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Living with Limerence

Life, love, and limerence

Coffeehouse: love is not blind

By 86 Comments

Another month rolls around, and brings another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse endless thread.

I’ll never tire of the stimulation

To kick off the discussions this month, here’s an interesting new paper about how good people are at seeing (and accepting) character flaws in their lovers:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-026-03428-y

The basic conclusion is that people in love are readily able to identify flaws in their beloved, but the flaws have to be really serious to decrease the intensity of love feelings (i.e. stuff like infidelity or aggression).

In some ways, this result seems to conflict with the old idea that love is blind, or at least seen through rose-tinted glasses, and that this illusion is an important part of stablising pair bonds.

In other ways, it supports the idea: the rose-tinted glasses don’t make you blind, they just colour your worldview.

In the context of limerence, this would take the form of idealisation of the limerent object.

In that previous article I argued that if love is blind it’s wilfully blind. It’s not that limerents can’t see the flaws, it’s that they don’t register emotionally. Indeed, sometimes they can even be felt as charming or evidence that the LO obviously needs to be saved and made whole and good by the might of your undying love.

Just finished shining my armour

Even worse, sometimes it’s the flaws that excite the limerent glimmer, and lead you to chase people who aren’t going to be a good long-term match.

Anyway, it’s good to have some solid data to confirm that perception isn’t actually deranged during limerence (or passionate love), it’s just how the information is processed that matters.

Annoying habits are dwarfed in emotional salience by the rush of attraction and affection that you feel for them.

You see the flaws, but you don’t care.

Because they are so Special.

Reader Interactions

Comments

  1. Tom, I am so glad you wrote this. This topic is an important one for me.

    I just posted on the previous Coffeehouse about getting together with LO and how it did not go well. He droned on for quite a while about his tax problems, which I could live with, and then gushed endlessly about an internet friend who is a prominent person who lives in another country, which really wore me down.

    I left feeling exhausted and disheartened. He clearly has little to no interest in anything I have to say, and I continue to wonder why I am so drawn to LO. It’s gotten to the point where I can’t really see many good qualities at all.

    Which is not to say that he doesn’t have good qualities, it’s just that he doesn’t exhibit those qualities TOWARD ME. He is clearly enchanted with this prominent man from the foreign country. Perhaps LO is limerent for him. I was really able to see what LO is like when he is enthusiastic about someone.

    It’s night and day from the way he acts around me.

    So is it that I “see the flaws, but don’t care?” Clearly, I DO care.

    Great food for thought.

    Reply

  3. “You see the flaws, but you don’t care. … Because they are so Special.”

    With the exception of my college LO (who actually was very artistically talented), I never thought of my LOs as special or exceptional, though some of them had qualities I admired.
    What was unique about them was how they made me feel.
    And, yes, even during the height of limerence, I was well aware of their flaws.

    Reply

  4. That’s a lot like how I was with LO #1 in college. I didn’t intend to get involved with her. I was chasing her roommate.

    But, we hit it off. She could talk about a wide range of topics. She was into Southwestern Native American mysticism, taught me how to read auras and introduced me to a Shaman.

    She was also willing to cheat on her boyfriend which I didn’t view as a flaw in context. She was also heavily into recreational drugs and alcohol. She showed up at my apartment with a handful of peyote buttons and asked if I wanted to do them together. I declined.

    After graduation, I found a roach in the seat of my car which would have gotten me courts martialled had one of those cute little drug sniffing beagels found it.

    She definitely wasn’t LTR material but I could overlook things as a college student that I couldn’t overlook as a naval officer.

    Life can be very interesting, sometimes.

    Reply

    • “She definitely wasn’t LTR material ”
      I wanted an LTR (or something serious) with all my LOs. Or at least wanted them to give me the option of having one. Even if I knew, deep down, it’d be a trainwreck.
      And I consider a lack of that offer as a failure on my part.

      Reply

        • Marcia,

          I consider my relationship with LO #2 a failed relationship in that I didn’t achieve the outcome I thought I wanted but I don’t consider it a personal failure.

          I acted honestly, openly, and in good faith. She chose not to accept what I offered her. The relationship “failed” but I didn’t. There was nothing wrong with what I offered her and nothing wrong with me for making the offer.

          I understand that your LOs “failed” to respond the way that you wanted them to but I don’t understand why you feel responsible for it. Was there anything wrong in what you offered them or wrong with you offering it?

        • LE,
          ” Was there anything wrong in what you offered them or wrong with you offering it?”
          Apparently, because they didn’t want it. Or want it the way I wanted them to.
          If you (general “you”) are really into someone and they don’t feel the same way, what does that say about you? Either your picker is off or something in you is wanting. At least according to that particular person. Of course, you have zero control over the feelings of someone else. There’s not a damn thing you can do about it, but it does make you think.

        • “If you (general “you”) are really into someone and they don’t feel the same way, what does that say about you? Either your picker is off or something in you is wanting. At least according to that particular person.”

          Marcia

          Funny you post this recently. I’ve been thinking the same thing about NG. I thought things were going in a good direction again. Or at least improving on making some sort of coffee/drink date possible. Then she did something stupid. Then after that she did something that was stupid 2.0. After that it just seemed all too clear she was trying to tell me she wasn’t interested without having to ever actually tell me she wasn’t interested. If that’s what she wanted, then that’s what she got. I cut off all texting her or going to visit her on break.
          I thought I was dealing with someone who was past the games. Or at least someone who could be more truthful, but I guess not. Even LF never stooped to this level. And she’s the immature one here. Go figure..

          So it’s just like you said. There’s not a damn thing I can do about it and yes it has caused me to think.
          Think that my picker is definitely off. There is a pattern with me.

        • MJ,

          “After that it just seemed all too clear she was trying to tell me she wasn’t interested without having to ever actually tell me she wasn’t interested. ”
          The minute she gave you an indirect answer — the first time you asked — she was telling you she wasn’t interested. Or that she was distracted with something else. Or couldn’t commit to going. Whatever it was (and it really doesn’t matter: it was a no), it was time to cut your losses. We’ve gone over this. MANY times. 🙂 There is no 2.0. And, frankly, as a woman, I don’t want to be asked more than once. Don’t put me in that position. As hard as it is to ask (and I do think it’s the harder job), it’s also hard to turn someone down. No one enjoys doing that. That’s why a lot of people are so bad at it and so unclear about it.

          “If that’s what she wanted, then that’s what she got. I cut off all texting her or going to visit her on break.”
          Good. She rejected you. That should sting your ego a little. It doesn’t mean you have to be rude when you run into her (because if you’re rude, she’ll know she got to you and we don’t want to let her know that). But rejection is a part of life. Everyone gets rejected. If they say they’ve never been rejected, they’re lying. Being rude to the person is immature. But that doesn’t mean you should keep giving attention and validation to someone who’s not interested.

