Super busy with the last push to complete my book at the moment, so in lieu of a blog post, here’s a video. It’s a productive discussion between two therapists who come to the issue of infidelity from opposite directions: as betrayer and betrayed.
It’s probably hard viewing for folks in the middle of this particular nightmare, but good to hear both sides explained well.
A couple of notes on terminology (as I understand them): Flooding refers to being so overwhelmed by emotions that you flip into panic survival mode and cannot think rationally. Grounding is the technique of recovering emotional stability using breathing exercises, mindfulness or other methods to calm the inner storm.
It’s interesting to watch the therapists model how miscommunication after an affair can undermine the chance of recovery. Most notably, they each articulate the concerns of their position clearly, and acknowledge the bitter truth that their own anxieties are likely to trigger emotional retaliation in the other – it’s bound to provoke a betrayed spouse if they’re accused of being insufficiently forgiving, just as it’s bound to demoralise a betrayer (who is trying to deal with their personal issues) to be held to ever-changing standards.
Watching the discussion is also a good exercise in monitoring your own triggers. There were several points in the video where I felt my own righteous indignation rising, only to have the relevant therapist make an insightful counterpoint.
Overall, the main conclusion is that there are thorns in every direction.
My wife and I were in marriage counseling less than two years into our marriage.
One of the first things the counselor did was give us a test to determine our communication styles. She said that after looking at the results, she believed that we loved each other and wanted to make our marriage work but our communication styles were so different that she wondered how we could agree on a restaurant, let alone discuss these issues. We worked on it and we’re still married.
A former coworker was in the National Guard. He said that the NG gets a lot of veterans from different branches of the military and they all have their own jargon.
He recounted the story of a tank on a firing range that caught fire. He reported it as he would have on a ship. The range officer told him to hold fire. After about 3 rounds of this, somebody else came on and said, “Yo, idiot, the tank is in flames!”
The late Christian apologist, Walter Martin, said that in any debate or serious discussion, you had to define your terms. If you don’t, you’re not communicating effectively.
“in any debate or serious discussion, you have to define your terms”
when i was in fourth grade, we had a discussion on global warming. there was one guy who apparently did not know what a green house gas was. at one point he said that greenhouse gases made the planet greener.
the next day the teacher explained what it really was. he then asked, “so they don’t make houses greener?”
Years ago my buddy and I were standing in line to get our car from the valet. The couple ahead of us was discussing where to go to consummate the evening. He suggested his place. She suggested her place:
“I believe in safe sex and I feel safe in my apartment.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
Oh, I dunno. Maybe the lady made a valid point? Maybe the lady knew the guy’s apartment was so disgustingly filthy she could catch multiple terminal illnesses merely by coming into contact with the furniture? šš
Asbestos. Mould. Shower drains choked with cat hair. Pizza from 3000 BC. Toilets that have never been cleaned. Giant mutant cockroaches. The list of potential hazards boggles the mind… š
@Sammy,
Maybe, but as I recall the conversation, probably not.
I got the impression this was going to be their first time. If she was familiar with his place I think her response would have been way different.
Nope, I think she was just an air head.
@sammy,
sorry to say, but people weren’t even civilised in italy during 3000 BC, so pizza most definitely didn’t exist.
again, sorry for crushing your joke.
poor italian savages
LE,
“Nope, I think she was just an air head.”
At her place, she knows where the best lighting is. At his place, she doesn’t know what she’s walking into if she’s never been there.
If it’s their first time, she want’s to leave the best impression. š
Poor Italian Savages?? What about Greek Gods āļøā
To Sammy, once upon a time in LwL, the word ācultureā had never existed until Christianity was bornā¦ all the Olympian Gods were running around in woods with a woodenš· in hand, šø in head šŗ , and š dangling on their waistā¦ š
@Avik CR.
Hello, Avik. Nice to meet you. I see your name now and again in the comments. I also see you have a very bad case of “logical boy brain”. The bad news is you’ll find fault with all my jokes. The good news is you’ll fit in very well here. Limerent Emeritus is a good person for you to talk to. I don’ t know if he knows his Chemistry. But he does know his Physics, his Marine Biology, and his Modern History. š
Technicalities may have crushed my joke for you. However, they didn’t crush my joke for me. I still find my joke funny. I have often encountered a slice of pizza in my fridge that looked so old and hard it could be petrified – a relic from prehistoric times. The precise genesis of said pizza is immaterial. The humour of my joke lies in the exaggeration – yea, even the obvious falsification of dates. š¤£š
@Marcia.
“At her place, she knows where the best lighting is.”
Now that’s a funny line. Unfortunately, we can’t broadcast it on TV until after 8.30pm. I know you used to work in vaudeville, Miss Mae West the Second, but please stay mindful of younger viewers. š
@Snowphoenix.
I can’t respond intelligently to your comment – as per usual – because I can’t decipher the hieroglyphics you’re using. Did you write it in Ancient Greek or Ancient Hebrew? It is a prose poem or is it a work of poetic prose? Those cute little pictures mean nothing to me. š
I think Avril meant that the Italians were “poor savages” due to the alleged scarcity of pizza throughout the Italian peninsular circa 3000 BC – a very funny joke indeed, if a tad highbrow for the average punter. š
Sammy,
ā Technicalities may have crushed my joke for you. However, they didnāt crush my joke for me.ā
My guess is Avik made a joke of his/her own, not being serious.
āThe bad news is youāll find fault with all my jokes. The good news is youāll fit in very well here.ā
Ouch!
Sammy,
“Now thatās a funny line.”
I appreciate you finding it funny, but I was serious. š You go back to his place, he has hideous fluorescent lighting. It’s like being examined in a doctor’s office. No woman wants that! š At her place she’s already set up the dimmer switches, she gets some candles out … š
“Unfortunately, we canāt broadcast it on TV until after 8.30pm. I know you used to work in vaudeville, Miss Mae West the Second, but please stay mindful of younger viewers. š”
It’s after 8: 30 p.m. somewhere . š
@ sammy,
so Limerent Emeritus knows physics, marine biology and modern history, eh? does he know what lattice qcd or aphotic zone mean?
btw, u still have some o’that pizza? it would help with groundbreaking discoveries in microbiology and archaeology.;)
and btw, if you spend hours reading wikipedia every day, who won’t have logical person brain?
“a very funny joke indeed, if a tad highbrow for the average punter.”
highbrow? you still believe in phrenology?
@Mila.
Sammy says: “The bad news is youāll find fault with all my jokes. The good news is youāll fit in very well here.ā
Mila says: “Ouch!”
Ah, Mila, sweet Mila. I haven’t offended you, have I, by implying you or other posters don’t have a sense of humour? That wasn’t my intention at all, my dear… I was making a joke at my own expense. š
What I was trying to say is that I understand what it feels like to be limerent. When in limerence, one isn’t always in the mood for constant cheerfulness, you know? One sometimes feels pretty low and intense and raw and goal-driven and super-serious and very sensitive emotionally. When in this particular mental state, one might find flippant remarks a little bit irritating, no? One might be looking for a more considered emotional response to one’s pain…
Also, I worry about my taste when it comes to humour. I sometimes fear the level of taste I show can’t match the level of taste people like you show, oh Mila, sweet Mila. We can’t all be queens of the runway. šš
@Marcia.
“I appreciate you finding it funny, but I was serious. š”
You were being serious? Good for you, honey. Good for you. The line is still funny, though, because it shows your mind works in a lateral way. You’re a lateral thinker and not a linear thinker. Most of the things you say will come across as funny to linear thinkers. š
“Itās after 8: 30 p.m. somewhere . š”
I see you are an optimist! š
“Itās after 8: 30 p.m. somewhere . š”
That’s what he said! š¤£
@Avik.
“and btw, if you spend hours reading wikipedia every day, who wonāt have logical person brain?”
I’m not sure who you suspect of reading wikipedia for hours every day. You could be referring to (a) yourself, (b) Limerent Emeritus, or (c) me.
I’m pretty sure you’re not referring to me, though. Compared to the vast store of masculine wisdom you and Limerent Emeritus have acquired in life, I likely come across as “just an air head”. šš
Hi Sammy,
I wasnāt offended at all, I actually donāt know why I highlighted it- maybe to show that itās always difficult to judge if someone is serious or joking, and if the joke is meant to sting or not, if itās in writing. Not tone of voice or look to soften or explain. Thatās why people use Emojis, I guess, to prevent misunderstandings of underlying emotions. (Not that I say you should start using a bunch of Emojis!)
But thatās the interesting thing about writing too!
@Mila.
“I wasnāt offended at all, I actually donāt know why I highlighted it- maybe to show that itās always difficult to judge if someone is serious or joking, and if the joke is meant to sting or not, if itās in writing.”
How are you, darling? Hope you are doing well. Thank you, as always, for your input. I believe, as a woman, you may exert something of a “civilising influence” on us i.e. the irascible menfolk of LwL. š
I think in responding you probably wanted to stick up for newcomer Avik, and I think that shows you are a very sweet person at heart indeed. Avik is a bit younger than the rest of us, from the sound of things; your protective instincts quite naturally kicked in.
I think you were approaching things from a softer, conventionally feminine, feelings-based angle and I appreciate your approach because it’s not something I think of naturally. In group discussions, I don’t think about people’s feelings first and foremost, and so sometimes I can accidentally hurt other people’s feelings. š²š¤
If Avik wished to crack a few jokes, as you most correctly seemed to sense, then he certainly has a good sense of humour, and is to be commended. I think Avik very tentatively just wanted to be part of the group, and maybe humour was his way of “testing the waters” or “breaking the ice” with us – which is, of course, completely fine.
