Following on from last week’s musings, this week I’ve decided to inaugurate a new feature for the blog: the everlasting thread.
The goal for this is to be a specific place for open discussions – a home for rambling musings, and reflections on issues related to limerence but not exactly relevant to the more formal articles. A LwL coffeehouse, if you will.
Rather than just throwing things open with a hearty “welcome, what’s on your mind?”, I thought it would good to kick off the discussions with a talking point of some sort. A conversational seed to get things growing.
For this first installment, we’re talking purposeful living.
Life is full of challenges
It may have come to your attention over the last few years that life can be full of challenges. There are large forces outside of our control that can shake the foundations of civilisation – disease, war, economic collapse, environmental collapse, cultural schisms.
In the face of such forces, our own concerns seem trivial. Maybe we’re wrestling with a distressing bout of limerence… but we’re not literally fighting for our lives. Worrying about an emotional crisis can seem quite self-centred – even narcissistic – when other people are struggling to feed their families.
This “big picture” perspective can also make purposeful living look a bit petty. Oh, are you not feeling fully all empowered and motivated and self-actualised? Poor diddums. How about you think about other people’s real problems and try and solve them instead?
How to solve big problems
It’s an understandable sentiment, but there is a bit of a problem hidden within it: how do you solve problems as big as a pandemic, or a war, or cultural polarisation?
Obviously, there are lots of possible answers to that question, but taking a sociohistorical view there seem to be two main attitudes that have shaped the discourse over the years.
Camp 1 believes that social systems become corrupted over time, and that we need to use human ingenuity to continually revitalise and reimagine them to make progress. Without renewal, society devolves into a racket that serves the needs of the powerful. That leads to inequality, mismanagement and cruelty.
Camp 2 believes that social systems are incredibly complex and delicate networks that can be broken far more easily than they can be improved. Without conservation, the hard won wisdom of past generations will be lost in the egotistical delusion that we know better. That leads to moral vanity, degeneracy, and civil disorder.
The real difficulty, of course, is that both camps are correct. Corrupt plutocrats do rig systems to suit themselves, and twenty year old activists don’t know how to create utopia – no matter how earnestly they want to.
What can any one person do?
We all of us have to navigate this central dilemma: how to manage our own life and our own personal difficulties, while also being a worthwhile member of society. This is where the tension between private purpose and public service comes from.
For people who believe wholeheartedly in the “camp 1” vision of society, purpose would be found in activism – the system needs to be fundamentally changed to make life better for everyone. For people who believe wholeheartedly in the “camp 2” vision, purpose would be found in personal transformation – if you are struggling in the current system, it’s a sign you need to improve your skills and provide more value.
Bluntly: blame the system or blame yourself.
The voices arguing these two perspectives on social media are growing ever louder and more intemperate.
Rather than add to that noise, I’m going to propose a point for discussion: I don’t think it matters who is right. Whether you relate more to camp 1 or camp 2, the best response for an individual is always to focus on improving yourself.
Here’s the basis of my argument: if you concentrate on developing the self-awareness, honesty and integrity needed to live with purpose, you will be a better member of society too. Focusing on yourself is not petty or narcissistic in the face of global challenges, it is, in fact, the best chance you have of weathering those challenges.
If, in contrast, you set aside your own needs and live according to other people’s priorities, you are likely to be more vulnerable to manipulation, more prone to resentment and anger, dissatisfied with life, and generally less emotionally resilient.
Purposeful living doesn’t just protect you against your own emotional trials, it also equips you to work with others to build a civilisation that allows free people to thrive.
So, that’s my provocative opening salvo for coffeehouse chat. What d’you all think?
I’ll need an extra hot, triple shot, skinny, venti, mocha latte, with extra whip and chocolate sprinkles, while I think about this and come up with a Song of the Blog. Nothing is jumping out at me but I’m only on my second cup of coffee.
You can take the boy out of Seattle but you can’t take Seattle out of the boy.
“Here’s the basis of my argument: if you concentrate on developing the self-awareness, honesty and integrity needed to live with purpose, you will be a better member of society too.”