          “I thought I was dealing with someone who was past the games. Or at least someone who could be more truthful, but I guess not. ”
          Yes, she should have been direct with you, but you should also have known that an indirect answer was a no.

          “Think that my picker is definitely off. There is a pattern with me.”
          Ha! You’re preaching to the choir. Mine is, too.
          I was watching this video (of course I was :)) and the dating coach said that if you are attracted to emotionally unavailable people, you yourself are unavailable. Because you’re not risking anything. You’re not really going to get that involved with this person, not completely; you can’t. And if you’re attracted to people who are physically unavailable, you have commitment issue. Ha! That’ll hit you between the eyes. 🙂

        • “I don’t want to be asked more than once. Don’t put me in that position. As hard as it is to ask (and I do think it’s the harder job), it’s also hard to turn someone down. No one enjoys doing that. That’s why a lot of people are so bad at it and so unclear about it.”

          Marcia

          It may be hard to talk about but sometimes I feel like I need that clarity. Please let my ego down because I know I’m being cavalier in my effort. My dumb desperate a$$ will just keep pushing the envelope till I crash and burn. Which is what I basically had to do with the Lady at church, who kept coming around back when I was in my situationship around Covid time a few years back. I basically just told her there was someone else. That her timing was bad. Can’t say she interested me much though. She said a lot of goofy things. Plus she was way too tall.

          I feel like if NG and her current interest were just friends, she could have told me. Or even it was more serious. I mean, I was genuinely starting to really like her company.
          I guess I probably made that a little too obvious, but c’mon man, I’m crazy about Latina Women. I think if her interest had only swayed a little more toward me, it would’ve worked, but who knows? I haven’t been rude back to her and I’m not going to be but she can tell I’ve stepped back. I can see it in her eyes. I don’t care. This was her call.

          Instead I went into the Bank again to see my girl J. She calls me by name now and I can’t help but get excited everytime we talk. It’s like I can tell she genuinely likes it when I come in. She has a very nurturing and seemingly caring personality which completely melts me. I know I shouldn’t get my hopes up, but here again is another connection I feel like I could make work, if somebody else wasn’t in the damn way. Yet I’m held hostage to keeping things professional and friendly. I’m sick of it. Drink some coffee with me already. I’m a good Dude.. 😁

        • MJ,
          “It may be hard to talk about but sometimes I feel like I need that clarity. Please let my ego down”
          That’s not the woman’s job. It’s your to take the hint.

          “Which is what I basically had to do with the Lady at church, who kept coming around back when I was in my situationship around Covid time a few years back. I basically just told her there was someone else. That her timing was bad. Can’t say she interested me much though. She said a lot of goofy things. Plus she was way too tall.”
          So you know what it is to be on the receiving end of it. I have to ask: Why do you do it to women?

          I’m releasing you as a patient. 🙂 I could have said dismissed but I’m feeling generous. 🙂 I don’t really have anything else to add. I’ve told you as much as I can. We’re going around in circles here. I’ve pointed you to resources I thought were good. Resources I’ve watched myself. When you start watching enough of these videos, you realize how painfully self-evident dating is. I’m cringing at myself that it’s taken me so long to begin to figure some of this stuff out.
          I wish you luck. Really.

        • “I’m releasing you as a patient. 🙂 I could have said dismissed but I’m feeling generous. 🙂 I don’t really have anything else to add. I’ve told you as much as I can.”

          Marcia

          Release me? You can’t release me. I didn’t sign paperwork that you could.. But hey if you must..

          Actually I didn’t even know I was your patient. So you see how mindless I am. 😆 I’m just stubborn thats all. You probably figured it out. You know you can never truly leave me anyway. I’m irresistible and you know it.. 😂

        • MJ,

          “I’m just stubborn that’s all. ”
          Stubborn is not the word I would use. Thick-headed. Thick-skulled. Learning-challenged. 🙂
          If you keep doing the same thing, you’ll get the same results. It really is up to you if you want different results. You keep writing you want to go to coffee with someone, but you keep trying to recycle the same women who have already put themselves in the “non-option” category. Or your meet new ones … and they’re the same as the recycled chicks: impossible to pin down.
          I don’t write this to be a pain in the ass. I’m trying to change my patterns, too. 🙂

          “You know you can never truly leave me anyway. I’m irresistible and you know it.. 😂”
          We can still talk. I just can’t go over this dating stuff anymore.

        • “You keep writing you want to go to coffee with someone, but you keep trying to recycle the same women who have already put themselves in the “non-option” category.”

          Marcia

          You’re not wrong so I can’t say your advice is bad. It ends up being that way because my options are very thin. Realistically I don’t even have the time to date. Or date for long term these days. Dad’s situation has me cornered. So I go with what I know because its comfortable and familiar. I’ve become so pathetically desperate that feasting on breadcrumbs is my only real joy everyday. My entire mood can shift based on one interaction. Sometimes my conversation with you can even affect me and I have no clue who you are, other than some Woman my age from somewhere. 😃

          Just sayin, I’m not coming here to aggravate you or have you give up on me. True, I’m thick headed and learning challenged. But it is nice to get your female viewpoint of things. Maybe I should be more like LaR and take action instead of being recycle happy all the time. Maybe then you’ll write me novels back. 😆

        • MJ,

          “Dad’s situation has me cornered. ”
          I think you’re using this as a little bit of an excuse (though I’m not doubting you have your hands full).

          “I’ve become so pathetically desperate that feasting on breadcrumbs is my only real joy everyday. ”
          I guess I’m different. I’d rather have nothing than crumbs.

          “My entire mood can shift based on one interaction. ”
          I certainly understand that. I’m a limerent, after all. But, really, your mood shouldn’t rely so much on women who aren’t really a significant part of your life.

          “Sometimes my conversation with you can even affect me and I have no clue who you are, other than some Woman my age from somewhere. 😃”
          Do you ALWAYS have to bring up the age thing? I’m well aware how old I am. I have a mirror.

          “Just sayin, I’m not coming here to aggravate you or have you give up on me.”
          I haven’t given up. I’m all ears if you:
          A.) Meet a new chick;
          B.) ASK HER OUT RIGHT AWAY;
          C.) Go on a date with her.

          “Maybe I should be more like LaR and take action instead of being recycle happy all the time.”
          What action? With his SO but not his LO. (Oh, he’ll be mad at me now. :))

          “Maybe then you’ll write me novels back. 😆”
          You can’t handle novels. They’re too much for you. You know that. 🙂

          Question: How did you ever get married? You don’t like women who like you. 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny. )

        • LE,

          “Those who never win and never quit are just idiots”

          Couldn’t have said it better myself..
          🤣🤣🤣

        • “I think you’re using this as a little bit of an excuse (though I’m not doubting you have your hands full).”