You’re just being a mother hen and keeping an eye out for newcomers. You are to be commended on your kind nature. š
Ah Sammy,
now you err on the good side, Iām not that motherly š
I mean you are right, I have the tendency to defend people and try to see the good in everyone, but Iām not sure if this is out of sheer goodwill and feminine nature:) or if itās simply being scared of conflict.
But please letās not dig into my personality today , because today Iām, as you describe it, āpretty low and intense and raw and goal-driven and super-serious and very sensitive emotionally.ā
Might or might not make a post about it, Iām not sure.
Have a good day, Sammy!
@Mila.
“Have a good day, Sammy!”
Have a good day, Mila. Sorry to hear you are feeling low. Hope you feel better again soon. š
P.S. It’s a lot easier for me to be “constantly cheerful” than other posters, because my most severe mood swings have completely stopped, which is lovely. I can remember, though, feeling wretched and not being able to control/predict those very low moods. š
@sammy
I was referring to myself. no offense but i think you might be an “air head”, assuming it means “not a nerd”. dont worry, though. i see almost everyone as an air head.you know, its hard to find people like myself nowadays.
if mr.emeritus is like me,however, then i guess coming here was worthwile after all.
ą®Øą®©ąÆą®±ą®æ.
Sammy,
“You were being serious? Good for you, honey. Good for you. ”
Yeah! You have an “evening” planned with a new potential. You want to be prepared! Good lighting. Good underwear. š
“The line is still funny, though, because it shows your mind works in a lateral way. Youāre a lateral thinker and not a linear thinker. Most of the things you say will come across as funny to linear thinkers.”
Ha! I had to look up “lateral thinker.” Thank you. That’s a compliment.
“āItās after 8: 30 p.m. somewhere . šā
Thatās what he said! š¤£”
LOL. Sounds like a line from Michael Scott in “The Office.” š
@Avik.
In English, “air head” means bimbo. “Airhead”, in the sense Limerent Emeritus used it, means “an attractive but unintelligent female”. It is perhaps not the kindest or most respectful thing one could say about someone else even if it happens to be true. š
“Air head” is certainly not a chivalrous thing to say, and it sounds like you’re a young man interested in impressing females. It’s unlikely to endear a male to a female. Maybe in the context LE used in it, it was somewhat justified. However, it still wasn’t a very kind thing to say.
I don’t really think of myself as an airhead, not least because I’m not female and don’t cultivate that stereotype, although I certainly enjoy some of the culture airheads are said to enjoy. I also don’t think of myself as a nerd, although I fit in just fine with the nerd boys and enjoy some of the culture nerds are said to enjoy. I see both terms as quite silly, really. I think of myself as someone who doesn’t belong to any specific group, and doesn’t need to belong to any specific group. Since I’m an adult, I do my best to get along with all humans.
I think, when I was at school, other people chose to put me in the nerd category. They envied me for what they perceived to be my brains, and they took pleasure in competing with me academically and trying to best me. I never understood this envy/competitiveness from others as I never defined myself in the terms others used.
As one leaves the years of school and college behind, one may well be shocked at how clever and how accomplished all the non-nerd kids turn out to be. It rarely pays to take too much pride in one’s own giftedness or confine people to boxes.
School/college is often a hothouse environment. You may find you’re less prone to infatuation when you’re no longer in such an artificial environment. In terms of your own healthy psychological development, the more people you can mix with, the better.
Limerent Emeritus is a nice man with a successful marriage, who can tell some very entertaining tales about his past. But if you really want to learn about life, listen to what everybody has to say and then draw your own conclusions. There’s a wealth of insight here. š
Two basic rules of engagement:
(1) Don’t try too hard to impress people with your nerdiness. The best kind of nerdiness is the kind of nerdiness that doesn’t need to advertise itself as such i.e. discreet nerdiness.
(2) Show everyone the kindness that you yourself would like to be shown. Show yourself the kindness you’d like others to show you, too.
@sammy,
Hi. I had to look up what bimbo meansā¦
I dont want to “impress females”, except maybe oneā¦
now I can completely understand comments relating to “air heads” . when you’re a non native english speaker, it is hard to understand some terms and phrases natives use and easy to make up your own meanings for them.
where i live we say “mud head” – in my laanguage of course – so i could get some of what that meant, though here we use it for everyone.
i did not know it was not a very polite thing to say.
as for the nerdiness, i used to have a very good friend and we used to talk about god knows what everyday.
when he moved, i became bored at first, then started feeling like all this knowledge was for nothing.
one major reason i got an LO was she knew more than a lot of people I knew.
just wanted to vent out my – i guess you can say – pent up knowledge, that’s all.
ą®Øą®©ąÆą®±ą®æ.
Well, this thread has taken on a life of its own.
My point was the woman was using “safe sex” outside of its generally accepted definition in all seriousness. The term has one. The conversation was pretty funny to eavesdrop on.
https://youtu.be/dTRKCXC0JFg?feature=shared
For the record, the guy came across as no threat to Einstein, either.
well thank YOU for starting it!
I have an SO and have a child too. Things got difficult between us because our child was diagnosed with an issue and without realising it, I became limerent for someone at work. I made it awkward with the LO and realised that he figured out my feelings and decided to completely avoid me.
I was careful to reach out as I left my old workplace but I was really struggling with my family issues and poured a bit of the story to the LO. He was avoiding meeting me in person and after one chat on the phone I decided to cut him off. However my limerence has not decreased in intensity. Though I’m not in touch with the LO or in any form of contact/social media, I am still very hung up on him and suffer every day.
I want to reach out to him because I feel guilty that I messed up but I fear it would only make everything worse. I told my SO about my feelings and he didn’t take it well so I haven’t been able to talk about how much I’m suffering to my SO. Nothing ever happened with my LO but I just feel destroyed. I read all the 3 limerence books and just can’t seem to get myself out of this.
Hi LL,
Limerence has the tendency to come along in difficult times. There are plenty of stories here on LwL of people becoming limerent by sharing difficulties in life with a sympathetic person, especially at the work place. I think Dr L had a blog entry on over sharing and the dangers of it.
I would caution against reaching out to LO. What would be the purpose? What is done is done and you need to move on and it sounds like you have momentum with NC now. I would encourage you to maybe get into therapy to have someone to talk with because it seems as if this whole LE came out of other issues that perhaps you need to work through.
After I became limerent for a coworker and I realized I was in deep distress I got into therapy and it helped a ton to work through my feelings and my past issues that caused my LE. And though it didn’t ‘cure’ limerence it did help me understand myself a lot better and be able to manage what was happening.
Best wishes and feel free to come here often if you need to discuss all this. People here are really understanding and quite wise.
@Limerent Lady,
Speed made plenty of great points in his post. I agree that NC will be of good help for you. My LE is very much NC at this point. Only on a rare occasion do I see my LO.
One other thought you might consider is realizing your LO may have decided to avoid you, not because he isn’t interested, but because things in his life right now just can’t accommodate you. (This was something that used to help me) He might be completely available but taking care of a sick family member. Or perhaps he has something personal about himself he is uncomfortable with sharing, when it comes to getting to know new people. Like maybe he’s a convicted felon.
I mean there are things you just never really consider, when this limerence thing takes over. Everything looks beautiful and perfect from the outside, but once you see past the exterior, it all can change very fast. This is an issue many limerents experience.
Perhaps my suggestion is of no good use, but your struggle is real and I’m sorry you are hurting at the moment. These feelings will subside over time if you stay devoted to NC and focus your mind on other purposeful living strategies.
I would say focus things back to your SO and try to repair any damage from this. It does not sound like all hope is lost.
Come back and update us when you can.
Thank you MJ. Sent a longer response just now. I really appreciate this. Thanks for your support.
Thanks Speedwagon,
I appreciate your insights. I am going to therapy and in spite of not seeing the guy the intensity of pain and my longing is still high. I think it’s because he abruptly avoided me which left me without closure but after I spoke on the phone with him I still didn’t get closure though he was polite with me. The LO is married with 2 kids and I have 1 kid myself. Things haven’t been good at home so when I left my workplace I cried in front of the LO and his response wasn’t empathetic. My limerent episode has lasted 1.5 years so far.
I worry that I’m seeking thrills at my new workplace to fill that void. There have been a few potential LOs that I’ve dodged so far/caught myself on before the fire spread. Also, the LO from my old workplace lives in my neighbourhood so I find myself looking out for him but the couple of times I did see him by chance he still walked past me after a quick wave. He didn’t want to talk to me (he was jogging).
Please do share the blog post about oversharing with LOs and the dangers of it. I definitely don’t want to fall prey to this again and really hope that my pain and hurt will disappear. I love my SO, it’s just that we’re going through a very rough period with our child.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/oversharing/
šš»
Sorry to hear you are struggling so much. It’s a bit interesting that after he so distinctly dismissed you, you have stayed so limerent. Typically removing the uncertainty helps tamper the LE. What triggered the LE with him? Was he initially very engaging or kind with you? Can you pinpoint something with him you are now still hanging on to? I suppose LO being a neighbor would be tough and keeps that little bit of flame alive. I don’t think one more contact is generally a good idea but Dr L had a blog about closure too. Perhaps it could help.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/closure-is-an-illusion/
Thank you Mila and Speed for both blog posts. I really appreciate them, both are relevant and spot on to my issue. Thanks for taking time to hear me out. You are far too kind.
