Happy New Year, folks.
I always look on the start of a new year as a time for renewal, and that seems especially true this year, given the horror show that was 2020. We’re not out of trouble yet, of course, but there are some causes for optimism – in the UK we have vaccines being deployed and a Brexit deal at last, so there finally seems some hope for a more stable twelve months ahead.
New year is the time for resolutions too – to shake off the old habits that keep us stuck, and take action towards a more purposeful future. On that theme, a good conversation broke out in the comments recently about “limerence limbo”. Marcia asked:
Are there are any posts about the limbo that limerence seems to put people in? The years of decision paralysis people wade through (I’ve certainly been there), the years of ruminating over the LO without making a definitive decision? Is it part of the brain chemicals? Do they feel so good that that they trap people? I waited around far longer than I care to admit for something to happen with my LO, even though, deep down, I knew after about the first six months that nothing ever would?
It’s easy enough to understand how we get drawn into limerence – it feels amazing, and we want more of that feeling – but what factors determine whether we respond effectively, or get stuck in limbo? Why is it that, despite knowing deep down that nothing is going to happen with LO, we don’t walk away? Is there a neurochemical basis to sticking with a lost cause? Why do we resist taking decisive action to resolve the situation one way or another? Why do we willingly keep ourselves in limbo?
Let’s stick to our tried and tested formula: analyse the issue then think about solutions.
Sometimes it’s imposed on us
It’s absolutely within our powers to avoid limerence limbo, and it’s important to take responsibility for our own choices and behaviour. But, it is also true that we can get drawn into it by the conduct of our LO.
If a limerent is single, and keen to start a relationship with LO, then it’s natural to be uncertain, but optimistic and hopeful and willing to be patient. However, if the limerent object is not free, or not consistent in their reciprocation, or gives mixed messages about their feelings, then the limerent can get trapped in a holding pattern waiting to see what will happen.
The worst scenario is a manipulative LO. Sometimes, the LO has no intention of committing, but every intention of keeping their narcissistic supply coming. This is the worst kind of limbo, because any attempt to escape countered by an LO who resists and pulls you back in, giving just enough attention and reciprocation to make you doubt your resolve to move on, because clearly there is something between you, but… what exactly?
Basically, sometimes an LO can play us. In terms of the neurochemistry, they are giving an intermittent reward that is difficult to adapt to, and resistant to extinction of the reward memory. A classic example is this case study of an LO who was still trying to keep a limerent hooked during their wedding to someone else.
Sometimes it’s stalemate
A variation on the previous theme is mutual limerence between two people who are both conflicted. Here, the limbo-inducing dynamic is not caused by manipulative behaviour so much as indecisive behaviour. This is the hot/cold push/pull dance of two people failing to decisively manage their feelings, and ineffectively attempting to sever a connection that they are addicted to.
Even worse, when one of them finds some resolve and withdraws, the other panics and attempts to pull them back in. If the first person has a rescue-fantasy problem, this is pretty much guaranteed to stress test their resilience to breaking point, at which point they start telegraphing interest again, and the panicked second limerent gets temporary relief, followed by resentment about how they have been played for a fool and then they begin to withdraw.
If this was a literal dance, the baffled spectators would stare in horrified fascination at the spectacle.
This is a different form of limerence limbo, where breaking the connection becomes a mess of false starts and relapses, rather than the passive pain of one-sided limerence.
The power of hope
Hope is very powerful. Even in despair, the light of hope can sustain us. For limerents who recognise that their feelings are not reciprocated, or at least not reciprocated with the same degree of ardour, it can be very difficult to acknowledge defeat. The death of hope is crushing.
This is another reason why unrequited limerence is hard to escape, because to declare yourself and finally settle the feelings between you, means consciously ending the hope of uncertainty. While there is still unspoken promise, there is still a chance to turn things around. Some future maneouvre may provide a win, may persuade a lukewarm LO of your merits, may seduce.
It’s easy to convince yourself that you are just biding your time, rather than evading a decisive choice, and so keep the small flame of hope flickering for longer. Even if you don’t really believe it deep down, delay can seem like prudence. No need to rock any boats, or upset any applecarts. Patience is a virtue.
The comfort of the familiar
That brings us to probably the major factor in staying in limbo: you know what it’s like and it’s not all that bad. In the short term.
Like any habit, slipping into a state of romantic daydreams and rewarding fantasy is comfortable and familiar. Many limerents – especially, perhaps introvert limerents – use reverie for mood regulation. Fantasising about LO provides reward. It’s a lacklustre substitute for the real thing of actual reciprocation from LO, but it’s far more predictable, controllable and reliable than LO. When we feel stressed or sad or hopeless, our subconscious clicks into mood repair mode, and fires up the best mechanism for feeling good that it’s learned: a nice fantasy about reciprocation.
The neurochemistry here is different – this is likely to be about serotonin and dopamine as regulators of baseline mood. It’s rare that long-term limbo is exciting or exhilarating, it’s more like a place of security and mood stabilisation.
This is the reason why many of us spend long stretches of our adult lives in limerence limbo. It can last beyond individual LOs, it can last through marriages, it can last till we reach the autumn of our years. A stable feature of our internal world is the ability and desire to use romantic fantasy as a safe and reliable way to comfort ourselves. Like any fantasy, the desired outcome exists in some nebulous future “someday” place and time where fate brings us our dream, fulfils our hopes, but on our own terms and without us having to risk the pain of rejection or uncertainty.
Better the faint warmth of imagined love than the volatility and uncertainty of a real-life relationship.
Freeing ourselves from limbo
I’m not here to judge anyone who makes that choice. I understand it, because I lived it for significant stretches of my life. Looking back, I even suspect that some of the women I pined for would have reciprocated if only I could have overcome my fear and propositioned them. But, I’ll never know, because I chose limbo.
So, what changed? How do any of us with the urge to retreat to the safety of our inner worlds push through the fear and act?
Well, one useful countermeasure is to fight fear with fear. Yes, it’s frightening to disclose to an LO who might say no. It’s also frightening to walk away from an LO who you really want to be with, but can’t be now, in case their circumstances change in the future. It’s also frightening to think you might move too soon, or too late, or bungle your declaration in some way that means you wreck your one chance to make a good first impression. So, you need to balance that fear with a cold, hard look at the alternative.
Most of us get out of limbo by realising what we have lost, what sacrifices we have made in substituting a fruitless dream for real life. Most limbo ends with the shocking realisation of the time that’s been lost. The countless hours of thought and energy devoted to a one-sided obsession. The opportunity of other good people overlooked, of dreams delayed and productive days squandered.
You should fear wasting years on someone who doesn’t want to give themselves to you. Fight the acute fear of revealing your feelings with the long, deep regret of wasting life and the opportunity for authentic love.
Another useful strategy is more positive: make yourself the centre of your life. Not in a selfish, destructive, “I’ll do what I want!” way, but in a purposeful, hopeful and brave way. If you pursue the things you care about, and work to improve yourself, have new experiences, grow stronger, physically, mentally and spiritually (in whatever way that means to you), then you will find the faint warmth of fantasy grows ever feebler. If you live a purposeful life, the comfort of the imaginary people who live in your head no longer gives the relief it used to.
By reorienting your life towards purposeful living, other people cease to be the centre of your world and the focus of your hopes. Instead, they become welcome companions who enrich your life, rather than some phantom ideal that you pin your hopes and dreams on. And that robs the narcissists, manipulators and flakes of a lot of their power over you.
Limbo is safe, but it’s the stultifying safety of a gilded cage.
Spread your wings.
The “will these questions ever end?” bit under the photo made me laugh out loud!
And this line: “If this was a literal dance, the baffled spectators would stare in horrified fascination at the spectacle.” HILARIOUS! Like a tango gone wrong.
Funny you should mention Limerence Limbo. Yesterday I was searching for something in old emails and lo and behold accidentally found a google voice chat dialogue from 6 years ago of myself and XLO.
Wow…such witty repartee, playful chatter and clever dialogue and observations.
I felt like I was reading a script from a rom-com!
That was my life, all the time. So intellectually stimulating and fun. Except when it was awful and I was panic stricken when there were tell tale signs of an expiration date.
But reading that dialogue yesterday, no wonder I didn’t want to let that go! Making the mundane pure entertainment.
Of course the dark side was that he was likely having these dalliances of wit and whimsy with many others. I was just one of many chosen to enjoy the sport with him, and to be compartmentalized into the ‘dear friend’ category.
Fun for him….but only temporary fun for me while I hung out in Limerence Limbo.
Then the fun all came crashing down with it’s ensuing injury and despair.
I should have left the game far earlier than I did.
But how …. when you keep thinking there is ‘hope’? I have never been a quitter. There was all too many reasons from his tortured past as to why I should be patient with him. And truthfully, I rather enjoyed having this arrangement, no risk, lots of fun, and us showing each other the sparkling side of each other without the icky or grumpy or annoying side. We were just delightful all the time. I loved us! If only I could have kept my ridiculously romantic heart out of it all! But I am not, after all, an android.