          Marcia

          Maybe only just a little but weekends are pretty much a washout. I suppose if someone came along and showed a strong interest, I would be able to work around it. But its like you always say, you know when the other person is interested and on board. It’s obvious. It shows. For me that hasn’t happened since 2021. Even then it wasn’t 100%.

          “I guess I’m different. I’d rather have nothing than crumbs.”

          I agree. I’m actually kinda sick of them myself, but when thats all I’m getting fed, what’s a guy to do? Keep in mind NG originally said yes to my asking her out early on. Yes its my fault for not insisting on it a day or two later. But she was never going to commit to a date that fast.

          “But, really, your mood shouldn’t rely so much on women who aren’t really a significant part of your life.”

          True true, but thats what I mean about the breadcrumbs. They play a significant part because they are giving me something I’m not getting elsewhere and if its anything positive, my mind goes to work. Thinking of what things might be like. Even if they were cheating on their SO. At this point, I don’t even know if I care about that. Just give me attention. It’s what I need. I’ll buy the coffee for god’s sake.. 😆

          “Do you ALWAYS have to bring up the age thing? I’m well aware how old I am. I have a mirror.”

          Its good to know I’m not the only one looking in a mirror and asking it, who is this old person looking back at me? Am I really the poster child for 55 year male limerents?
          Its ok Dear. You were probably just my type in high school. With your big Aqua Net bangs, blue eye shadow and jean jacket.. 😆

          “Question: How did you ever get married? You don’t like women who like you. 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny. )”

          You do kinda have a point there. I think I really liked my Wife, but didn’t really love her till she became the mother of my children.
          We were so immature together and I was an idiot all the time. She was crazy for me and I have no idea why. Even when I think of how I loved her, I don’t even think I knew how to properly love her. Emotionally I wasn’t there enough, which ultimately led to the divorce. I’ve been regretting it ever since.

        • MJ,

          “Maybe only just a little but weekends are pretty much a washout.”
          Obviously, I don’t know all the details of your dad’s condition but what if you are caregiving for the next 10 years? I don’t mean to point out the obvious, but you’re not getting any younger.

          “But its like you always say, you know when the other person is interested and on board. It’s obvious. It shows. ”
          It is obvious. At least once one of you makes a definitive move. And, really, it should be a turn off when they start acting flaky and non-committal and hard to pin down. I know limerents see that kind of behavior as a challenge to take on or a mystery to be solved, but it shouldn’t be. 🙂

          “I agree. I’m actually kinda sick of them myself, but when that’s all I’m getting fed, what’s a guy to do?”
          Maintain self-respect. Don’t continue to give women attention who rejected you.

          “Keep in mind NG originally said yes to my asking her out early on.”
          It happens to women, too. I’ve had guys ask for my number and then never contact me.

          “Yes its my fault for not insisting on it a day or two later. But she was never going to commit to a date that fast.”
          I don’t think asking her to go a day or two later was the problem. If she’d really wanted to go but couldn’t on that day, she would have suggested another day.

          “Even if they were cheating on their SO. At this point, I don’t even know if I care about that. ”
          I have a lot of mixed feelings about that. I would never engage in that kind of thing just for attention. That’s WAY too low of a bar.

          “Its good to know I’m not the only one looking in a mirror and asking it, who is this old person looking back at me?”
          I don’t think of myself as old but decidedly middle-aged. One of the ickiest descriptions in the English language.

          “You were probably just my type in high school. With your big Aqua Net bangs, blue eye shadow and jean jacket….”
          I dreamed of being a burn out but didn’t have the guts back then. 🙂

          “Emotionally I wasn’t there enough, which ultimately led to the divorce. I’ve been regretting it ever since.”
          It’s not like you only get one shot. You could still meet someone.
          Provided … you know … you didn’t show up with your natural personality. 🙂 (I’m teasing.)

        • Miss Norma,

          You’re welcome.

          I’ve got into a habit — watch a bunch of Stoic shorts the first thing after waking up, so my brain is refreshed with its truths and disciplines for the day to come (any motivation/lesson disappears in one’s mind without constantly practicing them).

          Then, I spent 1.5~2.5 hours (with empty stomach) doing Taichi, simple PT strengthening and stretching, based on my physical conditions (not competitive ones). Then, I get ready for teaching or tutoring or reading on my own.

          Without physical health, the mental health is Impossible. Without mental training/rewiring, one is easily stressed or pained, like some of us have complained here.

          I hope you’re doing better with your wise choice of what to think and what to do, in terms of your LE.

          Again: please do NOT talk with me about your LO AT ALL!

        • To Miss Snow:

          When I watched the video, I was thinking more of my best girlfriend, who is going through some health problems and is not herself. Or maybe she IS herself, and I am just now seeing it.

          She has always been pleasant and kindly. Now she is less so. Very snappish, biting my head off over nothing. Extremely impatient and irritable. I don’t handle this very well.

          The video was very thought-provoking, and I appreciate it.

          Although I am still somewhat at a loss as to how to be supportive while keeping away from her very sharp teeth.

        • Norma,

          Stoicism is to build an emotional shield for oneself, so as not to get hurt by other people’s (perceived) negative behaviors.

          How to deal with people who devalue you (LO), disrespect you (children), or mistreat you (best friend), with or without reasons, is within the scope of Stoic practice — How do you REACT, especially if/when the other side is not your enemy but someone you care.

          Physical Illness/pains, especially chronic ones, can change suffers’ personality if not turning them to a “devil” for the time being. This is a nature/reality we all have to ACCEPT, expecting otherwise is unwise, like reasoning with a hungry/sick 5-year old.

          Many physical sufferers don’t want to be nasty to their family and friends, but often couldn’t help it — pains dominate mind; they’re under illness’ control. Without recovery or healing first, they cannot become “normal” or a new self again.

          I know you want to be kind to your best friend; but you have to ask a serious question: Am I physically healthy and mentally strong enough to support her?? If you do NOT have a Stoic mindset — not REACT to whatever negative things she does/says to you, you’d be hurt badly or your sanity might be destroyed.

          It comes to another question: between you and your best friend, whom to be taken care first?

          I’m attaching a couple of shorts about how Stoics give/treat kindness for you to think about —

          1. https://youtube.com/shorts/eA88sfd4thQ?si=u_gs5bWhO-r9mM1h — Kill with Kindness

          2. https://youtube.com/shorts/Imc2jQm_fBo?si=5Pu02ABAxJG-9unY — 7 Stoic Truths About Protecting Your Kindness.

          3. https://youtube.com/shorts/uc7ShpOlzLY?si=NTcP4JRZz1E0V6y1 — 4 Ways How Kindness Will Ruin Your Life.