To what triggered the LE, I’ll start with my SO… He has been really distant from me for years and our connection has faded. When our child got diagnosed I was left with most of it and he got sucked into work and other people’s issues. He’s corrected things and stepped up since then but I think our connection has cooled off. I love him and don’t want to leave him though but we don’t have a good connection at present. Our work is hard because we are in very demanding posts and I’m always taking care of my child and working late to compensate. So l dont have much happiness outside of work and with my SO. I don’t think I can go to him and most of the time we end up going around in circles.
Now, my LO was a superior at work but I wasn’t limerent about him at first. I just found him interesting and we had some good conversations, and he really validated me publicly about my work achievements. I got to know him a little bit and once he hugged me lightly in the office. This is my imagination but I felt like he found me attractive as I’d sometimes catch him looking at me. What turned this lighthearted interaction into an LE for me is that I gave him a ride home once as I knew he lived near and then I felt awkward and apologized. That made him realise I had feelings for him and he started behaving like a weirdo and avoiding me like the plague which hurt me and made me obsessed. I really craved that connection with him but it clearly wasn’t real and my self esteem hit rock bottom. He didn’t want to meet me when I left my workplace and only wanted to talk on the phone. Maybe he spoke about me to his wife and must have decided that talking to me is no good. It made me feel horrible but I kept emailing him (short emails, telling him about my child). So 1.5years later I’m still not over it and also not able to fix things with my SO.
I’m trying to fulfil my unmet needs and focus on career success but it’s not enough. I feel horrible every day and I really wish life were easier. But I have a special child and the responsibility is too high. I just pray that this will lighten and all I want is peace of mind.
“This is my imagination but I felt like he found me attractive as Iād sometimes catch him looking at me.”
This is what got to me too. I started feeling a vibe of attraction from this woman at work and I opted to lean into it a bit and be flirty and boom, next thing I know I’m deep in an LE (not knowing what an LE was until about 6 weeks later).
The feeling of someone new finding us attractive or desirable can be a very powerful drug. I got swept up in it, but I now have also put in the work to better myself and my marriage and I am in a much better place. Not through it all yet but on my way.
I hope Lovisa sees your story, I think she could have some great words for you.
Hi Speed, I hope you recover from this soon too. Indeed the need for validation is addictive. My therapist is asking me to work on self compassion and to learn to not rely on external validation but it’s hard. Hope you feel better about it.
Hi Limerent Lady,
Speedwagon has summed it up nicely. The way I see it, you were primed for limerence:
1) You were vulnerable or had some great stressor in life (your child’s diagnosis);
2) Your primary relationship had some issues (distant husband) and your pair bonding was weak so you were ready for another pair bond to form (which is limerence);
3) You were in need of validation (that you were still attractive since your husband is not acting like he is attracted with his distant behavoir) or escape (from difficulties);
4) There was uncertainty (the attraction vibe is the promise of validation, and the uncertainty rivets your attention); and
5) You are probably a rather hopeful person (therefore LO’s rejection or distance didn’t cause the death of hope).
So, it is unfortunate, but you shouldn’t beat yourself up for it; I really believe the context of your life made all the factors add up so that limerence was ready to happen. I had a similar situation.
Thank you for this Carrie, in the past my way to overcome a limerent episode when I was single was transference/or finding a new LO.
My defences are particularly low at this moment with high external stressors so I just feel more vulnerable than usual and it’s hard to recover. However I need to put in the inner work and the self compassion is helping. Thanks for providing me a compassionate response.
Limerent Lady hi,
I hear your cry and anguish. Itās not easy to deal with a special child , and a SO that seems detached. Maybe heās afraid, and doesnāt know how to handle this situation. Have you tried counseling? You need professional help, I believe, to get SO more involved in your marriage. Now is the time you most need his help, and be close to one another.
No Contact doesnāt mean one automatically gets rid of limerence, this thing seems to linger more than we would like to. It takes great effort and patience. The most important thing is the killing of all hope with LO.
Suggest you read Dr. Lās blog:
LwL/ The death of hope
December 5, 2020.
I pray and hope you find peace of mind and quick solution to your ordeal. Best wishes.
Thank you so much. I will read through this and appreciate the advice. Agree with this.
Hi Limerent Lady, welcome to our club. I noticed that Speedwagon felt like I might be of service to you, which is quite a compliment coming from Speedy. Iāve read through your story and the responses from our LwL community and I feel like you are getting the attention you need. I also think you will benefit from interacting with MJ and Speedwagon because they can give you the male perspective. I must say that I met Speedwagon when I was trying to figure out my own limerence and he was very helpful! MJ came along later in my process, but he has given me some helpful conversations as well. I see that some of our female members have taken interest in your story and they are also being compassionate and helpful. I canāt add much.
I think it is in your best interest to continue connecting with our community. I suspect that you already feel a level of relief just knowing that you are understood and accepted here.
If you can work on your marriage, please do. I donāt know what that will look like for you. You said that your husband seems distant. I donāt know what youāve tried to bridge that gap so please forgive that my suggestions might not be helpful. I would like for you to familiarize yourself with the work of two relationship experts: John Gray and Alison Armstrong. There is a lovely woman on YouTube, Michelle Marchent Johnson, who has done interviews with both Alison and John. I will link some of those interviews.
https://youtu.be/FkpkF_96Dfo?si=mdcmEJxwcKRSFIXl
https://youtu.be/1vC9HvG3oas?si=NsoIiBGo_IFEpWSk
I love Alison Armstrongās book: āMaking Sense of Men.ā Itās short and helpful. Iām linking it below, but sometimes external links donāt work. Hopefully this one will work.
Making Sense of Men: A Woman’s Guide to a Lifetime of Love, Care and Attention from All Men
If those two relationship experts donāt interest you, I recommend that you check out Brian Knoxās channel. Iāll link one of his videos.
https://youtu.be/QPhJlpwmRbI?si=00iqVHAm9c76dMAS
He is adorable so even if you donāt appreciate his content, youāll probably enjoy listening to him.
The reason I am suggesting that you listen to relationship experts, is because getting your husbandās attention is important. It is important for both of your sakes.
I have really good news for you. This struggle with your child CAN bring you and your husband closer together. Men love a challenge. They love to be on a team. If you and your husband work together to solve problems as they arise, and celebrate the successes, your bond will strengthen. I will link a video that explains it better than I can.
I hope this is the right video. Adam Smith is the correct content creator, but Iām not sure if this is the video that Iām thinking of.
https://youtu.be/fKDO1PPwCH4?si=5ZJo1_eXe9Suw4Sm
This stuff may not even be helpful to you, but at least you know that a stranger on the internet cares about you. I care that youāre struggling. I hope to lift that burden off you if I can.
There are two more things that I want to address with you.
First, letās talk about shame. Shame is not helpful. When we feel shame, we reach for comfort which is often our negative coping mechanisms. I hope that you can accept that you are a limerent and you are currently experiencing an LE. It doesnāt say anything about the quality of your character. Itās just something that you will probably struggle with off and on for the rest of your life. You didnāt choose this. Just accept it. Try not to beat yourself up about it.
Letās talk about intrusive thoughts. I suspect that before your LO went Limited Contact with you, I suspect that you enjoyed daydreaming about your LO. It was probably soothing and sometimes euphoric. The pleasant daydreams turned into painful reminders when your LO stopped talking to you. These intrusive thoughts are a result of those daydreams. You programmed your mind to think about LO because it felt so good. Your brain wants to please you so it started bringing LO into your thoughts more and more. Now it wonāt stop pushing LO into your thoughts even though you donāt like it anymore. Iāll link a video about intrusive thoughts.
How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts
by Mark Freeman
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
Iām going to tell you how I escaped limerence. I transferred my limerence and made a conscious effort not to daydream about my new LO. It worked. Iām grateful!
Best of luck to you!
Limerent Lady
Miss Lovisa is very right about the shame. I beat myself up really bad when I first found this place. I had a lot of shame, guilt and self loathing. It really doesn’t get you anywhere. In fact, I feel, like for me, it actually held me in the limerence instead of helping me move past it. While I am still not easy on myself, I am better than what I use to be.
Accepting that the limerence happened, and that it was something that I had to get through, not blaming myself constantly, helped to make amends to my wife and sons. Now I try to look at it as a lesson in life. A warning that I can now heed should this situation arise again.
Good luck to you Limerent Lady
Hi Adam,
Hope you’re feeling better in your battle with shame. I am always feeling down and ashamed about everything. I read about cognitive filtering and I’m often trying to override my perspectives of situations & lighten the load. It’s hard but work in progress…
Thanks for your tips and I hope that things are better now.
Hi Lovisa,
This is a very helpful response. I have pinned the resources and will start working through them. Really very grateful.
“This stuff may not even be helpful to you, but at least you know that a stranger on the internet cares about you. I care that youāre struggling. I hope to lift that burden off you if I can.” – Absolutely love this. Thanks so much!
It is so helpful to know that I am not alone and that there’s people who can empathise and care. Really glad to have joined this community. I have a lot to work on in my marriage and your point about shame is valid too. I always have low self-esteem and beat myself up about almost everything.
Will get back to you once I’ve worked through some of these. Thanks for taking the time to write back to me.
That is good news. You are working towards a better tomorrow. I believe in you, Limerent Lady! You got this!
Limerent Lady,
Ms. Lovisa is the Community Den Mother here. Her response above was top notch. I feel like she always has a great way of tying together, what everyone is trying to say. Way more concisely, Imo, lol..
Brother Adam is pretty much a regular too and will probably get back to you before I can. His advice and help has been phenomenal throughout my time here.