LO #4 said much the same thing in one of her posts but in a different context. She added two elements, loyalty, and comprehending the difference between the need to do what’s right and needing to be right. In another post, she said that you either have integrity or you don’t. She said that even people with integrity can act outside of it but if the do, they recognize it and modify their behavior accordingly to get back to it.
It was after we’d said goodbye. The Narc in me would like to think that if she wasn’t referring to me explicitly, that I at least crossed her mind when the said it. It would be a nice legacy.
I thought of a blog post or limerence topic based on last week’s posts: The sneakiness of limerence. The almost spy-level subterfuge. What we hide from ourselves, what we hide from other people.
“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night
“I read posts and think — thank goodness I’m not married. I read a few more and think — thank goodness I’m not married to a limerent. ” 🙂
–Marcia, blog commenter
Song of the Thread: “The Stranger” – Billy Joel (1977)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6yQ14TGB8U
“Well, we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out
And show ourselves
When everyone has gone”
I won this album as a door prize at the Student Union theater in 1977.
I’m of 2 schools of thought on the sneakiness. Yes, you are an autonomous person and should not have to explain a small subscription fee on a Visa bill (nor would I want to be married to someone who was combing through a Visa bill line item by line item). But … then it would be a subscription to this site, which basically announces to an SO: I am writing about some woman I am besotted with, who is not you. I had a friend who found out her husband was paying for porn sites but not just videos. Live fees with live people. To me, we’re getting into a gray zone with live people, but I’d actually much rather have a spouse on live porn sites (provided it wasn’t with the same person all the time) than be a on a site about limerence. Limerence is a whole different ball game.
Marcia,
People do a lot of things for a lot of reasons, many of whom don’t know why they do what they do. There are a lot of unhappy people out there who keep making the same mistakes.
If you want to go completely OT, you can speculate if limerence is an exclusively first-world problem. Neuroscience is neuroscience but one wonders if limerence is unique to Western societies.
Maybe DrL could make a post showing the number of LwL posters by country. It’s not that hard to set up a poll.
In my response to LO #4’s goodbye, I told her that maybe the take-away from all this was that even when you’re not looking for trouble, you can still find it. I wasn’t looking for trouble and I definitely found it.
I knew when I asked LO #2 to marry me that she wasn’t the woman I wanted to come home to at night, wake up next to in the morning and grow old with. But, I thought she could be that woman. She said that I had a fear of commitment. Being an avoidant, she could spot another avoidant. As long as I kept my distance, I was the villain.
I came to the conclusion that if I asked her to marry me, that would demonstrate my commitment, she’d finally trust me, and we could build a future together. It was risky and naive. Her response was to decline and move across the country to get away from me.
I can’t say for certain that I’ll never have another LE. But, I’m pretty sure it won’t be the same type of LO. I’ve identified and corrected that vulnerability. There could be another, as yet unidentified, threat/vulnerability that could knock me off the rails but considering my age, I don’t think that’s likely. If I haven’t seen it by now, I’m probably not going to.
Ok. But you’re posting about past LOs from years ago, right? I think that would be an issue for a lot of SOs. Not that you didn’t have a current LO. Especially if I was under the impression those ghosts had floated away a long time ago. But, idk. I knew my one LO who became a boyfriend was shopping around for other possibilities. We ran into one of them at a restaurant and I never asked him about it. Never said a word. But by that point, I was pretty checked out of the relationship. That’s the only circumstance I can think of where finding out an SO was posting on this site wouldn’t bother me. I am speaking for myself. I don’t know how other SOs would feel.
Marcia, relationships tend to feel very different when you have been together for decades, have kids together, shared finances, shared home, etc. More complacent but also much more secure ad you feel much more invested in their happiness outside of your relationship with them.
I would have found SO really fancying another woman hard to take in our first few years together. But nowadays I would just think to myself “Good for you! Glad your libido is still alive, enjoy the feeling while it lasts”.
I think I kind of know what you mean – I’d have no problem with my wife fancying someone if I was sure she wouldn’t cultivate it (and definitely not act on it). But, it might nag at me if they were spending time together. I don’t think I’d ever be completely blase about it.
Marcia,
Nobody’s life is clean.
Nobody’s
Allie,
“I would have found SO really fancying another woman hard to take in our first few years together. But nowadays I would just think to myself “Good for you! Glad your libido is still alive, enjoy the feeling while it lasts”.”