But what a dangerous and unhealthy game we were playing, disguised as benign sport.
I should have made him lay his cards on the table, with a spotlight on them, or refused to play the game with him.
Or maybe he had the cards on the table but I refused to look at them because he had them partially obscured and was distracting me from taking a good hard look.
Looking at them, and really seeing them clearly, would have ended the game.
Which seemed unbearable at the time.
“When you know better, you do better.”- Maya Angelou
Yes, understand the seemingly benign sport part of it, the knowingly engaging in the dance that would horrify (and did) spectators! When instigating NC, I was told I was loved best in the group. Yeah. My romantic heart is having a terrible time letting go of the excitement of it even though the reality was a bit pathetic. In years past, My SO would come home to me watching my mood regulator, Pride & Prejudice, Colin Firth extra long version, laugh, and ask what he did wrong. I do love my SO! I, as you say, need to look at life clearly, live purposefully, and quit watching my romance movies so much! I’m quite the optimist when it comes to love!
Hope, don’t you think Mr. Darcy might have been quite horrible to live with in real life? What with his moodiness, and so forth? When they settled into domesticity it might not have been nearly as romantic. 😉
Who care about the moodiness? She’d have been with Colin Firth and his wet shirt! 🙂 Surely that could be entertaining for at least a year.
Marcia! 😹😹😹
At least!
When girls talk Pride and Prejudice, they all seem to remember Mr Darcy and his wet shirt. I must have napped through that scene in the series – I honestly can’t remember it!
Sammy,
How could you NOT remember the wet shirt scene? Colin Firth is so hot, he practically burns through the film on which he is printed! 🙂
Not remember the wet shirt?!?! I well remember very first time I saw that scene. It was perfect! That and the sweet looks across the piano. Yes, I could be entertained for at least a year or two. My SO is a bit serious, so I get that about Mr. Darcy 😁
@Marcia and Hope. I might be gay, but I’m still a man and still miss all the subtle cues women seem to automatically pick up on in interpersonal situations. (Though I try to read a lot to make up the difference).
Mr Darcy? You mean Mr Darcy was the love interest? You’re kidding me, right? I thought he was the gardener who wanted to chop up the old piano for firewood. He kept interrupting those poor young ladies during their interminable weekly music lessons! (Wink).
Sammy,
“I might be gay, but I’m still a man and still miss all the subtle cues women seem to automatically pick up on in interpersonal situations.”
That’s funny. My best friend in my 20s was a gay man and he taught me how to read cues. Taught me how to read subtext, when someone was flirting with me, coming on to me, etc. I had NO clue. I could give him about a three- or four-sentence description about some guy I liked and he could almost always tell me exactly what was going to happen with him.
The above comment is from Marcia. I can’t spell. I am trying to watch a movie and type. 🙂
“The above comment is from Marcia. I can’t spell. I am trying to watch a movie and type. 🙂”
It’s all good, Marcia. Actually, I wonder if us limerent folks are worse-on-average at reading other people, irrespective of our sex, orientation, etc, etc? We seem to get it so very wrong much of the time…
Honestly, that straight dude I fell for was/is a mystery. Still haven’t worked out what makes him tick (and am no longer trying, thank goodness). I’d like to believe he was a horrible, manipulative person, etc. But I think he was, like us, just a nice well-meaning sort who didn’t have a clue about signals and/or appropriate boundaries. Ah well. C’est la vie.
Sammy,
“It’s all good, Marcia. Actually, I wonder if us limerent folks are worse-on-average at reading other people, irrespective of our sex, orientation, etc, etc? We seem to get it so very wrong much of the time…”
Well, actually, I have become very good at reading whether someone is interested now. I can also tell when men find other women attractive. (Your side is not all that subtle.) 🙂 What I am not good at is moving on from someone who is giving off signals of interest and not acting on them. I always come up with a million excuses because I like the person and I really want something to happen. But the bottom line is that they reasons why don’t matter. All that matters is the end result — this guy isn’t moving on his interest.
@Marcia. “What I am not good at is moving on from someone who is giving off signals of interest and not acting on them.”
Ah. I see what you mean. That’s a tough one.
Sammy,
“Ah. I see what you mean. That’s a tough one.”
But it really isn’t if you think about it logically (hard to do when you are limerent). I had a friend who reconnected with a guy she knew in high school. They lived a considerable distance from each other, but despite his protestations that he wanted to meet up in person after months of calling and texting, she had yet to see him face-to-face. (This wasn’t a money or time off work issue.) I don’t know if he was with somebody else or wasn’t’ serious about things moving forward, but something was off. All you really have to do is sit back and watch what somebody does. The answers are all right in front of you.
@Marcia. I’m glad we’re having this chat today. In the past, I’ve read your posts, and the posts of a few other women on the blog, whose usernames escape me at present, and I’ve read the words, but the message hasn’t quite sunk in. Today, by talking to you, the message has sunk in a little bit deeper I feel.
I may be on the spectrum (autism), which just means I have an “extreme male brain”. I have difficulties interpreting non-verbal body language accurately. So, in other words, any limerent experience that goes bad for me, I can basically blame on myself. I’m socially incompetent, etc, etc. Because I can plausibly blame myself for any misunderstandings, I feel fairly neutral toward rogue LOs. (Autism is both a blessing and a curse clearly).
However, in the case of people such as yourself, people who do have a good grasp of body language, emotional nuance, etc, there does seem to be some shared blame for limerent episodes gone wrong. Finally, I understand why some people struggling with limerence may feel intense anger toward their LO, because the manipulation that has taken place is arguably real, and not just a case of one person (i.e. Sammy) projecting fantasies onto the other party. etc.
It’s true you can judge a man better by his actions than his words – unless he’s giving you mixed signals with his actions too, that is. Your potentially “passive approach” to limerence is certainly interesting – do nothing, only wait and see what happens. In time, the true character of your man will come to light. Sounds like an ancient Chinese proverb almost.
I think I understand now what some women mean when they say they want to “go there” (declare feelings to LO or make a move). They’ve apparently gotten a green or orange light from him. Awkward! Really, he’s the one who’s meant to seek a green light from the woman, according to traditional gender roles.
It’s probably easier to “reason oneself out of limerence” if it’s all been in one’s head. If LO has shown genuine interest though at some point, and you’re socially astute enough to pick up on that, then it can be harder to go the logic route – because, look, you’ve got irrefutable evidence that so-and-so cares, etc. Or at least pretended to care for one hot little minute before it all turned to goop.
I realise female limerents don’t entirely dream up all their positive interactions with male LOs. Some of the sexual signals, for example, are real. And it makes the situation that much harder to moralise about with any kind of certainty. Life is so, so complicated.
This is why I love being an Aspie – most of the time I’m oblivious to all the drama going on around me. But you’ve helped me see limerence from another angle. It’s not all frivolous drama – people’s emotions are deeply invested in these delicate negotiations, or exquisitely awkward dances that Dr. L talks about above.
Thank you for helping me see the situation more clearly from a female point of view. 🙂
Sammy,
“Your potentially “passive approach” to limerence is certainly interesting – do nothing, only wait and see what happens. ”
I wasn’t passive at all. I maneuvered to get him alone and made the first physical move. I’ll make it clear I’m interested. I’m not going to do it over and over again. I mean, how tacky is that? 🙂 It was up to him to pick up the ball and throw it back to me. The fact that he didn’t told me everything I needed to know.
“I think I understand now what some women mean when they say they want to “go there” (declare feelings to LO or make a move). ”
What else do you propose? Staying in limbo forever? I don’t know about you, but I find ongoing hesitation very unsexy.
“you’ve got irrefutable evidence that so-and-so cares, etc. Or at least pretended to care for one hot little minute before it all turned to goop.”
What do you mean by evidence? Flirting and sexual tension are not evidence, IMO. Going out on dates is proof. Now, if you went on several dates with the person and he ghosted you or if he kept reappearing and disappearing, that would be confusing.
Interesting conversation and very relevant to me. I know from his subconscious signals that my LO feels similarly to me. As you say Sammy, that makes it so very hard to choose to let go! I really like shy introverts, so hesitancy (=barriers & uncertainty) only inflames my limerence. But you make such a good point Marcia, to escape the the limbo we must either declare our self and give up if that changes nothing, or just give up. The problem is that disclosing has other possible side effects e.g. job, work relationship, harm to LOs state of mind, etc.
I must consider that the balance of evidence with my LO says that he feels similarly but will never act. I must say this to myself over and over until my idiot brain really gets it!