Don’t beat yourself up too much. You too can come through this. You already sound like you have things somewhat in check. It’s not always easy but we get it. Nothing about limerence really is.
lol MJ, you flatter me. Thank you for your kind words. I think Limerent Lady will benefit from corresponding with our LwL men. Please continue to check on her when you can. I hope Adam and Speedwagon check in too. Her LE is too much for her SO to handle right now so hopefully you guys can walk this path with her for a while.
Limerent Lady
Unmet needs are the gasoline on the already fire of infatuation which burns into limerence. A weak connection in a relationship is just the itch that limerence needs for you to scratch.
Someone giving you that attention and consideration can be quite intoxicating. Then they leave. (Like she did.) Or they start distancing themselves for you. Which makes the craving even worse. All I can say, from my own limerence, don’t wait until there is a mushroom cloud of damage done before you say something. Don’t wait to say something like I did. I had to talk about those unmet needs after the damage was already done. Don’t be me.
Two years later and I am still trying to repair the damage. Rebuild the trust that was lost due to my infatuation with another woman. Then that conversation about unmet needs is quite different than if they had been talked about before. Now there is reluctance for them to try and fill those unmet needs. And really whose to blame? Not the spouse. Sure there were those unmet needs, but we are still responsible for our limerence.
This all I told my wife the night I found this place. Six months after she left the job. After worries of an affair of some kind on my part. After my boys knowing their father gave a woman the attention that I should have been giving their mother. I have lost respect from my own sons. Especially our youngest. It’s a lot to have to take.
I feel your words Limerent Lady. I do. I know where you are right now. I was there. The only reason I did disclose to her really is the fear of an affair and I felt that the explanation of limerence might soften the blow. I can’t say whether you should do so with your husband. But I can say to try and do what you can to strengthen that connection. Even if it means the uncomfortable conversation about these unmet needs.
Hi Lovisa, MJ and Adam:
Thank you so much once again for such amazing responses.
Adam, I agree that unmet needs and low self esteem totally trigger this and make us prey. My self esteem is so low with my SO at present that any small inch of male attention from elsewhere gets me wired. I could literally fall for anyone who gives me a bit of attention and I’ve definitely caught myself a few times in my new workplace and averted a crisis. I had an amazing lunch with this guy at work for example, and couldn’t stop thinking about him for a few days but we both felt that awkward energy afterwards. Thankfully nothing has come out of it and I’m fine (not obsessed). I have learned from the past but I really don’t want to fall for it again. It’s a black hole that I’m still not out of.
Regarding your marriage, sorry to hear that it’s been tough. I hope that you guys are able to work through these issues. Sorry to hear about the kids too, I’m not sure how old they are but in time they understand as they mature that we’re all human beings. Sending you lots of strength in your recovery too.
Thanks to all of you for helping me out and will definitely keep checking the site for new blogs. I have some rough periods with my workload so I don’t get to check this instantly or receive notifications but really appreciate your help!
Limerent Lady,
In my case, I am already divorced. Not due to anything related to my LE, but infidelity issues that came up over time, back years ago. I’ve been divorced since 2011. I have a Son from that Union, who is now 24 and a Daughter who is 18. So I have already been through the divorce wringer. It is not fun. Fortunately though, I have a somewhat caring Ex, who has never been too vindictive or needy, so it’s not been a horror show for me, like some men experience.
I do however, have much regret for the behaviors that ultimately led to the demise of my marriage and it causes me to overthink things now. This may not be a terrible thing, but it creeps into my relationships and I think that’s just me trying to be careful, not to overstep my place.
This limerence thing came out of nowhere, but I do now see much clearer, how and why it happened. I probably don’t need to get into all that detail now, but I know it happens because we are lacking some area in our lives, that we want to fix.
As Lovisa stated above, our brain wants to make us happy. My LO makes me very happy. It’s taming that beast, that we need to learn how to get under control. That’s why I still come here.
To add to my above comment, because I am overthinking..
I should not say that LO makes me happy, because it’s merely just a fake happiness. It’s my brain that’s telling me I’m happy, when infact I’m probably not really happy about her at all. I can’t even begin to tell you how hard I have cried over this Woman, and the depression I have felt over something I made such an enormous thing in my head. Limerence is just a creul joke.
I don’t even know my LO. As far as I know, she probably can’t even stand me, but my brain keeps telling me not to give up on that morsel of hope. When the fact remains, is that there probably is no real hope at all. Just a sick and twisted fantasy that feels all too euphoric sometimes..
My story is in the “Limerence for a Co-Worker” thread, if you care to read it. You may have to scroll back awhile to find it, but its there.
And here is MJ’s story (link)
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/#comment-40924
In this thread if you want to read more of his posts
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/#comments
MJ I was reading through your first posts here and my responses and I am really proud of how far you have come when you seemed so overwhelmed with your limerence. I always enjoying looking at those old posts and seeing people’s progress.
I wished Limmy posted here as much as she use to. She was there for me a lot in the begining and I could she was for you too. Such a caring and sweet woman.
Thanks for the cue Adam. We’ve always had a pretty decent rapport with everyone.
I was super overwhelmed back then but being that this never happened to me before, it was all uncharted territory.
Limmy was cool too but C for Cat needs to come back and update us. She was my buddy in the Coffeehouse..
Hi MJ and Adam,
Thanks for sharing more insights and details of MJ’s LE. MJ – I was able to go through some of your comments and I could feel your emotions of anguish as you were describing the experience with the female co-worker. It seems very similar to my episode though a lot of my LE was over email as we didn’t really see each other after I left my workplace.
How are you feeling now? Are you over it?
I am still scarred whenever I think of my LO but I’ve been keeping myself busy and tiring myself a lot to avoid having space to think about him. I blame myself because I have this theory that I ‘repelled’ him the moment I became limerent. Had I not apologized or made things awkward, maybe we’d be friends. It’s almost as if I have some repellent spray for men and it just keeps brining me down each time I fall for someone and they act like that. However, it was a blessing in disguise because reciprocation would have been nuclear given my vulnerable state.
I hear your feelings and it’s much harder when there’s no communication and uncertainty. The person avoids you for no reason and doesn’t even give you a fighting chance.
Sending you all lots of strength and thanks so much for welcoming me into this community.
@Limerent Lady
“How are you feeling now? Are you over it?”
In going back to where I was just a year ago, to where I am now, I feel like I am in a better place somewhat, emotionally. It’s been the road to get to where I am, has been paved with so many speed bumps along the way. There is a great fear of the unknown that keeps the LE flame, like embers somewhere glowing in the background. She is a safe spot for me but really not a healthy one because the LE is just so incredibly fraudulent and fake. I keep her there because when all else fails, to go back and ruminate, write poetry and sing songs off her playlist is something I still love to do.
To have had the event go basically NC by default, has probably been the biggest help in relaxing the thoughts and rumination. I can’t even fathom the red hot mess this would be if I was still seeing her every day like I was back then. I can’t imagine I wouldn’t have approached her by now, but I’m not the brightest bulb in the bunch either, so I might have just kept things at creep factor vibe level, just to avoid rejection. To me that always seemed better than knowing that fact for real. What ever little stupid sense that makes.
These days there’s just a lot of regret for not making things just happen with her, good or bad, because it would have helped give me direction, clarity and probably not the emotional mess I became. I can still look at a pic of her and bawl my eyes out. There is a part of me that misses our pointless little staring games, but I’m probably better off not getting my hopes up. To a limerent, that eye contact is the biggest deal and LO was a Master at sending my heart in a tizzy over it. I can think of no other Woman that even comes close to getting me so emotionally frazzled like she did, just by simply looking at me. In her eyes, I swear I was looking into eternity. That’s how I knew I was sick with something different in this crush. This had never happened to me before. So I think thats why it’s still so hard for me to want to entirely forget.
These days, I have to help care for my Father who is sick with Parkinsons. It’s just a slow slow decline everyday with him and there are always surprises that await. It takes up a ton of my time on the weekend but I am the only child, so it all falls on me.
Probably my other big help is being at work now, in a different building and on a different shift. I have many more Colleagues around in this place and a particular young Lady I have somehow by God’s grace, befriended. Ironically she is the same age as LO and is the sweetest thing ever. We’ve become pretty decent friends and she helps me to feel normal, when all too often I don’t. I’m not feeling like she is going to be my next girlfriend any time soon, but I do think she does sense my interest. Which I don’t really try to hide. More than anything I believe it flatters her. Or so I would like to believe. Sometimes I feel God has answered my prayer by sending me her friendship, but I fear she may not reciprocate in a way that I would like. So I don’t try to push an agenda. She just got out of a 10 year relationship anyway, so I really don’t want to be her fall-back guy. I just want to be that someone she can trust. I like that I’m so NOT limerent for her either. Just normal crushing for someone. It’s that normalcy that helps me to feel like I am coming out of the LE woods, slowly but surely.
Adam, Adam, Adam!
I come to check up on this place and what do I see? My friend Adam still remembers me! Thank you, that is so lovely.
I am so glad to read a few of your posts and see that you have dealt with that big block which was shame; and your deep knowledge of how unmet needs play a role in limerence. And passing on the wisdom to others in need. You are such a good man. I have always said this.
And Lovisa, still giving people love and encouragement. You are quite a woman!!!
And all you others here! So good to see how everyone is progressing. It may be slow and arduous but I can see how the development and everyone has come so far. I recently saw a quote that really applies to us all here: “I may not be where I want to be, but I am better than I used to be.” I feel this is so true, and we should have gratitude for every incremental improvement.
