lamb, we’re in the same boat, wanting to share our thoughts and things with LO. The desire is so real, and yet so frustrating, one has to make a super natural effort to not cave in. It’s very sad and painful this desire to connect, Lots of suffering. Going no contact does not make this desire to communicate go away. I’m 19 months in with no contact, and I still think of him every day. I trained myself not to connect for my well being, it’s so painful the relapse. It’s not worth it.
It will be very hard at times but you must stay steady on your course, each day you don’t give up is a victory for you. The desire to connect will subside eventually, but it takes time, strength and determination. I allowed time everyday to silently talk and share with LO, that is, in my mind; also I
Put down on paper all my thoughts and the questions I d like to ask and communicate to LO, then go over them and read them again , cry, and go for walks, it’s a ritual I go through as not to give up. Each day it becomes better, what’s important is to keep yourself busy all the time, doing things you enjoy doing. Don’t listen to sad songs. I chose classical music, it calms my nerves. For one may be cranky at times, specially if you have an SO, and he doesn’t know about your limerence. It’s an ordeal to deal with this alone… I post my sorrows in this blog and it helps by knowing there are other people with the same feelings and that they are very understanding and sensitive to your feelings.
Wishing you strength and courage to walk this path and have victory at the end of it all.
I wonder if polyamory or ENM, if done correctly – with a high level of communication, clarity, transparency, ground rules – might in fact be the antithesis of limerence because limerence thrives on the exact opposite: uncertainty.
You will no longer be uncertain about getting LO. You will in fact have them. And you will not have to hide anything from SO. You will continue to have them.
Thoughts/opinions?
Hi Queerey,
You asked for thoughts.
I’m no expert. it may work for some.
Yes it would take away uncertainty but also potentially bring new issues.
It would only work with a lot of IFs be
ing answered affirmatively;
if no barriers, ie LO has no SO , LO not open to polyamory; is not a coworker; not an in-law ; not too young for you, etc
If their religion even allows it.
LO may not even be interested in you or even hardly know you exist.
So a lot of -If’s-
And even if both barriers and uncertainty is solved then later may
come the jealousy of sharing. Just my perspective
*LO open to polyamory (remove ‘not’ open to polyamory)
You understood that typo im sure !
Hi Bewitched. I think you handled the f2f interaction really well, I wish you lots of strength and am sure you will feel much better very soon, cheers!
Hi ABCD,
You too, my friend.
It seems we are both experiencing a set-back after 6 good months. Its just a low part in the cycle. We will improve again (the only way is up, right?). My suffering this time isn’t as bad as its been before. So that is something. I think its the same for you? I hope so. Keep up the good work ABCD!
Its great to be able to check-in here. It is certainly saving my sanity, several times over.
Hi Bewitched and other LwL friends. Yes, in fact, I read some posts and looks like a couple of us had recent setbacks, goes with the territory I guess. It really helps to check in here, and see that we are not alone in this, that provides solace.
I am feeling better today after two days of feeling low. Connecting with my SO is helping a lot. Though she has not said it, I am sure this whole LE has been hard on her, especially since most of my interactions with LO were in her presence. So now every time I get an urge to seek LO, I ask myself – what would my SO feel if she could read my thoughts, and then I try and step back.
Anyway, I went ahead and deleted LO contact from my device, that felt good. Also made a resolve to just stop seeking her, and make myself scarce. The most recent LO exposure really hit hard, so do not really need this in my life right now. Maybe in the future, I will feel better even after interactions, we shall see, but most certainly not today. Perhaps there was no LO interaction for a long time, and that is why my mind took it hard.
Take care, you all.
ABCD,
You are doing what you can within your control, and it felt good for you to do that. I admire you very much. I’m taking notes.
I will raise my hand here too as I have had a setback myself after quite some time of feeling like I was making great progress. Par for the course I guess.
I am getting reestablished now, thank goodness!
I have not given up on myself nor any of us here.
7 months no contact and the odd time when I feel compelled to reach out I don’t, it would be utterly futile and I know that.