But didn’t you write you had no sexual interest anymore in your husband? I think if there’s still some sexual interest there, an LE for someone else would bother a lot of SOs.
“But didn’t you write you had no sexual interest anymore in your husband? I think if there’s still some sexual interest there, an LE for someone else would bother a lot of SOs.”
I love my SO and depend on him. Just because you don’t feel that much sexual desire for your SO any more, does not mean you wouldn’t prefer them to be completely and utterly devoted to you still 🙂
“I think I kind of know what you mean – I’d have no problem with my wife fancying someone if I was sure she wouldn’t cultivate it (and definitely not act on it). ” – DrL
Therein lies the problem.
When I asked a co-worker if she’d be worried if a casual acquaintance was confiding in her husband the way LO #4 was confiding in me, she said it would. My co-worker also said it was unwise for LO #4 to be confiding that to any man but to confide in a married man was inappropriate. She said, “It’s too easy for that to go sideways.”
As LO #4 so eloquently put it in her goodbye, “I’ve been trying to put myself in your wife’s shoes. How would you feel if she were corresponding with a man she was attracted to in the same capacity [yep, she said, “capacity”] that you write to me. If you have to hide our correspondence from your wife, it’s not good.”
If she’d said that a few years earlier instead of “What do I telegraph to you?” we might have reached goodbye a lot sooner and with a lot less angst. My guess is she wasn’t sharing our correspondence with her BF, either. When I wanted to mail her something, she had me send it via her mother. [true]
Two of the mistakes I’ve tended to make over the years is (1) that the people I’m dealing with have fewer problems than I do and (2) that they know what they’re doing when they’re muddling along just like I am.
That elephant had been in the room for years before LO #4 shot it.
Things can go sideways. Just because you don’t intend to cultivate something doesn’t mean it can’t take on a life of its own. Even if you try to do the right things for the right reasons, you can’t guarantee good results. If you’re rationalizing your way through things, the odds of good results are worse.
I knew that I was on shaky ground from the minute LO #4 asked what she telegraphed to me. I rationalized my way around it to manage any cognitive dissonance, assessed the risk, and developed contingencies. It worked for a long time but what I didn’t realize was that we were building an attachment.
Then, she changed the ballgame and most of it went out the window.
Yeah, that’s a rich topic, for sure.
So much of it is subconscious at first. You do have to develop some self-awareness to listen to the minor pangs of conscience when you start being sneaky (with social media browsing, meeting a bit more than is necessary, etc. etc.), and what that means for starting down the Road to Limerence…
indeed! sometimes i’m not even sure anymore if my goal of what i’m doing. Is there a sneaky little motive hidden that i’m actually doing all this to seek Los approval?
My first answer would be “no, i like to do this. (also true)
My second question is: why do you post it on FB wen you know Lo will see it? The lenght my mind will go to manipulate me into contact, any kind of contact, even non excisting contact is amazing.
You probably don’t want their approval, you want their curiosity.
We may not want to have anything to do with us but we don’t want them to forget us. We may not admit it but we’d love to be a thorn in their side forever.
Song of the Thread: “Am I That Easy to Forget?” – Englebert Humperdinck (1969)
https://youtu.be/dDyLs7_aMtE
They need a reason. Dropping some bait every so often gives them one and just might keep them coming back.
Who knows? Something just might come of it. Limerents live for this notion.
Innocent, innocuous, and entirely self-serving.
So true Eme, my mind (or Ego) can not stand the idea that they forget about me while I’m still struggling.
Thank you for calling it innocent, I was being harsh on myself that it was a bit pathetic. I’m sure this also will pass one day. And I can do things without giving a S.. if LO sees it or not.
eme, I always wondered how Dave is doing. I don’t see his name anymore. I hope he is ok.
Mia,
Here’s the thing. Two can play the intermittent reward game. Locking down your social media will help them lose interest. Post everything and you can get the same result. There’s less reason to look at you if they know what they’re likely to find.
But, if you post intermittently and you cross there mind, they just might wonder what you’re up to and check you out. Just to see if anything’s changed.