On my part, I never take it for granted that I freed myself both from a situation where my needs could never be met AND also freed myself from the worst of limerence (intrusive thoughts, obsession, the pain!) I think LO will always be … something like a nostalgic never-was, a bit of a sad ache of disappointment. LO is also the heart of one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life – mostly painful and awful (okay let’s be honest, torturous) but I can’t help but see it as one of the times in my life when I was totally alive and feeling all the things. It is one of the things I went through because I am human and I have a heart and a body, and I will try to see the limerence as … a part of life, like one’s first crush, or first kiss, or heartbreak. You can’t really escape pain if you are alive. It’s just this one is excruciating – and I have so much compassion for everyone here. I everyone will learn something from it, and that the price for this lesson won’t be too high.
Limey it’s nice to see your post again. You were one of the first responders to my first comment here months ago.
You are missed and so is your advice but nice to see you make an appearance again. Adam will be elated to see your post.
Hi MJ,
“There is a great fear of the unknown that keeps the LE flame, like embers somewhere glowing in the background. She is a safe spot for me but really not a healthy one because the LE is just so incredibly fraudulent and fake. I keep her there because when all else fails, to go back and ruminate, write poetry and sing songs off her playlist is something I still love to do.”
I know what you mean. The fantasies can be intoxicating. I play music so every song I sing is about him l. Tragic cliche…
Glad to know you’re developing a healthier approach with this new person. I hope I can be fully free of this. Just seeing your responses has helped a ton! I still imagine bumping into him and some days I’m angry because I felt he was cruel.
Taking care of someone with Parkinson’s is no joke. I can’t imagine how tiring it must be. Wishing you lots of happiness and peace. Hope we can all get through this.
@MJ.
I clicked on Adam’s link to your story. I still didn’t read it. I feel that if I allowed myself to read your story, I would be invading your privacy somehow, and I am either too lazy or too gentlemanly to do that. I did note the length of your opening comments, however, and I can see you certainly had a lot to get off your chest back then…
I must have mostly skipped the “limerent for a co-worker” blog, since the topic didn’t resonate with me. Co-workers aren’t a particular weakness of mine. However, I see the topic did resonate with a lot of people. The comments section is jam-packed!! I must have taken a fishing holiday that week. Probably a good thing. I think the conversation got a little too “grown-up” for me. (I may be in my early 40s, but my bedtime is 8.30pm on the dot). š
Am happy you are feeling better in general. Also glad you had peers to talk to when you first came here.
This comment is to explain why I didn’t automatically think of you when composing poem about LwL, although your name has always evoked positive associations for me. š
Best wishes, buddy. š
MJ
Yeah I miss C for Cat too. You and her had such a good rapport as you both chatted away in the Coffeehouse a lot. Sometimes I’d fire up LwL in the morning when I get to work and you and her would be all the “recently posted” notifications lol Also made me think about how Call Me Cordillera hasn’t posted in a while either. We made it to Friday! I’m ready for the weekend.
Miss Limmy!!!!!!!
Of course I remember you! You were there for me, like many others, when I was at my worst. How could I forget you? I am glad that you seem to be in a better place. There is one thing that you said that got to me …
“I think LO will always be ā¦ something like a nostalgic never-was”
This seems to be my thoughts of her. They aren’t intrusive and painful. It has been reduced to memories of someone that I cared about like any other person that has departed my life. I smile when I think of her or her daughter and then move on with what needs to be on my mind at the time.
I even have started a friendship with another woman that I know through my sister in law. A very nice lady that is fun and exciting. My brother and sister in law and her friend, this lady above, and I went out one Saturday night back in March and we all had lots of fun. And lots of drinks too lol She lives around my brother and sister in law in Montana. I look forward to them all visiting again and us going out again together. It’s a satisfying feeling of the start of a healthy friendship and not the obsession of limerence. She too, like LO, is divorced from a bad relationship. So I put my rescue complex in check right away. I can do this!
Good to see you again Miss Limmy. Don’t make me have to summon you every time you post now lol. Cause I’ll do it! š
@Limerent Lady,
Thank you for your kind words. It’s support like yours and so many others here, that help me realize I haven’t fallen out of my rocker yet. (Even though LO could still easily make me do that).
I’m glad you found us here and hope we can keep being of good help and support for you. Lord knows I’m always looking for any old porthole in the storm, to help me along the way.
See you around Friend..
@Sammy,
“I clicked on Adamās link to your story. I still didnāt read it. I feel that if I allowed myself to read your story, I would be invading your privacy somehow, and I am either too lazy or too gentlemanly to do that.”
All good Sammy. It is quite a lengthy and wordy first post. I read it again and can see I’ve easily come a long way since then. In no way would you be invading my privacy because it’s posted for anyone to read. So if I felt like it needed to be private, I wouldn’t have put it out there.
Pretty much if you did read it, you would probably believe, like so many others, I was only being creepy with the whole staring thing with LO. I don’t know. She was just so good at getting my hopes up and I know it probably didn’t even cross her mind, but whatever. I don’t hate her for it and I never will. Limerence is my fault. Her eventual negative body language spoke volumes and I did what I thought was the right thing to do by respecting it. Without her coming right out and being a bitch to me about it, she did the best she could to let me down.. I will never forget her though. She holds a special place in my heart.
As for the poem, I only made the comment to you because I love that line I refer to from “American Beauty”. It just fits so well and so easily, into so many of my conversations, that I just love to make light about it. It’s no biggie you forgot me. I’m glad though you do get good vibes from my posting here.. I try..
@Limmy, Adam,
“I think LO will always be ā¦ something like a nostalgic never-wasā
“This seems to be my thoughts of her. They arenāt intrusive and painful. It has been reduced to memories of someone that I cared about like any other person that has departed my life”
Both of you hit the nail on the head with this comment. I feel like this is exactly how I am feeling about LO a lot these days. At the store again the other night, another one of her playlist songs came on and I admit I was tearing up but it seemed to only hurt a little, but I sang along with it anyway. It’s just something I can’t help, because LO just does that. Maybe it’s growth or simple insanity. Guess it doesn’t matter.
It’s just nice to know I’m still not alone in my deeper feelings for someone, that all of you here seem to understand very well. To come here to share these stories is a blessing..
Happy Friday to you all.. Drinks are on me.. š„
Hi MJ, I remember your 1st posts. I don’t think I commented much, but I was rather judgemental on reading them tbh. I think as we get older we do make judgements and decide our opinions quicker. Just want to say thank you for teaching me to be less judgemental of first impressions and being more forgiving. Your posts are always extremely honest, open and authentic. I know things aren’t perfect but you have been doing small steps in the right direction. Best wishes
@MJ.
“I love that line I refer to from āAmerican Beautyā. ”
The line you used from “American Beauty” is **cough, cough** a real beauty. š
When I was younger, for some reason, possibly upbringing, I thought it was wrong for myself or other people to “complain” – however mildly and however humorously – when they wanted attention/recognition from others. In Australia, I think it’s called “whinging” and it’s a national pastime. However, now I’m older, I realise people often won’t get any attention unless they speak up.
If there’s any group of people that need to learn to be more assertive during social interactions in general, it’s probably limerents.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease! š
@Imho,
“Your posts are always extremely honest, open and authentic.”
Not trying to move any mountains with my posts. Just trying to keep things šÆ.
Thank you for your honesty.
Great video, very insightful. Easy to see how important a skilled therapist can be to help navigate that situation.
I especially related to the final exchange… the betrayed no longer feeling safe within the relationship and “waking up from the matrix” i.e. the safety of marriage was always, in part at least, an illusion and once that reality is felt, it is not really possible to go back.
Allie 1, hi
Just think of a vase falling down and breaking into pieces, no matter how much you patch it up, the cracks (scars) will still showā¦ once that security is gone, nothing can restore it again. Thereāll be always doubt and suspicion. Sad, but true.
Happy Motherās Day!
Allie 1, Nisor,
Thatās when the idea Wabi-Sabi could be applied to the art of living ā living in peace with ābroken and amended vasesā¦ā.
https://youtu.be/QmHLYhxYVjA?si=SPIKVd2lBEfDHm28 ā History of Ideas ā Wabi-Sabi.
I have amended an important coffee mug with the golden rims provided by a Wabi-Sabi kit,
Snow hi,
It all brings to mind the concepts of beauty, harmony and rhythm in a relationship , if one can find it in a person, then it is perfect. If one doesnāt see it beautiful, then it isnāt. The same applies to harmony and rhythm.
Remember the adage: āBeauty is in the eye of the beholder.ā
Good point, Snow;)
No perfection ever in anything and anyoneā¦
Amended relationship could be more valuable, since both sides have become wiser and more skilled in a harmonious, beautiful dual danceā¦
Snow hi,
In certain cases it may work making the amendments, perhaps, in theory.
Reality, and after living a long life, seen a lotā¦ I can tell you of a few cases I have seen personally:
1) the husband left for another woman, had a child with her, got separated and returned to his wife. The wife received him but never again had relationship with him, stayed like friends.
2) The husband had a few affairs, the wife accepted them , continued relationship as usual but said she never recovered from the wounds. Never trusted him again when near strange women.
3) The husband left the wife, married another woman, had two kids, divorced, married again; the first wife commits suicide. (She was expecting him to come back).
4) My friendās SO, moved with his lover, they got divorced, the SO loses his lover. Now heās alone.
Weāre talking here about betrayal, no? All you have to do is look up At divorce rates in USA, first marriage is about 55%? Second marriage 70%? They divorce for little things such as being āmaterialistic ā , in the case of my LOā¦ can you imagine betrayal?