When the urge subsides I feel proud of myself and I’m sure some of you feel the same.
Have a great weekend everyone!
It’s our Canada Day long weekend here I plan to join the festivities
Cheers!!!
ABCD, thanks for the update and glad you are coming out of the relapse. Great that you deleted the contact information from your device. It does help. Also great to think what your SO would feel. I’ve been trying to think that as well and it’s sobering. Thanks for the reminder.
I had a setback recently and messaged LO after 5 months NC. I can affirm that I took it hard. I was surprised the relapse it triggered. The contact is not worth the pain and guilt. I talked about it with my counselor (she’s a cognitive behavioral therapist) and she said when I want to reach out, look at the why behind it and try to fill that need. Sometimes it might not be obvious but for me lack of connection with SO, grief, boredom were the triggers this time. So I am trying to plan some things to look forward to and dates with SO. Wishing you the best ABCD!
Greetings to all from a high speed train… 😊
Need to get off now to a Buddhist temple…
Snow,
Sounds like you are having fun!
Have a good time!
Mila,
Yes, It feels like I’ve been in a “foreign” la-la land every single day —the best way to escape yesterday!
LE? What is LE? 😳
I love trains..
🚅 🚂 🥰 😁
I also love trains so much. Also love Buddhist temples. Incredible places to experience, the history and spirituality regardless of your own religion. I’m very envious of your trip Snowphoenix. enjoy!
Thank you, Imho!
I recommend that every Limerent takes a long (3-4!weeks minimum ) trip to visit exotic cultural places, then find out how it could affect one’s LE…. 😊
350 km/hour smooth rides, imagine!
If you bow to the Buddha or Kwan Yin bodhisattva you might have great Satori snowphoenix 🙏🙏🏾
Grego,
I was always too shy to bow surrounded by hundreds of faithful “buddhists”… so I bowed inside very sincerely….
In a quiet small temple (I tried to avoid famous ones), I saw a monk training one young and two older female pupils for standing still meditation (Qigong which I did practice during college). He smilingly allowed me to take a photo of this scary looking male Buddha, who might give me a nightmare tonight….
Let’s see what’s my luck after returning to my own home….
Hi Anna. Yes, relapses can, and will happen. You are so right when you say that after a while, not reaching out to LO always feels good. It shows one can control the urge, is something to be proud of. Enjoy the Canada day festivities!!
Hello Beth2. Yes, how LE affects SO can be pretty sobering, isn’t it? Putting SO and the one and only will surely help, I am certain of that.
Thanks so much for sharing your counsellor’s advice. It sounds very logical. Will think on these lines.
I am sure your planned activities with your SO will make you feel a lot better.
I am feeling better now. Lets see what the next contact throws my way.
Hello all here at LwL,
I am familiar with the poly lifestyle, and I noticed very few comments actually dealt with the topic of polyamory that is the subject matter of this post, so I thought I would share some thoughts.
First of all, the understanding of polyamory among non-poly folk tends to be at a surface level. This is NOT a criticism of anyone (I was there once), it is just that polyamory is a minority position, so the general public tends to not know about it and have a pretty shallow understanding of it. The thing that the public DOES grasp though is the most obvious: poly people have more than one partner, and it is all above board. This feels like the ultimate fantasy for anyone who has an SO and wants to integrate a LO into their lives without losing the former, and is plagued by the secrecy, guilt, and shame of longing for someone outside the model of monogamy.
However, polyamory is a really complex way to arrange your life. It requires a great deal of communication between many people, and a very high level of self-awareness and self-work. If fully embraced, it actually changes your paradigm towards relationships, marriage, monogamy, couple-centrism and many other matters that you never imagined were affected by how you chose to arrange your romantic life being up-ended. It is not for the faint-hearted, and there are many challenges that a person probably would not undertake unless they really felt a deep need to rearrange their lives into a polyamory pattern. Limerence does feel like a deep need, but I have my doubts it can sustain a true commitment to a poly lifestyle.