Allie,
I think you have to ask yourself what you getting out of staying in limbo. Or what you are getting out of being in limerence, for that matter. My situation was different from yours in that I wasn’t married, but what can I conclude about myself that I essentially put my life on hold for a person who so clearly didn’t want anything real from me? I had two short-term flings with other men during my LE and went on a handful of dates, but my heart wasn’t in it. And I knew the short-term flings would be short-term when they started. So, deep down, I must have not wanted anything real from anyone. When I read some of the posts on here, I think that people don’t want to know the truth and, deep down, don’t really want things to progress with the LO. They like the flirtation, excitement and distance.
Limbo = hope + pleasurable ruminations + enjoying contact with LO + not suffering the pain of letting go (or worse, leaving my project/role to go NC). The price of that is the never ending effort of trying (and often failing) to manage the intrusive thoughts and my diminished enthusiasm for usual pastimes.
Yes I can see that limbo is far more harmful if you are single and were looking for something real in the first place.
“people deep down, don’t really want things to progress with the LO. They like the flirtation, excitement and distance.”
Yes I know what you mean. Not me though, not that there is any flirtation anyway. I want things to progress. I now have a little room to manoeuvre in my marriage without having to deceive SO. But am guessing LO doesn’t, and therefore would never take the risk. I keep thinking I should see what happens post-covid when he returns to the office. But I really can’t see anything changing even then.
Allie,
“Yes I can see that limbo is far more harmful if you are single and were looking for something real in the first place.”
I think limerence is harmful whether you are married or not. What if your LO is looking for something real from you? (This is a generic “you.”) And for you, it’s just an amusement. I guess if you are on the same page … but that would take disclosure. 🙂
” Not me though, not that there is any flirtation anyway.”
I’m confused. There’s been no flirtation ?
” I want things to progress.”
Prove it. 🙂 Idk. I think the hell of this covid year has changed me. Friends I thought would be supportive have been glaringly MIA, and the people who have shown up … well, it’s a been a series of texts about where to buy toilet paper. I’ve discovered that I need people who can show up AND be emotionally present, which is the opposite of limerence. I say this from the vantage point of having complete NC with my LO for a year. I just think that, at the end of the day, my LO was like the Wizard of Oz …. pull back the curtain and there’s nothing there. (Or the Wizard is actually a short, ineffectual little man who’s all hot air. 🙂 )
No flirting, just a mutually supportive professional relationship with masked underlying feelings where the mask very occasionally slips to reveal a glimpse of what is going on underneath. I am incapable of flirting with an LO, neither of us are the flirty type and we are in a professional work environment so would be viewed inappropriate.
“I need people who can show up AND be emotionally present”… not so much to asks really is it. But surprisingly hard to find these days.
Allie,
“I am incapable of flirting with an LO, neither of us are the flirty type and we are in a professional work environment so would be viewed inappropriate.”
Hmm … I would think that would make the flirting all the more fun. 🙂 That was one of things my LO brought to the table … he said the most deliciously inappropriate things to me. His impishness made the boring, staid work environment tolerable.
Your LO sounds like a moderately narcissistic tease. Hate that.
(But I can see how that would be fun for a while… ;-))
Allie,
“Your LO sounds like a moderately narcissistic tease.”
He was.
But that is my trigger. Someone talking a scandalously or anarchistically. I know plenty of people who follow all the rules. I don’t need to know more. 🙂
“Interesting conversation and very relevant to me. I know from his subconscious signals that my LO feels similarly to me. As you say Sammy, that makes it so very hard to choose to let go! I really like shy introverts, so hesitancy (=barriers & uncertainty) only inflames my limerence.”
@Allie. Yes, and I guess that’s what makes Lizzie and Darcy’s fictional romance so enthralling. Nothing much happens for most of the story, but complicated emotional stuff is bubbling away beneath the surface and we catch little glimpses of it here and there.
It limerence is happening between two shy, guarded introverts, then who knows what either of them is really feeling? The limerent dance could go on indefinitely. And Darcy-like hesitancy can be extremely cute!
On the other hand, if one or both disclosed, and the feeling proved mutual, the whole thing could be over in a heartbeat.
“He said the most deliciously inappropriate things to me.”
@Marcia. I know I shouldn’t feel intrigued. I know intrigue is an inappropriate response to what you’ve just revealed. But I am now deeply intrigued by your LO.
In terms of Pride and Prejudice, would you class him as more of a Wickham than a Darcy? 😛
Hi Sammy,
“In terms of Pride and Prejudice, would you class him as more of a Wickham than a Darcy?”
Wichkam. Insincere flirting. One time he made reference to a room in our workplace and that we’d lock all the doors and disappear. I almost fell through the floor. Another time I bought a lamp for my office that gave off a very low amount of light. It had leopard print shade. 🙂 He walked in and turned off the overhead light so that only the lamp was on. The dude was professional. And someone being inappropriate or anti-establishment or even slightly impish is my trigger.
“One time he made reference to a room in our workplace and that we’d lock all the doors and disappear. I almost fell through the floor. Another time I bought a lamp for my office that gave off a very low amount of light. It had leopard print shade. 🙂 He walked in and turned off the overhead light so that only the lamp was on.”
Yes, I can imagine Wickham doing/saying both of those cheeky things around a thrilled and flustered (and slightly suspicious) Lizzie, all the while wearing a smirk on his face! 😛
Sammy,
One time I saw him several feet head of me, walking toward me in the hall at work, and as we passed each other, without any sort of prompting, we both reached out and clasped hands. It was a beautiful moment. But like everything with him, it was just a moment that had no connection to anything else and ultimately meant nothing.
“One time I saw him several feet head of me, walking toward me in the hall at work, and as we passed each other, without any sort of prompting, we both reached out and clasped hands. It was a beautiful moment. But like everything with him, it was just a moment that had no connection to anything else and ultimately meant nothing.”
@Marcia. Undoubtedly, it meant nothing. However, for the moment to even occur at all suggests you two must have been “in sync” in some way in terms of body language/emotion, etc. I mean, you didn’t bump into each other or indifferently stroll past each other.
I don’t know what the word is, but your body language was in sync with his body language. Is that sexual attraction or mere friendship and liking or just two people being a bit quirky? I dunno. I can understand if you thought there was some mental connection between you after that – this sort of mirroring doesn’t happen in every social interaction. I guess it’s a kind of “chemistry”?
Reflexive empathy. Maybe that’s what it’s called. When one person matches another person’s body language to create/cement a bond.
Sammy,
“…this sort of mirroring doesn’t happen in every social interaction. I guess it’s a kind of “chemistry”?”
I felt tremendous sexual chemistry for him, and I value that feeling highly as I feel it rarely. But what I’ve learned is that just because you feel that doesn’t mean the other person (if they also feel something) values it or will act on it. And it doesn’t predict in any way how the relationship is going to be.
That’s got to be one of the key lessons from limerence. Fireworks won’t heat your home.
But they are very pretty.
Dr. L,
“That’s got to be one of the key lessons from limerence. Fireworks won’t heat your home.”
Your comment about fireworks reminds me of an article I read that discusses what women want: “On the one hand is the desire for stability, intimacy, and security—picture the flame on the burner of a gas stove: controlled, utilitarian, domesticated, and good for making dinner. On the other hand is the need to feel totally, uncontrollably desired, the object of raw, primal lust—a house on fire.”
The description of a stable relationship versus limerence.
True, but it’s not about the settling part, it’s about the getting there that is so nice. That point when all misunderstandings are sorted out and love flows freely and effortlessly. Sigh… Then comes real life… He is so serious isn’t he?
No, Jaideux, you don’t understand. The astonishing power of Lizzie’s transformative love remade him into a perfect husband.
We all know that’s how it works 🙂
Oh yes of course Dr. L! How could I dare to spoil the mirage of the fantasy! 🤣
Ooh! Ooh!
I have an idea! DrL can publish the LwL series of “Bodice Ripper” penny dreadfuls complete with a Fabio clone on the covers! He could shoot for a Netflix series but “Bridgerton” may have beat him to it.
Scharnhosrt
“He could shoot for a Netflix series but “Bridgerton” may have beat him to it.”
And do you notice how the narrative is always of the handsome, romantic lead who could have anyone but is transfixed by the maybe not conventionally pretty but plucky heroine, discards all his other options, and becomes fixated on her because she’s not throwing herself at him like all the others? Because she challenges him. It does not work that way. 🙂
Full disclosure: I’ve never watched “Bridgerton.”
My Anglophile-wannabe wife was looking for something to watch until the new season of “The Crown” shows up on Netflix. She wasn’t too keen on its take on the period and when our daughter told her there was a lot of relatively gratuitous nudity and sex, my wife passed on it. She went for “Call the Midwife,” which I watch with her.
As for, “… and becomes fixated on her because she’s not throwing herself at him like all the others? Because she challenges him. It does not work that way.” Actually, it can. https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-friendzone/#comment-1484
Actually, it was LO #2. When I told the therapist that story, I said that LO #2 took me on out of pity. The therapist said that was wrong. The therapist said that whatever LO #2 felt for me, pity wasn’t in the mix. The therapist said my response pissed LO #2 off and she saw me as a challenge.