And it is said that many stay married due to economical problems, duties because of children, or religion forbidding divorce, co-dependency, etc. etc. Else the divorce rates would be even higher!
It also depends on how much the betrayed one loves the other person. His/her self esteem, values, principles, peer pressure, etc. it all plays a roll. So the vase šŗ is not easy to reconstruct after all, just in a few rare occasions, it could happen, but is not the norm.
My two cents.
Nisor,
I think itās better to use dual dancing as a metaphor for a relationship, since itās moving and evolving. A vase is stagnating, broken or amended not.
IMO, an inspiring, invigorating, and harmonious dance involves three vital elements: dancersā wish (to give and take love), innate compatibility (no colored uniforms with whinny poets), and open-mind (edit/rewrite the cultural script) to train and polish the dance in scopes and styles.
ā1) the husband left for another woman, had a child with her, got separated and returned to his wife. The wife received him but never again had relationship with him, stayed like friends.ā
In this case, the wife didnāt truly forgave the husband betrayal or make any efforts transform/redesign their dual dance. There is no wish or skills on her side.
ā2) The husband had a few affairs, the wife accepted them , continued relationship as usual but said she never recovered from the wounds. Never trusted him again when near strange women.ā
The husband does not have loving wish to maintain or advance a qualified dual dance with his wife, and she was unable to heal her own wounds and tolerated their crap coexistence. They are not in the same stage, let alone dancing together!
ā3) The husband left the wife, married another woman, had two kids, divorced, married again; the first wife commits suicide. (She was expecting him to come back).ā
If the unfortunate wife recognized and accepted they two were not, and would not be, a workable match and then searched for another workable partner or strived to live independently with content, she at least could survive. Her short-sighted expectation is her downfall.
ā4) My friendās SO, moved with his lover, they got divorced, the SO loses his lover. Now heās alone.ā
The SO did not dance well with your friend; he and his lover could not dance well, too, for whatever reasons. It sounds like he did not have relational dancing skills, which inevitably led to his aloneness, miserably or contently?
āWeāre talking here about betrayal, no? All you have to do is look up At divorce rates in USA, first marriage is about 55%? Second marriage 70%? They divorce for little things such as being āmaterialistic ā , in the case of my LOā¦ can you imagine betrayal?ā
As long as monogamy is morally insisted/adopted, betrayal will exist no matter where and when. Human beings are not DNA-coded/evolved as swans. āInfidelityā happens all the time (married or not), if not in reality, still in mind. Our logic mind CANNOT drive/control our instinctual drives. LwL helps confirm my belief even more!
āAnd it is said that many stay married due to economical problems, duties because of children, or religion forbidding divorce, co-dependency, etc. etc. Else the divorce rates would be even higher!ā
Itās absolutely true! But I donāt define relationship/marriage out of convenience or duty as a beautiful dual dance, which is truly rareā¦. I feel sorry for those relationship āprisonā. Staying free, one could at least hope/dream and train and polish oneself for a future dual dance.
āIt also depends on how much the betrayed one loves the other person. His/her self esteem, values, principles, peer pressure, etc. it all plays a roll.ā
If adopting Stoic healthy pessimistic point of view on life in general and seeing betrayal as one of life defaults, one can at least prepare in advance for its arrival. When it arrives, one would not feel devastated but calmly discern if the relationship is amendable. If not, move on. Who says that a marriage/relationship is meant to last for eternity?
āSo the vase šŗ is not easy to reconstruct after all, just in a few rare occasions, it could happen, but is not the normā.
An authentic inspiring, energizing, harmonious dance is ALWAYS rare, it takes tremendous amount of work with deep affections/love. If one lays in the āsafeā, complacent bed made with a marriage license, s/he will fall off the bed soon or later.
Nonetheless few (definitely less than 20%, perhaps 1-5%) strong rational mind, filled with loving wishes and supported by relationship skills could make a lasting inspiriting, invigorating, and harmonious relational dance.
These are just my one-penny theory.
Hi Snowy,
How are you doing, my dear, alright, I hope? Your last few comments have been ever-so-slightly-perkier than they were over the past month, as everything came to a stop with LO7. I have been thinking about you a lot and I hope that you are mending that beautiful vase of yours, with all its cracks and bruises. The bruises are valuable, in a way. I know that it must be so tough but you are a strong one.
I will update you on my progress soon. I am really feeling the pain of others among us is too large, at the moment, for me to be wittering on about my hard case.
Sending lots of ghost hugs.
Hi Bewitched,
I canāt believe that I just saw your posts of 6 days ago! I missed several posts in this thread, must be subconsciously thought the topic has little to do with meā¦
āHow are you doing, my dear, alright, I hope?ā
Going through shades of moods each day, mostly dark. A meditation is must meals each day, which helps dissipate both mentalāpainsā and physical stuck energy; but each sessionās effect does not last long as before, it is so true that emotions and thoughts ācontrolā/affect mind and thus bodyā¦
āYour last few comments have been ever-so-slightly-perkier than they were over the past month, as everything came to a stop with LO7. ā
Last week, it did feel like the world was spinning to its end, I almost felt choking, heart flutter, constantly at the verge of panic attack. I did not binge on anything, but watched my mind closelyā¦the trouble is that I do not have tears and I am unable to shoutā¦ This week āthe stormā has calmed down a little bit; I know nothing I can do to alter the reality ā the ādeathā!
āI have been thinking about you a lot and I hope that you are mending that beautiful vase of yours, with all its cracks and bruises. ā
Two major cracks in the vase ā losing the sight of LO and job at the same time! Although I knew 9 months ago and tried so hard to mentally prepare for it, itās still futile! When emptying out my office and seeing others moving out of theirs, my mind shatteredā¦ā I hate/fear the sight of an empty space. The scene was just like I had dreamed last December, so sad and hauntingā¦ After Wednesdayās department farewell lunch, I have to figure out a way to close this episode of my lifeā¦
Now, LO7 is out of sight, then guess what? LE gets stronger, since there is no more reality check. For me, as time passes, my mind tends to remember only light sides of everything and everyone in the pastā¦ some memories could even be ātwistedā to their brighter versionā¦ the imagination goes wilder without the refraining of reality.
āThe bruises are valuable, in a way. I know that it must be so tough but you are a strong one.ā
Or dear, itās not just bruises, itās ābleedingā ā I could frequently feel my lips trembling, body on fire whenever I could not help recall the misfortunate of the one-way goodbye last week š¢ā¦. I want to punch/break something, but I canāt; I want to scream, but could not. (A little girl student asked me whether I smoke ā not in my entire life, because it sounded hoarse)
I do not know how strong I am, but I donāt like to and cannot complain to anyone else in realityā¦ so now the sun only shines briefly after my mediation; otherwise, the sky were just ācloudyāā¦
Thank you for your caring, Bewitched! š«
Dear Snowphoenix,
It sounds like a dull grey experience, alright. Certainly I sympathise as I am in the same place, more or less, probably not as painful but dull and grey for sure.
I wanted to respond with some things that I think you have going in your favour despite the gloom and ‘blocked energy’. Firstly, I think that the fact that you ‘hate goodbyes’ is a wonderful quality. You may experience the pain when they are enforced on you, and I know that you have said that hating goodbyes is reinforced by your uncured cptsd, but, this is also a wonderful quality because it makes you a lovely friend and partner to have, not avoidant, not fickle, loyal, all the things that make other people stay connected with you.
“Now, LO7 is out of sight, then guess what? LE gets stronger, since there is no more reality check. For me, as time passes, my mind tends to remember only light sides of everything and everyone in the pastā¦ some memories could even be ātwistedā to their brighter versionā¦ the imagination goes wilder without the refraining of reality.”
Rewriting history as a better version shows great wisdom. What would be point of doing it the other way and making things more hopeless? What we believe to be the narrative is a potentially powerful healer because we can weave it into something that helps us grow, heal and develop more empathy for others. There is no objective reality in this context, so we might as well view and believe what has happened in the most benevolent way?
“ā¦ After Wednesdayās department farewell lunch, I have to figure out a way to close this episode of my lifeā¦”
Good things are impossible to see now while you feel blocked and down and panicky. But, because you said that you do not have anyone to discuss this with, in reality, I want to comfort you virtually, because you might need a virtual hug right now. And you will rise like a phoenix, You mentioned in one of your posts that you have a big trip to COO planned, so I really hope that provides some space and time fr reflection. I also really hope you get excellent new job(s) because you seem to get a lot of reward from your work.
Take good care of yourself, Bx
@Bewitched,
Youāre soooo kind, caring and able to feel what Iāve been going through here. Your comforting, inspiring perspective on my dramatic LE āendingā, and a virtue š« are so appreciated here! š
āFirstly, I think that the fact that you āhate goodbyesā is a wonderful quality. ā
I hated it since very young (4-6 yrs) probably at a daily basis. I did not want to stay at the weekcare/daycare (missed Dadās pickup), but at home Mom either neglected or abused me, and I had no sibling to play with (missed other kids at weekcare?). I could not remember now which place I preferred more. I think a āgoodbyeā from both places must have upset me.
āYou may experience the pain when they are enforced on you, and I know that you have said that hating goodbyes is reinforced by your uncured cptsd, ā
A enforced goodbye means being āabandonedā to my cptsd dysregulated system. Physical death is the worse, then metaphorical one is no less painful, with one tiny sparkle remaining ā the other side is still alive somewhere on earth. One still has 0.1% hope to see or say hi to them, although one may choose not to.