If your ONLY reason to do polyamory is to get LO, it is unlikely to work (even if everyone involved was willing to give it a go). A decision to open up one’s marriage with a SO is a very delicate process, where one is very much focussed on ensuring that the primary relationship will weather the storm. It can take months to even talk out the ground rules with your SO. SOs have to feel secure of your affection and commitment … they have to feel SAFE. A lot of the articles here sympathetic to the point of view of SOs show that SOs by and large are NOT feeling in a safe space when their partner is limerent for another. Contemplating polyamory when there is already a LO lurking on the wings is VERY unlikely to result in the type of open marriage structure that is created out of a space where both partners are thinking lucidly, clearly, and with compassion, able to empathize with the other and yet advocate for their own needs and wants … that is a tall order to expect a marriage that is potentially in distress to manage to achieve. My bets are that such an attempt will fail.
One other thing: the limerence model as conceived by Tennov appears to posit that one can only have one LO at a time. This is basically a very monogamy-centric paradigm (apart from the SO who happens to be there first). Polyamory is the anti-thesis of that, from a conceptual and philosophical point of view.
Even in the most robust poly relationships, we cope with things like jealousy. You may imagine a cosy situation with you and your SO and LO with you as the hinge, but a true poly lifestyle means that your SO is free to date others, and your LO will probably pick up a couple of other lovers on the side. Can you handle that? Is this what you actually want?
A choice to enter a poly lifestyle works best if it is a PURPOSEFUL decision. It is not best used as a knee-jerk reaction, a fantasy, a band-aid, a bargaining chip to try to lure LO into your life. Those of us committed to our partners in a polycule love them all and balance all their needs and our own, and those of their partners (our metamours) and anyone else who is affected by our constellation (including of course, children).
Thank you for listening.
Poly lifestyle may work for some people, I believe, but it may occasionally bring some dreadful consequences.
Watch. Videos below:
1) “Taboo sexual swinging fantasy ends in murder”
2) “ Husband’s sexual fantasy turns to obsession and murder”
Both are documentaries on the
SITE: True crime cases studio
Unchecked desire and betrayal, deceit and revenge… better to divorce, or stay single.
Hi PolyBemused, you seem to be level-headed. You make some good points about how a poly relationship is unlikely to resolve a Limerent episode. I appreciate your perspective.
Can I ask you something? I’ve never seen a poly situation last for a lifetime, but I’ve seen many monogamous relationships not only last, but happily last a lifetime. It seems like monogamy is a goal worth aiming for. I’m curious, how long has your relationship been going? I’m not sure how to measure it, perhaps the longest duration of two people within the poly-group? Have you seen a poly-relationship last a lifetime?
Here is another lame question. Is it easier to get child-care when you are in a poly relationship? Like if two people want to go out of town, is it easy to get one of the other people to watch their kids?
I don’t mean to put you on the spot. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.
I think this
„ However, polyamory is a really complex way to arrange your life. It requires a great deal of communication between many people, and a very high level of self-awareness and self-work. If fully embraced, it actually changes your paradigm towards relationships, marriage, monogamy, couple-centrism and many other matters that you never imagined were affected by how you chose to arrange your romantic life being up-ended. It is not for the faint-hearted, and there are many challenges that a person probably would not undertake unless they really felt a deep need to rearrange their lives into a polyamory pattern. “
is the explanation why you won’t find many poly relationships endure, but it doesn’t mean there might be some who manage.
Thank you Polybemused,
I think your post is very informative and important.
And I love this question
„ Here is another lame question. Is it easier to get child-care when you are in a poly relationship? Like if two people want to go out of town, is it easy to get one of the other people to watch their kids?“
It occurred to me too, I think it’s a mother‘s reflex:)
Lol
PolyBemused,
To piggyback on Lovisa’s questions … you wrote that polyamory is not the solution if one has an LO. Are you saying that a person with an SO who is polyamorous and has a secondary partner never becomes limerent for that secondary partner? I’m assuming that it’s entirely possible for the person to become infatuated and/or fall in love with the secondary partner. How would that be different than someone being limerent for a secondary partner? Is the person asked to hide/tone down their feelings for the secondary partner from the SO? (I’m asking how the person comes home from a hot date with the secondary partner, not leaking all of the signs of infatuation to the SO.) I don’t see that as being all that different than feelings for an LO. Either way: I’m asking about how difficult it is for an SO to witness that, especially knowing on some level they can’t produce those same kinds of early relationship feelings in their partner anymore.