Scharnhorst,
Are you a man or a woman? I can’t tell from your name. I wrote that men don’t like challenging women. Not that women don’t like challenging men. And if you are a man, was your wife challenging? An LO can be challenging because an LO is a fantasy but that is different than an SO.
Marcia,
It looks like I misinterpreted your post. I thought of “challenging” as a verb, vice an adjective, sorry.
I’m male.
I’ve never pursued a woman just to prove I could.
LO #2 said she didn’t like me when we started dating. She said I was cocky and arrogant. I asked her why she kept dating me. She said I was “relentlessly persistent” and “at times, you can be irresistibly cute.” My wife said something similar. She said, I was older, established, self-confident, and knew what I wanted and I wanted her. I asked what brought her around. She said, “I liked it.”
LO #2 could have been my wife. I proposed to her. Later, after my wife got over her initial hesitation, our relationship fell into place like dominos. It just did. We’ve had our problems but asking my wife to marry me was the best decision I ever made.
scharnhorst,
You are telling me what the women said about you. I’m saying that most men don’t want to pursue a woman who is giving off signs that she dislikes him or that she has to be won over, like Elizabeth Bennett does with Mr. Darcy in “Pride and Prejudice. ” Yet this is a common trope in romantic novels or movies. The hot man who can have anybody he wants but he goes after the one woman who, at least initially, doesn’t want him or isn’t overly impressed with him. As a general rule, I think men pursue women who give off very clear signs of interest, and usually very clear signs in terms of how the woman sees it. She feels she is waving a banner. 🙂 )
Marcia,
“I’m saying that most men don’t want to pursue a woman who is giving off signs that she dislikes him or that she has to be won over, like Elizabeth Bennett does with Mr. Darcy in “Pride and Prejudice. ”
Point conceded.
The woman you describe is probably not most men’s preferred demographic.
Scharnhorst,
“The woman you describe is probably not most men’s preferred demographic.”
Most men’s preferred demographic is the woman who says yes. 🙂 I joke about it but that really is the case. Men have to pick a woman from among the women who say yes and woman have to pick men from among the men who ask us out and keep showing up. It sounds a bit clinical, and it is .
I’m finding “Bridgerton” a bit of a disappointment. My mood regulator can’t be too predictible or formulated. Just like in real life, ha, there needs to be an element of delightful surprise in there somewhere.
I did just finish a helpful book called, the Anatomy of an Affair. Even though this close call was no where near that, it did a good job of explaining why we are so vulnerable at different times of our lives to the possibility of others because of timing and past. I learned that I needed to book the weekend getaway with my SO myself as he is not going to spontaneously come charging into the living room on his white horse and rescue me from the TV remote and the 20th viewing of Persuasion… So I did…
Brava! May you have the ultimate romantic getaway!
Thank you! 😊
Two years of limbo and although my LO knew I was struggling to move on, he’d do and say enough to keep me hooked.
Very manipulative.
I wish I had found this site about two years ago. My instincts were urging me to break free. I took steps but not consistently.
Yes, our LOs are interesting and engaging. They can also be self-absorbed users.
I’ve tried to take positive lessons from meeting the wrong man at the wrong time.
It’s been a terrible waste of time. More and more, I’m finding it easier to view him through a negative lens.
Thank you for the fantastic post, Dr. L. I’ve also noticed that how someone behaves with you in the beginning … is how the relationship dynamic will stay. Whether it’s a romantic relationship or a friendship, people show you who they are. A new friend who demonstrates unreliable on inconsistent behavior does not suddenly become someone you can count on (or at least count on for very long). It’s the same with an LO. An inconsistent, flaky LO would act that way in a relationship.
How about this: limbo going on 4 solid years. Amazingly enough, we both remained single through out our little flings, including the ones with each other. I have been unable to move on because the mofo remained single. So even though he couldn’t commit to me all this time (his words, yet no real explanation given), I have been obsessing over the fact that he is STILL single. I know exactly why I have been single and that’s because he’s the man of my dreams (I’m way pass the fantasy of it all, I truly love the man despite all his imperfections shortcomings and negative traits) and this kills me. If I’m not the one who he can commit to, why hasn’t he already found someone? THIS is the reason my limbo or shall I call it hell exists. It’s my default state of being. Imagine? After four years I still check his social media (how else would I have known he’s single, as we barely speak these days lol), I often get angry with myself that his well being still matters to me, I utilize every opportunity to maintain loosely in touch and each day/month/year that passes I wonder if I will take this feeling to my grave. I just CANNOT foresee my obsession ending. Purposeful feeling? I struggle with this immensely. I do so well in other areas of my life, this limerance has hooked into me and I’ve never have gone through anything remotely similar in my entire life and I’m nearing 50. Kids, I just might die this way.
Anxious Soul,
I think the only way to do it is to completely cut him out of your life. My LE went on longer than yours, and the only thing that has made me feel better was to quit the job in which I had to see him every day. (I had to get away from him. He was never going to stop flirting with me.) I have no contact with him. I don’t check up on him on social media. There are a couple of mutual acquaintances we share who I could ask about him … I never do. It’s been a year, and I think I feel about 50% better. But it finally took me saying to myself — enough is enough. Would part of me like to see him again? Yes, of course. But then there’s the other part of me that realizes he has made no effort to contact me, which speaks volumes. It wasn’t the answer I wanted, but it is an answer.
Marcia, you are absolutely right.
Soul, no contact is the only way. I’ve been going through what you have for only two years, but it has been torture. Uncertainty and his desire to keep me hanging on has made my life miserable. We are both single. There is a distance factor, but that’s just an excuse on his end. I have had other men in my life, other lovers. But he has been first and foremost. Finding this site has helped me realize that, for me, and for all of us, is due to chemicals. It’s not love.
I tried to tell myself many times that checking his social media was harmless. It may not start the process over again the way texting/calling does, but it’s close enough.
I understand the fear, the loss. I have been worried all this time that I will never find someone I can connect with the way I’ve connected with him. Maybe not. But I am sure as hell going to try.
The highs have been so joyful. But the lows after… Definitely withdrawal. Definitely not worth it. Definitely not love
Beth,
“But he has been first and foremost.”
In another post, you said, “My therapist described him as “broken.” She said he would drag me down. Like my dad, who had my mom to care for him.”
That could explain your LO’s glimmer and why other lovers come up short. Has your therapist gone into your background?
Check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ [I know, I link this a lot] Also, search the site for “glimmer” and read those.
What do you know of your LO’s background?
@Scharnhorst
I’ve self-analyzed for months.
I realized a few months in during a conversation with him that I needed to be needed. Part of the reason my 20+ years marriage thrived was because we had children. Between a career and children, I felt very needed and necessary.
I also felt guilty about leaving my intelligent, introverted ex, but he has a rich life and coping skills.
(We were already separated when I met LO.)
Not only was my LO also intelligent and witty, he was lonely. It was clear that he needed a partner and we bonded so easily. Our talks were deep and about everything.
During the conversation I referred to above, he told me that during bad days, he would think of me and he knew that I cared about him. What a balm for my soul! He would say things like this on a regular basis to keep me attached when he either didn’t have the inclination or the capability to be in a relationship with me, maybe not with anyone.
He doesn’t contact me now, in large part because I told him that it’s too difficult for me. He and I both knew that my extra, extra caring for him was not healthy.
I’ve often felt that if he had ended things early in the relationship, rather than keep me hooked, I would be OK. Or, if we had tried for a relationship and it hadn’t worked out, which it probably would not have, I would have been OK. It was the uncertainty and the distance, two barriers that Dr. L talks about, that really pulled me in. Plus physically, I like his type and of course the fact that he was lonely and needed someone in his life. Catnip for this limerent!
@Beth,
LO #4 said similar things to me. My catnip was an unhappy, crying woman who confided in me and told me I made her feel better. It’s powerful. LO #2 didn’t create those feelings, she brought old feelings to the surface.
A long time ago, the therapist said that I might have gotten the best from LO #2 that she was capable of giving me. That sentiment didn’t mean much at the time but, later on, when I started digging into things, it started to mean a lot more.
It helped open things up for me. Now, I can look back and see that there were things I needed to learn and LO #2 taught me some of them. We were what we each needed at the time and when that time was up, we could move on. It was very hard. It took me twenty years to appreciate what LO #2 taught me. I learned so much from her, good things and bad things. I think I’m where I am today in no small part because of the time I spent with her. She contributed to two of the best years of my pre-married life and, probably, the single worst year of my life to date. Losing my uncle, my great-grandmother, and my mother in a 5 month span (1974) didn’t hurt as bad as relinquishing LO #2. But, our time has long passed and we don’t belong together.
Maybe you and your LO were what you both needed at the time. If he truly is broken, maybe you got the best from him that he could give you. Maybe there are some real positive things that you can take away from all this and leverage them toward your happiness.
Maybe that’s how you frame a potential goodbye…you given him everything you had and you have nothing more to give.