āthis is also a wonderful quality because it makes you a lovely friend and partner to have, not avoidant, not fickle, loyal, all the things that make other people stay connected with you.ā
I was never avoidant but often dreamt to make substantial friends with people from the world over. Only in romantic relationship or limerence, Iām high anxiety loaded, worried or paranoid that a bf/LO would metaphorically abandon me w/o reasons (like Mom who was never with me, even today). As a result, I usually pulled myself out first before they had a chance to do it.
Last Friday was an example ā LO did/do not know that Iāve already bid a goodbye to his back and could/did not say a goodbye to me in person. We just disappeared on each other as the semester just, and forever, ended for both of us, though our social media windows are still open to each other. I will NEVER close it, keep some unknown colors to the evolving lifeā¦
āRewriting history as a better version shows great wisdom. What would be point of doing it the other way and making things more hopeless?ā
I agree with you here, but an ability to do so is highly challenging, while staring at the undeniable the dark sides of the reality. It was an ideal version of the parental LO as the Phantom elongated my LE for 6 years. But then the realistic LOās fishy behavior contradicted the ideal version in such a hurtful, ābetrayingā way that itāll take a long time for my mind to dull and eventually kill its pains.
āWhat we believe to be the narrative is a potentially powerful healer because we can weave it into something that helps us grow, heal and develop more empathy for others. ā
Very true!
āThere is no objective reality in this context, so we might as well view and believe what has happened in the most benevolent way?ā
Agree. The imagination part of my mind is able to do it soon or later; but now the ācoffinā is only laid into ground, soil has not be shoveled over it yet. Itās a memorial moment, somber and heavy.
āAnd you will rise like a phoenixā
Not sure about this, Iām feeling like a melting bird without her wings at the moment, and has no voice to screamā¦ š¶āš«ļø
āYou mentioned in one of your posts that you have a big trip to COO planned, so I really hope that provides some space and time fr reflection.ā
Yes, to my hometown in COO for a reunion. Iād meet up over 40-60 old classmates, friends, or ex-suitors who all know each other well. Weāll spend 5 days together touring a resort area full of the nature. Then, Iāll travel alone visiting other places to see relatives and old friends.
But in this trip, there is a small change to bump into LO2 šØ, while I wish to find LO1 š ā¦. Iāve lost their contact for decadesā¦
I enjoy teaching especially in a HE community. A sense of belonging is important to me, and freelance does not provide such a sense.
When you have a chance, let me know whatās happening with your LO/LE and how youāre coping with your dull and grey reality.
Agree 100% Pheonix.
I would not liken this to a broken vase, it is more a waking up to the reality that we were never completely secure and safe i.e. the vase was always cracked, but we were always squinting to avoid seeing that. Once we see those cracks, we cannot un-see them, but we can learn to accept them and even embrace them.
Your metaphor is more appropriate, Allie 1
Once the cracks are amended skillfully and safely, the vase will shine with its specially meaningful beautyā¦.
Found this adage, relevant to the post:
āI forgive, but I also learned a lesson. I wonāt hate you, but Iāll never get close enough for you to hurt me again. I canāt let my forgiveness become foolishness.ā
With a true Stoic mind, one could and should get close to another human heart without getting hurt ā always keep in mind and let go whatās going on in other sideās head, eternally beyond oneās control. You wonder, you suffer!
Without sincere giving first, how could one experience and obtain possible genuine reciprocation? Without those rational, relational calculation, one could sense quality and quantity of response through anotherās small (in)actions. If other side is unwilling or unable to return what you desire, then walk away with serenity or a deep sighā¦.
@snowphoenix
“With a true Stoic mind, one could and should get close to another human heart without getting hurt”
*that never happened for meš„
“Without sincere giving first, how could one experience and obtain possible genuine reciprocation? ”
*their was sincere giving, but no genuine reciprocation š°
“If other side is unwilling or unable to return what you desire, then walk away with serenity or a deep sighā¦.”
**Shot into eternity,
Methadone Kitty
Iron Serenity…
Strung out committee (lines from Allen Ginsberg)
Grego,
āWith a true Stoic mind, one could and should get close to another human heart without getting hurtā
*that never happened for meš„ā
Me, neither! I could only be a half of Stoic at most, and I do not want to be a 100% one; Iām not a robot insideā¦
āWithout sincere giving first, how could one experience and obtain possible genuine reciprocation? ā
*their was sincere giving, but no genuine reciprocation š°ā
I enjoy giving first, itās a pleasure to actively give than passively receiving. I had a couple of genuine reciprocations, the trouble was that my mind got bored once the desire was fulfilled. I know Nietzscheās words that āIt is the desire, not that desired, that we are in love withā apply to me. Why?
Grego,
āWith a true Stoic mind, one could and should get close to another human heart without getting hurtā
*that never happened for meš„ā
Me, neither! I could only be a half of Stoic at most, and I do not want to be a 100% one; Iām not a robot insideā¦
āWithout sincere giving first, how could one experience and obtain possible genuine reciprocation? ā
*their was sincere giving, but no genuine reciprocation š°ā
I enjoy giving first, itās a pleasure to actively give than passively receiving. I had a couple of genuine reciprocations, the trouble was that my mind got bored once the desire was fulfilled. I know Nietzscheās āIt is the desire, not that desired, that we are in love withā applied to my idiot mind, why, why?
**Shot into eternity,
Methadone Kitty
Iron Serenityā¦
Strung out committeeā
Mere writing down oneās desperation or despair would lesson their intensityā¦.
So just shot into eternityā¦
When I dropped the dime on LO #2, I didn’t tell her that I didn’t love her anymore, I told her that I didn’t trust her anymore and would never let her get close to me again.
I followed that up with I was looking for something and when I found it, I was gone and she shouldn’t make any long-term plans for hanging out together.
I ended with I was convinced that I’d never get what I wanted from her and the time I spent with her could be better spent replacing her. I told her the picture was bleak.
When I looked at her, her mouth was hanging wide open and she had a totally dumbfounded look on her face.
A therapist I told the story to said I really went after her. I told the therapist that I took exception to that. First, I didn’t start that conversation, she did, second, at that point I felt no obligation to spare her feelings, and last, I wanted her to know exactly how things stood.
I told the therapist that LO #2 had dismissed things I told her before and if I gave her any opening, she’d drive a truck through it.
The interesting thing was, that conversation happened after that I was Plan B. She said, “You seem different.”
The conversation wasn’t planned. When she opened the door, I gave it to her with both barrels. It all just came out.
āI ended with I was convinced that Iād never get what I wanted from her and the time spent with her could be better spent replacing her.ā
Exactly! Mine situation was similar, I was convinced that LO could never give me what I wanted, he was too shallow , and as much as I loved him, and his declaration of of love for me at the end, I told him āit was too late.ā Thereās a time for everything, if you missed your timing , then you just missed it!
I didnāt feel like wasting my time with LO anymore. It was finished and we both knew it. Time to start something new elsewhere, more rewarding. Things start when they have to start, and end when they have to end. There are certain relationships that are not meant to beā¦
It’s the start of the epiphany that not everyone who comes into your life is meant to stay there and that there’s nobody that you can’t live without.
So easy to say and, yet, so hard to accept.
I think I was always aware of them but it took two decades and two therapists to understand and believe them.
But, once I did things shifted from wondering why things didn’t work and wondering if I should have held out longer to wondering with all the evidence I had in front what took me so long to kick LO #2 to the curb.
The EAP counselor said for a smart guy, I could make some really bad assumptions and I was a slow learner.
Soundtrack for above comment:
“Take Me For A Little While” – Dave Edmunds (2002)
https://youtu.be/6beoM5LYvIM?feature=shared
Hi Limerent Lady, I’m not sure how to directly respond to your post. But when you said you worry you repelled your LO when he became aware, I relate. I’m happy to say that a couple months removed, my terror that I’ve repelled my LO is much more dulled, as are my feelings for him (maybe. We’ll see what happens when I see him again). I now know that ANY of the feelings he had toward me, positive or negative, were not nearly as strong as I hoped/feared. It was all in my head.
I am now 2 months NC! I have gone from stalking his socials and revisiting what’s app chats daily to breaking down in that arena about 1-2 times a week.
This whole thing seemed to blow up at once for me. about 2 months of euphoria, guilt free daydreaming and chats I could revisit for days in my mind. Then extreme distress, as I have an SO and realized there was no happy end to this story! Once my eyes were opened and I read more on this website, I realized I likely had acted outside of my normal character, and he may even be aware of my interest. Yikes. I was terribly embarrassed and so full of shame.
For about 3 weeks I felt I had no choice-either give into fantasy which was my only mood regulator (but also not an option because I know he’s not interested), or be HORRIBLY depressed, dark, and full of shame.
Happy to say that is all lifting. I still have to be impeccable about not seeking him out or allowing daydreams, and when I break down (which I do), I pay for it with about a day of dark pessimism.
It’s a nightmare rollercoaster but Dr. L’s methods really do work, I’m finally starting to see. This morning I was awake for at least 2 full minutes before LO crossed my mind. That’s progress, so hang in there.
Communication with SO, before and after my affair, was never a problem. I have the best relationship with him out of anyone on the planet except my brilliant but bipolar 1 best friend who is 25 years my senior. No amount of therapy would have prevented or changed what happened. In fact, I was in therapy when I met and eventually went to bed with my PA and both my best friend and my therapist now refer to it as my “learning experience”. Indeed, the affair was quite instructive in many ways… I learned about shame and humility, greediness and betrayal.. but I also some new intercommunication skills, including in the bedroom such that even my SO has admitted somethings there are improved. My SO isn’t so possessive. Actually neither of us are… I think this allowed us to resume our marriage without much consequence. I think it’s a lot harder for my husband’s family and friends who don’t understand us or share our perspective. Ever since the affair when they call him they ask about the kids and the job. Nobody asks about me. My SO hasn’t noticed this, but I have, and I accept it.