I second your point of view Marcia.
There’s no law against falling in love or becoming limerent for someone else besides your SO, whether monogamous, open marriages, or polyamorous. It’s definitely inevitably, bound to happen at some point or another. So is the human biological condition. Unavoidable…
Nisor,
“There’s no law against falling in love or becoming limerent for someone else besides your SO, whether monogamous, open marriages, or polyamorous. It’s definitely inevitably, bound to happen at some point or another. ”
That wasn’t what I was saying, and I hope that’s not true, or why get married? I think it’s inevitable to develop attractions and maybe little crushes. But falling in love … I hope not. I hope deeper feelings can be nipped in the bud by judicial NC.
I was asking PolyBemused that, if you are going to become polyamorous and the two people in the couple are allowed to have other partners, what is there a difference between becoming polyamorous for a current LO, which PolyBemused advised against, versus becoming polyamorous, in general. Won’t one or both members of the couple become infatuated with/limerent for/fall in love with a second partner down the road? I’m genuinely curious because I don’t understand the distinction.
Hello Marcia,
Your question is nuanced, and deserves a reply that tackles it fully. I didn’t feel I could quite do it justice in my mega response yesterday.
It is always challenging when something changes, and our SO or other partners falling in love with others is one of those things. If you see that them falling in love with someone else does not mean that they stop loving YOU, and it will not upend your life or threaten the security of your children, it is easier to accept. I notice that many limerents seem to NOT stop loving their SOs even as they are gaga over their LOs – this is very common in polyamory, and that is what we bank on as our relationship structures grow and change – the love in the primary relationship is super strong and partners have confidence in the bond and therefore less threatened by any new bonds forming. If there are uncomfortable feelings, these will hopefully be talked about openly. If there is a an agreement of how to deal with this that pre-exists it is a little easier to talk within the structure of that agreement. Which is why creating an agreement when LO is hanging on the wings tends to not work – there is no pre-existing agreement – they become enmeshed in the outcomes that the limerent hopes for. When you consider that agreements are NEGOTIATED – which means there will be give or take between the partners, not every one gets everything they want, the agreement may not even end up as something that would take account of LO – and this isn’t what the limerent desperately wants, but you need full buy in from your current partner (that is not coerced or them pressured into) so, it compromises the negotiation process, as you can appreciate. Also – often when a couple is at the start of opening their marriage they tend to put in a lot of structural safety nets, and limitations which they only drop (if ever) when they begin to practice polyamory longer, and begin to trust the process and their partner – eg. they may not allow sleep overs for years … or this or that … more seasoned poly couples will have very few rules, but some, while never used, like the power of veto are very real. SO may at any moment say, I don’t want you to see LO ever again, and if that is part of the agreement that they have that power, well, breaking that is breaking the agreement and possibly your relationship. (Note: not all poly agreements have the right of veto)
You could say that the poly agreement helps to insulate against future-shock. We EXPECT our partners to meet new people; we are aware that them falling in love with someone else is a real possibility; we are open to the possibility of change. Which does not mean we don’t have a reaction when it does happen, but there is at least some structure to help us deal with it. It doesn’t guarantee the relationship won’t experience a shock, but it does tend to be less of a surprise and I think more resilient to such occurrences. If one of my partners presents with limerence, I would be concerned if it begins to impact the quality of how they relate to me and the rest of the polycule, but if they continue to be loving towards us, and meet their responsibilities and obligations … I would probably look forward to meeting this wonderful creature who has so enchanted my love. And when it comes to my turn to meet a new person, I get to experience this new relationship energy too. So it is fair is it not?