          4. https://youtube.com/shorts/Uowl6LByBZ8?si=Fxr6OTT6OHvtD3Gl — 4 Signs You’re Too Nice

          I don’t have an answer for you, since I don’t know your friendship definition or have experienced your friendship dynamics.

          I’m healthy, loyal and Stoic enough to support my chosen, close friends if they get seriously sick, excluding addictions.

        • Seneca taught that suffering is not in the event but in how we perceive it.

          That’s good advice. I need to take hard times and learn from them not let them deplete me through suffering.

          I’m in a bad way now and I’m trying to learn the lesson just like I finally did with limerence. That is one of the biggest things I admired most about LO; her resilience despite what life threw at her. Maybe that’s the lesson she came in my life to teach me.

        • Adam,

          Three Stoic founders have said many things, I hope you take time to listen/read their words (I’ve linked enough shorts here). It takes a great of mental efforts to learn Stoicism and train one’s mind.

          Please STOP taking with me about your LO (I have no opinions of her whatsoever), because it only reinforces/fans your residual LE. If you do it again with me, I WILL ignore your posts completely.

          Focus working on YOURself with IFS and Stoicism: your past — childhood “trauma” — vulnerability/“exile”), your drinking issue — firefighter, and wake up 16 parts (8 Cs and 5 Ps) of Your SELF to take much better charge of your own life — Your whole self! NO one else, not even your God, could SAVE you if you don’t HELP/SAVE yourself First!

  5. In my opinion real love is never blind. I see Momma’s flaws and she sees mine. But we keep on going. Almost 27 years now.

    LO was different. Her flaws were what drew me in. Her plight and perils in life are what drew me to her. Her … my perceived potential in her are what drew me in. My adamant defense of her, without question, where what drew me in. My adoration for her, despite what life was throwing at her, drew me in. Because I wanted to fix it all for her. I’ve never met a woman so independent on the outside but fragile on the inside, for the people she would let in. And she let me in. I know it’s one of the worst parts of limerence that has held/holded on to me so tightly.

    It’s different with Momma. I want her to see her potential. I defend her fiercely. I will always be there to either fix her problems or just listen. It’s hard to describe the difference. Maybe it’s because I have a genuine desire for her to better for herself than me to feel good about myself for rescuing LO. I guess I was selfish with LO.

    Love shouldn’t be blind because that then takes the reality out of a relationship. And that’s not healthy. I married a bipolar woman with anxiety. She married an alcoholic. Seeing that in each other builds on our relationship. Rather than me ignoring LO’s flaw so she could appear as the perfect woman. I don’t why I feel I need to fix things/people. But I do.

    Reply

    • Adam,

      I very much agree with you that “real love”— authentic LOVE, is never blind; it is a “castle” built, stone by stone, over time by two mutual, equal, compatible “hands” with 5~6 types of loves (based on Greek terminology) and their matching, concrete manifestation in reality.

      There is NO ready-made LOVE to drop from the sky for ANYONE on this earth ! (if there were, one’d be bored from 3-18 months, due to no efforts/achievements made). After initial sparks or even fireworks, It still needs enduring, substantial loving WORK to make LOVE truly fulfilling for both sides.

      Limerence (after the Glimmer and honeymoon phrase) is absolutely NOT love that can work and last either in reality or in a fantasy/spiritual world. More than often (not always) It’s an obsession that seemingly/illogically “meet” one’s past unmet needs or distract/“take away” limerents’ temporary or situational stresses/pains (like the unexpected grief in my case).

      Your love for Momma, despite all its challenges, ups and downs, is indeed Admirable! 👏 Please cherish it everyday! (I wasn’t able to do it with my xSO years ago.)

      https://youtube.com/shorts/2yDgwoQmPs4?si=B7h_yqAE9EzExI7v — a couple perfectly matched

      Reply

  6. Miss Snow

    Why is this so hard for me accept? That I can always be there for someone else without them asking for help? It feels cruel not to help someone with their problems. Why can’t I see people suffer to grow without intervening? Is it caring too much? Is it weakness? I get what he is saying intellectually but emotionally I just can’t.

    https://youtu.be/AZcnB5Qfv48?si=V8TSbjB5KDnyv87-

    Reply

    • Adam,

      I watched the video (1st time heard of him) you linked and 100% agree what him intellectually and 95~99 % emotionally (there are always 1~5% exceptional cases).

      Your questions here are very vague, so I’ll have to ask you back some questions.

      “Why is this so hard for me accept? That I can always be there for someone else without them asking for help?”

      “For me accept?” For you to accept or to be accepted? What do you think you “can” help them with? Superficial tasks, (ie. Change a high-ceiling lightbulb), or substantial help such as teaching your great skills (physical, mental, psychological)? And where is “there”? At their work, home, or inside their mind?

      “It feels cruel not to help someone with their problems.”

      It would be cruel if you know how to solve their problems but refuses to do so. Now, what kinds of “their problems” you can help with? Physical, mental, emotional, psychological or historical? Have you truly solved all your residual issues from your personal history?

      “Why can’t I see people suffer to grow without intervening?”

      It’s probably your cultural conditioning (Christianity and the Western traditions). You are taught/influenced to play a “white knight” or a caregiver role. However, NO ONE, in any culture, can grow without truly experiencing some adversity and profound suffering. Would your intervening help them grow independently or lean on you as a “cane”? What sorts of mental “tools” do you have to help those sufferers?

      “Is it caring too much? Is it weakness? “

      In Internal Family System, it’s “Managers” (caregiver, Superman-knight/savior) working together to protect your own vulnerable part(s). Along with your firefighter — excessive alcohol consumption, they actively work together for you to avoid dealing with your own deep/buried issues/pain(s) — “exiles”. It’s not a judgment on you (plural), every part of IFS has its psychological function; they are there for reasons.

      “I get what he is saying intellectually but emotionally I just can’t.”

      He’s Stoic, logical, wise and kind. Perhaps, you want to listen to more of his teaching? Have you checked out all Stoic and IFS links I attached to you before?

      If one really wants to help a ”beggar”, give him a bag of healthy seeds, an effective farming tool, and a skillful farming lesson; and make SURE you already have three things before reaching out your hand….

      Reply

  7. Miss Snow

    Accept? That people don’t need me? The people that I want to help? Why does my validation as a person hinge on helping others? I ran from my porch to the street because our neighbor didn’t unhook his tie down and I knew it’d get wrapped up in tire while he drove so I had to warn him.

    I hate to wind back around to her … but I just wanted her to know it wasn’t anything she did wrong. It wasn’t her fault he cheated on her (and the second one but I’m gonna manage my anger as a Stoic) it was him. I tried to manage her emotions to make her feel better about herself. I wanted to manage her work difficulties. I wanted to do everything I try to do with Momma.

    I need to try and find your IFS links. I don’t remember where they are. He is a very kind and wise man. I wish I could find a way to help people without depleting myself.