I understand the part about NC, and let me clarify then- I’ve essentially been in it for 2 years because that’s how long I haven’t seen him in person. Other forms of engagement are also very rare, maybe a text here and there every few months. So it’s nothing. Can’t say it made a difference in my case. I’d argue, it prolongs the agony even further.
By NC, I mean nothing. No texts. No FB. Even seeing his FB update pulls me back.
And I have to tell you it was very difficult. He and I were part of several online groups. I found a lot of support in those groups but I had to cut myself off from anything connected to him. Because it would only lead to thoughts of him.
Of course my thoughts of him don’t end. Sometimes it’s so painful that I almost double over. My eyes fill with tears. But after finding this site and learning about Limerence, I feel more determined.
Anxious Soul,
And please keep in mind: It does not take someone years to show up in a meaningful way in your life. What you have with this man is what it will always be. I know it’s a hard pill to swallow, but a guy who wants to be with you will make that very clear. Otherwise, it’s just flim flam.
Anxious Soul,
I’m in NC at the moment, but a text from LO will set me on a spin for at least a day, often more. I think the power that we often invest in LOs often makes even the most minor contact irrationally potent.
I suppose hence the distinction between LC and NC…
I cracked briefly and posted happy birthday on my LOs FB page. Felt weird for 2-3 days after, out-of-sorts… literally I’d just posted ‘Happy birthday [his name]’. But it was enough. No reply to it made me sad. But nobody else got a reply either… irrational. But there you are I guess.
AS,
” I have been unable to move on because the mofo remained single.”
Do you seriously believe this? Do you really think that if the next time you checked his FB page there was a picture of your LO and his new wife taken at a luau on their honeymoon, you’d think ““Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty I’m free at last (Nelson Mandela)” and fire up Match?
Or, would you feel like you’d been gut-punched and “He could have had ME!
What’s she got that I haven’t got? What did she offer him that I didn’t? What could I have said or done differently to make him want me?”
Those thoughts can last for decades and pop up at really inconvenient times, trust me. But, embracing them is a choice. Get yourself a bottle of good booze, turn the lights down, and queue up Adele (or whatever drops you through the floor.) Make it a habit and you can die that way.
What’s your “fairy-tale-ending” to this? Can you really see yourself coming home to him, waking up next to him and growing old with him? Do you see yourself on the beach in Hawaii with him?
My LO was never someone I would have bonded with under normal circumstances. My reinforcement lately has been picturing him in my everyday life. We were never going to work.
Answering your question- yes, I would be utterly gutted to find out he’s married, had a child, etc. Will I think “what could I have done differently??” Of course.
Will this pop up for decades and make me emotionally stunted for life? Seems like it to me but please, tell me your story.
“Get yourself a bottle of good booze, turn the lights down, and queue up Adele (or whatever drops you through the floor.) Make it a habit and you can die that way.”
I think I’ll die this way then. I’ve been living on booze and permanent state of melancholy and nostalgia for years. What’s another 5,10 years until I croak?
What could he offer me? Himself? I’m attracted to his personality above all. This isn’t lust. I’m way pass that stage. I actually love him. For who he is.
That’s your prerogative. The pursuit of happiness is a choice. Nothing says you’ll find happiness even if you do pursue it.
Years ago, I thought LO #2 had a pathological aversion to happiness. The closer she got to it, the more it scared the living s–t out of her.
Post-breakup, LO #2 said, “I just want to stop feeling miserable all the time.” I told her that I didn’t understand. She was where she wanted to be, doing what she wanted to do, and sleeping with who she chose to sleep with (not me by this point). I asked who was making her miserable? She hung up on me. Early on, I told her that if she didn’t figure some things out, she had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person. She didn’t like that much, either.
She said she wanted to stop feeling miserable but when she had opportunities to change, she didn’t.
But, in the grand scheme of things, between being happy and unhappy, happy is better.
Song of the Day (redux): “Take Me for a Little While” -Dave Edmunds (19790
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFN9mCLOAMY
“I’ve got to stop it, there should be a law
Cause every time you put me down, I want you more
Oh, I feel so helpless, and it ain’t funny
Cause deep inside I know you’re never gonna love me”
AS,
My story is scattered all around LwL. Is there something specific you want to know?
Thank you for your reply above about the lessons you’ve taken from LO #2.
I’m trying to reframe my experience. I care about him, of course, but I could no longer put my concerns for him above my mental health. It was crushing me. The pain was mental, physical. It continues today.
The pain of being away from him will probably always hurt. I hope it lessens as time goes on.
“My story is scattered all around LwL…”
There’s ONE story in all of that?
😉
Some lives are too magisterial to be contained.
Ouch…
Meant with genuine affection, Scharn. Sorry if that didn’t translate.
I’ve heard the word but not in that context. As far as I know, I’ve never had that adjective applied to me.
I had to look it up. 🙂
One thing I have noticed in posts about peoples’ LEs is the LONG and complicated backstory. Relationships aren’t supposed to be this complicated. A relationship is bad when you have to go over every detail of what the other person said and did with a friend. If things are going well, you don’t have to tell the friend much of anything at all. That’s the test — the less you need to talk about it, the better it is.
Marcia,
No, it’s supposed to take work, of course, but a good relationship should not cause so much anxiety. There is an underlying feeling of love and support that is present for both.
Beth,
Getting together shouldn’t be this complicated. You like each other? You move forward. I don’t know the specifics of your case, but if you (the universal you) are waiting around for someone for months (or heaven help years) and you are both single and you aren’t together, you aren’t going to be. Or if the other person is not available and is giving you vague promises they will be available in the future but makes no steps to change his/her situation, again, it ain’t happening. The universe is not waving red flags but dropping a piano on your head. I ignored the piano for way too long. 🙂
Good point Marcia,
Definitely my LEs have all been very dramatic (from my perspective) but I bet that’s really common. By definition almost if you have a suitor, and a sought after other, and barriers and uncertainty… then how could it be otherwise?
Again, internally speaking. The outside world could well see it as rather banal..!
I know my friends roll their eyes a bit when during an LE I mention my LO, because in reality the right course of action is blindingly obvious (long story short; leave it alone) to everybody but the limerent!
Thomas,
“I know my friends roll their eyes a bit when during an LE I mention my LO, because in reality the right course of action is blindingly obvious (long story short; leave it alone) to everybody but the limerent!”
Yes.
They just don’t understand, Thomas. I just finished binging on George Michael interviews and he too was a tortured soul. Never got over his first love, Anselmo. I loved that man.
Anxious Soul,
“I just finished binging on George Michael interviews and he too was a tortured soul. Never got over his first love, Anselmo. I loved that man.”
I’m a big fan, too, but that isn’t true. Yes, the first love was a big one for him, but he had two other long-term, serious partners. If you read about writer Gore Vidal, he always said he met love of his life in high school. They had a brief, one-time sexual tryst when they were both 17. And then the young man was killed in WW2. Gore went on to have a serious partner for half a century. And to me, the whole thing was kind of sad. He idealized someone he barely knew … while real love was right next to him his whole life.
@Marcia. So, um, you don’t want me to start reading you the full-length novel version of what supposedly happened (or should have happened)? 😛
Sammy,
If you ever read books about writing, they all say the same thing about backstory in a novel … it stops the action dead in its tracks. You want to keep the story moving. What is happening NOW …. 🙂 So if you have a new adventure with your new LO … did you two go for a drink? Was a lustful moment exchanged? I would love to hear about that. Or even more stories about half-dressed encounters at the gym. 🙂
@Marcia. I hear what you’re saying loud and clear. Incidentally, I did try to write a novel once on an unrelated subject. It was all backstory and no action. “This is what So-and-So’s great-great grandfather did back in the day, etc”. Sad but true – I never got around to the plot.
Song of the Day: “Handle With Care” – Traveling Wilburys (1989)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSIhPQknJjI
“I’m so tired of being lonely
I still have some love to give
Won’t you show me that you really care?”
“A variation on the previous theme is mutual limerence between two people who are both conflicted. Here, the limbo-inducing dynamic is not caused by manipulative behaviour so much as indecisive behaviour. This is the hot/cold push/pull dance of two people failing to decisively manage their feelings, and ineffectively attempting to sever a connection that they are addicted to.
Even worse, when one of them finds some resolve and withdraws, the other panics and attempts to pull them back in. If the first person has a rescue-fantasy problem, this is pretty much guaranteed to stress test their resilience to breaking point, at which point they start telegraphing interest again, and the panicked second limerent gets temporary relief, followed by resentment about how they have been played for a fool and then they begin to withdraw.”
It never ceases to amaze me how accurately you can describe exactly what I’ve experienced. But I’m done with it. Attempt she may, but I will not go down that road again. I wasted nearly two years of my life. Never again.
It’s painful, isn’t it, B?
I admire your resolve and it sounds as if it is the right decision.