Clip of the Post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I530sPVQSc8 – “Dirty Harry” (1971)
“I gots to know…”
You want to be Dirty Harry.
I want certain people to get certain messages. For example, if LO #2 ever looks at me, I want her to see that I’m still married to the woman I picked over her. I never want her to forget that.
With LO #4, it’s a different message. She said under different circumstances, she might be curious. I hope that she never loses that feeling. If she looks, I want her to know my status. If I went silent and she did come out of the woodwork for some reason, I’d decline her reengaging me. LO #4 might give me a second chance but I don’t think she’d give me a third. If my circumstances ever change, I have the option of taking another shot.
Think of it like laying a minefield. You plant them, forget about them, and, if one goes off, you’ll likely never know it. In most cases, you really don’t want to know about it.
Now, in anticipation of Marcia’s asking “Why?” Because, it’s how I’m choosing to do things. If you think you might want a certain outcome some day, it’s better to tilt the odds in that direction, even if it’s an entirely passive endeavor.
I don’t think they’re going to canonize me anytime soon and if they do, attendance at the after-party is optional.
LE,
“Now, in anticipation of Marcia’s asking “Why?” Because, it’s how I’m choosing to do things. ”
LOL. Do things however you want to, but it sounds like you playing a game where you’re the only one in the ring. The LO with whom I got serious is free to post anything he wants to online. It won’t affect me.
My last LO made some statement about things not going well his marriage, he wasn’t sure what would happen … he would contact me if things changed. Did he mean it in the moment? I think so. But has that moment long passed? Yes. It was some comment he tossed out. I don’t take that seriously now. And is the door still open on my end? No! I hope he’s not thinking that I am, in any way shape or form, still a possibility simply because I showed interest in him at one time. (I highly doubt that he does. I’m sure he’s hardly given it a thought.) That ship has sailed.
Marcia,
“Do things however you want to, but it sounds like you playing a game where you’re the only one in the ring.”
Dance floor! Dance floorrr!!!! Get it right!!!! 🙂
Queue up Billy Idol…
“Dancing With Myself” (1982)
https://youtu.be/cCCQu5ozxuM
Marcia,
I had dreams of hurting my LOs, sure. After the LEs were waning. (Except the one who became a boyfriend. Tbh, I just wanted out.) But you can’t hurt someone who barely cares or doesn’t care at all.
I think my feet are firmly in both camps on this one 🙂
“if you concentrate on developing the self-awareness, honesty and integrity needed to live with purpose, you will be a better member of society too. ”
100% agree!! Every interaction we have with someone sends ripples outwards. I would add cultivating heartfelt compassion to this list, both for self and others. For me this is an essential component of how by living well, in accordance with personal values, setting a good example rather than following a bad one, can bring benefit to others.
Saying that though, I don’t think self-improvement is enough on its own. We need people to stand up against the flow sometimes. Consider historic issues like gender inequality (the vote for women!), apartheid, slavery, fascism, as well as the more modern issues of corporate & political corruption, the gradual decay of democracy, delusional Russian dictators, etc. If we want any positive change at all (via revolution or evolution, whichever is your bag), we can’t always rely on others to do that for us. Someone has to step up.
That’s where I often find myself standing too!
But, it can feel like doing the splits these days.
Love the word plutocrat’ btw. I was looking for a good word to describe US and UK political systems. Plutocracy fits the bill perfectly!
Allie,
” does not mean you wouldn’t prefer them to be completely and utterly devoted to you still”
Well, that’s the issue, isn’t it? If an SO becomes limerent for someone else (and I DON’T mean finds attractive or enjoys a mild flirtation with) .. but actual limerence, their devotion to the SO will be compromised. A large part of their sexual, mental and emotional energy will be focused on someone else, whether they act on it or not
I know what you mean although I don’t find love to be a limited resource – our capacity for it just expands as it finds new avenues. My SO has lost nothing as a result of my feelings for LO. I do not exist just for my SOs happiness, he does not exist just for mine – we have a life that we live beyond each other.
But my main point was in my careful choice of words…. I would *prefer* a lot of things in life to be different to how they are (most often other people and their behaviour!), and when things are not as a I prefer it can cause discomfort. But I accept that and learn to live happily with it as is.