The problem seems to be when there is cognitive dissonance – when people can’t believe you can love more than one person – and start devaluing their current SO. This is often something that we try our very hardest not to let happen in polyamorous relationships. We treat our current spouse or partner with utter respect, and we give them all the love we have for them. We do not think we have to take away from them, just because we want to give love to someone new. So polyamory MIGHT help with the issue of cognitive dissonance too. We just never believed in the first place that you are wired to love only one.
This is also probably where it is meaningful to mention compersion – this is joy that one feels when one knows that one’s partner is having a wonderful romantic time with someone else. I think you can only truly reach this state if you are absolutely confident in the love you have with your current partner. It comes out of believing that we have this one life and there is a possibility of many wonderful experiences, and we are pleased when someone we love has the opportunity to experience it. It takes nothing from us. It gives everything to them.
I hope this answers your question.
I just had a thought: maybe a way that could help people understand is that in a marriage, you promise to love only one person forever and forsake all others. Where as with polyamory, you promise to love that person (it COULD be forever, although to be honest, people in this lifestyle are usually open to the possibility of change) even if you do not forsake all others. Both entail promises of sorts and commitment, just one is a well-known template and the other not.
Lovisa asked the question of how long poly relationships can last, and asked what the longest relationship in my polycule is – right now it is a 16 year old marriage – and they are making their retirement plans for their twilight years together 🙂 Very sweet. The current shortest in our polycule is only a few months – someone recently met someone new, and that too is very sweet to see.
Another thing that you might consider is that many poly relationships are not visible. Because of many of the stigmas and discriminations I mentioned, people tend to keep it under the radar a bit. Most of the poly people I know have some level of secrecy somewhere – some may be open with their friends but not tell their conservative elderly parents that actually, they are more than one. Some don’t tell their minor children yet. So John and Jane who look like they are the classic monogamous couple who lasted three decades – they could have other lovers on the side for years, they could have been swingers, etc. Or they genuinely could be monogamous and have been really happy with that! People generally do not talk about their sex life with others.
PolyBemused,
Thank you for your detailed explanation.
I agree with you that people can love more than one person. What I personally think is that you can’t be “in love” with more than one person. By that I mean the limerent-like, obsessive, addictive, can’t-get-enough-of-you feeling in the beginning of a relationship. That, I believe, is reserved for one person, biologically, for breeding. And while that feeling fades (and everyone over the age of 30 knows that :)), I think it would be difficult to watch one’s SO experience that with someone else. Because that feeling is overwhelming. People sometimes ditch their family and friends for it and then, when they come up for air, realize the damage they’ve done. So I think it would take an SO with a strong sense of self and a strong faith in relationship to not feel unnerved/threatened, etc. if their partner was going through that. I’m not saying it can’t happen. But it would be challenging.
Personally, I don’t look at the duration of a relationship as proof of success. There are an awful lot of traditional, monogamous marriages that people are more resigned to stay in than happy to stay in. That isn’t to say there aren’t happily married, long-term couples. There are. But just because something ends doesn’t mean it was a failure. IMO
@polybemused
Thank you so much for this contribution. I have never experienced polyamory, but the point resonates with me that it isn’t something to be negotiated “after the fact” with an SO and an LO as a way for the limerent to justify their story – it is much more complicated and negotiated than that. Thanks for sharing.
Hello all,
Good questions and not so easy to answer them all, but I will try. The reason why it is not easy is because there are so many “flavors” of polyamory and the answer to any one question will be different depending on your polyamorous practice.
Polyamory where there are many people involved tends not to stay very static – it is less “stable” than a two-partner situation because there are so many people involved – complexity is multiplied. However, the entire structure doesn’t necessarily collapse just because there are a few changes among certain members. Some value seems to be placed on whether something lasts a lifetime: this is a measure that contains a value that is not necessarily something that matters to all people (I am not trying to be rude here, just pointing out that there is an underlying assumption that something that lasts a lifetime is “better” and that it isn’t necessarily something everyone cares about). One thing that often happens is that you can have a very long-term relationship with another person, but what you mean to each other can change over time – so you may be lovers for some years, “just” friends for others, co-parents for some, business associates other times … if lasting a life-time matters to you, it is definitely possible, it just sometimes doesn’t look recognizably like a monogamous set-up.