    Reply

    • Adam,

      Am I talking to Don Quixote III? Your idea about your LO sounds to my ear like DQ for Dulcinea del Toboso, your LO’s Exs must be those Windmills.

      I can’t locate those IFS information and tapes I posted, so here is AI information —

      *********

      What is Internal Family Systems (IFS)?

      Internal Family Systems (IFS) is a transformative, evidence-based model of psychotherapy developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz in the 1980s. It’s built on a revolutionary premise: the mind is naturally multiple, and that’s a healthy thing.

      Instead of seeing the human psyche as a single, unified entity or a collection of “parts” (like the Freudian id, ego, superego) that are pathological and need to be eliminated, IFS posits that we all have a core Self and a system of sub-personalities, or parts. These parts form a complex, internal ecology.

      The model is non-pathologizing. It doesn’t see symptoms like anxiety, depression, or addiction as disorders to be eradicated. Instead, it views them as understandable roles that well-intentioned parts have taken on, often to protect the individual from pain or to manage life after traumatic experiences.

      At its core, IFS is a practice of inner attunement. It helps individuals transform their relationship with themselves from one of self-criticism and internal conflict to one of compassion, curiosity, and self-leadership.

      —

      The Core Components of the IFS Model

      The IFS model rests on three key elements: the Self, Parts, and the relationships between them.

      1. The Self

      The Self is the core of who you are. It is not a part; it’s the innate, essential “you” that exists underneath all the parts. Dr. Schwartz describes the Self as being naturally calm, curious, compassionate, confident, courageous, creative, clear, and connected—the “8 C’s” of Self-energy.

      When a person is “in Self,” they are not controlled by any part. They can observe their parts with curiosity rather than judgment, and they can lead their internal system with wisdom and compassion. The goal of IFS is not to eliminate parts but to help the individual access this Self-energy so they can become the internal leader, healing and harmonizing their parts from a place of centered presence.

      2. Parts

      Parts are the discrete mental systems—with their own feelings, memories, beliefs, and agendas—that live within us. They are like a family inside. We experience them as distinct inner voices, emotions, or impulses (e.g., “a part of me wants to speak up, but another part is terrified of being judged”).

      In IFS, no part is considered “bad.” Even parts that cause destructive behavior are understood to have a positive intention for the person, though their methods may be extreme or outdated. Parts are broadly categorized into three roles:

      · Exiles: These are the most vulnerable parts. They carry the “burdens” of past trauma—memories of shame, fear, loneliness, pain, and neglect. Because these feelings are so overwhelming, Exiles are often locked away in the psyche’s inner basement. They are typically young, sensitive, and hold the core wounds from our past. If they are not protected, they can “flood” the system with intense, painful emotions.
      · Managers: These are proactive, protective parts. They work to keep the system stable, safe, and functioning in day-to-day life. Their primary job is to prevent Exiles from being triggered and their painful feelings from surfacing. Managers operate from a place of fear and control. They can manifest as:
      · The Inner Critic (keeps you “in line” so you won’t be rejected)
      · The People-Pleaser (ensures safety through approval)
      · The Perfectionist (strives to avoid failure and shame)
      · The Caretaker (takes care of others to avoid dealing with one’s own pain)
      · Firefighters: These are reactive, impulsive protectors. When an Exile’s pain breaks through the Manager’s defenses and becomes too much to handle, Firefighters rush in to extinguish the emotional fire immediately. They act with urgency, often in ways that are numbing or distracting. Their actions can be destructive in the long term, but their intention is to provide immediate relief from overwhelming pain. Firefighters can drive behaviors like:
      · Substance abuse (alcohol, drugs)
      · Binge eating or purging
      · Rage or violence
      · Dissociation (spacing out, scrolling endlessly)
      · Self-harm or suicidal impulses

      —

      How IFS Works for Individuals: The Therapeutic Process

      IFS therapy is a process of guiding an individual to unblend from their parts, access their Self, and then use that Self-energy to heal wounded parts. The process is typically experiential and done in a slow, mindful way.

      The Goal: Self-Leadership

      The ultimate goal is not to “get rid of” parts but to create a harmonious internal system where the Self is in the lead. When the Self is leading, Managers can relax from their hyper-vigilant control, Firefighters don’t need to act out, and Exiles can be unburdened from their pain. The parts then take on healthier, more flexible roles, contributing their unique gifts (e.g., the former Inner Critic becomes a wise advisor; the People-Pleaser becomes a source of genuine empathy).

      The 6-Step Healing Process

      The IFS process for working with an individual part follows a structured, non-judgmental sequence:

      1. Identify the Part: The therapist or individual begins by noticing a specific part that is active. This could be a feeling (anxiety in the chest), a thought (“you’re so stupid”), or an impulse (to eat sugar). They turn their attention toward it with curiosity. The key phrase is, “I notice a part of me that feels anxious.”
      2. Access the Self: Before engaging with the part, the individual checks in to see who is “listening” to it. Is it another part (like a critical part judging the anxiety)? Or is it the Self—calm, curious, and compassionate? The first step is often to “unblend” from other parts that are interfering. A therapist might ask, “Can you see if there’s a part that is frustrated with this anxious part? Would that part be willing to step back for a moment?”
      3. Get to Know the Part (Fully): From this place of Self-energy, the individual begins a dialogue with the part. They don’t become the part; they befriend it. They ask it questions with genuine curiosity:
      · “What do you want me to know?”
      · “What are you afraid would happen if you didn’t do your job?”
      · “How do you feel toward me?”
      · This step is about understanding the part’s positive intention, not trying to change it.
      4. Uncover the Exile: As the individual builds a trusting relationship with the protector part (Manager or Firefighter), the part often feels safe enough to reveal the vulnerable Exile it has been protecting. For instance, a Manager might confess, “I have to keep you working 80 hours a week because if you stop, you’ll feel the overwhelming shame of not being ‘good enough’ for your father.” This shame is the Exile.
      5. Witness and Unburden the Exile: With the protector’s permission, the individual’s Self turns its compassion toward the wounded Exile. The goal is to “reparent” this young, vulnerable part. The Self does this by:
      · Witnessing: Simply being present with the exile’s pain without being overwhelmed by it. The Self says, “I see you. I’m here. It was so hard for you.”
      · Retrieval: The Self takes the exile out of the painful past situation and into a place of safety and resources in the present moment.
      · Unburdening: This is the core healing event. The exile is asked to release the “burden” it has been carrying—the belief that it is unlovable, worthless, or unsafe. This is often a profound, physical, and emotional experience where the burden is let go of. In its place, the exile can take on positive qualities like lightness, playfulness, or a sense of worthiness.
      6. Reintegrate the Protectors: After the exile is unburdened, the protectors who were guarding it are also transformed. Their extreme jobs are no longer needed. The former inner critic, for example, can relax and choose a new, healthier role, like being a supportive inner coach.