My LO decided he did not want a long distance relationship but expected us to maintain the same kind of intimacy. I was hurt, told him so, then went NC after that. We got back in touch but he was obviously angry at my initial decision for NC.
We did a push-pull dance for months after that. I believe by then I had fallen into limerence. After a year of this, I went NC. We got back in touch but the extreme high/cripplingly painful lows made me realize that NC is the only way.
I learned what limerence was about a week ago. For some reason, knowing that it’s biological and how it happened has helped me.
Now to work on rumination.
So grateful for this site!
You can make a second career out of reconciling limerence with Personality Disorders, Attachment Theory, and co-dependence underpinned by it’s neuroscience. But, it’s really interesting and it all makes sense.
During these months of inner turmoil, I read about attachment disorders, personality disorders. I was looking for any information to help. At least it has a name and almost all of the signs are there. I am astonished at how long it has lasted. But I’m not surprised. And I can easily see that someone could fall into this pit for months, years and decades.
B…your comment resonates so much with me, what make this dance even harder is when the mutual limerence is between 2 coworkers. The indecisive behavior and not being able to manage the feelings is a perfect storm for a disaster, yet something still fuels the need and or constant excitement and false reward system. My problem is that I still don’t stick to my own boundaries and set myself up for failure. She is my coworker and reports to me. It feels to me that she’s got a better grip on and is able to pull back, but she also holds the power and control the communication.
I’m still on that rocky road, and reading this blog provides so much value. However, removing yourself from limerence is not that easy and when NC is not an option, setting boundaries becomes much more important.
Charlie,
I know exactly what you are talking about because I did the limerence dance for years with someone, but from the vantage point I have now (being on the tail end of disillusionment), I realize now there was ultimately nothing going on between us. It was just some flaccid flirtation that didn’t mean anything. We weren’t in a relationship. We weren’t having an affair. So I got all worked up … over nothing.
Me three… I am doing the dance still but remotely currently. I am your opposite number Charlie, my LO is a married co-worker that I report to. I am also married but there is a small degree of flexibility in my marriage. Not sure if it is mutual limerence but I believe he has had feelings for me for as long as I have for him (1+ year).
We have both always maintained solid professional boundaries but it makes little difference, the hidden feelings show themselves very subtly to someone that is looking closely enough and I believe we both know about the other… in fact we knew pretty much straight away. But nothing has ever been said. I am not indecisive and would do the wrong thing given the chance, but the professional barrier stops me acting on it, and this awful Covid distancing excuses my choosing limbo. He plays the push/pull game a little, but unwittingly.
“she’s got a better grip on and is able to pull back, but she also holds the power and control the communication”
Very interesting. I am better at hiding my feelings than my LO. I now wonder if he thinks the same as you about that. Or the same as Marcia.
You have been working together for a year and nothing has ever been said? It will never be said (unless you say something). Limerence, to me, is a permanent state of LA LA Land. I guess I just don’t get it because most of of the people who write in already have somebody … who is real. When I look back on me LE, I just ask myself: What was I thinking? Why was I willing to pin so much hope on someone who had given me … nothing. There was no big love affair. There was no big romance. He was aware of my feelings (I threw myself at him) and he had PLENTY of time to follow through. If I do decide to get serious with someone in the future, I want to avoid people like me. 🙂 Getting fixated on a totally lost cause. I guess it’s my new thing this year. For friends, for potential dates. Can you show up? If not, I’m not interested. No more subtextual deep longing. 🙂
We are both shy. And I may never say anything because I like my job, and because of lack of any private opportunity.
But yes you are right and this is an excellent lesson for me… he will never say or do anything as it is too risky for him. And ultimately, the only conclusion I can draw is that to him, I am not worth taking that risk. Which is perfectly understandable. So my LE is a complete waste of time.
@Allie,
Did you learn anything?
Allie,
“he will never say or do anything as it is too risky for him. And ultimately, the only conclusion I can draw is that to him, I am not worth taking that risk.”
I came to the same conclusion about my LO. I was fine to flirt with and get little charge from, but meeting me hadn’t rocked his world the way meeting him rocked mine. I would have taken the risk for him. He didn’t feel the same way or didn’t have the backbone to follow through, which, if the real reason (and I’ll never know), is very unsexy (to me, at least). I don’t know which is worse — someone not liking you at all or someone not liking you enough.
@Scharnhorst
Here and now, I learned that what has happened already with my LE is an accurate predictor of what is to come. i.e. it is a lost cause. I just need to get that into my head sufficiently to enable me give up hope.
Stealing a page from Scharn’s SOTD…
https://youtu.be/0E7rUemfC-A
Just what I need…
Somebody else after my job.
DrL pays me by the song. 😉
Ah, I just knew you guys had a deal going. 😛
@Beth
One of LO’s favorite bands. Dammit I was doing fine until that. Jk
@Scharn…Ha! Wouldn’t dream of it
@ B
Oh man…my LO is very musical. Some days, I don’t open Spotify at all. Can’t do it. Won’t last forever tho
Songs of the Day (redux):
“Long Dark Road” – The Hollies (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9t9MCExwQ
“Here I Go Again” – Whitesnake (1987 rerelease)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SybJ55IuBz8
LO #2 could pull off Tawney Kitaen.
In the summer of 1987, I thought these songs predicted my destiny. I was wrong.
A great topic. I think some of us, though, get stuck in the limerent swamp without really meaning to. Certainly, I never anticipated my first time lasting so long…
What did I, as a gay man, get out of being limerent for a straight man? Well, energy, for one thing. I got ridiculous amounts of mental and physical energy. In fact, I don’t think I could “move on” emotionally until my super-charged, near-manic levels of energy started to subside. Limerence is like cocaine, not that I’ve ever taken cocaine. What do you do if you swear off drugs forever, and still can’t come down off your last high? In other words, I had to wait for my physical body to catch up with the rest of me. Took me twenty years.
Also, for me personally, a huge barrier to overcoming limerence, was my poor understanding of sex and sexuality. I always sensed there was something vaguely sexual about limerence, but couldn’t make the clear link between sex and limerence, because the link between sex and limerence isn’t particularly clear – not even for heterosexual couples.
In other words, limerence is about sex – of course it’s about sex. But it’s not a strictly linear relationship. As someone a bit shy about sexual feelings, I didn’t know what limerence meant. Maybe, being raised a good Christian boy and all, I didn’t want to know what limerence meant. The truth was too confronting. In certain circles, my sexual preference basically means social rejection. People are nice to you when you tell them, and then conveniently never speak to you again. It’s kind of sad. Such an environment is not conducive to honesty.
If I knew limerence equals unconscious sexual attraction, for example, and my LO only likes a specific sex, then, yes, I would have been able to move on in a heartbeat, no problems. I’m not really interested in chasing birds of the wrong feather. Actually, I’m confused why a straight male paid so much attention to me in the first place and made such a fuss of me? He had a very nice lady friend he eventually married. Maybe he should have spent more time entertaining her, and less time bothering me? For some weird reason, he admired me. Go figure.
As for my current LO, who is the same sexual preference as me, I’m dragging it out because of the excitement involved. I want the excitement to last. I’ve never had a crush on a more appropriate “love object” before, so I don’t feel especially guilt-ridden. I’m having a high-school type flirtation twenty years too late because I didn’t get to have a high-school type flirtation back in real-life high school. It’s pathetic I know, but so far I haven’t experienced any fallout. It’s fun. It’s silly. It’s wonderful to see the laughter in his eyes when I tell him a dirty joke.
I’ve also read hundreds of books on sex and sexuality in the meantime.
It doesn’t sound pathetic in the slightest.
@Allie. Thank you. Believe me when I say I’m not very good at telling dirty jokes, (in person anyway), but pulled this one off. He threw his head back, eyes shining, big smile. Said nothing, all body language. A full-grown man with the sense of humour of a little boy. What’s not to love about that?
It was a penis joke, if you must know. Something about having never seen one before. A blatant lie, of course. But that’s what made the joke so darn funny. (And one has to tell the joke with a perfectly straight face and an English accent. Don’t ask me why – English accents are hilarious to us Aussies. If you ever have to say anything even slightly embarrassing or inappropriate, it helps to say it in a very proper tone of voice).
I still remember the last time I told my mother a dirty joke. I was five. I couldn’t remember the punchline. Knock knock? Who’s there? Bare. Bare Who? Bare-bare-oh-gosh-I-don’t-remember. Still, my audience turned purple with rage and punished me. My mother is the strangest woman – incredibly prudish. No wonder my comedy skills remain a tad rusty!
I can’t help but wonder, when I’m prim and proper in real life, am I unconsciously parodying you-know-who? This is the problem with us gay men – we can’t seem to escape our mother’s subtle emotional influence – we either love them to death or turn into a grotesque version of them!
I’m so happy about the “stalemate” paragraph. I once wrote a (pathetic) poem about my current LE called “strange dance” and even at this point I’m still not sure whether my LO and I are dancing together or whether I’m dancing alone with a shadow I’ve created myself.