Allie,
“My SO has lost nothing as a result of my feelings for LO.”
If your SO feels that way, I guess that’s fine.
On a separate note, the more I read the posts on limerence, the more I just see it as complete self-indulgence. Unless it moves into something (and by that, I mean that there has to be a sexual consummation/some kind of relationship), what’s the point? It’s like closing oneself off in a room to di**le oneself for hours on end . 🙂
” I would *prefer* a lot of things in life to be different to how they are (most often other people and their behaviour!), and when things are not as a I prefer it can cause discomfort.”
I hear you there. People are who they are. Take them for who they and what they give you because that will not change.
One of my limerent friends wants to talk about running. We started our conversation on an article that isn’t about running so we got a little off topic. In an attempt to follow the rules, I’ll ask him to meet me at the coffee house so we can chat. Running is a great way to deal with difficulties so maybe this is a good place for us to meet. I’ll post a link to our original conversation.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-best-cure-for-limerence/#comment-49843
We shall see if he shows up…
Hi Lovisa, and hello to all.
Thanks a lot for your really helpful advice in the other forum. Well, here I am 🙂
I started running some time back, as a means to lose weight, and have really begun to enjoy it now. I do not run a lot, due to time constraints, but I am fairly consistent, I run 50 – 60 KM per month.
I am trying to build up both my stamina and speed. I can now run 11 K, looking to extend it to half marathon. My 11 K times are in the 65 minute range. I tend to mix up my runs – long run on weekend, shorter and faster runs on weekdays. I try to run 3-4 times a week.
As far as shoes are concerned, I used to run in an Asics. Now, I use Adidas Adizero XL for short runs, and Adidas Boston 11 for the longer runs. Both shoes are great.
In addition, I wear Garmin Forerunner 245.
Generally, I like to run without music.
Would love to chat in this forum.
ABCD, you came! I was nervous about it. It felt like I was asking you out on a date, lol.
That is a lot of great information. Your 65-minute time for an 11k sounds good. I like your plan, too.
Thanks for sharing information about your shoes. I like Saucony, but your shoes sound great, too. I’m just not familiar with them.
No music huh? Good for you. When I started running, I didn’t use music either. Sometimes I mindfully run without music, but I usually use music or a running podcast.
You can definitely lose weight running, but you can’t outrun a bad diet. I have found that diet affects my weight more than exercise. Are you seeing good results?
You might be ready for a half-marathon distance. I remember my first half marathon distance. It was about a year and a half ago. I hadn’t planned to run that distance. I started planning my run the night before. I knew I had a busy morning ahead, but I wanted to do a morning run. I also slept on the trampoline with my daughters. I slept in my running clothes: tank top and running shorts. When I woke up, I took off. I just kept going because I felt so good. I turned around at 6.55 miles and ran home. It felt amazing! I had no idea that I could do that. I think my pace was 11:32 per mile. I am so excited for you to experience the half marathon distance! By the way, after my first summer of running, I learned a lesson about sun protection. My tan lines never fully faded. When spring came along and I still had leftover tan lines from last year’s running, I decided to take sun protection seriously. I wear sun shirts and sun stockings now. I even wear sun gloves. I have naturally pale skin, but I tan easily so tan lines really stand out on me. I don’t like them.
You have a Garmin? I love my Garmin watch! I am addicted to it. I love it, I love it, I love it! Did I mention that I love my watch? I have the Forerunner 955. I wish I would have bought the solar because I have had problems with mine, but my LO has never had a problem with his Solar 955. He bought his a few weeks after I bought mine. Garmin has amazing customer support, so I’m not disappointed in my experience, but I am a little jealous that LO has never called customer support about his watch. REI didn’t have the solar in stock when I bought mine otherwise I would have purchased the solar. Are you on Garmin Connect? I love Garmin Connect! My friend likes Strava, but I’ve never used it so I don’t know if I would like it.
I did 4 miles on the treadmill tonight. My knees feel totally fine. I did it at an 11:06 pace (5.4 mph). It was the recommended run from my Garmin. It felt good. I watched music videos on YouTube instead of looking around at my messy basement. My daughter leaves her toys everywhere.