      —

      Key Principles That Make IFS Unique

      · All Parts are Welcome: The model maintains a stance of radical acceptance. There is no “bad” part that needs to be destroyed, silenced, or pathologized. Even suicidal parts are seen as firefighters desperately trying to end unbearable pain.
      · Non-Pathologizing: IFS views symptoms (e.g., depression, addiction) not as illnesses but as evidence that the internal system is in distress and that protectors are working hard to manage it.
      · The Self is the Natural Healer: The therapist’s role is not to “fix” the client but to guide them in accessing their own innate Self-energy. The client is the true healer of their own system.
      · Internal System Harmony: The goal is to create a collaborative internal system where parts trust the Self to lead, rather than being in constant conflict with each other.

      —

      Benefits and Applications for Individuals

      IFS has proven effective for a wide range of issues, including:

      · Trauma and PTSD: By directly unburdening exiles without retraumatization.
      · Anxiety and Depression: By understanding the protective roles of critical and avoidant parts.
      · Addiction: By working with the firefighters who drive addictive behaviors and the exiles they are numbing.
      · Eating Disorders: By fostering a compassionate relationship with the parts that control food and body image.
      · Chronic Self-Criticism: By transforming the inner critic from a tyrant into a protective ally.
      · Relationship Issues: By helping individuals understand how their parts interact with their partner’s parts, reducing reactivity and increasing intimacy.

      In summary, Internal Family Systems is a compassionate, empowering model that shifts the paradigm from “what’s wrong with me?” to “what happened to you, and what part of you is trying to help?” It provides a clear, structured roadmap for individuals to heal their deepest wounds, quiet their inner critics, and lead their lives from a place of calm, confident, and connected Self-energy.

      *****

      Reply

  8. Today is the one-year anniversary of the death of my beloved guinea pig, Cristobal. I still miss him very much.

    I took a moment to reflect on my progress in the past year. I just passed the three-year limerent mark, and for some reason, I thought my limerence would shut off like an expired parking meter. So silly of me.

    Still, I am grateful for how much progress I have made. Realizing how faulty my thinking has been and making adjustments. Wishing I could go faster, but also appreciative of how far I have come.

    I really have no one else to talk to about this. I have two best girlfriends. One of them says, “Just forget about him!” which is obviously not helpful. The other one is hostile to the point where I can’t even discuss my feelings without her going on a rant.

    I am very pleased to have encountered some understanding folks here. It has made a world of difference to me.

    Reply

    • Norma,

      A nice message which I’m sure Christobal would have approved of 🙂

      “I thought my limerence would shut off like an expired parking meter.”
      I will soon tick past my three year lim-versary too. I think we all read “2-3 years” on this site and think ‘it surely must run out of energy by now!’. I do find mine runs out of energy, but – like yours – slowly. I’m flying closer to the sun again with my LO at the moment, after a long spell where it didn’t bother me. These phases get shorter and less intrusive each cycle, but still they come. It’s never a quick snap of the fingers as long as that damned slot machine still pays sometimes. I am glad you can recognise progress, as well as the road still to travel.

      Reply

      • To LaR:

        I do find that LO helps me tremendously in overcoming the limerence. I had a conversation with him last week that was so exhausting and unpleasant that I have still not recovered.

        This does not speak well for me, however. It’s not good that I am depending on LO to act like a jerk so that I can make progress overcoming my limerence.

        That sounds even more pathetic when I write it in a sentence.

        Reply

        • “Every action that moves you toward your goal is productive.” – Elihu Goldratt, “The Goal”

        • To L.E.:

          Point taken, thank you.

          But I would like to feel that I am making progress under my own steam.

          Still, a win is a win.

        • I don‘t think he helps you. Contact to people who leave you suffering isn‘t healthy.
          Maybe you fool yourself? I know it is a hard step to move away from a LO, but it is the only way to heal.

          Besides I am on NC 21 days today. Thats a lot for me and the last two years..

        • To Laloba:

          Point taken. The problem is that I start idealizing him after too long of an absence. Seeing him reminds me of how difficult and unpleasant he is.

          He’ll be gone soon enough. He just found a new real estate agent that he LOVES and he is re-listing his house shortly. This new agent is going to market his very unusual house to potential interested buyers in Europe. Trying to sell it locally, apparently, was a mistake.

          Nobody around here wants a house that looks like a French chateau.

  9. I am definitely noticing some improvement today. LO said he “might” call me to get together later today. I have been hoping he WON’T call. Of course I can always turn him down if he does call, but I am not quite ready for that.

    Meanwhile, I am watching the Kentucky Derby festivities and having a blast by myself. I don’t have a fascinator, but I DO have a plastic tiara that I am wearing.

    I think I would rather die than have LO see me in my tiara.

    I really am going full-on Norma Desmond today.

    Reply

      • To Adam:

        Derby Day is the perfect time for such accessories.

        My ex-husband and I got married on Kentucky Derby Day many years ago, and we always watched the race before going out to dinner to celebrate our anniversary.

        I am grateful that I am able to have a good time by myself.

        Reply

        • After my Wife and I divorced, I found out she went to the Derby with her new Man for a number of years. I found a camera of hers with pictures still on it. When I scrolled through, I saw her in some atrocious looking dress and a big, dumb, stupid looking pink hat with feathers all over it. Not only was the dress god-awful looking but it added 20 plus pounds and aged her almost 30 years..

          I thought the point of gussy-ing up for the derby was to look good. Not to make a fool of yourself..

          Btw, I did let her know I disapproved.. 😆

        • To MJ:

          Many of the people at the Derby look pretty silly.

          I am not a fan of the fashions.

          You probably wouldn’t like my plastic tiara, either.

        • ND

          Tiaras are one thing. My Ex just looked goofy as hell. Totally not her style at all. She would brag to me about it all the time and I got jealous. Now that I know what she looked like, the jokes on her. I don’t care. 😂

        • MJ,
          “Now that I know what she looked like, the jokes on her. I don’t care. 😂”
          It kind of sounds like you do care. Maybe not about the bad Derby fashion but about the new guy ?

        • To MJ:

          The bragging would rub me the wrong way.

          My ex-husband bragged to me that he had attended the Derby one year. He asked me if I had watched it, and he actually said, “Did you see me?”

        • “It kind of sounds like you do care. Maybe not about the bad Derby fashion but about the new guy ?”

          Marcia

          True about the fashion statement because yes, she did infact come off looking deplorable. It did nothing to accentuate whatever look she was going for. I won’t even discuss the color schemes either because they were nauseating at every possible turn.

          However, yes I was somewhat jealous at the time because all she ever did was brag about how much money this guy made and all he was, was a big, dumb corn-fed farm-boy with a lot of land. He even went so far as to buy her a house. A whole newly built house!! So I knew he must have been desperate to flex and show-off what he was about. Nothing but a big dope.