With polycules (poly families) we can set rules about who, when etc. we are willing and able to admit into the family. This often is done with an eye to keeping the polycule functioning, and more stable and lasting and healthy.
Some polyamorous set-ups are arguably rather “couple-centric” anyway, with a strong hierarchy which prioritizes the primary relationship, and there are other secondary partners (there is some controversy in the poly community over hierarchical set-ups are desirable). Most (but not all) of the relationships you see when people say they are in ENM or CNM relationships are these sorts: CONSENT of the other partner being the key. The primary relationship can, and often does last a “lifetime” same as any average marriage – you could even argue that the secondary relationships are part of what keeps these primary relationships going for as long as they do. Secondary relationships do, in my experience, last less long. My feeling is that this particular flavor of polyamory can outperform normal so-called monogamous marriages in the sense that, considering the high level of cheating that occurs among so-called monogamous relationships, and the 50/50 chance of marriage ending up in divorce, it may be better to not have to cheat on your spouse or partner by getting their consent and having them involved in setting the ground rules that they can accept.
Having said that, I want to be honest to say, polyamorous relationships are NOT without the same or similar challenges that monogamous relationships face, like jealousy, insecurity etc. Of course we can become limerent for or very infatuated with others to the detriment of existing partners (why am I here, after all). It can be challenging to see your spouse or partner in the throes of new relationship energy with a new sweetie, and what it takes is a lot of reassurance and faith in the bond you share (and for your partner to be sensitive about showing they still love you). Sometimes, yes, a partner may want to be with someone else more to the point they wish to fundamentally change the relationship structure and dynamics … but that is a situation that happens in both monogamous marriages and non-monogamous relationships. Sometimes, change is inevitable. Feelings get hurt – in any relationship where you are vulnerable, I think, whether monogamous or non-monogamous. As I said, polyamory is a complicated structure, and there have to be a lot of compelling personal reasons (this is very individual) to want to do it that way – it does not guarantee anything (but neither does monogamy – my first marriage was totally monogamous and faithful for over two decades and it still ended). And to the person who said that polyamory can end with dreadful consequences I want to say, so can monogamous relationships.
Haha, childcare can be easier, yes. But again it depends how open a group is about what they really are. If you do not let children know what is going on among the adults, then really, it is no different from asking a friend to babysit. But if all the adults are involved in raising the children, then yes, everyone gets a night off. Together sometimes.
I am not totally satisfied with how I organized this response of mine, I am sorry if it seems a little disorganized, but I think you get the idea that it is because there are so many ways to “do” poly (there is even solo poly which I won’t get into right now). What it even IS is not fixed … that is probably one of the biggest challenges for polyamorists – there is no model, there are no assumptions, there are no laws in society to support your lifestyle (tax breaks or health insurance? forget it), there is so much misunderstanding, there is discrimination, sometimes there is disapproval, our children can be affected by our choices, we can lose our jobs over how we choose to love. We lose couple privilege especially if we choose to be honest and open. Or if we keep it, we are keeping part of who we are a secret – not from our loved ones but everyone else in society – this can be painful and isolating. You are basically choosing to function outside of mainstream society and people are sometimes even scared of you (as though polyamory is catching) and hostile towards you (that is very sad). This lack of societal support is probably one reason why poly relationships face greater pressure than an average relationship, and it could contribute towards them being less stable. I would caution any limerent who is contemplating polyamory as a way to get access to a LO, that this is not a free pass. Not really. Not at all, actually.
I guess I am not saying if polyamory or monogamy is better or worse – some people are better suited to one or the other. I am just saying I do not think polyamory is the answer to the limerence dilemma.
Oh one other point I needed to mention is that we can be in love with more than one person. Just as a parent can love more than one child, or love a new child without losing love for an existing child.
I should probably also explain compersion, but this is getting too long!
Well explained, thanks.
I wish I could be a polycule, perhaps in my next life…