I’ve always understood things at a higher level than most around me anyway. My husband too. People around us live superficially and materialistically but I’m always on quest for more information about existence itself.
The book I’ve returned to these last weeks is called The Holy Longing by Ronald Rolheiser. It’s basically about limerence and it’s part of our essential nature of being human. He talks a lot about handling the erotic and creative energies that flow through us and says this:
“Spirituality is about properly handling the fires, those powerful energies, that flow through us. We struggle because we are naive and underestimate both the origins and the power of this fire. We think that energy is ours, and it is not. We think we can, all on our own, control it, and we cannot. There is a madness in us that comes from the god and unless we respect and relate it precisely to its divine source we will forever be either too restless or too depressed to ever fully enjoy life or we will be some miniversion of David Koresh, convinced that we are God.”
Simply stated: My affair wasn’t a problem with communication, but rather a problem of discipline. For a few weeks last summer I didn’t have any. That was the beginning and end of the story for both myself and my SO.
Somewhere, I read that heresy isn’t an error of the mind, it’s an error the will.
Infidelity is always a choice.
Personally, I’ve heard a lot of plausible explanations for infidelity but I’ve never heard a valid excuse for it. But, that’s me.
Infidelity means different things to different people and that’s their perogative. I personally have a low tolerance for betrayal. Somebody betrays me once, I won’t give them a second chance because I flat out won’t trust them after that.
How that would play out may have changed over time.
Somewhere on the old blogs is a discussion of wedding vows. What did you say you committed yourself to? In my marriage, my wife and I drew the lines in different places. I crossed hers. I was inside mine.
If you come out of the experience better than you entered into it, good for you. A lot of people don’t.
LE,
“In my marriage, my wife and I drew the lines in different places. I crossed hers. I was inside mine”
So … correct my if I’m wrong, but you had something of an EA and disclosed. If your wife had done that with someone, that wouldn’t have crossed your lines? You’d have been ok with that? (There’s no sarcasm meant in the question. I know it’s hard to tell tone in a blog post.)
Marcia,
The incident I was referring to happened very early in our marriage.
She caught me with a Playboy and in her mind, it was no different than if the woman had actually been there. In my mind, I wasn’t doing anything wrong.
She carried over a lot of body issues and self-worth issues from childhood.
It almost destroyed us. A marriage counselor got us over the immediate crisis but she was unwilling to take on the root cause, i.e., her mother. It was only when my wife’s later drinking threatened our marriage that I heard the reason for things. For a nice woman, my mother-in-law could be callously insensitive, almost to the point of cruelty. After hearing how she grew up, it didn’t surprise me a bit.
Things are better now but our marriage was never what it might have been had I not stepped on that mine or she had been willing to confront things.
The EA with LO #4 happened much later. I’m not sure how would reacted. I’m sure I would have been hurt but I don’t know if I would have felt betrayed. I pretty sure that I would have seen an EA as an indicator that my wife was seeking something from someone else that I should have been providing or at least, been given the opportunity to provide.
There is a detailed post buried somewhere of how I went down the rabbit hole with LO #4. It’s pretty convoluted but one thing led to another to another until one day, LO #4 went off script and things started spiraling.
LE,
“The EA with LO #4 happened much later. Iām not sure how would reacted. Iām sure I would have been hurt but I donāt know if I would have felt betrayed.”
Oh, ok. I thought you were referring to LO#4. Personally, I would have felt very betrayed by that. (Not the Playboy. Or porn in general. Messaging live performers on their porn sites? We’re getting into a gray zone. ) I don’t know how your wife found out about LO#4. That it happened: first betrayal. If I had to stumble on it and wasn’t told: second betrayal. That you discussed your feelings with another woman … a third betrayal.
” I pretty sure that I would have seen an EA as an indicator that my wife was seeking something from someone else that I should have been providing or at least, been given the opportunity to provide.”
Well, yes. That would have been a question I would have asked. In between the other questions. š
Three weeks before I got married I went home to buy the bridesmaidsā dresses. 7 of them. It had taken months to put in the order because I was undecided on the wedding colors. I remember getting a call at Davidās Bridal from my classmate.. she had accepted a second date with my new roommate of four months. I congratulated her and immediately called my roommate to congratulate him too and to give him dinner recommendationsā¦ My fiancĆ© also called and asked if I could get the wedding deposit ($10k) from my parents. I told him I would but didnātā¦ A week before my wedding I returned home again for the holidays. I had started making the handmade wedding invitations but had to stop because my future mother in law was displeased with the wedding colors (ātoo sadā she said). She wanted me to change the dress order too.. and despite shelling out $30k for my sisterās wedding I was arguing with my mom for the $10k because letās just be realā¦she didnāt approve of wedding venue, or my boyfriend or his family and she walked out of the room.. and then my fiancĆ© called to say his high school buddy just got out of the service and heād be living with us directly after the wedding (āa short time I promiseā¦ā). And then finally my friend called to say she wasnāt going to date my wonderful new roommate after all: sheās going back to Spain after graduation. Two days before I got married my roommate and I went out for coffee he told me his brother was moving to our state and he was moving out. (nothing was going well!) He asked me how the wedding plans were going and I impulsively blurted: āTerrible and I might be in love with youā. Moments passed. He said simply āIām flattered. Feelings are mutual but you need to clear things upā and he got up and leftā¦ one day before I got married I drove to my fiancĆ©ās home but nothing was discussed or resolved. He said āyouāre having second thoughts arenāt you?ā I said yes and without any inquiry demanded the ring back. I obliged, stood up, got back in my car and drove back home. I found my roommate in the living room when I got home. I told him what happenedā¦ we kissed, we went back to his roomā¦ and when it was over I cried. He suggested we go to Vegas and I said yes and somehow were on the last flight of the day. The following morning we became husband and wife. The actual āceremonyā was maybe 15 minutes long and it was interrupted by the officiantās phone ringing. His ring tone was Auld Lang Syne and he actually answered it! I thought it was absolutely hilarious! We all didā¦ I was holding plastic flowers that I couldnāt keep but they did give us a Polaroid. Without an extra fee. So what did I we commit ourselves to that morning? Iām not exactly sureā¦ 22 years later Iām still debating what happened. Two weeks ago I impulsively walked off the best job I ever had. It felt like someone close to me suddenly and violently died. I realized in the following days that I have a long history of just walking out in difficult situations and I thought about my fiancĆ©, a young, talented, vivacious, sexy man who spent fours years courting me and how I walked out on him one day because I didnāt know the basics of conflict resolutionā¦ imagine that! Some things I canāt change but with my epiphany I went to work last week I explained my little problem and I asked them to give me a little grace and help me grow up. And they did.
I donāt know what this all says about my marriage. My husband thinks it was all meant to be but most days I think it was an act of defiance, rebellion. I think it was immaturity and cowardice. Mostly I think weāve been lucky to make it this long and when I really stop to think about Iām astounded. And then I think maybe it really was meant to be in all its imperfections.
Okay, this story made my jaw drop….It sounds like a romcom. I suppose if you were totally in love with the fiance, you never would’ve broken things off and married somebody else two days before the wedding!
Marcia,
I never discussed my marriage with LO #4 and until her relationship collapsed, she never discussed it with me.
LO #4 is a PsyD. Over time, we discussed a lot of things. Things weren’t going well at home and I was rethinking a lot of my decisions in life. LO #4 knew more about LO #2 than my wife does. When my son was going through anxiety and depression, LO #4 was my go to second opinion.
I could tell by reading between the lines that her relationship was having problems. I gave her support and encouragement 2500 miles away that she should have been getting from her BF. When her relationship collapsed, part of me said, “You called that one.”
When she reached out to me, she wasn’t the first woman who’d done that, she was the third. I read her email and thought, “Oh, f–k! I don’t need this.”
But, my inner 5yr old blew past the rational adult and said, “Get outta my way! I got this!” I was in the EAP counselor’s as soon as I could get an appointment. I knew that I needed someone who knew what they were doing to help me from doing something really stupid.
The solution was simple and obvious: get away from LO #4 and stay away from her. The EAP counselor said, “Stay involved with this woman and this will not end well for you.”
It proved harder than I expected but we got there.
I waited 3 years from the time that LO #4 and I said goodbye to disclose the LE/EA to my wife. At the time, I thought that my wife was in a fragile place in her recovery and telling her then was risky.
3 years later, we were in a better place and I wasn’t leaking LO #4 for 3 years. I felt safe in clearing the minefield so I disclosed. That was over 5 years ago.
It’s been 8 years since LO #4 and I said goodbye and over 2 years since I did a social media drive by.
The most uncomfortable part of that discussion, which we’ve gone over before, was when the first question my wife asked was, “Did you love her?”
At this point, all I can say is that it seemed really important at the time.
LE,
“LO #4 knew more about LO #2 than my wife does. ”
Ouch.
“At the time, I thought that my wife was in a fragile place in her recovery and telling her then was risky.”
When you disclosed, did you tell her why you waited to tell her? I can’t speak for your wife, but I might have been upset that you made that decision for me.
“The EAP counselor said, āStay involved with this woman and this will not end well for you.ā”
I don’t know if I agree with that. If you read most of the posts on this site, most LEs do not result in a full-blown EAs (the limerent usually wants more but the LO isn’t reciprocating fully), let alone PAs, let alone anyone leaving their SO. Not that limerence doesn’t cause harm.