          Turns out I was right because he got all super possessive of her, told her how she was going to live and expected her to follow-thru on his every demand. (It was good to have my Daughter snitching on her then. Thats how I found out this stuff 😁) She found out he was a real slob too. He liked to eat in bed and got crumbs everywhere. I guess the final straw was when she found him eating peanuts on the can one night. The story still cracks me up, but I just told her what she always told me prior to finalizing the divorce. She made that bed, now she can sleep in it. Crumbs and all.. 🤣

        • “My ex-husband bragged to me that he had attended the Derby one year. He asked me if I had watched it, and he actually said, “Did you see me?””

          ND

          Yeah I could definitely see how that would annoy you. As if you were actually hopeful you’d see him. Like seriously, did he think you would care? 😆

          My Ex was with her guy for only a few years and every year she made it a point to tell me she had to work her schedule around to surely attend it. Like every year a new dress, new hat.
          Holy crap if they were all as awful as what I saw in those pictures, I don’t care if I never find them. 😂

        • To MJ:

          My skin just crawls, reading your description of your ex-wife.

          Divorces are painful enough without one person trying to impress the other with how well they’re doing. That’s really spiteful.

          Of course you got upset. It would be one thing if she said nothing to you, but she made a point of rubbing your nose in it.

          And yes, the idea that I would care about seeing my ex-husband at the Derby! Even if I had known he was there, how on earth would you spot any individual person? Apparently he was seated near the top of the stretch. They never show that area on camera anyway.

        • MJ,
          “However, yes I was somewhat jealous at the time because all she ever did was brag about how much money this guy made and all he was, was a big, dumb corn-fed farm-boy with a lot of land. He even went so far as to buy her a house. A whole newly built house!! ”
          Oh, wow. I’m intrigued with your ex. Was the house in her name? 🙂

          “Turns out I was right because he got all super possessive of her, told her how she was going to live and expected her to follow-thru on his every demand. ”
          But did she get the house? In all seriousness. If he owns it, then, yes, he makes the rules. He who has the money makes the rules. It’s like having an employer. 🙂

        • To MJ:

          I find it fascinating that her deal breaker was eating peanuts in the bathroom.

          I have put up with much, much worse.

        • Well LOs (now) husband ain’t nothing but a corn-feed hillbilly but he’s got money because of the land he owns. It ain’t just suits that got money. I imagine she is set for life provided … relationships are a two way street. Or at least that’s what my co-workers would remind me when they were dating. Much to my chagrin. But that’s my fault for letting them get to me I guess.

          Aaaaaaand that goes back to Miss Mila; “what if they are happy together, wouldn’t that be great Adam?”

        • “Oh, wow. I’m intrigued with your ex. Was the house in her name? 🙂”

          Marcia

          Thankfully not. I think that was part of his scheme though. Lure her in by doing nice things for and she’d stick around because she was down on her luck. Never mind this guy was her former bfs (now deceased) best friend. (Yes my Ex went all Jerry Springer-ish post divorce.)
          Truly I feel like she’s never been the same since. She was a hot mess then and still kinda is now. There’s nothing to be intrigued about. It’s my fault. I ruined her. 😑

          She got out from under him because he was a slob and he got too demanding and she felt like it was just another version of me she swore she would never put up with again. True I ran a tight ship in my house. But I was in my 30s then and I was an idiot. If I could go back and beat my own a$$, I would. I was probably way too immature to be married and bring kids into this world. Now that I’m middle aged, alone and pretty miserable most days, I regret ever raising my voice to her once. Infact I regret a whole lot more than just that too.

        • MJ,
          “Thankfully not. ”
          Thankfully not ? No, she wanted the house in her name. She can get his butt out of there and keep the house.

          “I think that was part of his scheme though”
          You wrote he bought it for her. No, he bought it for himself and then allowed her to live in it. Big difference because he controls the money/finances.

          “Lure her in by doing nice things for and she’d stick around because she was down on her luck.”
          Sounds very controlling. Do you mean down on her luck financially?

          “Never mind this guy was her former bfs (now deceased) best friend. ”
          Was there some overlap or had her former bf already passed away when she got with this guy?

          “There’s nothing to be intrigued about. It’s my fault. I ruined her. 😑”
          Well, I’m sure your marriage affected her and I’m by no means negating that. But at some point, we’re responsible for own our stuff.

          “True I ran a tight ship in my house.”
          Most women won’t put up with that. And they shouldn’t. And I’m hoping she’ll reach a point where she won’t put up with it again.

          Ha! I’m watching a video online about “boy math.”
          “Boy math is how 5’10” measures 6′. ”
          “Boy math is wanting a pre-nup when you make $45,000 a year.”
          “Boy math is thinking the answer to ‘Did you come?’ is yes.”

          I had never heard of this concept of boy math. Is there girl math? Yes. But it’s mostly about shopping. It’s boring.

  10. I am watching the Met Gala fashions with interest. Obviously I don’t run in that crowd, so I am not up to speed on most of what’s going on.

    I just learned, belatedly, that actress Nicole Scherzinger won a Tony Award for portraying Norma Desmond in “Sunset Boulevard.”

    Somehow I feel proud (?).

    Reply

    • With Nicole Scherzinger’s Pussycat Dolls heritage, it is all the more reason for CatCyclist to see her!

      Reply

      • Are you going to watch the play or the original movie?

        Because Gloria Swanson knocks it out of the park. Other actresses turned down the role because they were afraid that Norma Desmond was too old/eccentric/unlikeable and it would ruin their careers.

        Gloria Swanson embraced the aging character fearlessly and got an Oscar nomination.

        “Sunset Boulevard” is a beloved classic, and a favorite of mine.

        Reply

        • To the living Norma Desmond,

          Thanks for the information; this is definitely on my list of movies to see.

          As for the new musical, I’m afraid that with Nicole Scherzinger as the star, I may well end up with a new LO — the last thing I want — with her pussycat pedigree.

        • To CatCyclist:

          I don’t know if the play is still on Broadway, or where it’s showing. Maybe it’s been filmed and it’s available somewhere?

          But the 1950 movie is as close as your TV.

          I love me some Gloria Swanson. Probably nobody’s idea of a LO, but she is fantastic in the role. The first time I saw the movie, I was in my thirties and thought she was a crazy old lady. The second time I saw the movie, she had not aged, but I had. Suddenly I was older than Norma, and I understood her completely.

  11. Ever since my last LE went away 13 months ago, my dreams have quieted down a lot, much less in quantity (or I forgot), intensity, or in vividness. I made an effort: not to journal any dreams related to XLE or talk about them here. Any written words (after thinking and editing) reinforces the supposedly transitory feelings and likely press/imprint them further in the mind (that’s why I don’t want to hear about your xLO/xLE repeatedly for your own sake.)