Tell me more about yourself. I am a housewife with 5 kids. Four of my kids were our foster children who we adopted.
Thanks for meeting me for coffee!
Hi Lovisa. Great to meet you here for coffee. In fact, I am having a real coffee right now.
Yeah, Garmin watches are the best. I have been really pleased with mine. I am on Garmin connect, Strava, and Nike Run club. Feels nice to post ones runs on these apps, plus its great motivation seeing the progress of other runners.
I am seeing decent weight loss results after running, however, my diet part could be better :), working on it right now. I totally agree, diet is probably more important in weight loss than exercise. They are kind of related, as when I know I have a run, I tend to not eat so much.
Great to know that your knees are better. 4 miles in 11 min is too fast, awesome job!
I have SO, with 2 kids. I am working in the industry, in the tech field.
I will try to tackle the half marathon soon. Garmin has a half marathon plan, so I might try that. See you around.
So sorry for the misunderstanding, ABCD. I ran 4 miles at an 11 minute per mile pace. It took 44 minutes. Oh my that would be fast to run 4 miles in 11 minutes. I don’t think humans can do that.
I’m glad you are connecting with other runners in the apps. I’m only on Garmin and I am too shy to connect with anyone. LO3 was my only connection, but he isn’t using Garmin Connect for his current training plan so it’s a ghost town now. He is mindfully training for his 100-mile race. I don’t know if we will reconnect after his race. I’ve thought about connecting to other people, but I kind of don’t want to. I liked when it was just me and him.
Enjoy your real coffee. I hope you have a great day! I will see you soon.
Hi guys,
Shameless third wheel here. 😉 I like to jog. And walk. I call it ‘wog’.
I did a half marathon ages ago before I was married and had children. I was proud of myself for completing it and doing the months of training beforehand, but unfortunately a few weeks prior to the event my left knee got really sore and I barely completed the event.
I was in the best shape of my life when I met my husband and got married. Now,
after thirteen years and three daughters later, I have rekindled my *love* for jogging. No music. No watch. Just me and the pavement around my neighborhood. I started jogging a couple of years ago. I hadn’t done any formal exercising in about a decade. When I jog, it’s usually for 35-40 min at a time. I love my New Balance shoes — good shoes make such a difference.
I wish I could say I see a lot of change in my weight, but I don’t. That’s because I wanna eat what I wanna eat 🙂 But I know internally and cardiovascularly I am much healthier, and my body feels great, too. It helped kick start my libido as well, which has been a nice change of pace for my husband and me.
Earlier this year my husband landed a week in my hospital due to complications of diabetes. It finally motivated him to take care of himself and his diabetes. He’s lost about 40 lbs and looks and feels better than he’s ever felt since we’ve been married. I am enjoying his *hotness*. But he likes kettlebells and jujitsu and stuff like that. Not my thing. And he takes diabetes medication that actually helps him not feel as hungry, so he can’t eat as much. It’s a good regimen for him.
One thing I miss a lot is salsa dancing. I did it for ten years before marrying my husband, whom I knew would not be into it (nor would he let me dance with other men because he’s not that type of guy.) If I could, I would get back into it again. But I won’t because I don’t want to start any issues with my husband.
So, I go wogging instead 😉
Hi Limerent Nurse and Lovisa.
Welcome Limerent Nurse! Great to hear about your “wogging”. I have started to really like running, when I am running, it is just me and the outdoors, post run, I try and do some meditation, it is very therapeutic. I think my running really helped me in my LE, to feel not so bad, God knows how I would have felt without it. I love food too, so I try to have cheat days 1-2 days a week. New Balance shoes are really good, I had a pair many years ago.
I was able to get in a couple of good runs during the holiday weekend, so that felt really good.
Dancing is a great exercise too, I do not have much of a talent for it, though.
Great to know that your husband is feeling much better, and to hear about his exercise regimen. I need to incorporate weights into my training, will do it soon.
Happy running to you both!
Welcome to our coffee house conversation, Limerent Nurse! I’m glad you joined us.
I love how you call your pace wogging. That’s clever. Sorry that you don’t get to go salsa dancing anymore. When I was single I spent a lot of time in dance clubs, too. It is a great workout and so much fun!
Thanks for stopping by!