My LO glimmered and I went up to him and started a conversation in an attempt to get to know him. It just went downhill from there. He kept acting ambiguous, which made me insecure about how to act myself and I started being more and more ambiguous, too. To the point a friend said to me: “Both of you are complete weirdos, who just seem to be utterly confused by each other. I can’t decide who acts more peculiar towards the other.” So I (sort of) disclosed and he said, he’d wondered about my intentions because they were far from obvious. I stated, I felt he didn’t reciprocate and he asked what made me think that and never really properly responded to my statement. And the dance continued…
I find it so hard to let go because I’m not sure if the fact that “we” are not progressing can be sourced back to me and my inability to act authentically around him and show my interest openly. There’s this little voice telling me: “If you just changed the way you act, a relationship would be in the realm of possibility”. Limerence limbo really is a personal hell.
What is this but a warning sign. If the dynamic is so flawed and you have an obvious communication mismatch, how could you ever have a fulfilling relationship. The push/pull is not going to stop just because you decide to change the relationship status or add physical intimacy to the game etc. What an awful outlook on a potential relationship!
BLE,
If you disclosed, he knows you are interested. I mean, you can ask him out (and I would use the word date so there is no ambiguity). I know it won’t be easy, but after you asked, I’d leave the ball in his court. And then you’ll have your answer. You can make it as simple as a coffee date or a drinks date.
Oh, he asked me out to dinner and then it never happened because we never actually set a date. I don’t feel comfortable sharing the details on the internet but I think “strange dance” once again describes it best. It became so ridiculous that after a while I said I didn’t want to go anymore.
He has a very avoidant personality style. To be honest I’m not sure how he would react if I asked him out for coffee or if this reaction was a reflection of his feelings either way.
But even writing this I realize there is no way I could have a fulfilling relationship with him – so, NC it is. It’s just SO hard. I might have to move to a different city.
BLE,
“Oh, he asked me out to dinner and then it never happened because we never actually set a date.”
So when he asked you out, you never asked when you were going? Or he left it up in the air but neither of you brought it up again?
@Marcia
I’m not sure how to answer your questions without being too specific about the details. I just wrote a long paragraph explaining what happened but realized I don’t feel comfortable sharing this online. So I’ll try to keep it vague.
There was a natural hold-up for why we couldn’t set a date at the time he asked. Also the way he phrased it, was so ambiguous that I wasn’t sure he actually wanted to go or whether it was supposed to be a date or not. That was long before disclosing, so I thought maybe he was insecure as well. We kinda planned it out, though, and it was fun talking about it. But then it just never happened. He kept bringing it up again and again (for months!!) but also pushed it further and further into the future. Sometime inbetween I disclosed (clumsily and probably also quite ambiguously). His strange behaviour continued, until I said I didn’t want to go anymore.
BLE,
“He kept bringing it up again and again (for months!!) but also pushed it further and further into the future. ”
I would have tried to pin him down on a date. “How about we go tomorrow? I can go at 6.” And if he tried to put it out into the future or was vague, you could have decided what you wanted to do from there.
“I’m still not sure whether my LO and I are dancing together or whether I’m dancing alone with a shadow I’ve created myself”
Such a great description of what is happening to me too BLE! I have indulged in so much reverie that I have created this part-imaginary lover in my mind. I know with certainty that my LO has strong feelings for me but not if we are dancing the same dance or not – I cannot trust my judgement on this fully. We both behave in an avoidant but curious way around each other, not really knowing how to relate to each other unless it is about work. I have never disclosed and I feel like that is a barrier to my recovery because until I know for sure that he knows I reciprocate his feelings, I will continue to struggle to stop hoping for *something*.
But you are both right (BLE, Marcia), if nothing has happened after so long, nothing ever will.
Hi Allie,
do you mean romantic feelings when you refer to how he feels about you? Or is the nature of the feelings what you are not sure about?
What keeps you from disclosing?
Yes I am certain he has romantic feelings towards me, but we are both married. I would be content with an emotional relationship (which is OK in my marriage).
What stops me? LO is my boss and I have never been on my own with him outside of the office. His avoidant behaviour makes me unsure if he would be open to talking about our “dance” – I like working with him so don’t want to risk a good working relationship.
Allie,
I’m certain my LO had feelings for me, too, but he was never going to do anything about them. And that was torturous. I wanted so much more. I’m a limerent. I wanted the whole, big 9. 🙂 So I eventually had to leave the job and go NC.
Just been re-reading the blog posts above. I feel foolish as I am saying exactly the same thing, feeling the same way, staying in the same state 7 months later. Nothing ever changes unless you make it change I guess. My LE brain is an idiot!
Songs of “the Dance”:
“Let’s Dance” – David Bowie (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktdQiODWt84
This song came out about the time my “dance” with LO #2 took off in earnest.
“Dance Me to the End of Love” – Leonard Cohen (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTqoGu61IIs –
This song came out when LO #2 were full bore into our dance.
But, with limerence, the “dance” is often more Billy Idol than David Bowie or Leonard Cohen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGdNOCSIQAw – “Dancing With Myself” – Billy Idol (1980)
OT: What I wouldn’t give be be Leonard Cohen class cool…
Commenting on the blog post after 4 years of crazy hard painful NC (luckily no longer painful)
“The worst scenario is a manipulative LO. Sometimes, the LO has no intention of committing, but every intention of keeping their narcissistic supply coming. This is the worst kind of limbo, because any attempt to escape countered by an LO who resists and pulls you back in, giving just enough attention and reciprocation to make you doubt your resolve to move on, because clearly there is something between you, but… what exactly?”
– Simple to solve. You give a deadline to the person to give you a definite yes/no.
So they do not have a way to resist and pull you back in, you’re not a helpless child like that.
I did that BTW, giving an ultimatum with a deadline
You can ofcourse put it in a polite way too if you are concerned about conflict…. But if the other person is normal and sensible and decent they won’t get too offended even if you phrase it bluntly as an ultimatum without being too rude or aggressive ofcourse
– “Basically, sometimes an LO can play us. In terms of the neurochemistry, they are giving an intermittent reward that is difficult to adapt to, and resistant to extinction of the reward memory. A classic example is this case study of an LO who was still trying to keep a limerent hooked during their wedding to someone else.”
– I mean, anyone who doesn’t like unnecessary pain and can use their rational senses will be able to leave as soon as there is no *satisfactory* reward anymore. I mean I know limerence is supposed to be an addiction but if you look deep and hard into yourself surely you can see that it’s not *satisfying*.
“Even worse, when one of them finds some resolve and withdraws, the other panics and attempts to pull them back in. If the first person has a rescue-fantasy problem, this is pretty much guaranteed to stress test their resilience to breaking point”
– Well sure life stresstests your resilience sometimes, so what?
“Hope is very powerful.”
– Not really to me. If it’s not based in reality then no!
“Like any habit, slipping into a state of romantic daydreams and rewarding fantasy is comfortable and familiar.”
– Not to me, if there are no REAL satisfactory rewards.
“Many limerents – especially, perhaps introvert limerents – use reverie for mood regulation.”
– I’m definitely *not* socially extraverted. Yet I can’t believe in fantasies, so I cannot use fantasy reveries for mood regulation when it comes to fantasising about a real person or my actual life.
“It’s a lacklustre substitute for the real thing of actual reciprocation from LO”
– Agreed, it’s very lacklustre, hardly any real dopamine for me out of fantasy, when it could and should be a real tangible reward
“Better the faint warmth of imagined love than the volatility and uncertainty of a real-life relationship.”
– A real life relationship isn’t primarily about volatility or uncertainty.
If you have put in the effort to get experience with them, then it’s hardly about that. Maybe this is the main point of my comment.
“Yes, it’s frightening to disclose to an LO who might say no.”
– I disagree. Either the LO is available in practice, in which case it’s just normal initiative-taking, not some frightening, unreal risk. Practice initiative-taking.
Or they are not available and then you’re not gonna humiliate yourself like that, just move on.
“It’s also frightening to walk away from an LO who you really want to be with, but can’t be now, in case their circumstances change in the future.”
– “What if” possibilities are not real!
“It’s also frightening to think you might move too soon, or too late, or bungle your declaration in some way that means you wreck your one chance to make a good first impression.”
– Again who cares about all these unreal “what ifs”. They are not in front of you, are not tangible, do not exist. Make your decision based on what you want then go do the thing. Accept possible negative consequences without blowing the risk out of proportion, keep your head screwed on, and know that what you ultimately want is worth the risk of the negative consequences.
There is no way to know what is “too soon” or “too late” so might as well make your move NOW.
“You should fear wasting years on someone who doesn’t want to give themselves to you.”
– You better have enough pride and self-esteem not to waste any time on someone who doesn’t care about you.
“Limbo is safe, but it’s the stultifying safety of a gilded cage.”
– It’s worse than a gilded cage.