    It worked. After a couple of weeks or months, all the XLE related dreams became blurry and lost their details, except one dream, in which ET suddenly landed at my home demanding to know why I did not send him any New Year greetings (a week before the 2026 New Year). Even with that sweat and guilt-driving dream, I did not send out a single word for the first time in 10 years — “the LE chain” was truly broken!

    There were a few times I got a tiny bit angry/upset (at the both sides) when some belittling or regrettable memories suddenly struck (usually when there was physical discomfort present), but I did not complain about them internally or write them down anywhere. With Stoic practice, those emotions passed fast. (no more than an hour, even just 5 minutes!)

    The past is over, nothing you can do about it, so just acknowledge mistakes, learn the lessons and move forward, one solid, earthen step at a time…. I’m quite content with my internal progress (believe me, it’s incredibly hard to change/cut old, habitual non-Stoic mindset, ie. avoid tough love…)

    A “creepy” dream crept in this morning when I dozed back to sleep for about 20~30 minutes —

    There was a wooden, full-size bunk-bed on my current bed spot, and there was a dusty desk printer on the far corner of the top unused bed (just wooden board without any sheet). *I never had a bunk-bed in reality*

    I was in standing idol in the room full of the morning sunlight and heard a clink — the printer made a weak noise. I lifted my feet and saw a shape of a VHS tape seemingly lying on the upper paper-feeder. Then it disappeared. I thought my eyes might have had a delusion (the concept of 3D printer was absent in dream).

    In a couple of minutes, I heard a louder noise from the printer. This time, it did spill out a full-sized purple-bluish VHS tape to the bed. 😳 So I climbed up the bed and picked it up, looking at it in disbelief! Then standing in the center of the room, I wondered how I was going to get perhaps video messages out of it (no longer have a VHS player)…. 🧐

    Then, OF COURSE, I woke up! — dreams almost never gave/told you what you needed most at the moment, darn it! 🫤

    In the past, my dream rarely foretold a future (mostly opposite of the dreams); but this morning I couldn’t help wonder what is in that VHS tape and from where! I guess I’ll have to wait and see 🤷🏻‍♀️, hopefully before my deathbed — not a bunk 🛏️ !

    Reply

  12. I have a small update, of sorts.

    My LO has a fancy, high-end house that he is trying to sell.

    His real estate agent filmed him describing the house and gardens in a 15-minute video that’s meant to attract purchasers.

    It’s beautifully filmed and parts of it are in slo-mo, which just makes everything look dreamier.

    I just finished watching the video for the first time and I feel a little queasy.

    So I am trying to identify the source of my discomfort. I think what it is, I feel completely overwhelmed and nauseated by LO’s obsession with antiques and decorating. Of course, he’s a designer, so of course this is his life. But he got to a part in the video where he talked about upholstering some of his walls.

    For some reason, that made me want to turn the video off. I didn’t realize he had done that, and the idea of upholstering walls just feels over the top. I really like his gardens, but both of his houses are stuffed to the gills with antiques, and frankly, I’m exhausted just looking at it. The prior owner of the house even bought antique glass for the windows, which makes it look authentic, but the quality of the glass is not good compared with modern glass. You can’t see through it properly.

    Overall, I think I am losing interest, which is really the bottom line here.

    Also, he isn’t telling the truth. He says he’s “the luckiest guy in the world” to own such a house.

    He’s actually the angriest person I know. He said, “I’ve got to get out of here,” meaning he can’t wait to vacate our state for a different home in a different part of the country.

    Reply

    • Momma collects/collected angels, be they statues, dolls, porcelain dolls, etc. So when we moved into this house I put them up high on the wall on a large cedar shelf that I made in high school shop class so they’d be safe.

      My mother had an elderly relative that sounds like your LO with antiques. I never liked going to her house when I was young because even standing in the middle of any room I would feel like I’d break something unintentionally. Shelves everywhere and all of them chock full of stuff. It was unnerving.

      Reply

      • To Adam:

        To this day, I am afraid to touch anything in LO’s house. Fearful of starting a domino effect. The first time he invited me over, I said, “Which surfaces are safe to sit on?” He said, “They’re all safe,” and plopped down on one of the couches, so I sat next to him. But I still never touched anything.

        The more I get turned off by LO, the better.

        I am still at a loss to explain why I am limerent for him at all.

        Last night, I talked to him and he was frustrated by, what else, the house.

        I said, “I wish I could make you smile, but I have no influence over you.”

        He said, “Well, I have no influence over myself.”

        Make of that what you will.

        Reply

      • “He said, “Well, I have no influence over myself.””

        But he should have autonomy enough to influence how he treats others. And I get what he’s saying about himself because I’m the same in how I deal with myself. But I’m self aware enough to not treat others the same way. And that is what annoys me about him.

        I may not be able to fake smile. But if sense someone or something they said is genuine than I will smile genuinely. There’s few people that can get that out of me because the smile isn’t for me it’s for them.

        Reply

        • To Adam:

          I took it to mean that he doesn’t feel more capable of responding warmly to me. He can certainly force himself to be polite, but genuine warmth doesn’t seem to be there. He’s an avoidant and defensive person.

          I once remarked that it’s too bad he had his sense of humor surgically removed. He said it’s just stress, but I think it’s more than that.

          He deliberately creates a super-stressful life for himself by engaging in huge, exhausting projects. If he were willing to have a simpler, more modest life, he wouldn’t have to work seven days a week.

          And if he didn’t need all that “aesthetic” (as he calls it), he could relax more. There’s a part of him that seems to thrive of being on the edge of a disaster much of the time.

        • I’d be careful using the word “avoidant.” Posters on here use it frequently. (The other word is “narcissist.”)
          I think people use it as a way to justify the LO’s behavior. Or explain it. I’ll be frank … it makes the limerent feel better. “She doesn’t want to date me. She’s an avoidant.” Stuff like that.
          What I mean by that is that we usually don’t have access to someone’s life in that we can’t follow them around and see how they interact with other friends, family and romantic partners. Are they an avoidant with everyone in their lives or just us? We probably won’t have a good way of knowing that, and it really doesn’t matter. Because at the end of the day, all we can judge them on is how they treat us. And that behavior either is or is not acceptable.

        • To Marcia:

          You’re right. I should have specified that LO is avoidant around ME. I have no idea how he treats anyone else.

          I just had a frustrating encounter with him. He invited me to Starbucks, and as usual, I couldn’t get a word in edgewise.

          I don’t mind listening to him. He’s the most interesting man in the world (to me), but I do wish that our conversations were more give-and-take.

        • ND,
          “but I do wish that our conversations were more give-and-take.”
          I mean, he’s like McDonald’s. You always know what you’re going to get. 🙂

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