It’s not safe at all, it’s you being wasted away and if the LO is narcissistic then it’s exploitation and humiliation on top of it.
Hardly any gild.
40 year old limerent here. My LO is my student, also she is the long-awaited colleague in a work environment where we were so desperately waiting for somebody to finally come and by sharing the work, make life and work a little less hard. We always were critically understaffed.
This is my first LE, though in hindsight maybe this is just my first full-scale LE – on previous occasions, only the glimmer happened.
Along comes this young spirit, full of energy and goofiness and ambition, smart and witty, me being semi-burnt-out and so began our (probably mutual) LE – after a month of or so, she disclosed she had “very intense” feelings for me, how in a way she envies me – that I have a “loving, caring marriage”, that “I’m succesful”.
Long story short … and then things went south AKA (probably?) mutual limerence.
For a couple of days, reality was distorted. It was an emotional rollercoaster, the undescribable bliss being around her and the tremendous guilt of me being a cheater – and I didn’t know what to do, I was constantly having these intrusive thoughts about LO, NOT always pleasant, wanting desperately to regain some degree of control. It happened too fast, and I didn’t want any of this to happen.
And I couldn’t eat for days. And then I found this site and I learned about limerence.
Now, 1 month after it all started with that one kiss, I’m feeling a bit better. Or rather, I was feeling better.
Because our situation, NC is not feasible – I passed on her tutorship to one of my colleagues. We are still talking and seeing each other on a daily basis.
Told her that I do love my SO and my kid. That indeed, these must have been hard times for our marriage, I was away a lot of time from my family (still am) but I can’ be with her – hell, what gave it away that this is actually limerence was the fact that she wanted to be my wife. KNOWING that I am married. After 1 month of working together. And me, being also limerent, not finding this as a red flag – not considering the age gap between us (15 years). That’s how distorted my reality was, and in a way, still is.
I never really wanted to divorce. I never couldn’t vilify my SO, tough in hindsight, LO was always pointing out how much more “fitting” we would be for each other, being “soulmates”. I explained to her (and myself) in every way I could think of, that any sort of relationship between us can happen. And I tried to be as consistent as I could.
“Can we still be friends then since we’re soulmates and still working together? If you ever get divorced, will I be the first one you’d call?” – LO asked. First question, I’m working on. Second one? This is tricky.
Being friends and colleagues with LO when NC is not possible? I try. And she tries. It’s a slow process, but I’m thinking, maybe we can sort this out. Most of the emotional rollercoaster feelings are gone. My palms are still sweating when near LO, but I feel I have a good degree of control over this – I am again present in my activities, I regained my appetite, can finally sleep well, all in all, I feel better than before.
But what about those daydreamings about LO, while not as intrusive and not at all frustrating? Is it just my subconscious clicking into mood repair mode? Am I fooling myself?
So is this limbo? Back to square one? I’m actually considering disclosing this to my SO though I know this might not be a wise choice. Rule one for me was to not make any life-changing decisions “while under the influence”. But I feel that my SO could understand me, she deserves to know. She clearly seems to know me better than I do.
Sorry for the long post – this is my first one ever in any forum, I guess I was always more of a reader than a writer. And here it40 year old limerent here. My LO is my student, also she is the long-awaited colleague in a work environment where we were so desperately waiting for somebody to finally come and by sharing the work, make life and work a little less hard. We always were critically understaffed.
This is my first LE, though in hindsight maybe this is just my first full-scale LE – on previous occasions, only the glimmer happened.
Along comes this young spirit, full of energy and goofiness and ambition, smart and witty, me being semi-burnt-out and so began our (probably mutual) LE – after a month of or so, she disclosed she had “very intense” feelings for me, how in a way she envies me – that I have a “loving, caring marriage”, that “I’m succesful”.
Long story short … and then things went south AKA (probably?) mutual limerence.
For a couple of days, reality was distorted. It was an emotional rollercoaster, the undescribable bliss being around her and the tremendous guilt of me being a cheater – and I didn’t know what to do, I was constantly having these intrusive thoughts about LO, NOT always pleasant, wanting desperately to regain some degree of control. It happened too fast, and I didn’t want any of this to happen.
And I couldn’t eat for days. And then I found this site and I learned about limerence.
Now, 1 month after it all started with that one kiss, I’m feeling a bit better. Or rather, I was feeling better.
Because our situation, NC is not feasible – I passed on her tutorship to one of my colleagues. We are still talking and seeing each other on a daily basis.
Told her that I do love my SO and my kid. That indeed, these must have been hard times for our marriage, I was away a lot of time from my family (still am) but I can’ be with her – hell, what gave it away that this is actually limerence was the fact that she wanted to be my wife. KNOWING that I am married. After 1 month of working together. And me, being also limerent, not finding this as a red flag – not considering the age gap between us (15 years). That’s how distorted my reality was, and in a way, still is.
I never really wanted to divorce. I never couldn’t vilify my SO, tough in hindsight, LO was always pointing out how much more “fitting” we would be for each other, being “soulmates”. I explained to her (and myself) in every way I could think of, that any sort of relationship between us can happen. And I tried to be as consistent as I could.
“Can we still be friends then since we’re soulmates and still working together? If you ever get divorced, will I be the first one you’d call?” – LO asked. First question, I’m working on. Second one? This is tricky.
Being friends and colleagues with LO when NC is not possible? I try. And she tries. It’s a slow process, but I’m thinking, maybe we can sort this out. Most of the emotional rollercoaster feelings are gone. My palms are still sweating when near LO, but I feel I have a good degree of control over this – I am again present in my activities, I regained my appetite, can finally sleep well, all in all, I feel better than before.
But what about those daydreamings about LO, while not as intrusive and not at all frustrating? Is it just my subconscious clicking into mood repair mode? Am I fooling myself?
So is this limbo? Back to square one? I’m actually considering disclosing this to my SO though I know this might not be a wise choice. Rule one for me was to not make any life-changing decisions “while under the influence”. But I feel that my SO could understand me, she deserves to know. She clearly seems to know me better than I do.
TheLimerentMe,
“So is this limbo? ”
I don’t think you are in limbo. You know how your LO feels. Limbo, at least to me, is choosing to stay in a state of uncertainty — “Is it mutual? I think, but I’m not sure. I haven’t disclosed; they haven’t disclosed.” Because sometimes, to find out the truth about how the LO feels or what they plan to do, can be painful. Thus, staying limbo.
It sounds like your LE is mutual.
Yes I think you’re right.
Though LO keeps dismissing the whole limerence concept, says that if it makes me feel better if I consider myself to be “sick with something” then it’s my problem, my own way of handling my guilt and frustration.
Oh yes, and she’s in a relationship too, though she’s not married. Seems to me that she’s in denial but God, what a mess we are.
Worst thing is that I can see no resolution to this – I know that this is wrong on every level, yet I can’t seem to let her go.
I’m curious if anyone ever could end their limerence through sheer willpower.
On a side note – sorry for that earlier post, I did not edit it and it seems like gibberish now (it was 4 in the morning here).
Wanted to say so many things, ended up writing a mess.
It would not be possible to have a meaningful relationship with my LO. I’m married and I do love my family. Plus the age gap and pardon me, status gap between me and LO. My rational brain knows this. How come I still feel so attracted to LO, to something I know only exists in my fantasy? Damn false reward system. I know I should be better than this but the push-pull dynamic seems to weaken my resolve.
I know medication is not THE answer here, but has anyone here tried SSRIs?
A friend at work suggested that I should try the pills but I’m having doubts.
TheLimerentMe,
“I’m curious if anyone ever could end their limerence through sheer willpower.”
The only thing that worked for me was NC and time. A little over two years of NC and I have so much more perspective on it. I now see ruminating over an unavailable person as a huge waste of time. But in the middle of the LE, I thought the world was at stake.
He was a co-worker like your LO. I couldn’t be around him. I left the job. I don’t know if that is an option for you.
Is it weird if my LO acts and feels like I do and is also behaving like I am his own LO?
You talked about the slight warmth of the fantasy of a relationship with LO being a better alternative to a real life relationship with them that might be dissapointing.
That’s exactly how I feel (and LO feels, too). All my real life relationships have been tough and dissapointing, including those with my family (I was raised by non-empathetic people). As a result, I closed myself off to any relationship with a real person. And it’s not only because real life is worse and colder but because my brain is so affected by trauma that, if I were to actually be in that happy, 2-sided relationship with LO or someone else, I’d either turn numb and stop feeling the feelings and resent the relationship or become too excited about them, too clingy, needy and desperate and would eventually chase them away (who would want that type of behavior?).
I’m trying to find a type of therapy that could help me shed this numb feeling, this inability to accept emotions, happiness and kind love. I believe if this problem is solved, my brain will, slowly start rejecting the feeling of being obsessed with another person and get more pleasure from real-life experiences.
I feel so fucked up from 35+ of trauma and pain. Anyone else feel the same?